*Hope*

*Hope*

Student
Jan 18, 2021
112
THANK YOU! It's as if I wrote this myself!
when will people in here get with the program and comprehend that a psychiatrist isn't there to sit and chat to you about the meaning of life? I feel like i'm banging my head against a wall when I explain this. They are a medical professional similar to a consultant. Therapists are like the nurses.

You need to get off your ass and change therapists if you don't find that particular one useful in anyway. Not doing so is just complacent and quite honest early, lazy. People need to take charge of their own health, well-being and recovery. You have to actively participate in this! It's not easy, it's damned hard work... But you can't expect a psychiatrist, psychologist, therapists or anyone else for that matter, drag you kicking and screaming into feeling better about life.
Folk need to stop blaming others for their situation and look inwards as see what you can do to improve your life.
Through actively trying to improve my mental health by reading up on news and researching medicines and studies, I have sought out ketamine therapy in the UK, only one place doing to at the time and made the financial and time commitment to participate in this treatment. A 2 ¾ hour drive each way once a month.

I've found this forum useful but my God, there are some people who need to stop playing the violin for themselves and TRY to sort their lives out. Seeing people talk about suicide because they don't like living at home with their parents, haven't got a job after being picky as hell or not the relevant qualifications, being dumped, not getting laid etc is mind blowing. Have some perspective ffs. Don't expect life or people owe you anything. you have to go out there and get it!
Hope more people read this!

If your situation is set in stone,like a physical disablility or any form of handicap that you cannot control, then there's not much you can do about it.

However, if it's something you can change, something you have control over, then do everything possible to change it before you decide to ctb

P.s. im not trying to say that some peoples problems are insignificant. All problems can inflict suffering. I just think that solvable problems are worth trying to solve to the very end.
 
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BeBraveBrother

Student
Sep 5, 2020
173
Psychology has nothing to do with Psychiatry. One is a bachelor degree of 3 years the other is a medical specialty that in most countries require 11-12 years of studies plus the extra training to get the accreditation for psychotherapy cognitive behavioral therapy etc.
The amount of bulshit in this thread is breathtaking.
First of all you dont understand the basic difference between psychology and psychiatry. Imagine how ignorant you are.
Yes mental disorders are not cured at the moment but there has been some progress compared to the past where most of you in this thread would have been tied down on a bed, burned on a stake, exorcised by some priest-shaman or received lobotomy. Ketamine is promising for MDD. Genetic mapping will point out which parts of the neurotransmitter/neuroreceptor process is damaged. Some drugs have saved peoples' lives. CBT has helped some others.
If you are dissappointed by the healthcare of your country regarding mental disease, it says little about the substance or not of a science or a medical specialty.
If you have a bad therapist, it also says little. Find a new one.
The fact that you typed " death to psychiatrists and psychologists" makes you a piece of shit like a lot of morons residing in this forum with the intellectual capacity of a turd. You disgust me.
You are welcome to seek professional help from a priest, a shaman, a life coach, a spiritual reiki healer, a yogi, a cult leader or any other spiritual individual that has not step a foot at a university or opened a book in their lives.

The vast majority of a medical study that contains 10-12 years is not dedicated to mind and brain. Most of it is about genereall anatomy in the first years and about learning treatment algorhytems for any physical illnesses of different fiels. If specialist in psychiatry a medical student will learn about psychology as well, but only a small excerpt of what a psychologist learns. I don't know the exact situation in other countries but I find it very unklikely that a 3 years bachelor degree in psychology will be enough to do a profesional therapy. It will either be a 5-6 years study (bachelor+master degree) plus professional training or somehting similar to that.
A psychiatrist will focus on prescription of medication, all the talk will most likely be about trying to commit a client to use the medication as prescripted.
As Clinical Psychology, Psychaitry relies on models. So for some it is helpfull, for some it isn't.
 
