Discussion Religion, hell, CTB and why we shouldn't worry

[maakies]

Haha. I'm agnostic Catholic and hell won't stop me from CTB. There isn't truly a hell. Our understanding of hell is from Dante's Inferno which is essentially hell fan fiction - if that helps lol.

 

[GentleJerk]

I loved the passion and all the dedication you put into writing this here, It was fun to read!

The closest thing available to the oldest, and most authentic writings of the Bible is King James' Version.

...King James was a Freemason.

 

[Sherri]

I can't put up that fucking behavior.
You did it right !

Also if I CTB, no one would burry me as it's a sin for them. I wanna be cremated anyways. Dont need a pastor. Just fry me up.

 

[Amumu]

I agree with everything but the eight point. Believing science made us happier is foolish.

Because not everyone has the strength to be an existentialist or an absurdist. Lots (and probably most nowadays) of atheists fall into nihilism, and when you're a nihilist, you can't be happy. And "optimistic nihilism" is just, in fact, old school existentialism, I don't know why they created the term.



I don't even know why I'm trying to prove my point when 90% of people on a suicide forum are atheist, according to the last poll.

 

[Justsogone]

Also if I CTB, no one would burry me as it's a sin for them. I wanna be cremated anyways. Dont need a pastor. Just fry me up.

Also if I CTB, no one would burry me as it's a sin for them. I wanna be cremated anyways. Dont need a pastor. Just fry me up.

You don't have to be regretful about hell
You already know It's pointless

 

[Ta555]

I agree with everything but the eight point. Believing science made us happier is foolish.

Because not everyone has the strength to be an existentialist or an absurdist. Lots (and probably most nowadays) of atheists fall into nihilism, and when you're a nihilist, you can't be happy. And "optimistic nihilism" is just, in fact, old school existentialism, I don't know why they created the term.

View attachment 83256

I don't even know why I'm trying to prove my point when 90% of people on a suicide forum are atheist, according to the last poll.

I'm not sure what you mean because you talked about philosophy in your post not science...

I loved the passion and all the dedication you put into writing this here, It was fun to read!

The closest thing available to the oldest, and most authentic writings of the Bible is King James' Version.

...King James was a Freemason.

Yeah I have a lot of these thought and no one to say them too so it probably comes out a bit...passionate haha when I finally get to get it out.

Haha. I'm agnostic Catholic and hell won't stop me from CTB. There isn't truly a hell. Our understanding of hell is from Dante's Inferno which is essentially hell fan fiction - if that helps lol.

That and those wack Hieronymus Bosch paintings. I'm sure that guy was high as fuck.

 

[Rational man]

Thirdly, if God does indeed send people to hell he is a sadistic bastard. T

'He' must be very busy evaluating everyone. Maybe ' hell' is in our own mind. The Adam and Eve story is enough to scare anyone because humankind has failed. Im going to hell apparently because i bypassed Eve and fukced Adam.

 

[Ta555]

'He' must be very busy evaluating everyone. Maybe ' hell' is in our own mind. The Adam and Eve story is enough to scare anyone because humankind has failed. Im going to hell apparently because i bypassed Eve and fukced Adam.

Good thing you're not going anywhere and it's all bullshit used to control the masses

 

[charlie_z]

I really like your post and it does have a calming effect.

My fear is that there are, in fact, many accounts of NDEs, and I worry that my perception of time at the moments immediately before my death would feel like an eternity. I have experienced altered states of consciousness, and I know firsthand that even if heaven and hell are empirically unsubstantiated nonsense stories (and I mostly agree with this position), our consciousness can certainly create very vivid states. Bearing that in mind, we also don't really have any evidence that the subjective experiencing of heaven and hell as states of consciousness is not possible. If I am in agonizing distress before I end my life, how can I ensure that that feeling of distress doesn't last an eternity when I stop perceiving time the way I normally do in my conscious waking state?

Anyway, this isn't at all an argument -- just some thoughts. I actually really appreciated your post for giving me more perspective on the idea of life after death. I hope nothingness is actually what happens after death.

About NDE's I personally think they're based on the individuals own beliefs. Not necessarily what the afterlife is actually like.

Yeah, I agree. There's a bit of science out there that indicates the brain is flushed with a wash of DMT when it knows it is dying. The mechanics of how and why this takes place is a little beyond me, but it seems DMT acts like a hallucinogenic. The hallucinogenic seems malleable to a person's preconception and wishes. The 'dying person (i.e., his or her brain) in essence takes themselves on the 'Final' journal, seeing and perceiving those people and life-elements important to their lifetime on earth. In other words, the 'voyage' or 'trip' described in NDEs is essentially the manifestation of an ego's wish-fulfillment made possible via biochemical reactions in the brain at the time of imminent death. Personally, I prefer the more romantic tale of angels, clouds, and the Pearly Gates. but more likely than not, we simply switch off at the moment of death. Sorry, didn't mean to ramble on, but I like where your comment was going.

