Discussion Remember people are watching.

[Vegrau]

Remember people are watching. Who? Well people who want to stop others from killing themselves. The so called pro life people. Also people who loves attentions and those that like to cause confusion. Those who revel in making people Miserables. Those kind of people.

They will spread misinformations to cause doubts. I wouldnt even be surprise if someone is working with officials to monitor this place. I guess everyone knows that by now. So just remember to discern the truth dont just believe everything you were told. They will do anything they can to hinder our search for the peaceful ways to die. Just a reminder that people are watching.

 

[Honigwaffel]

I agree with you that there are some people in here trying to cause confusion and spread misinformation. However that is only a very very small percentage of users. I have found all users I have interacted with on here to be very supportive, informative and helpful.
I think it is important to have a few pro life users in here. It is a pro-choice not a pro-suicide forum.

Of course if you are serious about ctb you should always double check information and do your own research to avoid failing.

 

[Vegrau]

I agree with you that there are some people in here trying to cause confusion and spread misinformation. However that is only a very very small percentage of users. I have found all users I have interacted with on here to be very supportive, informative and helpful.
I think it is important to have a few pro life users in here. It is a pro-choice not a pro-suicide forum.

Of course if you are serious about ctb you should always double check information and do your own research to avoid failing.

Even if they werent trying to spread misinformation they can very well study the way we off ourselves and report back to the officials and hinder our progress.

 

[NoOneKnows]

Remember people are watching. Who? Well people who want to stop others from killing themselves. The so called pro life people. Also people who loves attentions and those that like to cause confusion. Those who revel in making people Miserables. Those kind of people.

They will spread misinformations to cause doubts. I wouldnt even be surprise if someone is working with officials to monitor this place. I guess everyone knows that by now. So just remember to discern the truth dont just believe everything you were told. They will do anything they can to hinder our search for the peaceful ways to die. Just a reminder that people are watching.

100% agree with everything you said there, thank you for caring enough to make us aware

 

[Vegrau]

100% agree with everything you said there, thank you for caring enough to make us aware

Its just inevitable things like this happen. Just doing my part.

 

[Cevapcici]

I recently stumbled across a seemingly nice user whom I added on a messaging app, turns out he is a pro -life person trying to play Superman on the internet, which is great - but it can come off as very ridiculous and inconsiderate, and straight up make things worse, especially if the person is not professionaly trained to deal with suicidal people.

In my case he added me (without prior consultation) in a group chat of... supposedly other suicidal loners he'd met online,and apparently someone he knows irl who's also into taking people out of ctb... Very humiliating, but I'm not mad, since I know it's not coming from a will to hurt, just a very very clumsy and childish will to help out.

 

[Vegrau]

I recently stumbled across a seemingly nice user whom I added on a messaging app, turns out he is a pro -life person trying to play Superman on the internet, which is great - but it can come off as very ridiculous and inconsiderate, and straight up make things worse, especially if the person is not professionaly trained to deal with suicidal people.

In my case he added me (without prior consultation) in a group chat of... supposedly other suicidal loners he'd met online,and apparently someone he knows irl who's also into taking people out of ctb... Very humiliating, but I'm not mad, since I know it's not coming from a will to hurt, just a very very clumsy and childish will to help out.

Well.. the road to hell is paved with good will. They dont really care about people. They care more about what they feel. What they had done. To satisfy their own desire to do "good". Without paying attention to the people theyre trying to help. Without understanding why and what causes it all. Acting as if they know whats best. Is just sickening. Thats what I call selfishly arrogant. I dont buy the whole "good will" bs people keep peddling around. Theres no such thing for me. See if they will do anything good if that good thing put them in disadvantage or hurt them. Unless they have martyr complex. Even that is all about satisfying themselves.

 

[Divine Trinity]

Well.. the road to hell is paved with good will. They dont really care about people. They care more about what they feel. What they had done. To satisfy their own desire to do "good". Without paying attention to the people theyre trying to help. Without understanding why and what causes it all. Acting as if they know whats best. Is just sickening. Thats what I call selfishly arrogant. I dont buy the whole "good will" bs people keep peddling around. Theres no such thing for me. See if they will do anything good if that good thing put them in disadvantage or hurt them. Unless they have martyr complex. Even that is all about satisfying themselves.

Case in point, look at how they treat friends or family who are at a low point. So busy looking at their nose they ignore their own backyard.

I was somewhat like that when I was younger, though I never tricked myself or others into thinking I actually cared.

 

[Macc Lad]

Remember people are watching. Who? Well people who want to stop others from killing themselves. The so called pro life people. Also people who loves attentions and those that like to cause confusion. Those who revel in making people Miserables. Those kind of people.

They will spread misinformations to cause doubts. I wouldnt even be surprise if someone is working with officials to monitor this place. I guess everyone knows that by now. So just remember to discern the truth dont just believe everything you were told. They will do anything they can to hinder our search for the peaceful ways to die. Just a reminder that people are watching.

"The so called pro life people. Also people who loves attentions and those that like to cause confusion. Those who revel in making people Miserables. Those kind of people" .............you talk like they're evil !!!! jesus wept!

 

[Vegrau]

Case in point, look at how they treat friends or family who are at a low point. So busy looking at their nose they ignore their own backyard.

I was somewhat like that when I was younger, though I never tricked myself or others into thinking I actually cared.

Human are inherently selfish. Its better that they accept that fact as soon as possible. So they will stop spouting nonsense, stop deluding themselves and actually start learning how to help others. Rather than forcing their rhetoric or ideas onto the people they want to help they should learn how to fucking listen. Being selfish blinded us to the need of others. Acknowledging it is the first step to truly helping someone. Acknowledge that we are no better than the people we want to help. Humility I wonder if that notion even exist.