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Emily_Numb

Emily_Numb

Wizard
Jan 14, 2020
654
The vast majority of a medical study that contains 10-12 years is not dedicated to mind and brain. Most of it is about genereall anatomy in the first years and about learning treatment algorhytems for any physical illnesses of different fiels. If specialist in psychiatry a medical student will learn about psychology as well, but only a small excerpt of what a psychologist learns. I don't know the exact situation in other countries but I find it very unklikely that a 3 years bachelor degree in psychology will be enough to do a profesional therapy. It will either be a 5-6 years study (bachelor+master degree) plus professional training or somehting similar to that.
A psychiatrist will focus on prescription of medication, all the talk will most likely be about trying to commit a client to use the medication as prescripted.
As Clinical Psychology, Psychaitry relies on models. So for some it is helpfull, for some it isn't.
You can be a 'therapist' from doing a dog shit course for £49 on your computer. To be honest, in the UK, there is no formal qualification needed to call yourself a therapist or counsellor. This is why people should always do their research into the facilitators actual qualifications. Claiming 'all therapy is shit' is basically saying all therapists are created equal. They aren't. The same as any other academic and no -academic field.
 
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StateOfMind

StateOfMind

Liberty or Death
Apr 30, 2020
1,195
i think psychiatry is mostly bullshit but i think psychology is a somewhat accurate framework for predicting people's behaviors.

when pills get added into the equation is when i start having a problem with it
This is correct. Pattern recognition is a powerful tool abused by the authorities to destroy peoples lives.
See r/AmericanSasi and Zersetzung.
 
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BandAddict

BandAddict

Specialist
Apr 3, 2019
338
This ended being extremely lengthy, my apologies. Also a disclaimer, I'm not super knowledgeable or anything, but here's my 3 cents.

I feel like both have their own issues, and both areas have also opened more awareness to mental illness than what we've had in the past. As true as it is that humans can be savage, apathetic, and manipulative, even I have to admit that there's still a stronger sense of compassion towards mental illness in other individuals. I find that older generations have a more "rub dirt in it" mentality than some of us do now. Even now that these services exist, it still requires effort from both parties for it to have any kind of potential. Just wanted to open with that.

Psychology should be very fluid, in that it can't be a set standard that applies to every individual. That being said, it is always changing, but I don't think it accounts for how vastly different each and every mind works and what the experiences that have shaped their thought patterns are. That's where honesty comes in, because psychologists aren't mind-readers, though some might like to think that they are. (Yes, I'm talking about you, Grandma.) However, as much as communication is extremely important when you're trying to get the help that you need, the sad truth is that mental illness often makes communication extremely difficult. Thoughts don't always flow smoothly, and some things are too fucking hard to talk about. It takes time and, unfortunately, money in a lot of cases. I can agree with and understand the points of view I've seen here. Everyone has different needs and different problems that need to be solved accordingly. Still, like a classroom, I feel like there's this established consensus that's supposed to be like a one-size-fits-all type deal. Humans are too complicated for that, and sometimes I don't think that some people can actually benefit from it. Only so much can be done about external forces that impact mental health.

On psychiatrists, I've experienced trouble in this area personally. I noticed that I only had to say so much to be put on a lot of medication to treat many diagnoses that differed depending on who I spoke to. I say "I'm depressed because of [reason], but sometimes I feel a bit better, though it doesn't last long." "Oh you're bipolar, take these pills, if they don't work, we'll try this other pill." Shit doesn't get fixed that way. Medication isn't a cure-all, and I wish I knew that when I was younger. I was a kid that didn't know any better and thought they were trying to help me, but now I just feel like I was a guinea pig that is now damaged by psychiatric meds. And the worst part is, I felt SCARED to NOT take what they prescribed me, because they were very blatantly upset if I didn't want to take them or said they weren't working for me. I also understand that there are people who HAVE benefited from medication, and that's great, but I think that more should be done to determine if that's actually the action that should be taken for that individual. I wish anyone could get a brain scan to see if there's actually a problem IN THEIR BRAIN that can make it visible before jumping to conclusions. Just a thought..

And I know what I say might piss some people off, because of the whole "take charge of your own shit" idea, but the truth is, mental illness (in my experience) makes it nearly impossible to make my own decisions. Sometimes I can't even tell what's happening and don't know what the fucking answer is. I don't necessarily blame anyone for that, but I wish there was a better way.
 
