Discussion School Shootings in America

[CrossroadsCurious]

This whole trend/issue is disgusting and wrong and evil and needs to be stopped!

Another shooting here this week in Texas. Not in the high school older kids, but the younger elementary school kids (neither ok but still, the younger kids, wtf)! :(

The L only wants more background check laws and the R refuses to even talk about doing anything.

Yet the entire problem is not the weapons used... ie guns. Will grant that guns are quicker and can get more possible victims. But take away the guns and we'll be talking about blades or knifes. Take those away and the topic will be blunt objects. Take those away and we'll be down to sticks and rocks. Take those away and we're back to killing with our bare hands. The weapons are not the issue!

This latest shooter had 2 guns and got 1 if them at a legit store doing a background check. Let that sink in...
HE PASSED A BACKGROUND CHECK!

Most of these shooters do because they are also kids and have no criminal records! We need to get into their life and head and figure out why they snapped. AND THEN FIX THESE ISSUES & PROBLEMS!!!

This isn't rocket science. I don't know why this is so hard to understand! This shouldn't be happening! JFC are we as a species this sick and dumb?!?

Seems like it...

 

[YourNeighbor]

The overwhelming number of mentally ill people never go on shooting rampages. Unfettered access to assault weapons destruction is the key, and nothing will change until that does. And despite the visibility of these attacks, mass shootings at schools are just a drop in the bucket of gun violence plaguing this country.

 

[Nolan96]

This country has absolutely lost its mind and so many people are hurting and doing terrible terrible things because of it

I want it to stop but I don't trust anyone to do anything right about it

I know these two recent shootings are a blip on the radar of the world history's violence and pain and death but it still feels significant and like it represents such a deep sickness

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Well at least one benefit of quarantining was that school shootings almost completely went down. Mass shootings in general also decreased though they didn't take long to come back once restrictions began to lift.

I think it's pretty sad that these shootings have been the norm for quite a while and that's probably not going to change anytime soon due to political gridlock. One reason I can't say I fully identify as Republican is because I'm all for more gun control, banning guns, etc, mostly out of fear. I don't give two shits about the 2nd Amendment, or peoples' gun rights. I'd rather they just all be completely illegal for civilians to have like in other countries but I'm willing to admit it's purely because I'm afraid of getting shot by angry randos and I also realize that nobody, least of all Americans, likes having things taken away from them that they used to be allowed to do.

On the other hand, at least if they keep happening, it should make people less likely to want to move here right? How else can we keep getting worse enough to make people want to leave?

 

[ihopethisispainless]

Yet the entire problem is not the weapons used... ie guns. Will grant that guns are quicker and can get more possible victims. But take away the guns and we'll be talking about blades or knifes. Take those away and the topic will be blunt objects. Take those away and we'll be down to sticks and rocks. Take those away and we're back to killing with our bare hands. The weapons are not the issue!

I agree it's so fucking heartbreaking. I can't even begin to imagine any of it. I'll have to respectfully disagree with this point right here tho. I mean, knives are quite obviously much less dangerous that assault rifles right? Yeah humans are always gonna be murderous and tragedies just kinda repeat but it's better of these murderous humans don't have guns.

 

[ab_]

My take:

Conservative Christians will shit on and strip abortion and right to die laws because "muh deaths" but will defend unfettered access to firearms.

I'm not necessarily against guns in general, and the US would do well to look at nations like Austria, Switzerland, Czechia and the Nordic nations who have a relatively high ownership (albeit for sporting and hunting purposes, not self-defense). However these countries also have very effective gun regulation keeping gun crime very low.

Ultimately these people really need shut the hell up about being "pro-life".