Of course in the context that someone actually try to help. Helping someone without feeling good or enjoying or disliking it it. I wonder if that's possible at all. Helping for the sake of helping. Honestly I still really doubt the sincerity and conviction of people that try to help.

"The so called pro life people. Also people who loves attentions and those that like to cause confusion. Those who revel in making people Miserables. Those kind of people" .............you talk like they're evil !!!! jesus wept!

So people spreading misinformations causing confusion and making people miserables are not evil? Or were you being sarcastic?

 

[Divine Trinity]

Human are inherently selfish. Its better that they accept that fact as soon as possible. So they will stop spouting nonsense, stop deluding themselves and actually start learning how to help others. Rather than forcing their rhetoric or ideas onto the people they want to help they should learn how to fucking listen. Being selfish blinded us to the need of others. Acknowledging it is the first step to truly helping someone. Acknowledge that we are no better than the people we want to help. Humility I wonder if that notion even exist.

Of course in the context that someone actually try to help. Helping someone without feeling good or enjoying or disliking it it. I wonder if that's possible at all. Helping for the sake of helping. Honestly I still really doubt the sincerity and conviction of people that try to help.

I disagree with the human nature argument. If there is a human nature, it's that our behavior is largely determined by the culture we're raised in, and the people we interact with. Of course there's survival instincts and biological factors too (birth defects, disease, disability, etc.)

The point about elitist volunteerism I agree with, but I'd go further in that it should be the group of people who decide how to solve their problems. If others want to help, they can provide resources or help organize that group. But thinking you know better than the person on how to solve their problems is asinine, elitist, and egotistical.

... So they will stop spouting nonsense, stop deluding themselves and actually start learning how to help others. Rather than forcing their rhetoric or ideas onto the people they want to help they should learn how to fucking listen. Being selfish blinded us to the need of others. Acknowledging it is the first step to truly helping someone. Acknowledge that we are no better than the people we want to help. Humility I wonder if that notion even exist...
... Helping someone without feeling good or enjoying or disliking it it. I wonder if that's possible at all. Helping for the sake of helping. Honestly I still really doubt the sincerity and conviction of people that try to help.

Those people exist, but they're always marginalized and rejected from society while they're alive. People like Hedges are the only reason I haven't ctb yet. "I don't fight fascist because I'll win, I fight fascist because they are fascist."

 

[Vegrau]

I disagree with the human nature argument. If there is a human nature, it's that our behavior is largely determined by the culture we're raised in, and the people we interact with. Of course there's survival instincts and biological factors too (birth defects, disease, disability, etc.)

The point about elitist volunteerism I agree with, but I'd go further in that it should be the group of people who decide how to solve their problems. If others want to help, they can provide resources or help organize that group. But thinking you know better than the person on how to solve their problems is asinine, elitist, and egotistical.

Well its instinct whether we like it or not. Everything human do its for themselves and themselves alone whether they realize it or not. Helping someone so they feel good. Bonding with someone because we dont want to be alone. Everything can be trace back to our own desire. Theres no sugarcoating it. Selfishness is part of human nature. Part of survival instinct.

When we talked about selfishness we are talking about deep self reflection. To know ourselves and the reasons also the consequences of our own actions. To try understand it all.

Not really group are made out of individuals. No matter how you organize it it will still be 1 to 1 most of the time. Moreover depend on the person and the problems theyre facing group wont work as well as 1 to 1. Because of privacy concern, anxiety, avoidance symptoms, etc. Like you said thinking we know how to solve someone's problems is arrogant. The best way is to listen and try to understand them. No other way around it.

And herein lies the problems. Does the person have the conviction to see it through the end and not abandon it midway? The conviction to keep their word to help? This is what I meant when I said I doubt their sincerity and conviction. Most if not all people try to help out of selfishness. Out of self satisfaction(or money) and will quit way too easily due to frustration, resentment, etc. Hurting the person they try to help.

If people try to help someone so they can satisfy themselves its a guarantee failure. Thats why we cannot help anyone if we do it out of selfishness. That's why I dont buy those good will bs. They should just admit their motive and stop lying.

 

[Divine Trinity]

I'd encourage you to watch the link. I understand what you're talking about, and to a degree you're right. But there are instances where people will commit self sacrifice, I don't mean trivial sacrifices. I mean things like mothers selling themselves to slavery so their daughters don't have to, a stranger shielding a child from sniper fire by state death squads eliminating any chance of escaping without harm, a soldier (I detest military) jumping in front of a grenade to shield his squad from the blast.

These aren't rare cases. Really it comes down to how you define people and individuals.

I don't believe in the good vs evil dogma, or the "everything is gray" pseudo-intellectual dog shit. Slow down and think about these things, it most definitely won't make you rich, happy, or have a lot of friends (the exact opposite). But you can at least appreciate the complexity of the world, and just how small we really are.

 

[Vegrau]

I'd encourage you to watch the link. I understand what you're talking about, and to a degree you're right. But there are instances where people will commit self sacrifice, I don't mean trivial sacrifices. I mean things like mothers selling themselves to slavery so their daughters don't have to, a stranger shielding a child from sniper fire by state death squads eliminating any chance of escaping without harm, a soldier (I detest military) jumping in front of a grenade to shield his squad from the blast.

These aren't rare cases. Really it comes down to how you define people and individuals.

Hahaha yes that is it. The pure sacrifice out of instinct and split second decision. I am not denying it existence. They don't have time to think they just acted accordingly. That showed the purity of their intention and motive. Even so their actions are not exempt from selfishness you see.. are they not happy that they save those people? Are they not satisfy with the choices they had made? Are they not at peace with their decisions? Selfishness are not inherently evil its just depend on where you use it on, how you use it, when you use it, whether you understand it or not, can control it or not. And those things. Those criteria define an individuals. Knowledge and understanding regarding the matter. Thats what separate them from those half ass liars I detest so much.