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EmbraceOfTheVoid

EmbraceOfTheVoid

Part Time NEET - Full Time Suicidal
Mar 29, 2020
689
THANK YOU! It's as if I wrote this myself!
when will people in here get with the program and comprehend that a psychiatrist isn't there to sit and chat to you about the meaning of life? I feel like i'm banging my head against a wall when I explain this. They are a medical professional similar to a consultant. Therapists are like the nurses.

You need to get off your ass and change therapists if you don't find that particular one useful in anyway. Not doing so is just complacent and quite honest early, lazy. People need to take charge of their own health, well-being and recovery. You have to actively participate in this! It's not easy, it's damned hard work... But you can't expect a psychiatrist, psychologist, therapists or anyone else for that matter, drag you kicking and screaming into feeling better about life.
Folk need to stop blaming others for their situation and look inwards as see what you can do to improve your life.
Through actively trying to improve my mental health by reading up on news and researching medicines and studies, I have sought out ketamine therapy in the UK, only one place doing to at the time and made the financial and time commitment to participate in this treatment. A 2 ¾ hour drive each way once a month.

Seeing people talk about suicide because they don't like living at home with their parents, haven't got a job after being picky as hell or not the relevant qualifications, being dumped, not getting laid etc is mind blowing. Have some perspective ffs. Don't expect life or people owe you anything. you have to go out there and get it!

Your comment is ignorant if not downright insulting; you're basically telling people to pull themselves up by the bootstraps even if they are incapable of doing so and even if they are a victim of horrific circumstances. Your situation is not the same as everyone elses and you frankly sound like one of the thousands of people that write vain self-help books making the claim: "If I can do it, then you can too!" despite those people already being capable of helping themselves.

Don't expect life or people owe you anything. you have to go out there and get it!

That's fine, but don't expect people to want to live when neither Psychology or society offers any meaningful form of help for the disadvantaged. The suicide rate will continue rising exponentially until people get something other than empty words and generic life advice you can find on google.

I used to think that suicide prevention was just another case of good intentions gone too far. That people really did care about those that wanted to die. That they did in fact want what was best for us and simply didn't understand that in some cases, they were doing nothing but prolonging a miserable existence.

And yeah, people are sympathetic, to an extent, to those who are suicidal. Nobody likes seeing someone in so much pain that they would rather die than keep living, but what are they actually willing to do to care for the people in such misery? Not much.

That's why suicide prohibitions and the current paradigm of mental healthcare in general are so convenient for everyone else. Despite claiming to follow the biopsychosocial model of mental health, clinical psychiatry/psychology pretty much leaves the -social part unaddressed and almost unacknowledged. Everyone is perfectly content to pretend that all issues of mental health are a matter of pathology. "Oh it's no problem that you can barely afford to pay your bills. That you've been isolated and ostracized, if not outright abused, for most of your life. There's just a problem with your brain chemistry, here's some pills. Go to some therapy because you clearly need to learn better coping skills."

The nice thing about painting our problems as individual defects or deficiencies, is that the onus is now completely on us to make our lives more livable. If they accepted that people are often driven to suicide by external pressures, that some people actually can't make it on their own, then they would have to make more tangible efforts to support those who are in need. Or they would have to admit that their honest attitude is, "Yeah we'd love for you to be living a satisfying life, but if enabling you to do so requires anything from us, well then fuck off."

Refusing to allow people to freely kill themselves allows the rest of society to feel like they're supporting suicidal people without having to assume any of the burden of those lives. And they know it isn't going to be enough for everyone. That is made abundantly clear by the thousands of people who kill themselves every year despite how difficult they've made it to commit suicide. But when those people inevitably fall through the cracks, everyone will just pat themselves on the back and tell themselves, "We did everything we could to keep them from dying." Yeah, but you did fuck all to give any of us a life worth living. -Suicidal stranger from the internet

In the United States alone, there is more money and funding available, but they choose to use it on almost anything else but helping their own citizens. People preach, just do this or just do that, I have done 'this and that'...I have tried everything already.