 

[Hirokami]

It's depressing how school shootings became so common in the US that it's a meme.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

I'm a liberal democrat and I believe wholly in the 2nd amendment. I believe that guns are not the source of this problem, they are only the means to its end. What needs to start happening is trying to figure out why there are so many angry young men in this country. And if we're being real, it is mostly angry, young ,white men committing most of these heinous acts. Blacks have been shooting their own for quite some time, but over "survival" type issues such as respect, money, drugs, revenge, etc. This phenomena of shooting innocent people in schools, churches, grocery stores, etc. is different. Taking away the guns, and depriving law-abiding citizens of their rights, is just going to foster more resentment in society in the long run. We all have blood on our hands in this. We shun many of these "child killers" in our schools, society in general makes them feel like they have no worth, the opposite rejects them in many cases. Couple all of this with the "alone" nature of the world today, virtual friendships, little real world inner growth experience, not to mention the desensitization to violence from video games, movies, etc. What would any rational person expect would eventually happen? I feel it would be a grave mistake to try and fix this "killing" problem by removing any guns from our society. History tells us that all societies eventually reach a point of government overreach where the citizens will be called upon to "clean house" and take back and revamp their government eventually. The government would like nothing more for the citizens just to lay down their arms. The day will come for this country, maybe in a 100 years, maybe 200 years, maybe next year, for the people to rise up against tyranny, and removing the weapons they have now will only make the job that much harder when the time comes. And it will come. History shows it always comes. The 2nd amendment must be preserved for future peoples of this country. The framers of this country understood this.

 

[ihopethisispainless]

I'm a liberal democrat and I believe wholly in the 2nd amendment. I believe that guns are not the source of this problem, they are only the means to its end. What needs to start happening is trying to figure out why there are so many angry young men in this country. And if we're being real, it is mostly angry, young ,white men committing most of these heinous acts. Blacks have been shooting their own for quite some time, but over "survival" type issues such as respect, money, drugs, revenge, etc. This phenomena of shooting innocent people in schools, churches, grocery stores, etc. is different. Taking away the guns, and depriving law-abiding citizens of their rights, is just going to foster more resentment in society in the long run. We all have blood on our hands in this. We shun many of these "child killers" in our schools, society in general makes them feel like they have no worth, the opposite rejects them in many cases. Couple all of this with the "alone" nature of the world today, virtual friendships, little real world inner growth experience, not to mention the desensitization to violence from video games, movies, etc. What would any rational person expect would eventually happen? I feel it would be a grave mistake to try and fix this "killing" problem by removing any guns from our society. History tells us that all societies eventually reach a point of government overreach where the citizens will be called upon to "clean house" and take back and revamp their government eventually. The government would like nothing more for the citizens just to lay down their arms. The day will come for this country, maybe in a 100 years, maybe 200 years, maybe next year, for the people to rise up against tyranny, and removing the weapons they have now will only make the job that much harder when the time comes. And it will come. History shows it always comes. The 2nd amendment must be preserved for future peoples of this country. The framers of this country understood this.

I'm sorry if this is a lame question. I know this is irrelevant. You seem cool. I'd like to know what a guy like u thinks of monetary policy is that something that the framers really understood or was Keynes right? I believe in the gold standard and a tight monetary policy. How does the fed and their policies make u feel? It angers me. I think we'd have a lot less of a chance of ending up with a tyrannical government with better monetary and fiscal policy than with a 2nd amendment. I do find your arguments very compelling tho. I definitely understand and I'm just very conflicted about my beliefs on gun regulation. I do believe the people should have guns but I also believe in vetting those who purchase them of course. Also, I'm drunk so sorry if I'm embarrassing myself a bit

 

[novem]

This whole trend/issue is disgusting and wrong and evil and needs to be stopped!

Another shooting here this week in Texas. Not in the high school older kids, but the younger elementary school kids (neither ok but still, the younger kids, wtf)! :(

The L only wants more background check laws and the R refuses to even talk about doing anything.

Yet the entire problem is not the weapons used... ie guns. Will grant that guns are quicker and can get more possible victims. But take away the guns and we'll be talking about blades or knifes. Take those away and the topic will be blunt objects. Take those away and we'll be down to sticks and rocks. Take those away and we're back to killing with our bare hands. The weapons are not the issue!

This latest shooter had 2 guns and got 1 if them at a legit store doing a background check. Let that sink in...
HE PASSED A BACKGROUND CHECK!

Most of these shooters do because they are also kids and have no criminal records! We need to get into their life and head and figure out why they snapped. AND THEN FIX THESE ISSUES & PROBLEMS!!!

This isn't rocket science. I don't know why this is so hard to understand! This shouldn't be happening! JFC are we as a species this sick and dumb?!?