So either they show that passion which they can throw away their life for the people they want to help or show the depth of their knowledge and understanding towards the problems and the person they want to help or they show the eagerness and passion through their action and fulfillment their own promises for the person they want to help. Other than those thing I wont buy into it. I wont settle for anything less. Anything less than that are nothing but lies.

I dont detest military. I just find them silly. Dying for the rich and powerful that profited from their sacrificed. While making them think they had done great service for their country is simply sad.

 

[Cevapcici]

Well.. the road to hell is paved with good will. They dont really care about people. They care more about what they feel. What they had done. To satisfy their own desire to do "good". Without paying attention to the people theyre trying to help. Without understanding why and what causes it all. Acting as if they know whats best. Is just sickening. Thats what I call selfishly arrogant. I dont buy the whole "good will" bs people keep peddling around. Theres no such thing for me. See if they will do anything good if that good thing put them in disadvantage or hurt them. Unless they have martyr complex. Even that is all about satisfying themselves.

Well, I'm not so quick to judge them, and I highly disagree with the quote "the road to hell is paved with good will", because whilst the outcome is the same, the feeling left is totally different. There's a difference to being hurt by someone who doesn't realise what they're doing and being hurt by someone who hurts you on purpose because they can, just to excerce their dominance on you. It leaves a totally different stain. When you're harmed by someone who at least tried to help you, well, you brush it off easily if you're a patient person.

Im convinced the road to hell is paved with indifference - I'm pretty sure we all have experienced it - that heartless, disgusting someone who had power over you, and could have shown you understanding and mercy, clemency but didn't care enough to do so, they didn't care if they could have avoided to inflict misery on another human being. I wouldn't be where I am now if I was met with a little less indifference by the people who in fact , could have helped me back then.

Edit: grammar

 

[Divine Trinity]

Hahaha yes that is it. The pure sacrifice out of instinct and split second decision. I am not denying it existence. They don't have time to think they just acted accordingly. That showed the purity of their intention and motive. Even so their actions are not exempt from selfishness you see.. are they not happy that they save those people? Are they not satisfy with the choices they had made? Are they not at peace with their decisions? Selfishness are not inherently evil its just depend on where you use it on, how you use it, when you use it, whether you understand it or not, can control it or not. And those things. Those criteria define an individuals. Knowledge and understanding regarding the matter. Thats what separate them from those half ass liars I detest so much.

So either they show that passion which they can throw away their life for the people they want to help or show the depth of their knowledge and understanding towards the problems and the person they want to help or they show the eagerness and passion through their action and fulfillment their own promises for the person they want to help. Other than those thing I wont buy into it. I wont settle for anything less. Anything less than that are nothing but lies.

I dont detest military. I just find them silly. Dying for the rich and powerful that profited from their sacrificed. While making them think they had done great service for their country is simply sad.

I detest the institution itself, not necessarily the cogs in the machine. The US military is complicated, and I think most misunderstand its function, even the supposed anti-war people.

We seem to see eye-to-eye on this for the most part. I just don't think a narcissist's selfishness and an activist's selfishness can be conflated together. Or rather that there's a difference between selfish and self-interest. Without the distinction the word is meaningless.

Sounds like you just don't like disingenuous people, the opposite of being disingenuous is having principles. Most are just ignorant of their own hypocracy, some are scheming slime balls.

 

[Vegrau]

Well, I'm not so quick to judge them, and I highly disagree with the quote "the road to hell is paved with good will", because whilst the outcome is the same, the feeling left is totally different. There's a difference to being hurt by someone who doesn't realise what they're doing and being hurt by someone who hurts you on purpose because they can, just to excerce their dominance on you. It leaves a totally different stain. When you're harmed by someone who at least tried to help you, well, you brush it off easily if you're a patient person.

Im convinced the road to hell is paved with indifference - I'm pretty sure we all have experienced it - that heartless, disgusting someone who had power over you, and could have shown you understanding and mercy, clemency but didn't care enough to do so, they didn't care if they could have avoided to inflict misery on an another human being. I wouldn't be where I am now if I was met with a little less indifference by the people who in fact , could have helped me back then.

Hahaha to me theres no difference.. To do something without understanding the matter. Without knowing what you're getting into. Saying things you can never live up to. That is reckless and stupid. Thats irresponsible and idiotic. Those kind of stupid shit are what I despise the most. Drive me absolutely furious. Hiding behind their idiocy will not exempt them from the result of their actions. Idiocy is not an excuse. Ineptitude is not an excuse. I dont need to pay for their mistakes and I wont be their guinea pig so they can learn. They should learn by listening to others. Learn by being a decent human being with a brain. Not charging into a matter using only their passion like some brainless fucktard they are. I have seen so many in my life I have had enough of their lies. Always on and on about I want to listen I want to help then disappear into god knows where. Those people that gain your trust that broke it. No they're not forgivable.

I respect the people that try to hurt me on purpose more than those liars. At least those people made their intention clear and I respect that kind of honesty.

Well things about indifference. I think you just described most of the people in the world. People are apathetic and indifference towards one another. At the same time theyre not oblige to help anyone if they dont want to to. The keyword here is making them want to. I dont expect other to help me. But I can strike a deal so they will. Human relationship are all about give and take. What you can give and what other want. What other can provide and what you need. Its purely business. Emotional connections are luxury.

