Discussion Rational decision to ctb

[deadwithoutmusic]

I have some things on my mind tonight so I might make a few posts.

Often when I hear people talk about suicide victims they say things like, they were in a dark place, they weren't in the right mind, depression caused this, etc. Even when talking to my therapist she often says things like, "that's just the depression talking", almost invalidating my feelings in a way by saying that I don't actually mean or think that, it's just that I have depression. Why can't I have a rational thought and be depressed? I get that being depressed may cloud my judgement a lot of the time and make me not want to do a lot of things when I'm feeling down but at the same time I think I can also have rational thoughts. I think my decision to ctb is quite rational. I've thought it through and it's not very impulsive at all.

What does everyone else think?

 

[almost_dead]

yes , when you label something as dark/evil your basically invalidating their feelings

 

[pleasethistime]

The voice of sadness is censored as sick. What if it’s sane? | Aeon Essays

We keep chasing happiness, but true clarity comes from depression and existential angst. Admit that life is hell, and be free

aeon.co

 

[Trayus]

I completly agree with you! The fear they have with impulse decisions regarding ctb, is that you cant take it back anymore. Once you are gone you are gone. Some people say that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem - and for some cases its probably true.

But if you have rationally determined that your problems are not temporary, then suicide becomes the permanent solution to permanent problems, which is completly fine and rational! Some problems wont go away and some things will not get better with time... often people dont get that

 

[lemohemo]

I find from my own expereince of people dying around me is people are just more use to seeing people die as an immediate response to a stressor or something that has just happened, as opposed to something methodical and rational like we see in countries that euthanasia is legal.

 

[262653]

In my view, the necessary characteristic of a rational decision is that it is aimed to fulfill a specific goal. If I want to keep my body hydrated (the goal) and I'm thirsty, then it may be more rational to choose to drink a glass of water than to choose not to drink water. If I don't want to experience pain, it may be irrational to pierce my body with a thousand needles. (Goes against the goal.)
If there are conflicting goals, then the decision to fulfill one of those goals may be rational or irrational, depending on the goal in mind.

The OP made me want to google what a rational decision is. Look what I've found! Or don't look.

I haven't read everything yet, but here's the line I really like:

Other researchers in the field of behavioral economics have also tried to explain why human behavior often goes against pure economic rationality. The theory of bounded rationality holds that an individual's rationality is limited by the information they have, the cognitive limitations of their minds, and the finite amount of time they have to make a decision. This theory was proposed by Herbert A. Simon as a more holistic way of understanding decision-making. Bounded rationality shares the view that decision-making is a fully rational process; however, it adds the condition that people act on the basis of limited information. Because decision-makers lack the ability and resources to arrive at the optimal solution, they instead apply their rationality to a set of choices that have already been narrowed down by the absence of complete information and resources.

 

[deadwithoutmusic]

Some people say that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem - and for some cases its probably true.

But if you have rationally determined that your problems are not temporary, then suicide becomes the permanent solution to permanent problems, which is completly fine and rational! Some problems wont go away and some things will not get better with time... often people dont get that

That is a very nice counter to the argument of "permanent solution to a temporary problem". I think the problem people might still have is that you don't know if it will be temporary or not as you can't know anything in like 100% but you could probably make a good guess if it will or won't get better when you're in a rational state of mind.

In my view, the necessary characteristic of a rational decision is that it is aimed to fulfill a specific goal. If I want to keep my body hydrated (the goal) and I'm thirsty, then it may be more rational to choose to drink a glass of water than to choose not to drink water. If I don't want to experience pain, it may be irrational to pierce my body with a thousand needles. (Goes against the goal.)
If there are conflicting goals, then the decision to fulfill one of those goals may be rational or irrational, depending on the goal in mind.

The OP made me want to google what a rational decision is. Look what I've found! Or don't look.

I haven't read everything yet, but here's the line I really like:

I really liked that theory of bounded rationality. It makes a lot of sense but even though no one has all the information of the past, present and future, they still need to make decisions.

 

[SHThrowAway213]

I get exactly what you mean.
Also, most people don't seem to get you can be suicidal and not be depressed, which is what I am

 

[esse_est_percipi]

It's no more irrational to decide to ctb because of depression than to carry on living because of happiness.

Both depression and happiness come down to life circumstance and neurochemistry, differential levels of things like serotonin, dopamine etc.
Rationality is not predicated on the existence or presence of specific levels of x/y/z neurochemical or on specific life circumstances.
Low levels of serotonin don't make you less rational, they just make you less happy, and high levels of serotonin don't make you more rational, they just make you more happy.

 

[Wisdom3_1-9]

Why can't I have a rational thought and be depressed?

It's no more irrational to decide to ctb because of depression than to carry on living because of happiness.

AMEN to both these points!

 

[deadwithoutmusic]

I get exactly what you mean.
Also, most people don't seem to get you can be suicidal and not be depressed, which is what I am

I think this is a great point. I probably am depressed myself but I could definitely see someone giving up on life and not having the motivation to do much because they are planning to ctb which might look like depression.

 

[Ghost2211]

Labeling suicide as mental illness and saying one must be in a dark place to consider such actions is a tactic to prevent that level of free choice authority over oneself. It gives them the power to take away our independence if we don't keep playing the game. It's selfish and controlling to prevent suicides.

 

[DoNotLet2]

I think the answer is simple - they want to make it sound like suicide is something bad so they are using a specific language. They want to keep saying "don't ctb". If they just said "he committed suicide because of his unbearable pain may he rest in peace" they wouldn't criticize the act.

 

[262653]

A little about meaning. This isn't the first time, when a certain phrase is proposed for discussion (that's the depression talking; permanent solution -- temporary problem; not your fault -- your responsibility, and such), my attention is primarily focused on the literal interpretation until other users would point out that the context and intention behind phrase also shape its meaning.

Say, someone knocks at my door, a neighbor (English, pfft ) I'm usually not dealing with, and he asks how I'm doing, even though he never did that before. And after that he goes with: "I have a favor to ask..."
I'd get an impression that "how I'm doing" is an expression of fake concern with the intention to butter me up for an upcoming request.
But If I'd hear the same from a verified friend with whom I talk regularly, I'd guess that he/she may be bored and wants to have fun, play games or I don't know, but most likely I wouldn't expect the intention of taking an unfair advantage of me.

Also I've read more about the decision making from the link I put earlier, and I think I get the idea why emotional appeals may recieve more endorsement than rational arguments, like in politics. Since humans are limited in processing power and time, it makes intuitive sense to me that the high portion of those resources would be allocated to decisions which are assigned with a high priority by "our internal authorities" (like securing a shelter, food supply, mating partners etc.) Tasks like choosing a candidate, and talking with other people about their problems might seem to be less important and in such case they would recieve less resources = less effort in dealing with them. And I conjecture that in some cases (as it was with me) the daily routine is so demanding that one has no resources to critically assess one's position in life, how to improve it, how to replace already established malignant habits with more useful ones, and such.