Seems like it...

Haha "problem is not the weapons used... ie guns"!
Guns are legal only in USA. School shootings - only in USA. No connection whatsoever, right?

 

[CrossroadsCurious]

Haha "problem is not the weapons used... ie guns"!
Guns are legal only in USA. School shootings - only in USA. No connection whatsoever, right?

Umm yeah so fyi guns are legal in other parts of the world, not just the USA. Get your facts straight mmmkayy...

And yes obviously there is a connection. But my point was that the weapon is interchangeable and ultimately irrelevant when it comes to actually understanding and hopefully stopping these tragedies.

If we magically made all the guns dissapear tomorrow, we'd still have school killings. It wouldn't fix the problem! We need to stop being lazy thinkers who only have tunnel vision and take the time and brain power to pull back and examine the bigger picture of what's actually going on here.

 

[novem]

Umm yeah so fyi guns are legal in other parts of the world, not just the USA. Get your facts straight mmmkayy...

And yes obviously there is a connection. But my point was that the weapon is interchangeable and ultimately irrelevant when it comes to actually understanding and hopefully stopping these tragedies.

If we magically made all the guns dissapear tomorrow, we'd still have school killings. It wouldn't fix the problem! We need to stop being lazy thinkers who only have tunnel vision and take the time and brain power to pull back and examine the bigger picture of what's actually going on here.

If you stop selling guns to general public there will be no school shootings. (You just can't stub 30 pupils to death if this was your next argument.) However Americans will never give up their guns so you get what it entails.

 

[CrossroadsCurious]

If you stop selling guns to general public there will be no school shootings. (You just can't stub 30 pupils to death if this was your next argument.) However Americans will never give up their guns so you get what it entails.

Wrong, cause there's this thing called the blackmarket where criminals can quite freely and illegally get guns. They don't worry about those silly little things called gun laws.

Again, stop with the tunnel vision and actually think for a minute.

PS - If you lock the door behind you, then yes you could unfortunately stab 30+ people to death. :(

 

[novem]

Wrong, cause there's this thing called the blackmarket where criminals can quite freely and illegally get guns. They don't worry about those silly little things called gun laws.

Again, stop with the tunnel vision and actually think for a minute.

PS - If you lock the door behind you, then yes you could unfortunately stab 30+ people to death. :(

ok tell us tunnelvissioned ppl pls what is the reason in your magestic opinion!

 

[CrossroadsCurious]

I don't know the reasons, and that's my point...

We don't really know anything, so we need to dig deeper and really get down to the root of this problem if we are ever going to put an end to it.

 

[Un-]

I swore to myself I wouldn't.. fucking post in this section of the forum. I hate politics and philosophy even more. I don't see this point of view being mentioned though.. I don't necessarily know why I feel the need to mention it but whatever. As a black person who has planned on shooting up his school multiple times, and still thinks about it, there's a couple of reasons.. why someone would be pushed to do that. One of them is attention - the lack of it. It makes you feel disposable. And because other people get attention, you can feel.. like.. people.. hate you. Usually not that far from the truth, to be honest. Most of these people... who do mass killings of any sort, have had horrible experiences with people. Regardless of your belief on people - whether they're horrible, mixed, righteous - these people have felt.. horribly wronged. And they have been, usually. Something strong and personal, repeatedly. From here, it can just spiral.. if people hate you, and don't give two shots about you, why should you care about someone else? Empathy is destroyed.. one thing leads to the next, and then you're pissed off beyond belief when people talk about.. love, loving one another, successful lives, how they love life, and so on - things that have hurt you so much. How the fuck could you love something so evil? I don't know. Something to that effect - an ideology that, when under inspection, makes sense. But because of this bloody idea, it's taken to an extreme.. it's different for different people, I suppose.. in my personal experience, whatever I believe makes me feel unbelievably pissed off when people.. say something contrary. Sort of like they're just not seeing it. That, tied in with misanthropy, and a lack of empathy, would drive anyone, I'd imagine, to kill. I know that if I didn't have this forum, lived in an area where I can access guns, and wasn't depressed, I definitely would have killed some people. I'm not proud of it. I hate talking about it because it disgusts me that.. shit like this is in my head. That's the icing on the cake. I should've mentioned this earlier.. No one in their right mind would say what I've said publicly. Ever. And if it's not discussed, you can only imagine the festering and.. ugh.. that develops. A lot of people shun people that have such beliefs, instead of attempting at reasoning, or understanding. Because at the end of the day, it's usually based on a belief, and we want to be acknowledged and engage with that belief, instead of being unattended to for the rest of our lives. But, depending on where, the moment we say something like this.. it's straight to the police, psych ward, whatever.. just making it far, far worse. I don't know if there's a better preventative measure, because this only encompasses a few culprits. I'm too dumb to think of another solution - I only know what I'd like to happen to me, if I was on the final stages of planning something. I also know that, even though I would have wanted guns or something, they weaponry doesn't matter. Desensitisation, and media doesn't matter. What drives people like us is this.. sense of vengeance against the people, and things that have hurt me so much. If it isn't clear already, no, I'm not planning on murdering anyone. But I know how it feels. I'm not fucking.. saying people should kill. I'm just saying what's probably going through their heads. It's not a political issue, for fucks sakes.
Apologies for any capitalisation, grammar, or punctuation errors.