People say life is precious...

YET We depressed people are simply told "you're on your own", or "that's your problem", or "just go get counseling", YET almost nobody wants to invest even a molecule of their time to help beyond a mere phrase, etc.

And you wonder why more people are suicidal or depressed?!?

There are many different types of circumstances where people cannot do it all on their own anymore, for whatever reason. Why does the society preach it is 'your responsibility', etc.,

this has NOTHING to do with 'responsibility'...it has EVERYTHING to do with "I'm suffering and I can't take it anymore".

People are not robots designed to meet your definition of 'responsible' in this hardcore brutal place, they're organic beings with needs and feelings.
 
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sourpink

sourpink

Student
Aug 27, 2020
148
I personally think this more complex than "it's awful and completely devoid of worth" just as much as there's more to it than "it can be beneficial". both perceptions are worth taking into account.
in my experience, absolutely, invalidating happens, useless positivity is spouted, etc., but imo they try all those approaches both because perhaps some client at some point seemed to be helped by them, and they do to a point need to assess the level and variety of 'help' one might need -- talking about psychology. on psychiatry, some people are helped with medication, and usually there is a lot of trial and error to find what does help at all. and there will always be people who either don't feel comfortable with taking medication or medication simply doesn't benefit them enough to take the accompanying risks.
this is so much more than a 'black and white' issue and to treat it as such to me says whoever is speaking on it that way either is refusing to admit it is a nuanced conversation- sometimes it can help, sometimes not. and who you interact with for that care does play an important role.
additionally, I think it's a bit silly to turn one's nose up at medicine only to suggest religion. both can be subjective and neither are good blanket statements to make as a 'cure all'.
my point here: it's all subjective. it's not going to work universally for everyone, individual situations will always require unique solutions, even if the solution is to arrive at the conclusion that whatever form of help one might be trying to make work might not be best suited for them as an individual.
can we maybe try to look at this complicated issue from as many sides as possible??
all of this 'one extreme vs the other' nonsense is just as nonsensical as therapeutic approaches (medication or talk therapy, or both combined) being regarded as one size fits all.
/facepalm
 
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BeBraveBrother

Student
Sep 5, 2020
173
You can be a 'therapist' from doing a dog shit course for £49 on your computer. To be honest, in the UK, there is no formal qualification needed to call yourself a therapist or counsellor. This is why people should always do their research into the facilitators actual qualifications. Claiming 'all therapy is shit' is basically saying all therapists are created equal. They aren't. The same as any other academic and no -academic field.

Oh I didn't know that.
Here in Germany 'Psychologist' is a protected title and requires a at least 5 year study with a major in psychology (bachelor and master of science graduation) at a regular university.
'Psychotherapist' is a protected title for psychologists and physicians that undergo a 3 year full time supervised training (so it is at least 8 years here in germany).

However Clinical Psychology has its models and constructs that aren't questioned for decades. Lot of people observe that professionals project their models to their clients. Sometimes it might fit more or less, too often it doesn't.
Plus you can't teach people a personality that tries to understand a person with the openness and humbleness that is required.
Not every student and too many professors are maybe just don't have the right amount of capacity to differentiate when it is about people. And if people feel misunderstood they lose trust which is the fundament for any therapy.
I think those are few of the problems.
 
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TheSomebody

TheSomebody

...
Sep 28, 2020
283
Your comment is ignorant if not downright insulting; you're basically telling people to pull themselves up by the bootstraps even if they are incapable of doing so and even if they are a victim of horrific circumstances. Your situation is not the same as everyone elses and you frankly sound like one of the thousands of people that write vain self-help books making the claim: "If I can do it, then you can too!" despite those people already being capable of helping themselves.
that woman has a habit of behaving in this passive-aggressive way towards others members. It is not the first time and it will not be the last.
 
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Emily_Numb

Emily_Numb

Wizard
Jan 14, 2020
654
Your comment is ignorant if not downright insulting; you're basically telling people to pull themselves up by the bootstraps even if they are incapable of doing so and even if they are a victim of horrific circumstances. Your situation is not the same as everyone elses and you frankly sound like one of the thousands of people that write vain self-help books making the claim: "If I can do it, then you can too!" despite those people already being capable of helping themselves.