 

[Divine Trinity]

Hahaha to me theres no difference.. To do something without understanding the matter. Without knowing what you're getting into. Saying things you can never live up to. That is reckless and stupid. Thats irresponsible and idiotic. Those kind of stupid shit are what I despise the most. Drive me absolutely furious. Hiding behind their idiocy will not exempt them from the result of their actions. Idiocy is not an excuse. Ineptitude is not an excuse. I dont need to pay for their mistakes and I wont be their guinea pig so they can learn. They should learn by listening to others. Learn by being a decent human being with a brain. Not charging into a matter using only their passion like some brainless fucktard they are. I have seen so many in my life I have had enough of their lies. Always on and on about I want to listen I want to help then disappear into god knows where. Those people that gain your trust that broke it. No they're not forgivable.

I respect the people that try to hurt me on purpose more than those liars. At least those people made their intention clear and I respect that kind of honesty."

You're able to brace for malicious attacks. It's when people don't try that hurts the most because you know that's what they sincerely think/feel. Hence how a child can drive a stake into the coldest of hearts.

Unfortunately we're only human, we can only learn from our mistakes. Capitalist society's by nature of the toxic hyper-competitive culture, structurally punishes failure, thus human development.

Well, I'll be off, here I was looking to research hanging methods today and I end up having a fun discussion.

 

[Vegrau]

I detest the institution itself, not necessarily the cogs in the machine. The US military is complicated, and I think most misunderstand its function, even the supposed anti-war people.

We seem to see eye-to-eye on this for the most part. I just don't think a narcissist's selfishness and an activist's selfishness can be conflated together. Or rather that there's a difference between selfish and self-interest. Without the distinction the word is meaningless.

Sounds like you just don't like disingenuous people, the opposite of being disingenuous is having principles. Most are just ignorant of their own hypocracy, some are scheming slime balls.

Hahahaha bingo. Yes I despise disingenuous people. Oohohoo words can even began to describe the depth of my rage and hatred for them. Whether they realize it or not makes no difference to me. Their stupidity and idiocy will not exempt them from the mistakes they had committed. Where is justice if idiocy can be an excuse? So no one have to face the consequences of their own action because they're too stupid to think ahead? Ignorant is not an excuse unless youre limited by the resources or education or disabilities.

Well selfishness are self interest. To me there are no difference between those two. Imagine this scenario. Will you save the one you love or the some stranger you have never met before? At that moment both words mean the same thing. We do things for our own gain for our own desire for ourselves. Sugar coat it as you may. The nature of it will never change. Selfishness and self interest are all about safe guarding our own satisfaction and personal want. To make decision best suited for ourselves. Its better we acknowledge that sooner than later.

For me I detest both the institution and people who enable it to continue. Whether those people are inside the said institution or outside of it. None of them are innocent.

Ignorance can no longer be use as an excuse in this time and age. Unless theyre limited by resources/education or disabilities.

The world are in this state because majority just leave it as it is. Feigning ignorance acting as if everything is just fine. Not doing more to change it. Because it doesnt have any immediate impact to their everyday lives. The status quo is enough for them. They just ignore everything and embrace the false sense of peace. Then when something happened they have the audacity to act all surprised. Like they didnt knew about it. Holy f its disgusting. Well I too am guilty as charge. I did nothing but watch as the world falls apart around me. To me though its their just desert. The consequences of their actions. I wont stop it. Why should I rob them of their chance to learn from their mistake? But being guilty doesnt mean I cant say anything about it hahaha.

You're able to brace for malicious attacks. It's when people don't try that hurts the most because you know that's what they sincerely think/feel. Hence how a child can drive a stake into the coldest of hearts.

Unfortunately we're only human, we can only learn from our mistakes. Capitalist society's by nature of the toxic hyper-competitive culture, structurally punishes failure, thus human development.

Well, I'll be off, here I was looking to research hanging methods today and I end up having a fun discussion.

Thats why dont trust anyone too easily. Through trials and errors will we see their true colors. And such is the price that we have to pay for trust. You trust someone then be ready to get hurt.

Nope we dont. We have history books to learn from. We have so many example form all walks of life to learn from. Saying we can only learn from mistakes is kind of irresponsible.

Well honestly I dont really enjoy discussing this particular subject. Even though I enjoy the argument. It disrupt my peace because I get too passionate about it. Still I had to say something. Even though I had to remember how dirty and filthy the world is. I really dont want to carry these kind feelings anymore. Not worth it no. For this kind of world never will it ever be worth it.

 

[Divine Trinity]

Where is justice if idiocy can be an excuse? So no one have to face the consequences of their own action because they're too stupid to think ahead? Ignorant is not an excuse unless youre limited by the resources or education or disabilities.


Well selfishness are self interest. To me there are no difference between those two. Imagine this scenario. Will you save the one you love or the some stranger you have never met before? At that moment both words mean the same thing. We do things for our own gain for our own desire for ourselves. Sugar coat it as you may. The nature of it will never change. Selfishness and self interest are all about safe guarding our own satisfaction and personal want. To make decision best suited for ourselves. Its better we acknowledge that sooner than later
...For me I detest both the institution and people who enable it to continue. Whether those people are inside the said institution or outside of it. None of them are innocent.

...Ignorance can no longer be use as an excuse in this time and age. Unless theyre limited by resources/education or disabilities.

It's by understanding that there's a limit to human cognitive ability that I stopped being fustrated with the way things are. I'm not a christian, but Jesus says something along the lines of "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do." The well-meaning fool shouldn't recieve the same scorn as the malicious fraud.

Justice is such a toxic and ineffective belief system. By definition expectation =/= reality, it's an ideology of fustration, and suffering.