Edit: I mentioned I'm black because someone said it's.. something about young white men.. I don't know the statistics or whatever, but I mentioned my race because I don't think it has anything to do with it. I couldn't be fucked though - maybe it is. I don't know.

 

[NobodyKnowsMe]

In many of the mass shootings, the weapons were not obtained legally. In the US, it is very easy to get an illegal gun. That is where the crack down really needs to happen. there are many, many people in the US with guns and yet the percentage that are out randomly killing people is incredibly small.

I think overall it is more about the mental health of the folks doing it. Even with all of the social media these days, children are less connected to others and online bullying is very high. When one feels very isolated, they often reset others for it. When one is bullied for being different, or even for just being a loner, they become very angry at others. We went through a few decades of parents over protecting their children, so now kids just flat do not know how to handle any negative emotion. Those negative emotions build up inside until they explode. In many cases, all of that anger turns into an attitude of "Well, I'll show them". We have to figure out how to identify these issues and then figure out how to effectively deal with it.

It has been said that the 2nd Amendment is about protecting ourselves against the possibility of a tyrantical government. I like to think that my guns would also help protect me in the event that those Trump extremists decide to try a true insurrection.

 

[noname223]

Here is my stance on it. It is very similar to the stance that like 90-95% Germans have.
The liberal gun laws are the root of the problem. Personally I am quite convinced about that. Look at Japan and how many shootings they have. There are outliers like Switzerland though. Probably there is a different culture component too. But I am quite sure there were way less mass murderings if the gun laws were stricter.

Some countries have insane peculiarities which are quite irrational. In my country it is the fact that there are often no speed limits on the autobahns. (highways)

It is quite insane what average citizens in the US can buy legally. In my opinion this causes a lot of problems. The American police must be pretty paranoid because everyone could have an assault rifle. I find the notion to defend against the government quite weird. Don't have extremists and gangs the most weapons in the US? They don't seem to the most honest citizens who would defend liberty.

I think it is a cultural thing. It is hard to understand for a foreigner.

 

[NobodyKnowsMe]

Don't have extremists and gangs the most weapons in the US?

In reality, NO. I am nowhere near extreme in any of my views, yet I personally own more than one firearm - rifles and pistols.

There are almost 400 million guns owned by people in America. 32% of the people in the US say they own at least one firearm. The latest estimates, based on a 2021 survey, is that there is at least one gun in roughly 44% of all homes here. This article gives some more statistics: https://americangunfacts.com/gun-ownership-statistics/

 

[noname223]

In reality, NO. I am nowhere near extreme in any of my views, yet I personally own more than one firearm - rifles and pistols.

There are almost 400 million guns owned by people in America. 32% of the people in the US say they own at least one firearm. The latest estimates, based on a 2021 survey, is that there is at least one gun in roughly 44% of all homes here. This article gives some more statistics: https://americangunfacts.com/gun-ownership-statistics/

But wouldn't you say that gangs have a lot of firearms? Maybe too much? Just because you are no extremist my statement is not necessarily false. But maybe it would be better if had done more research. I think the US-discussion is quite insane. So insane that I can't really grasp it. Many people want to give teachers guns. I mean if the police was too afraid to stop the shooter why should the teachers be more brave?