 

[G_Man]

Imagine committing suicide to relieve your suffering and you end up in hell receiving eternal suffering.

 

[Ta555]

Imagine committing suicide to relieve your suffering and you end up in hell receiving eternal suffering.

Well I'd rather not that's what I've spent several years trying to get out of my head

 

[ElderRecluse]

An enjoyable read and hopefully helps some understand atheism more fully. I'm also an atheist and you did miss one of my pet peaves about religion: prayer. Nothing fails like prayer and it is just so hard for me to accept that the failure isn't seen by those that practice it.

Another pet peave it when there is a lone survivor of an accident that kills many others, and the survivor thanks god for saving them. I guess to them it's okay that he killed all the others. Also, the fact that they survived is often the result of the EMT that saved their life, but they don't mention that.

 

[Ta555]

An enjoyable read and hopefully helps some understand atheism more fully. I'm also an atheist and you did miss one of my pet peaves about religion: prayer. Nothing fails like prayer and it is just so hard for me to accept that the failure isn't seen by those that practice it.

Another pet peave it when there is a lone survivor of an accident that kills many others, and the survivor thanks god for saving them. I guess to them it's okay that he killed all the others. Also, the fact that they survived is often the result of the EMT that saved their life, but they don't mention that.

Yeah the prayer thing...because sometimes prayers are 'answered' i.e. coincidence so you can beat your head against the wall with that one. You can cite studies and experiments but a really religious person will always have a personal example 'Well my aunt prayed and then this happened so take that atheists.' They always have some coincidental anecdote to keep their head in the sand.
And your other point, like surviving when others died. It's pretty sick. And usually people well say...well that's others that died, god wanted them back in heaven ugh it's sickening.

 

[Romeo1984]

It's a shame I wanted to talk to Lucifer

One of the things I question. If "God created all things and they are good", who created evil?

Think about: Who was Lucifer?
God must have been bored and let his most perfect angel revolt, create an army and hell. So, who created (or allowed to create) hell in the stories of Catholicism?

If all this happened without God knowing it, then he is not omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent as the Bible says. Or he's wicked and let it all happen, according to his plan.

 

[Ta555]

One of the things I question. If "God created all things and they are good", who created evil?

Think about: Who was Lucifer?
God must have been bored and let his most perfect angel revolt, create an army and hell. So, who created (or allowed to create) hell in the stories of Catholicism?

If all this happened without God knowing it, then he is not omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent as the Bible says. Or he's wicked and let it all happen, according to his plan.

He's pretty much an asshole. There's no way around it. And a lot of Christian ideas come from later philosophers, artists and writers and not even from the Bible itself. And the Bible doesn't have anything going for it either being a hodge podge of anonymous writings decades and centuries after the fact.

 

[MyStateKilledMe]

"Maybe this world is another planet's hell." (Aldous Huxley)

Also, look at my signature: No matter how bad this world is, it can't be any worse than whatever hell that might exist in the afterlife.

 

[charlie_z]

the logic behind heaven and hell is so absurd that even a child could easily debunk it. I don't know how there are still so many people who believe that.

Ego wish-fulfillment. It's hard for many to imagine and accept that there's only nothingness after this life. Personally, I would love for there to be some more beautiful and peaceful state after this life, but my mind and heart tell me I'm being childish and to get on with the act of dying.

 

[Samsal112]

This is not only a well thought out post, but it also offers a lot of peace. I notice on these boards that a lot of people come from abusive religious backgrounds. As you mentioned in your post, it can be hard to escape the falseness of religion when you have been raised on it. But, I think it is harder when you have not come from an abusive religious background. I was never a part of an abusive church and my family is pretty tolerant of all things and we don't have any beliefs that I would deem radical. I started questioning Christianity when I started reading literature from other religions and cultures. I remember a long time ago, a professor telling us that Dante's Inferno brought up suicide as a punishment and the Catholic church took that and ran with it. However, as pointed out in your articulate post, no where in the Bible is suicide called a sin. I have always found it odd how the Christian religion originates from Judaism and yet the two religions are so different. I mean, if we can't even agree on the afterlife, then how are we worshipping the same God? How do we support Jewish people while simultaneously declaring that Gentiles know better because we believe in Jesus Christ? The only thing that I can come up with is that the Christian religion was started because of the Jewish people's captivity in Rome, which was the birth of Catholicism. Then, as a History teacher, I know that other religions such as the Anglican Church came about due to changes to the Catholic religion. How can ONE God have so many different religions? The idea of Jesus Christ is such a western religion; you get to commit sins without any real determination to a God or religion and you're still saved and forgiven. Other religions require their followers to commit and live a certain life. I read that the Bible actually mentions other gods because at that time there was a belief that other gods existed but that the Jewish people believed THAT god was the one true God. So, it then looks as any other religion or creation story. I am rambling, but my point is that maybe with some research, most people would be godless.