The puppet from Hollywood is right:

 

[Vegrau]

It's by understanding that there's a limit to human cognitive ability that I stopped being fustrated with the way things are. I'm not a christian, but Jesus says something along the lines of "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do." The well-meaning fool shouldn't recieve the same scorn as the malicious fraud.

Justice is such a toxic and ineffective belief system. By definition expectation =/= reality, it's an ideology of fustration, and suffering.

The puppet from Hollywood is right:

I understand there is limit thats why I said unless theyre limited by resources/education or disabilities. People that are not limited by those things have no excuses. None at fucking all.

I know youre trying to be nice to everyone baby them and stuff like that. But here in reality it doesnt work that way. It just doesnt work.. no matter how we want it to be. Humanity is abhorrently disgusting yet also so very beautiful. The possibilities they hold and the achievements they have are as bright as the stars yet eclipse by their own weakness they will never take flight. Those things you said I know it better than you think. I wept and I mourn. I hate and rage. I like and I despise them so very much. I believe they can be so much better. I know they can. Yet their petty squabbles, delusions and madness leave little to desire. I spent half of my life watching, learning and thinking about them. I know.

The well meaning fools still have to face the consequences. How you look at them makes no difference. Touch the flame and you will be burn. Breath in water and you will drown. Well meaning or just being idiot. Do not and will never exempt anyone from consequences. So a fool set of a bunch of firework in a club and burn down the whole place. Causing death and suffering should not be prosecuted? Just because he is stupid and didnt bear any ill intention? Or a father showing his toddler how to use fire arms or leaving the firearm unattended causing harm and death? Anti vaccination that lead to death and suffering of others? Company being negligence causing workers death? So no consequences for them? What a load of bs lol. Hahahaha no wonder the world is in this state. We just keep letting idiots being idiots.

Remember the only thing that set humanity above other creatures. Is their ability to think and to learn. We have the library of human history on our palm. We have so many examples to learn from. Those who do not learn from history are doom to repeat it. Ignorance is not a virtue. Indifference is not an excuse to avoid learning anything at all. I cant believe I am hearing this.

 

[Divine Trinity]

I understand there is limit thats why I said unless theyre limited by resources/education or disabilities. People that are not limited by those things have no excuses. None at fucking all.

I know youre trying to be nice to everyone baby them and stuff like that. But here in reality it doesnt work that way. It just doesnt work.. no matter how we want it to be. Humanity is abhorrently disgusting yet also so very beautiful. The possibilities they hold and the achievements they have are as bright as the stars yet eclipse by their own weakness they will never take flight. Those things you said I know it better than you think. I wept and I mourn. I hate and rage. I like and I despise them so very much. I believe they can be so much better. I know they can. Yet their petty squabbles, delusions and madness leave little to desire. I spent half of my life watching, learning and thinking about them. I know.

The well meaning fools still have to face the consequences. How you look at them makes no difference. Touch the flame and you will be burn. Breath in water and you will drown. Well meaning or just being idiot. Do not and will never exempt anyone from consequences. So a fool set of a bunch of firework in a club and burn down the whole place. Causing death and suffering should not be prosecuted? Just because he is stupid and didnt bear any ill intention? Or a father showing his toddler how to use fire arms or leaving the firearm unattended causing harm and death? Anti vaccination that lead to death and suffering of others? Company being negligence causing workers death? So no consequences for them? What a load of bs lol. Hahahaha no wonder the world is in this state. We just keep letting idiots being idiots.

Remember the only thing that set humanity above other creatures. Is their ability to think and to learn. We have the library of human history on our palm. We have so many examples to learn from. Those who do not learn from history are doom to repeat it. Ignorance is not a virtue. Indifference is not an excuse to avoid learning anything at all. I cant believe I am hearing this.

Does retribution bring back the dead? Does it make anyone feel better? Does it prevent these same actions from happening again? No. Addressing the symptom of a problem doesn't help anyone except bankers. We have very strict laws(for the poor at least), and highest incarceration rate in the world.

Let's see: infant mortality is up, wealthy inequality highest in country's history, average life span down, suicide rates up, drug addiction up, chronic disease worst in human history, climate change accelerated, A cult leader is head of government, national infrastructure given a rating of D+, diseases common in impoverished countries are increasing, military actively bombing 9 countries, US believed to be the greatest threat to world peace, government is a plutocracy, 100 men have more wealth than over half the global population, we're living in the 6th mass extinction event, etc. etc.

If you can convince me that locking people in cages will solve any of these issues I'll fucking tattoo a picture of your face on the middle of my chest...

If humans are above nature why are suicides rates positively correlated with rich industrialized countries? Why do cancer and heart disease rates explode whenever a state shifts from agrarian society to industrial? Why does 70% of modern drugs come from plants in the Amazon? Nature isn't a pyramid shaped hierarchy, it's a web. Anything on that web disappears and the whole ecosystem collapses. Except us.

Homo S. Sapiens appeared 200k years ago, civilization 10k years ago, capitalism 400 years ago, industrialization 150 years ago. Our perception of anything, even relative to our own existence is a drop in a very large bucket.

It's not about coddling anyone, it's learning from past mistakes. Retribution is a failed system, move on and try something new. And for the record, like I already said, most people are poor. Meaning they don't have limitless resources or time to actually study. What does blaming systemic problems on individuals accomplish? These are genuine questions.
Edit: Diseases commonly found* in impoverished countries are increasing [here].

 

[Vegrau]

Does retribution bring back the dead? Does it make anyone feel better? Does it prevent these same actions from happening again? No. Addressing the symptom of a problem doesn't help anyone except bankers. We have very strict laws(for the poor at least), and highest incarceration rate in the world.