I think I probably sound like a very ignorant German in this discussion. Lol.

 

[NobodyKnowsMe]

But wouldn't you say that gangs have a lot of firearms? Maybe too much?

Most definitely, but they have illegal firearms. Create laws against people owning the guns and the criminals will still have them. I highly doubt that there are no guns at all in countries that have outlawed them -- they are just owned by criminals.

I think it is hard for other countries to understand because their countries do not have the same history of gun ownership that the US has.

Now, granted, we could make things a whole lot safer here by mandating better background checks, including mental health alerts, and mandating yearly training for those that own guns.

 

[TheLastFemaphrodyke]

If you stop selling guns to general public there will be no school shootings. (You just can't stub 30 pupils to death if this was your next argument.) However Americans will never give up their guns so you get what it entails.

Do you REALLY think the CRIMINALS are going to give up their guns? Taking guns away from or preventing law abiding citizens from obtaining guns only creates an entire society that cannot defend itself. If every single person were REQUIRED to take gun safety and concealed carry, then you would never know WHO was carrying. So really, if you were a criminal, which scenario would you rather go commit a crime in, go shoot up a bunch of people in, the one where you KNOW no one has a weapon, or the one where you KNOW ANYONE and EVERYONE may have a weapon to turn on you to protect everyone else and themselves against you, the criminal?

But wouldn't you say that gangs have a lot of firearms? Maybe too much? Just because you are no extremist my statement is not necessarily false. But maybe it would be better if had done more research. I think the US-discussion is quite insane. So insane that I can't really grasp it. Many people want to give teachers guns. I mean if the police was too afraid to stop the shooter why should the teachers be more brave?

I think I probably sound like a very ignorant German in this discussion. Lol.

if you are a criminal, which scenario would you prefer....
A) All citizens have had their guns taken away, can no longer get guns except by illegal means and therefor, most no one, except for criminals, has a gun.
B) All citizens are REQUIRED to take gun safety classes and be certified, whether they choose to own or handle a gun or not, mandatory, period, for everyone. Everyone is allowed to carry concealed guns fro personal and public protection.
If you choose scenario A, you will most likely succeed at the crime at which you are attempting because no one will have a gun, or the courage to stop you. If you choose scenario B, you are taking a huge risk, you have no idea who may have a gun and you already know that EVERYONE knows how to use one, so you must plan better and hope you can commit your crime without getting caught......


Just think about this...take all the time you need.....

 

[Cathy Ames]

If we magically made all the guns dissapear tomorrow, we'd still have school killings. It wouldn't fix the problem! We need to stop being lazy thinkers who only have tunnel vision and take the time and brain power to pull back and examine the bigger picture of what's actually going on here.

I don't advocate for making all of the guns magically disappear, but I'm pretty darned skeptical that there would still be this scale of mass killings in schools if that did happen. I'd imagine that perhaps one of those two teachers might have disarmed that kid, and the school janitor probably would have unlocked that door right away and gone in there. And the police probably would not have been afraid to go into that room right away instead of doing that other thing. Also knifing 21 people to death would likely be tiring and would take a lot longer than shooting them, thus giving the potential victims a chance to escape. I'm sorry, but I simply don't buy the premise that there would still be this scale of mass killings happening with sticks and rocks. That's not logical at all.

 

[TheBroken]

There are things that are right and things that are wrong; however, the reality is that lobbyists control the US not the politicians. Every politician's very existence, programs, pet projects, funding, election, everything ..... is supported by big business and their lobbyists. Now, if citizens promote something that will make something more profitable for companies, then they might have a chance .... nothing else but profit rules. Anyway, if guns didn't exist or weren't accessible the crazies would just go into a school with their damn Ninja sword or whatever they could use to inflict harm and death. Crazies be crazy ......

 

[whatevs]

Regardless of these horrible tragedies, here's something that must not be forgotten as part of the bigger picture when thinking about 'how easy is to obtain firearms in the United States'.