 

[Snake of Eden]

I am rambling, but my point is that maybe with some research, most people would be godless.

is it really that great to be godless though?
Cant we find some beneficial lessons in the themes and ideas of godliness without having to uphold all the religious baggage?

 

[Samsal112]

is it really that great to be godless though?
Cant we find some beneficial lessons in the themes and ideas of godliness without having to uphold all the religious baggage?

I guess it depends on your definition of godless. If you're suggesting that godless is evil or lack of social awareness, than that's not what I was speaking of. I mean people wouldn't worship a God. But, yes, there are some helpful themes in religions that make for a less chaotic life such is found in Proverbs. But, you can practice stoicism without religion, which is a beneficial way of living and existing.

 

[Snake of Eden]

I guess it depends on your definition of godless. If you're suggesting that godless is evil or lack of social awareness, than that's not what I was speaking of. I mean people wouldn't worship a God. But, yes, there are some helpful themes in religions that make for a less chaotic life such is found in Proverbs. But, you can practice stoicism without religion, which is a beneficial way of living and existing.

To me its not so much about personal practice as the principle of governing force in the universe where justice transcends material existence and death. If people believed they can get away with whatever they do, it is counterproductive to maintaining minimal suffering that goes on in the world

 

[Lost Magic]

I am agnostic. I am open to possibilities but not fussed if there is nothing after death either. Great post by the way. People need to not fear the unknown and acknowledge that even those old books never mentioned hell. I think a lot of horror movies depicting the fires of hell have badly influenced a lot of of people who can't discern fact from fiction.

 

[Ta555]

This is not only a well thought out post, but it also offers a lot of peace. I notice on these boards that a lot of people come from abusive religious backgrounds. As you mentioned in your post, it can be hard to escape the falseness of religion when you have been raised on it. But, I think it is harder when you have not come from an abusive religious background. I was never a part of an abusive church and my family is pretty tolerant of all things and we don't have any beliefs that I would deem radical. I started questioning Christianity when I started reading literature from other religions and cultures. I remember a long time ago, a professor telling us that Dante's Inferno brought up suicide as a punishment and the Catholic church took that and ran with it. However, as pointed out in your articulate post, no where in the Bible is suicide called a sin. I have always found it odd how the Christian religion originates from Judaism and yet the two religions are so different. I mean, if we can't even agree on the afterlife, then how are we worshipping the same God? How do we support Jewish people while simultaneously declaring that Gentiles know better because we believe in Jesus Christ? The only thing that I can come up with is that the Christian religion was started because of the Jewish people's captivity in Rome, which was the birth of Catholicism. Then, as a History teacher, I know that other religions such as the Anglican Church came about due to changes to the Catholic religion. How can ONE God have so many different religions? The idea of Jesus Christ is such a western religion; you get to commit sins without any real determination to a God or religion and you're still saved and forgiven. Other religions require their followers to commit and live a certain life. I read that the Bible actually mentions other gods because at that time there was a belief that other gods existed but that the Jewish people believed THAT god was the one true God. So, it then looks as any other religion or creation story. I am rambling, but my point is that maybe with some research, most people would be godless.

There were indeed 'many gods' with Yahweh being one among many worshipped in the region.
There are several reasons why it took hold and it's fascinating to learn about. But the main reason it took hold was because it became the official religion of Rome. This is the only reason it spread. If Emperor I forget his name didn't do this (and it was for political reasons), it probably would've remained a sect that could have died out or continued as a minor religion.
To answer your other thought. Yes I believe being godless is best. Having a god is like having a father that never dies and you're forced into the role of a child forever. It takes away your autonomy. I highly recommend searching up and watching some Christopher Hitchens on YouTube.

 

[lostautist]

I'm not against believing that there may be some form of higher consciousness... that leads into physics and debating whether consciousness is a Fundamental Force of nature, if that information is not destroyed when neurons die and is quantized and somehow retained by the appropriate field, i.e. QFT, something may move beyond. That's a completely different topic though. I grew up learning many of the same reasonings that you've posted here. Excellent write up!

NDEs are a biological process usually interpreted by those who experience them based on their belief structures, at least from what I've looked into. Other events, sleep terrors, hypnagogia, sleep paralysis and various meditative states are also often described based on belief structures as well. They're really interesting to read about, but everyone has different beliefs so you probably shouldn't try to hard to relate to them.

Anyway, thank you for sharing that. It's this very knowledge you provided that has sent me on the journey through science and philosophy ages ago.