That's fine, but don't expect people to want to live when neither Psychology or society offers any meaningful form of help for the disadvantaged. The suicide rate will continue rising exponentially until people get something other than empty words and generic life advice you can find on google.
I'm not saying people can't CTB. I'm not saying it's a case of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps either. Fixing your life is hard work. creating a reason to survive each day. As someone who survived a suicide attempt in November last year and spent 5 days in life support, I know!

Yes I grew up in 'horrific circumstances' who has lived with Complex PTSD, MDD, bulimia, body dysmorphia and BPD for over 25 years, life isn't easy. But the minute I stop putting any effort it, abusing my body and health, it rapidly deteriorates.

As for being a 'vain self help' type person, yes I do help myself. It's all that keeps me alive.
 
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KuriGohan&Kamehameha

KuriGohan&Kamehameha

想死不能 - 想活不能
Nov 23, 2020
1,682
As others have said, Psychiatry and Psychology are different. Psychiatrists can prescribe medication, while Psychologists are only lisenced to practice therapy and offer ways of coping that do not involve pharmaceutical intervention.

However, these two specialisms come from the same side of the coin when it comes to the fact that both of them are entrenched in the concept of diseases originating in "the mind".

There is an article floating out there somewhere about why Psychiatrists resist merging with Neurology, they seem to distance themselves from the idea of purely physical, somatic ailments causing someone to have a distressed mental state, I suppose because research is incredibly lacking in regards to mental ailments.

Likewise, many psychiatrists and psychologists seem to neglect very important environmental and socioeconomic factors that would rationally make a person depressed, scared, miserable, and anxious. I find it akin to scolding a person who recoils when they touch a hot stove. Your brain's natural response is to send out signals of pain in response to the damaging stimuli that has just burned the skin, you can't really control that reaction.

When people who are poor, alone disabled, underemployed or unemployed, marginalized, being abused, neglected, and so on and so forth seek assistance from the mental health industry, a lot of them are told they are ill and are either medicated unnecessarily or forced into things like CBT which tells them their negative feelings are cognitive distortions. When feeling awful and depressed in those situations is a completely natural response. If your environment is godawful, it is hard to delude yourself and pretend everything is peachy instead.

So instead of giving those people tangible help that would improve the mental anguish caused by their circumstances, or simply trying to provide symptom relief for things like lethargy, panic attacks, and loss of appetite, we tell them they are diseased. There is a serious lack of pragmatic help in these fields. People who need human connections aren't given opportunities for developing social skills besides their artificial interactions with the therapist. The impoverished aren't being given financial assistance. The unemployed aren't being given references and assistance with gaining employment.

I do believe medications and therapies have their place in some situations. I lived with a violent schizophrenic, who absolutely needed to be on a low dosage of Antipsychotics or else everyone in the family would be continually tormented by them. People who are violent or having extreme hallucinations do need pharmaceuticals to manage their conditions in the majority of cases. Likewise, Lithium can be helpful to some bipolar people. Yet, I think SSRIs are handed out like candy, and rarely alleviate the problem because the efficacy seems to be marginally higher than a placebo. A good number of serotonin receptors are in the GI tract, so I got nothing out of those medications except further illness.

Also, psychiatry truly lacks reliable diagnostic tools and relies on very subjective criteria. There are no blood tests, no scans, no biopsies, and things like the DSMV are often far too broad and speculative. I was seeing many different psychiatrists from age 13 to 20 and it took 6 years for them to order a laboratory test for me.

By then it was too late, I've had neuropathy for years now and it was very likely kickstarted by the fact I had dangerously low vitamin b12 levels for years and no general doctor or psychiatrist would give me a blood test, insisting my symptoms were psychosomatic.

Sure, these disciplines are not lobotomizing people anymore or locking women in prisons for disobeying their husbands under the guise that this behavior was lunacy and insanity.