Let's see: infant mortality is up, wealthy inequality highest in country's history, average life span down, suicide rates up, drug addiction up, chronic disease worst in human history, climate change accelerated, A cult leader is head of government, national infrastructure given a rating of D+, diseases common in impoverished countries are increasing, military actively bombing 9 countries, US believed to be the greatest threat to world peace, government is a plutocracy, 100 men have more wealth than over half the global population, we're living in the 6th mass extinction event, etc. etc.

If you can convince me that locking people in cages will solve any of these issues I'll fucking tattoo a picture of your face on the middle of my chest...

If humans are above nature why are suicides rates positively correlated with rich industrialized countries? Why do cancer and heart disease rates explode whenever a state shifts from agrarian society to industrial? Why does 70% of modern drugs come from plants in the Amazon? Nature isn't a pyramid shaped hierarchy, it's a web. Anything on that web disappears and the whole ecosystem collapses. Except us.

Homo S. Sapiens appeared 200k years ago, civilization 10k years ago, capitalism 400 years ago, industrialization 150 years ago. Our perception of anything, even relative to our own existence is a drop in a very large bucket.

It's not about coddling anyone, it's learning from past mistakes. Retribution is a failed system, move on and try something new. And for the record, like I already said, most people are poor. Meaning they don't have limitless resources or time to actually study. What does blaming systemic problems on individuals accomplish? These are genuine questions.
Edit: Diseases commonly found* in impoverished countries are increasing [here].

Hahahahaha... Ohhh I thoroughly enjoy this.. hahaha.. you dont get it. Never once I talk about prison. Never once I touched about retribution. You are arguing on your own here.. imagining your own enemy and point of argument. Dont lump my justice with those false one. Dont insult me like that lol. Those kangaroo court. Those childish theatrics. Those inept, illogical and silly laws that bend to whomever have the most papers and "power". No those people dont know what true justice is.

To reap what you sow. Cause and effect. Following the inevitable course of causality. True justice can only be found by tracing the events to its roots from whence it came. To understand the cause. To see the ripple. To know the reasons. To understand it all. That is the true justice. Not vengeance. Not rage. Not hatred. Simply the desire for fairness. Do you get it? If you dont understand my words then its better we stop. I wont waste my time arguing with people that doesnt understand. I wont waste my time explain everything.

Do you not wish everyone to be treated equally? Do you not wish the wicked be punish? Those who trample over others. Hurting them. Murdering them. Just for quick profit. For quick satisfaction. Do you not want justice and fairness for the victims? So we should let those murderers walk away because punishing them wont bring the victim back to life after all? Can you convince the living to let it go? Can you guarantee the murderer wont kill again? Can you bear the weight of that decision? Can you bear the weight of the world? Its easy to say anything we want when the thing doesn't affect us.

The people that died wont return. But the living still here. Reap what you sow. Cause and effect. The consequences cannot be stop. The best we can do it see to it justly and fairly. Justice is logic. Justice is to learn and understand why it happened and how. Also acknowledge the result of said actions. The effect it have on the living. To reach an understanding between all the party involve. So everyone can live with it. If you cant even understand that there's no point for me to continue.

Also we are arguing about justice. Dont stray from the topic. Justice doesnt apply to individual but to the whole system. Everything and everyone within the cycle of causality. No one will be exempt. Not me not you. We all must face our reckoning. Result of our life's actions. That is the true justice and fairness.

Fyi I am against prison. Also those inequality and stuff you keep talking about happened because theres no justice. Rich and powerful just keep getting away with the shits they did. No one holding them accountable and that is just not fair.

Prison stupid and pointless. Its better to use those people as workforce. Of course only if theyre guilty. I will not allow injustice in any shape or form. Thats true justice. My justice. Get it? Lofty I know but I wont settle for anything less. Fairness and justice above all.

 

[Marawa]

I'm far more concerned with what I believe might be sister sites ( correct if I'm wrong mods) or other sites that appear to link here and monitor the activity here.
I've run into 2 straight up scammers I ran into one I think other members ran away who was offering meds and another that even at my age 51, seemed to be playing suicidal who become inappropriately start trying to lure you into sexual conversation. I can only imagine what that must like for the more vulnerable young ladies and gentlemen.
While it maybe my own fault for giving out my Google hangouts name to make one on chat, I don't think those users were appropriate.
I've found a lot of support here which I hope is getting me to recover though I feel I'm at that point yet. But there are some predators.

 

[Divine Trinity]

Hahahahaha... Ohhh I thoroughly enjoy this.. hahaha.. you dont get it. Never once I talk about prison. Never once I touched about retribution. You are arguing on your own here.. imagining your own enemy and point of argument. Dont lump my justice with those false one. Dont insult me like that lol. Those kangaroo court. Those childish theatrics. Those inept, illogical and silly laws that bend to whomever have the most papers and "power". No those people dont know what true justice is.

To reap what you sow. Cause and effect. Following the inevitable course of causality. True justice can only be found by tracing the events to its roots from whence it came. To understand the cause. To see the ripple. To know the reasons. To understand it all. That is the true justice. Not vengeance. Not rage. Not hatred. Simply the desire for fairness. Do you get it? If you dont understand my words then its better we stop. I wont waste my time arguing with people that doesnt understand. I wont waste my time explain everything.

Do you not wish everyone to be treated equally? Do you not wish the wicked be punish? Those who trample over others. Hurting them. Murdering them. Just for quick profit. For quick satisfaction. Do you not want justice and fairness for the victims? So we should let those murderers walk away because punishing them wont bring the victim back to life after all? Can you convince the living to let it go? Can you guarantee the murderer wont kill again? Can you bear the weight of that decision? Can you bear the weight of the world? Its easy to say anything we want when the thing doesn't affect us.