 

[Ta555]

I'm not against believing that there may be some form of higher consciousness... that leads into physics and debating whether consciousness is a Fundamental Force of nature, if that information is not destroyed when neurons die and is quantized and somehow retained by the appropriate field, i.e. QFT, something may move beyond. That's a completely different topic though. I grew up learning many of the same reasonings that you've posted here. Excellent write up!

NDEs are a biological process usually interpreted by those who experience them based on their belief structures, at least from what I've looked into. Other events, sleep terrors, hypnagogia, sleep paralysis and various meditative states are also often described based on belief structures as well. They're really interesting to read about, but everyone has different beliefs so you probably shouldn't try to hard to relate to them.

Anyway, thank you for sharing that. It's this very knowledge you provided that has sent me on the journey through science and philosophy ages ago.

Yeah there might be something in the energy concept, that maybe some of our energy goes elsewhere but personally I'm not very convinced. The brain is so complex I think we'll never really figure out how it works completely but just because it's ridiculously complicated doesn't mean it's mystical or magical like some people want us to believe. It's just a ridiculously complex machine to me.
I'm glad you also went on the science and philosophy journey. It was really amazing to me how easy the religion and it's beliefs and arguments fall apart if you just start asking some basic questions!

 

[lostautist]

Yeah there might be something in the energy concept, that maybe some of our energy goes elsewhere but personally I'm not very convinced. The brain is so complex I think we'll never really figure out how it works completely but just because it's ridiculously complicated doesn't mean it's mystical or magical like some people want us to believe. It's just a ridiculously complex machine to me.

Medicine believes that brain activity and consciousness only exist at the biological level, neurons communicating through synapses through electrochemical signals. etc, and ends there. Some physicists believe that quantum mechanics are needed to explain coherence of consciousness on a larger sense and exists along side the biological processes. There is proof that some senses are both biological and quantum in nature. If this is indeed true, some of the information may also be quantum in nature and when biological death occurs, some of that information could continue to exist at the quantum level.

Its very complex and I'm not really informed enough to even convey much more. On the Dunning-Kruger effect I know enough to know that I know almost nothing except to describe what I have above. Sir Rodger Penrose, Steven Hawkings mentor, is a big proponent of Quantum Consciousness and has given a number of lectures on the topic. I find stuff like this fascinating.

I'm glad you also went on the science and philosophy journey. It was really amazing to me how easy the religion and it's beliefs and arguments fall apart if you just start asking some basic questions!

I'm curious about reality. Many turn to religion to explain it. I don't believe in organized religion... your whole initial post explains why. Theoretical physics and Scientific Method is philosophy. In many circumstances there are no facts and It's as close to truth as one can get.

 

[ColorlessTrees]

Very nice post. You've described my thoughts exactly regarding "hell", or eternal damnation.

The common images of heaven and hell seem extreme, almost comical—it's black and white. The idea of these afterlifes lack nuance in a world that's so complex and enigmatic; I find it hard to believe.

 

[Ta555]

Very nice post. You've described my thoughts exactly regarding "hell", or eternal damnation.

The common images of heaven and hell seem extreme, almost comical—it's black and white. The idea of these afterlifes lack nuance in a world that's so complex and enigmatic; I find it hard to believe.

Thanks! Yep it's basically so extreme to keep people in line. Especially people throughout history before modern policing and surveillance. It's a pretty neat trick. Makes people afraid and police themselves. Also helps when you're threatened with abandonment or torture if you start questioning. The whole thing is like a dictatorship.
Have you heard that joke:
Jesus: knock knock
You: who's there?
Jesus: it's me Jesus. Let me in.
You: uh...why?
Jesus: so I can save you
You: from what?
Jesus: from what my dad will do to you if you don't let me in.

Yeah...basically Christianity in a nutshell.

 

[LoveTakesManyForms]

I've seen a few threads with religious/afterlife themes lately about NDEs, hell, religions and etc and just wanted to add my two cents. I'll be straight up. I'm an atheist and this post is for anyone who is afraid, doubting or who has been traumatised by their religion. If anyone reading this is strongly religious this post is not meant as the start of a debate. You will not be able to convince me and I probably won't convince you. So I'm not going to debate the existence of God. I would, however, like to outline some things I've learned on my journey to atheism that may help other people who have been left scared, stressed or abused by religious upbringing. Post is long so feel free to skip around to parts relevant to you.

Firstly, there is no hell. There is no hell in the Christian sense of a place of brimstone and fire and a devil torturing you. Hell is not mentioned in the bible and as far as I'm aware the name Hell comes from the Norse Hel, it's what the Vikings believed in. What is mentioned in the bible is Gehenna. This is an actual place outside Jerusalem. It was considered an evil place because child sacrifices had taken place there and it was a garbage dump. An actual garbage dump where people burned rubbish. That's where the burning comes from. The most coherent interpretation I've come across is that when Jesus talked about being burned what he meant was that those who had been good on Earth would end up with God and those who had been evil would be burned to ashes and exist no more. They would be annihilated. Burnt out of existence, not burnt as torture for all eternity. Also, the Jewish religion does not have a hell. Or nowhere near what Christianity imagines as a hell. So how do Christians and Jews believe in the same God but a completely different after life?