However there are still human rights abuses going on every day in psychiatric wards. People being put in restraints because they're suicidal, forced drugging and physical exams that can traunatize a vunerable person, gaslighting, verbal abuse, the list goes on and on. We should strive to criticise psychology and pyschiatry to improve them, not shrug our shoulders and say, "well at least we aren't living in the barbaric times of lobotomies anymore!"

People airing their grievances against these professions on this forum doesn't mean that you personally have to stop engaging with these services or question their benefit to you, especially not if you've improved with voluntary therapy or psych meds and whatnot.

This discussion is not about those who personally benefited from psychiatry or psychology and thus see no issue with it, it is about the people who are receiving subpar, lackluster, un-scientific, and quite frankly, shitty care. Individuals who want things to change, and want to push for better treatments, diagnostic criteria, and services aren't going to impede someone from accessing things like talk therapy and SSRIs if they personally want those options for themselves and find them helpful.

But when it seems like the entire world does nothing but victim blame those who got no results from these things, and insists that it is a deficit of willpower and desire to change, that is the problem. Telling people they need to keep throwing out money to try a million different therapists is appalling. If you sent a plumber out to fix a leaky pipe and he couldn't do it, you wouldn't have to call 30 different plumbers to get the job done, would you? So why don't we hold counselors to the same standards?

I get that the science hasn't progressed far enough to understand complex cognitive processes and abnormalities. I am studying a Neuroscience degree, and I know how very little we actually know about things. Yet, we shouldn't put people in harms way and subject them to invalidation and gaslighting because of this. I blame stoicism for creating this falsehood that one can be in total control of their every thought and emotion. Sometimes, most of the time actually, that isn't the case. My severe ptsd isn't going away after reading some self help books about loving yourself.

You can't treat a malfunction of the fight or flight response with self help and mindfulness mantras. Neither can you fix derelict living conditions by popping a handful of pills. This is the dichotomy that psychiatry and psychology have plagued themselves with.

You aren't stupid for being skeptical of these things.
 
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Spiral

Spiral

Experienced
Jan 22, 2021
269
I personally think this more complex than "it's awful and completely devoid of worth" just as much as there's more to it than "it can be beneficial". both perceptions are worth taking into account.
in my experience, absolutely, invalidating happens, useless positivity is spouted, etc., but imo they try all those approaches both because perhaps some client at some point seemed to be helped by them, and they do to a point need to assess the level and variety of 'help' one might need -- talking about psychology. on psychiatry, some people are helped with medication, and usually there is a lot of trial and error to find what does help at all. and there will always be people who either don't feel comfortable with taking medication or medication simply doesn't benefit them enough to take the accompanying risks.
this is so much more than a 'black and white' issue and to treat it as such to me says whoever is speaking on it that way either is refusing to admit it is a nuanced conversation- sometimes it can help, sometimes not. and who you interact with for that care does play an important role.
additionally, I think it's a bit silly to turn one's nose up at medicine only to suggest religion. both can be subjective and neither are good blanket statements to make as a 'cure all'.
my point here: it's all subjective. it's not going to work universally for everyone, individual situations will always require unique solutions, even if the solution is to arrive at the conclusion that whatever form of help one might be trying to make work might not be best suited for them as an individual.
can we maybe try to look at this complicated issue from as many sides as possible??
all of this 'one extreme vs the other' nonsense is just as nonsensical as therapeutic approaches (medication or talk therapy, or both combined) being regarded as one size fits all.
/facepalm
I have to agree with you, it's not totally devoid of worth. The research that has been done into mental health issues is helpful, it's great to be able to google the DSM 5 and do a bit of mental health bingo to see if any of your issues are well documented. It helped me a lot anyway. A named thing is a tamed thing.
I think the reason we have to endure the useless positivity is that many people seek mental health support after something bad has happened in their life and the mental health support currently available actually is helpful for that, like if you are a mentally healthy person who is bereaved or really struggling at the moment and you get therapy or SSRI meds for short term use I think it actually works and that makes the mental health professionals think 'ok well this method works so we will give it to everyone'' but actual mental illness is not the same as grief (although both are horrible) and the majority of the time having talk therapy, doing some colouring books, eating a salad and going for a run is not enough to fix it.
 