The government needs to respect the populace and that's only achieved if they are armed or at the very least willing to riot severely. Don't ever give up your arms. Some semblance of democracy can only exist if there is an underlying assumption that betraying the public trust or trespassing coercitive boundaries will be met with retaliation.

The rebuttal is normally that armed citizenry could not take on the military. But they don't need to. They only need to be able to defend themselves well enough so that the thugs of the Government think twice about abusing them and the ones with a conscience feel more comfortable turning on the Government if need be.

 

[Feeding Pigeons]

Look at Japan and how many shootings they have.

Thats an extremely unfair comparison considering Japan is mostly filled with Japanese people. It's a lot easier to get people to see eye to eye when they're all from the same place.

 

[Heavenly Pup]

I don't think the government should do anything except punish the Uvalde police department (aka, the government itself) for its cowardice failure.

After every tragedy, the people call on the government to make some emotion-driven sweeping legislation or act somehow. Legislating with emotion doesn't end well. I'm against all gun control out of principle: There's no victim involved in purchasing, possessing, or manufacturing a firearm that probably won't be used for murder anyway. If guns were used by Americans for murder most of the time, there would be very few gun owners because most would be in prison with murder charges. You'll find many gun owners in small-town America, but often very low crime rates in those towns. Most people aren't hellbent on murder just for the fuck of it.

The gun's potential use is irrelevant anyway; there's no reason the law should punish me for purchasing anything through a voluntary transaction (no violence or theft involved). Although guns are designed to kill, whether in murder, hunting, or self-defense, they can be used a million other ways (maybe I just want to look at it in a glass case), again, not that it's relevant. I find every other defense of guns than the one I put forth superfluous, except maybe for a debate's or rebuttal's sake.

Gun control is the government telling its citizens, "Hey, you can't be trusted with that because you're probably gonna use it for murder, you fucking savage," what a sweet way to think of your constituents. Proponents of gun control should also throw away the legal principle of the presumption of innocence while they're at it. If gun control measures were expanded, I sure hope many more Americans would become owners, and more people would start manufacturing them at home. The War on Guns will fail like the War on Drugs in America and rightfully so.

 

[ablmnop]

Regardless of these horrible tragedies, here's something that must not be forgotten as part of the bigger picture when thinking about 'how easy is to obtain firearms in the United States'.

The government needs to respect the populace and that's only achieved if they are armed or at the very least willing to riot severely. Don't ever give up your arms. Some semblance of democracy can only exist if there is an underlying assumption that betraying the public trust or trespassing coercitive boundaries will be met with retaliation.

The rebuttal is normally that armed citizenry could not take on the military. But they don't need to. They only need to be able to defend themselves well enough so that the thugs of the Government think twice about abusing them and the ones with a conscience feel more comfortable turning on the Government if need be.

I'm sorry but this is an absurd position. Your populace is very much being abused. You have many of the worst quality of life outcomes of any developed nation. Much of your nation does not have a living wage or a means to get even the most basic healthcare. A handful of elites control all of the wealth. And parents live in fear of their children being slaughtered en masse when they go to SCHOOL, a place where at the bare minimum, they should be protected, if not a place where they flourish.

Your guns aren't protecting you, at all.

 

[Heavenly Pup]

I'm sorry but this is an absurd position. Your populace is very much being abused. You have many of the worst quality of life outcomes of any developed nation. Much of your nation does not have a living wage or a means to get even the most basic healthcare. A handful of elites control all of the wealth. And parents live in fear of their children being slaughtered en masse when they go to SCHOOL, a place where at the bare minimum, they should be protected, if not a place where they flourish.

Your guns aren't protecting you, at all.

If I recall correctly, the person you're replying to isn't even from the US, and please try avoiding strawmaning by bringing up irrelevant information in order to somehow "refute" his argument.

 

[ablmnop]

If I recall correctly, the person you're replying to isn't even from the US.

That doesn't change the fact that the argument doesn't hold any weight. His point is the armed populace of the US is somehow keeping the government from abusing its citizens. It is very, very much not doing so, but it is allowing a deeply hurt 18 year old to buy thousands of dollars worth of guns and ammo and mass slaughter children. While the police (with guns) wait idly by.

I'm genuinely shocked that anyone could think guns are the solution to any of the US's problems.