Secondly, nowhere is it written in the Bible that suicide is a sin. There are a couple of suicides in the old testament and there is no mention of the person being punished for this. Suicide as a sin was established by the church several centuries into the religion because too many people were killing themselves to get to heaven. Think about this. How would the religion grow and who would be around to pay tithes if they all killed themselves? This was a pragmatic and economic move by the church.

Thirdly, if God does indeed send people to hell he is a sadistic bastard. Those of you who have children, can you imagine them committing any crime here on earth that you feel would make them worthy of eternal and I mean ETERNAL torture? I don't think anyone would say yes. I don't think anyone could bear to see their child tortured for ALL ETERNITY no matter what crime they may have committed. The bad things anyone happens to do on Earth are finite. But God supposedly hands out an infinite punishment for these finite crimes. Does this sound like someone who is just and fair and loving? Is this even rational? If God is perfect, how can he have such a sadistic and irrational rule? I could understand if there was some sort of scale like, if you steal you get this much time in hell, if you kill another person, you get this much time or whatever but INFINITE torture for a finite crime? Really? And not only that, supposedly God, who is your loving father, is ok with this. With just sitting back and watching his beloved children being tortured for all eternity. Could you, as a parent, do that? Sit back, knowing you have omnipotence and can rescue your child from this at any moment in time, and just watch and wring your hands and say 'Well, they made their choice when they committed that crime'? What kind of parent would you be? Could you not think of a more appropriate consequence? Especially if you're supposed to be all loving?

Fourthly, religion is absurd and cannot be relied upon for any evidence of anything. Frist off, the bible is no proof of anything. The most authoritative biblical scholars will tell you that the earliest writings of the new testament were written at least a few decades after the supposed resurrection of Jesus and probably more. And this is in an age with no telecommunication or video recording. The bible is as much proof that god exists as the Harry Potter series proof that Harry Potter exists. We have no idea who wrote the books of the bible, under what circumstances, where they got their information from and etc. Not only that but the book we know as the bible was put together in the 3rd​ or 4th​ century AD by a council. And there were many books and gospels that were left out because they did not fit the narrative the early church wanted. This is not conspiracy theory but well known fact amount religious scholars. Also, religion keeps changing its mind as science evolves. We went from literal interpretation to now saying much of the old testament is metaphor. I mean even the Catholic church now accepts the earth goes around the sun and that evolution is real. This was unthinkable a few centuries ago and people were burned and tortured for saying so. If the bible was so true and to be taken literally the biggest church in the world wouldn't be doing such about turns. And don't get me started on the Catholic church selling indulgences in the middle ages…being able to buy your way out of hell. Don't make me laugh.

Fifthly, God is not loving. Besides my point above about God and sending you to hell, God is not loving. If he is a parent he is the shittiest one you could have. Think about it. Think about the Adam and Eve story. They were punished for eating from the Tree of Knowledge. Basically God wanted them to stay ignorant children all their lives. Do you want that for your children? For them to stay naïve and ignorant and obedient to you all their lives? Because that's what God wants. He doesn't want them to develop into fully formed individuals with their own views and values. And in the new testament Jesus tells us that we should be like little children if we want to inherit the kingdom of god. It sounds cute and makes for a great soundbite but have you ever really thought about it? Do you really want to give up your intellect and autonomy? Because that is the price for going to heaven. What a great parent… and not only that, God creates you knowing exactly what you will do in your life, he is omniscient so he knows before he even creates you whether you will choose to believe in him or not, whether you will CTB or not, whether you will be gay or not and basically any other sin that will supposedly send you to hell. He knows all this. He knows exactly what you will do and think throughout your life. He knows whether you will do something worthy of hell and yet he still creates you. Think about it, there he is like 'Hmm…well I see that Johnny will never accept Jesus into his heart, be gay and he will eventually take a heroin overdose to kill himself because he can't stand to live in persecution and hate from his family anymore, which according to my rules means he'll go to hell but hey, I'm gonna create him anyway.' If you disagree with this that means you disagree with the fact that God is omniscient, all knowing. And if he's not all knowing then he's a weak God. There's a lot more I can say about this topic but I won't. I strongly recommend the YouTube channel 'Theramin Trees' who explores this calmly and in depth. But just to summarise, this loving God we've been told looks after us really doesn't. He is either not omniscient or not omnipotent.