The people that died wont return. But the living still here. Reap what you sow. Cause and effect. The consequences cannot be stop. The best we can do it see to it justly and fairly. Justice is logic. Justice is to learn and understand why it happened and how. Also acknowledge the result of said actions. The effect it have on the living. To reach an understanding between all the party involve. So everyone can live with it. If you cant even understand that there's no point for me to continue.

Also we are arguing about justice. Dont stray from the topic. Justice doesnt apply to individual but to the whole system. Everything and everyone within the cycle of causality. No one will be exempt. Not me not you. We all must face our reckoning. Result of our life's actions. That is the true justice and fairness.

Fyi I am against prison. Also those inequality and stuff you keep talking about happened because theres no justice. Rich and powerful just keep getting away with the shits they did. No one holding them accountable and that is just not fair.

Prison stupid and pointless. Its better to use those people as workforce. Of course only if theyre guilty. I will not allow injustice in any shape or form. Thats true justice. My justice. Get it? Lofty I know but I wont settle for anything less. Fairness and justice above all.

I suppose I don't disagree, though I don't call it justice. If you're trying to say justice is natural consequence, those are very different concepts. I'll admit I haven't thought much about natural consequence, seeing how here, you can be sent to jail for jaywalking and sentencing minors to execution wasn't banned until 10 years ago or so (heavily resisted).

Justice starts with the claim that someone has been wronged, and that people have the ability to choose their actions. I fundamentally disagree with the first, scientific theory in various fields have a contrary conclusion to the second. Like I've said, by it's definition justice is not based on reality, and anything that's not based on reality is fantasy. That's the way I see it, though you may disagree.

I don't believe in "wicked" people. I believe people are capable of doing good or bad things, depending on the environment and values they are raised in/with. I know if I or anyone else lived in their conditions, we'd be the exact same as the most infamous of people.

We seem to keep skirting around the elephant in the room if you haven't noticed.

 

[Vegrau]

I suppose I don't disagree, though I don't call it justice. If you're trying to say justice is natural consequence, those are very different concepts. I'll admit I haven't thought much about natural consequence, seeing how here, you can be sent to jail for jaywalking and sentencing minors to execution wasn't banned until 10 years ago or so (heavily resisted).

Justice starts with the claim that someone has been wronged, and that people have the ability to choose their actions. I fundamentally disagree with the first, scientific theory in various fields have a contrary conclusion to the second. Like I've said, by it's definition justice is not based on reality, and anything that's not based on reality is fantasy. That's the way I see it, though you may disagree.

I don't believe in "wicked" people. I believe people are capable of doing good or bad things, depending on the environment and values they are raised in/with. I know if I or anyone else lived in their conditions, we'd be the exact same as the most infamous of people.

We seem to keep skirting around the elephant in the room if you haven't noticed.

P.s I can give it any name I want. I dont think I have to follow your notion though. Why should I? Thats also why I said if you dont understand just leave I really dont want to waste my time and effort trying to make you understand. I dont need to I dont want to either. Also its good youre starting to understand. What youre saying is Causality. Do you understand causality though? The cause and effect? The result and consequences. That is the true justice. I dont think you get it. Anyway We are not talking about silly man made notion anymore. So you can let the 10 years prison thing to rest. Really thats getting old and not making much sense at this point.

and also is racism right? Is murder right? or are you implying that its simply something we cannot control so we just let it be? Youre not answering any of my questions. So to me youre the one avoiding the elephant in the room. Take a stance. Choose a side. be real and reasonable. Are people not wronged by racism, homophobia, etc? So those people deserves it? Please stay grounded in reality. Honestly I feel like I am talking to someone thats insane thinking the world have no bad guy and no one need to answer for their behavior. Please stop fantasizing that everyone is good. Rules of probability already prove you wrong. Its surreal someone like you even exist in this kind of world.. then again you must have lead a good life to be able to come to that conclusion. Sheltered life do that to people... I cant blame you for that but that cant stop me from being disgusted by you. You brush away all those inequality and suffering of others just like that. As if it was nothing. I am truly really disgusted by that.

Drop the act you said it yourself earlier that inequality is bad and now youre saying inequality is inevitable and we have to live with it because if we live the same life as them we will do the same bad thing. But you didnt answer my questions should we let the inequality continue? You cant even answer any one of my questions. So just leave it.. you have been dodging and I am bored already.

I am not your "playmate" I dont have to entertain you. You dont worth the effort at this point in all honesty no one does. I stick around only because I thought you might be interesting. I know youre the idealistic type that wanting the world to come together and sing kumbaya and everyone are friend with rainbows,frilly unicorns and love everywhere. I understand that and I respect your view. But reality doesnt work like that and I dont want to touch that.

 

[Divine Trinity]

P.s I can give it any name I want. I dont think I have to follow your notion though. Why should I? Thats also why I said if you dont understand just leave I really dont want to waste my time and effort trying to make you understand. I dont need to I dont want to either. Also its good youre starting to understand. What youre saying is Causality. Do you understand causality though? The cause and effect? The result and consequences. That is the true justice. I dont think you get it. Anyway We are not talking about silly man made notion anymore. So you can let the 10 years prison thing to rest. Really thats getting old and not making much sense at this point.

and also is racism right? Is murder right? or are you implying that its simply something we cannot control so we just let it be? Youre not answering any of my questions. So to me youre the one avoiding the elephant in the room. Take a stance. Choose a side. be real and reasonable. Are people not wronged by racism, homophobia, etc? So those people deserves it? Please stay grounded in reality. Honestly I feel like I am talking to someone thats insane thinking the world have no bad guy and no one need to answer for their behavior. Please stop fantasizing that everyone is good. Rules of probability already prove you wrong. Its surreal someone like you even exist in this kind of world.. then again you must have lead a good life to be able to come to that conclusion. Sheltered life do that to people... I cant blame you for that but that cant stop me from being disgusted by you. You brush away all those inequality and suffering of others just like that. As if it was nothing. I am truly really disgusted by that.