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EmbraceOfTheVoid

EmbraceOfTheVoid

Part Time NEET - Full Time Suicidal
Mar 29, 2020
689
@KuriGohan&Kamehameha

I agree with everything you said, I couldn't have explained things in such a concise and coherent way if I tried for a year.

Telling people they need to keep throwing out money to try a million different therapists is appalling. If you sent a plumber out to fix a leaky pipe and he couldn't do it, you wouldn't have to call 30 different plumbers to get the job done, would you? So why don't we hold counselors to the same standards?

Not only are they not held to the same standards to be competent at their job but they are absolved of responsibility for harming and "legally" abusing their clients. If you went to a medical doctor with third degree burns and they helped you by padding you with dirty bandaids; their license would be taken away, eventually anyways.

My severe ptsd isn't going away after reading some self help books about loving yourself.

You can't treat a malfunction of the fight or flight response with self help and mindfulness mantras. Neither can you fix derelict living conditions by popping a handful of pills. This is the dichotomy that psychiatry and psychology have plagued themselves with.

Exactly! I can read endless psychology books, research various vitamins, journal, meditate, and try to pretend that the world is a magical place but the reality is that those things do nothing to address my original problem. Unless Psychiatry, Psychology, Neurology, Neurobiology or whatever can address being stuck in a perpetual state of the freeze response then all of those small steps realistically do nothing for my well being and they don't make my life worth living.
 
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sourpink

sourpink

Student
Aug 27, 2020
148
I have to agree with you, it's not totally devoid of worth. The research that has been done into mental health issues is helpful, it's great to be able to google the DSM 5 and do a bit of mental health bingo to see if any of your issues are well documented. It helped me a lot anyway. A named thing is a tamed thing.
I think the reason we have to endure the useless positivity is that many people seek mental health support after something bad has happened in their life and the mental health support currently available actually is helpful for that, like if you are a mentally healthy person who is bereaved or really struggling at the moment and you get therapy or SSRI meds for short term use I think it actually works and that makes the mental health professionals think 'ok well this method works so we will give it to everyone'' but actual mental illness is not the same as grief (although both are horrible) and the majority of the time having talk therapy, doing some colouring books, eating a salad and going for a run is not enough to fix it.
exactly.
of course we should encourage a healthy amount of skepticism while also understanding there can be benefits at the same time.
psychology is ever-evolving, and I feel it best to both question things as well as utilize what is individually beneficial.
I'm by no means saying psychiatry or medicine is a solution, same goes for talk sessions. these things require criticism in order to evolve and better serve those in need. and of course, each person as a patient will have different needs.
there are still inherent problematic traits within psychology and psychiatry, and it is of course important that we voice the concerns we have. that doesn't mean we cannot simultaneously benefit to varying degrees.
and I do love some of the points @KuriGohan&Kamehameha brought up- we must remain critical in order to foster growth within these communities and their approaches. there have absolutely been improvements made, but we deserve better still. and things do not change when the target audience remains complacent.
there is a lot to consider on this topic, and much to be improved upon.
I meant no disrespect in my initial response, I do realize it likely sounded abrasive to some. to give some context to my response, I've been both benefiting and put through the wringer for about a decade from these communities and their approaches. it is absolutely a complex subject and what helps me may harm another and vice versa. what I had hoped the take-away from my initial response would be was that such an individualized need of course requires an equally individualized solution. there is no possible way to promote or advise against these communities as no two people will react exactly alike.

edit-- also want to add that in my experience, questioning everything within talk sessions and psychiatric settings is generally helpful as a patient. question why the therapist or psychiatrist is using the approach they are. research your medications and potential diagnoses. do not blindly accept or deny any of it. do your own research and be upfront about concerns, questions, and any disbelief you might have.
then again, doing just that has in past had me labeled as 'difficult' to treat. so, as with everything, proceed with caution and try to assess personal risk as best as possible.
 