Sixthly (is that even a word?), what makes Christianity or Judaism or Islam or whatever other religion more real than any other? There have been thousands of religions around the world throughout the years. Why do we believe our one is true? For example, I was raised Christian and I'm not afraid of the Muslim hell, yet hundreds of millions of people around the world believe I'm going there. I don't because I've been brought up to believe that only my religion is true. We're not afraid of the hell of other religions, only our own. Let's take that last step and not believe in the hell of our childhood religion either. This is also why I don't believe in reincarnation, karma etc. It's just one set of beliefs among many which has just as much scientific and credible evidence as Christianity. Which is zero.

Seven (I give up). NDEs and the like. I do not believe in this as I have stated several times on different threads. NDEs are called NEAR death experiences for a reason. They are not brain death but happen when the heart stops beating the brain is receiving limited but not zero oxygen. No one has come back from complete full brain death to tell us what it was like so I dismiss any and all NDE experiences and will not argue about them anymore here or anywhere else.

Eight, religion may not be true but is still a positive force in the world. No, it's not. For individuals it might be and that's fine. If individuals get through the day because they feel there is a God looking after them then that's good. I'm not going to harangue that person to stop believing. But as a social force they are evil. They impede progress (thanks Dark Ages where science was basically considered the devil and even now science stalls in things such as stem cell research because of religion) and they trample on human rights (abortion, assisted suicide, lgbtq etc). Just because a person's beliefs bring them individual comfort does not mean religion is a good thing. If religion is the only reason someone does good things like volunteering, or charity work then I feel bad for that person. Many atheists also engage in many altruistic and charitable activities so I don't really agree with the argument that religion is needed in society. It should be an extremely private thing.

To any that fear Hell, or the prospect of suffering due to suicide, I invite you to assuage your fears and liberate yourself from such tyrannical thinking:

The idea of Hell is clearly a human invention, a distortion of scripture, or even a new invention altogether.
All the motivation and historical evidence is there:
Someone thought of the worst thing they could imagine in order to influence and control others to act in ways that suit them, so that they can maintain power and control over them.
It remains patently obvious: Christianity/Hell may be used as artifices designed to control the masses, and which therefore may have been one of their salient purposes:

Not so long ago there was no separation of church and state- the church owned most of the land, and their word was Law. They exterted an enormous amount of power and influence over the populace.

In those times it was far easier for groups to rise up in order to usurp kings and those in power they didn't like; sans the advent of technology with which to quell such uprisings i.e. detection of coups online, well equipped police and military, etc., all it took was a good number of strong, armed men, willpower, and perhaps strategy to remove those in power from their pedestal i.e. the playing field in terms of power and control was far more level than that of today.
Also the life and death stakes were far higher back then- famine, pestilence, disaster, war were still far more commonplace- there was a premium on ensuring compliance in order to preserve one's own comfort and survival.

The holy men of the church portrayed themselves as the arbiters of God's will; to defy them was to defy God himself.
And what happens when one defies God? He may be subject to mercy, or- should his representative "confirm" (i.e. invent)- be DAMNED FOR ETERNITY IN THE FIERY INFERNO OF HELL (with or without torture beforehand of course)!!
Also the common man was not allowed to read the bible, only the "holy ones" had access to that. I wonder why... why on earth would a controlling few want to keep scripture from the scruples of the everyman? Hmm...

So, might the prospect of burning in agony for all eternity serve as a deterrent for those who might oppose the clergy, its Will and Decree, and therefore be an efficient tool with which to dispel any potential uprising, and therefore maintian the power and influence of the Church?
I think it just might!

AS AN ASIDE, ON ETERNITY AND RELIGION:

Can eternity even exist as a concept? Everything in life has a beginning and an end. Everything is finite, even life itself. Have we any reason to believe this might be different at life's end?
No, and if we are made in God's image, being the rational creatures that we are, then he has literally designed us to not believe in an afterlife.
Why would he do that if he wanted us to be with him there?
None of it makes any sense, and with rationality the only viable tool at our disposal, with what else would we come to know God?
Blind faith? By that token we might as well believe in any concept- Hinduism, Buddhism, Satanism, the magical witch God of fairies and unicorns...
When unfounded faith becomes one's main guidance in selecting a religion to follow, all Gods become one in same...