Drop the act you said it yourself earlier that inequality is bad and now youre saying inequality is inevitable and we have to live with it because if we live the same life as them we will do the same bad thing. But you didnt answer my questions should we let the inequality continue? You cant even answer any one of my questions. So just leave it.. you have been dodging and I am bored already.

I am not your "playmate" I dont have to entertain you. You dont worth the effort at this point in all honesty no one does. I stick around only because I thought you might be interesting. I know youre the idealistic type that wanting the world to come together and sing kumbaya and everyone are friend with rainbows,frilly unicorns and love everywhere. I understand that and I respect your view. But reality doesnt work like that and I dont want to touch that.

if you consider being homeless for 2 years sheltered then sure. I'm not saying there is no undesirable behavior, but that the aim should be to address the underlying cause of said behavior on a systemic scale, "people are the product of their environment" a sympton, not the disease. Stripping influental figures of their power is neccessary, executions and cages are not. At least not with current technology.

I've never in any way excused or dismissed inequality, don't straw-man. Nor do you know anything about me, what I've lived through, or why I'm here. Attack ideas not the man, if you can't then say so.

You know that the most revolutions in history are non-violent? Violent revolutions always fail, in that the populous' living conditions either stay the same or become worse off than before, usually worse. The few succesful revolutions were all non-violent. It's tempting to give in to our base emotions and attack the percieved sources of stress, that's what Chimpanzees do.

What's the cause of racism, slavery, murder, rape, theft, etc.? Are these behaviors acceptable in our society, if not how can we prevent it from happening? Notice I say "prevent" and not "who is to blame", I believe that frame work is required for what you call "justice".

If you think I'm a defender of the current system, you should re-read everything I've said and think about it. I used to think like you before I began educating myself on these topics. Though lately, it seems like humanity is a sinking ship, and everyone is still dancing while the captain stuffs his pockets and makes a run for it before they notice.

 

[spanishguy22]

if you consider being homeless for 2 years sheltered then sure. I'm not saying there is no undesirable behavior, but that the aim should be to address the underlying cause of said behavior on a systemic scale, "people are the product of their environment" a sympton, not the disease. Stripping influental figures of their power is neccessary, executions and cages are not. At least not with current technology.

I've never in any way excused or dismissed inequality, don't straw-man. Nor do you know anything about me, what I've lived through, or why I'm here. Attack ideas not the man, if you can't then say so.

You know that the most revolutions in history are non-violent? Violent revolutions always fail, in that the populous' living conditions either stay the same or become worse off than before, usually worse. The few succesful revolutions were all non-violent. It's tempting to give in to our base emotions and attack the percieved sources of stress, that's what Chimpanzees do.

What's the cause of racism, slavery, murder, rape, theft, etc.? Are these behaviors acceptable in our society, if not how can we prevent it from happening? Notice I say "prevent" and not "who is to blame", I believe that frame work is required for what you call "justice".

If you think I'm a defender of the current system, you should re-read everything I've said and think about it. I used to think like you before I began educating myself on these topics. Though lately, it seems like humanity is a sinking ship, and everyone is still dancing while the captain stuffs his pockets and makes a run for it before they notice.

Humm... The Roman empire was founded purely with violence, the French revolution was necessarily violent. World Wars were violent. Che Guevara.

Human beings will always be pieces of shit no matter what "society" deems acceptable.
In order to challenge these bigots in the higher power or for the bigots to become powerful themselves, humans needed to exert violence or nothing would have ever changed. There's only so much you can do with words because each human is a certain way and will follow their bran patters, which may be either messed up or not.

I'm not really following this discussion just addressing that point which was blatantly idealistic and false.

 

[Divine Trinity]

Humm... The Roman empire was founded purely with violence, the French revolution was necessarily violent.
Human beings will always be pieces of shit no matter what "society" seems acceptable.
In order to challenge these bigots in the higher power humans needed to exert violence or nothing would have ever changed

I'm not really following this discussion just addressing that point which was blatantly idealistic and false.

"in that the populous' living conditions either stay the same or become worse off than before, usually worse."

The formation of an empire, and a dictator taking power only prove my point. How did the Socialist Revolution turn out for the russians? Or the US revolution in 1770's? The common man's life got worse, and some dictator hijacks the revolution and turns it into a totalitarian state.

Edit: I'll accept that Washington did not become a dictator, though the election system was designed to disenfranchise anyone who was not a property owning white guy. Nevermind the genocides, slavery, rape, and pillaging of AA's and native tribes. Almost forgot theft, since they auctioned off land they had no rights to.

 

[Vegrau]

Humm... The Roman empire was founded purely with violence, the French revolution was necessarily violent. World Wars were violent. Che Guevara.

Human beings will always be pieces of shit no matter what "society" deems acceptable.
In order to challenge these bigots in the higher power or for the bigots to become powerful themselves, humans needed to exert violence or nothing would have ever changed. There's only so much you can do with words because each human is a certain way and will follow their bran patters, which may be either messed up or not.

I'm not really following this discussion just addressing that point which was blatantly idealistic and false.

Every empires are built on blood. And yes to fight power we need more power thats just the rule of the universe. Survival the fittest. That person doesnt even dare to acknowledge my questions or his own words. Just ignore that person. He kind of lost it. I thought I was having some philosophical talk then he suddenly talks about unrelated things. Thanks for chipping in I appreciate it.