The flaws in religion are so myriad and span the breadth of the topic to the point of absurdity.
The idea of religion is, quite frankly, risible.
To those that believe, I hope it serves them well. But I have no reason to, and find many interpretations toxic- harmful to one's spiritual and mental health.
I was raised a Chrisitian, and as a child who didn't know any better, I found the idea of Hell rather frightening- needless to say the thought of burning for eternity didn't gel well with me.
I will admit however that the idea of an eternally loving God that loves me unconditionally was comforting also. So I guess it had its merits.
It is wonderful to now be older and wise enough to realise what a load of hogwash the concept of Hell is though.
I'm open to it, I just have no reason to believe in it, and certainly don't feel a sense of God's existence.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I've seen a few threads with religious/afterlife themes lately about NDEs, hell, religions and etc and just wanted to add my two cents. I'll be straight up. I'm an atheist and this post is for anyone who is afraid, doubting or who has been traumatised by their religion. If anyone reading this is strongly religious this post is not meant as the start of a debate. You will not be able to convince me and I probably won't convince you. So I'm not going to debate the existence of God. I would, however, like to outline some things I've learned on my journey to atheism that may help other people who have been left scared, stressed or abused by religious upbringing. Post is long so feel free to skip around to parts relevant to you.

Firstly, there is no hell. There is no hell in the Christian sense of a place of brimstone and fire and a devil torturing you. Hell is not mentioned in the bible and as far as I'm aware the name Hell comes from the Norse Hel, it's what the Vikings believed in. What is mentioned in the bible is Gehenna. This is an actual place outside Jerusalem. It was considered an evil place because child sacrifices had taken place there and it was a garbage dump. An actual garbage dump where people burned rubbish. That's where the burning comes from. The most coherent interpretation I've come across is that when Jesus talked about being burned what he meant was that those who had been good on Earth would end up with God and those who had been evil would be burned to ashes and exist no more. They would be annihilated. Burnt out of existence, not burnt as torture for all eternity. Also, the Jewish religion does not have a hell. Or nowhere near what Christianity imagines as a hell. So how do Christians and Jews believe in the same God but a completely different after life?

Secondly, nowhere is it written in the Bible that suicide is a sin. There are a couple of suicides in the old testament and there is no mention of the person being punished for this. Suicide as a sin was established by the church several centuries into the religion because too many people were killing themselves to get to heaven. Think about this. How would the religion grow and who would be around to pay tithes if they all killed themselves? This was a pragmatic and economic move by the church.

Thirdly, if God does indeed send people to hell he is a sadistic bastard. Those of you who have children, can you imagine them committing any crime here on earth that you feel would make them worthy of eternal and I mean ETERNAL torture? I don't think anyone would say yes. I don't think anyone could bear to see their child tortured for ALL ETERNITY no matter what crime they may have committed. The bad things anyone happens to do on Earth are finite. But God supposedly hands out an infinite punishment for these finite crimes. Does this sound like someone who is just and fair and loving? Is this even rational? If God is perfect, how can he have such a sadistic and irrational rule? I could understand if there was some sort of scale like, if you steal you get this much time in hell, if you kill another person, you get this much time or whatever but INFINITE torture for a finite crime? Really? And not only that, supposedly God, who is your loving father, is ok with this. With just sitting back and watching his beloved children being tortured for all eternity. Could you, as a parent, do that? Sit back, knowing you have omnipotence and can rescue your child from this at any moment in time, and just watch and wring your hands and say 'Well, they made their choice when they committed that crime'? What kind of parent would you be? Could you not think of a more appropriate consequence? Especially if you're supposed to be all loving?

Fourthly, religion is absurd and cannot be relied upon for any evidence of anything. Frist off, the bible is no proof of anything. The most authoritative biblical scholars will tell you that the earliest writings of the new testament were written at least a few decades after the supposed resurrection of Jesus and probably more. And this is in an age with no telecommunication or video recording. The bible is as much proof that god exists as the Harry Potter series proof that Harry Potter exists. We have no idea who wrote the books of the bible, under what circumstances, where they got their information from and etc. Not only that but the book we know as the bible was put together in the 3rd​ or 4th​ century AD by a council. And there were many books and gospels that were left out because they did not fit the narrative the early church wanted. This is not conspiracy theory but well known fact amount religious scholars. Also, religion keeps changing its mind as science evolves. We went from literal interpretation to now saying much of the old testament is metaphor. I mean even the Catholic church now accepts the earth goes around the sun and that evolution is real. This was unthinkable a few centuries ago and people were burned and tortured for saying so. If the bible was so true and to be taken literally the biggest church in the world wouldn't be doing such about turns. And don't get me started on the Catholic church selling indulgences in the middle ages…being able to buy your way out of hell. Don't make me laugh.

Fifthly, God is not loving. Besides my point above about God and sending you to hell, God is not loving. If he is a parent he is the shittiest one you could have. Think about it. Think about the Adam and Eve story. They were punished for eating from the Tree of Knowledge. Basically God wanted them to stay ignorant children all their lives. Do you want that for your children? For them to stay naïve and ignorant and obedient to you all their lives? Because that's what God wants. He doesn't want them to develop into fully formed individuals with their own views and values. And in the new testament Jesus tells us that we should be like little children if we want to inherit the kingdom of god. It sounds cute and makes for a great soundbite but have you ever really thought about it? Do you really want to give up your intellect and autonomy? Because that is the price for going to heaven. What a great parent… and not only that, God creates you knowing exactly what you will do in your life, he is omniscient so he knows before he even creates you whether you will choose to believe in him or not, whether you will CTB or not, whether you will be gay or not and basically any other sin that will supposedly send you to hell. He knows all this. He knows exactly what you will do and think throughout your life. He knows whether you will do something worthy of hell and yet he still creates you. Think about it, there he is like 'Hmm…well I see that Johnny will never accept Jesus into his heart, be gay and he will eventually take a heroin overdose to kill himself because he can't stand to live in persecution and hate from his family anymore, which according to my rules means he'll go to hell but hey, I'm gonna create him anyway.' If you disagree with this that means you disagree with the fact that God is omniscient, all knowing. And if he's not all knowing then he's a weak God. There's a lot more I can say about this topic but I won't. I strongly recommend the YouTube channel 'Theramin Trees' who explores this calmly and in depth. But just to summarise, this loving God we've been told looks after us really doesn't. He is either not omniscient or not omnipotent.

Sixthly (is that even a word?), what makes Christianity or Judaism or Islam or whatever other religion more real than any other? There have been thousands of religions around the world throughout the years. Why do we believe our one is true? For example, I was raised Christian and I'm not afraid of the Muslim hell, yet hundreds of millions of people around the world believe I'm going there. I don't because I've been brought up to believe that only my religion is true. We're not afraid of the hell of other religions, only our own. Let's take that last step and not believe in the hell of our childhood religion either. This is also why I don't believe in reincarnation, karma etc. It's just one set of beliefs among many which has just as much scientific and credible evidence as Christianity. Which is zero.

Seven (I give up). NDEs and the like. I do not believe in this as I have stated several times on different threads. NDEs are called NEAR death experiences for a reason. They are not brain death but happen when the heart stops beating the brain is receiving limited but not zero oxygen. No one has come back from complete full brain death to tell us what it was like so I dismiss any and all NDE experiences and will not argue about them anymore here or anywhere else.

Eight, religion may not be true but is still a positive force in the world. No, it's not. For individuals it might be and that's fine. If individuals get through the day because they feel there is a God looking after them then that's good. I'm not going to harangue that person to stop believing. But as a social force they are evil. They impede progress (thanks Dark Ages where science was basically considered the devil and even now science stalls in things such as stem cell research because of religion) and they trample on human rights (abortion, assisted suicide, lgbtq etc). Just because a person's beliefs bring them individual comfort does not mean religion is a good thing. If religion is the only reason someone does good things like volunteering, or charity work then I feel bad for that person. Many atheists also engage in many altruistic and charitable activities so I don't really agree with the argument that religion is needed in society. It should be an extremely private thing.

Thank you for posting this. I wasn't raised to be strongly religious but I guess it was always there and I have so many problems with religion and God... To the point that I get angry about it- My feelings are very similar to yours except I'm not a convinced atheist- I wish I was... things would be simpler!

There's a part of me that worries that there is a God and that, if there is- enough evidence exists towards him being a sadist... Like you said- not a loving, forgiving father- not even a balanced thinker come to that- why would an omnipotent being need a fan club? He/she/it sounds like an insecure narcissist. I always hated it at funerals that 'all who believe in Jesus enter the kingdom of heaven'- what about the really good people who don't?!!

The whole repentant murderers get in but suicides don't always irks me too... The whole- life is a precious gift from God... I've given people gifts before that they haven't liked... I wouldn't send them to hell for asking for the gift receipt...

The logical part of me sees religion as a construction by people in power to keep the masses in order by threatening some of our more undesirable behaviours with hell. Like you said- the idea of suicides going to hell was only introduced when the poor peasants suffering and slaving away in the fields were taking their own lives to get to heaven. There's that quote: 'God created man, then man returned the favour.'

Plus, I think our egos just can't cope with how insignificant we are- we have to live forever. We can't accept that this is all random meaningless.

Agree with the destiny thing too. If God knows everything- if fate and destiny are a thing, then there is no choice and if you didn't choose between right and wrong, then you shouldn't be praised or punished for making that choice!

I guess part of my confusion comes from religions comforting side- My Mum died when I was 3 and then, I lost quite a few more close family members in childhood. I was always comforted by the: 'they are in a better place- back together again and out of pain' line. I guess I always hoped I would get to see them again. It's always been a comfort to hope that they hadn't entirely gone. Still, a very wise atheist friend of mine said that the dead only live on in our memories- which is why it is important to remember them...

The biggest irony is probably the most 'Christian' people I know in terms of their kindness towards others and compassion are actually atheists! Lol

Thank you for reading my rant at religion! Feels good to finally express some of this.