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Emily_Numb

Emily_Numb

Wizard
Jan 14, 2020
654
Maybe I should find out where you live and kill you too.
You should read my posts, retard. The psych industry has ruined my life.
I'd love to hunt you down and torture you like it tortured me.
Fuck off.
This is totally over the top. You may have had issues with psychiatrists but to issue a threat like that is just uncalled for.
I can see your angry but maybe don't post on a public forum if you're not happy to get different opinions? This isn't an echo chamber.
 
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Spiral

Spiral

Experienced
Jan 22, 2021
269
This is totally over the top. You may have had issues with psychiatrists but to issue a threat like that is just uncalled for.
I can see your angry but maybe don't post on a public forum if you're not happy to get different opinions? This isn't an echo chamber.
I agree its a bit over the top but also that DrWho guy was throwing insults and trolling and I'm surprised it took so long for someone to get mad at him tbh
 
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Emily_Numb

Emily_Numb

Wizard
Jan 14, 2020
654
I agree its a bit over the top but also that DrWho guy was throwing insults and trolling and I'm surprised it took so long for someone to get mad at him tbh
OP posted and got reactions. That's what happens on a forum. You don't have to react in a hostile way to every other individual who disagrees. Would be a full time job doing that.
Make bold statements, you're going to get bold answers. To threaten to torture someone is absolutely unacceptable! It goes beyond aggressive, it's inciting real life violence towards another member.
 
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Spiral

Spiral

Experienced
Jan 22, 2021
269
this from Drwho was pretty hostile:
If you have a bad therapist, it also says little. Find a new one.
The fact that you typed " death to psychiatrists and psychologists" makes you a piece of shit like a lot of morons residing in this forum with the intellectual capacity of a turd. You disgust me.


He also replied to me like this:
Are you kidding me. You expect from a health professional to find a solution for your lack of money, bad relations with your family, your drinking problems, your lack of education of manners, your boring job, your bad wife/husband, your bad financial decisions, your anxiety etc etc
Ok so what if you get a diagnosis. Let's call what you have BOB. So what ?



Disagreement and different opinions are fine but putting words into other peoples mouths and being disrespectful and insulting is not ok. Obviously, neither are threats but you can't go around being insulting and expect nobody to react. When people are opening up about their deepest emotions and concerns on a suicide forum it's not really ethical to shit on them.
 
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Donk

Donk

Useless since day 1
Jan 3, 2020
1,129
I had a psychiatrist tell me psychiatry is a "weak" science :pfff:
 
muffin222

muffin222

Enlightened
Mar 31, 2020
1,188
I disagree completely. Personally, I've made huge strides in my levels of self-awareness, self-understanding, and my mental and emotional stability through therapy, through studying psychology, and through subsequently applying the tools I've learned.

Psychology may not provide much benefit for you personally, but to proclaim blanket statements such as "it makes things worse" and then speak as if your subjective opinion is a universal fact helps no one. It's simply not a true statement. I'm living proof of that. Many others find benefit, relief, and enlightenment through psychology or psychiatry as well.

Before I received a formal diagnosis of PTSD, I viewed my normal trauma responses, behaviors, and thought patterns as undeniable evidence that I am a bad, worthless, crazy, stupid, hopeless person rather that what they truly were: valid, normal, and understandable reactions to overwhelmingly stressful and painful circumstances and events.

Without the aid of a therapist diagnosing and validating my untreated PTSD, I would have lived out my entire life crippled by self-blame and shame. I would have lived under a cloak of darkness, entirely unaware that my pain and suffering could be traced back to traumatic events in my life that re-wired my brain to react and respond in dysfunctional ways and that through therapy and self-work, I could actually re-mold my brain to react differently.

Psychology is far from a pseudo-science. The fact that you failed to glean any benefit from psychology or psychiatry means one thing and one thing alone: it doesn't work for you personally. Perhaps something else will.
 
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Spiral

Spiral

Experienced
Jan 22, 2021
269
I disagree completely. Personally, I've made huge strides in my levels of self-awareness, self-understanding, and my mental and emotional stability through therapy, through studying psychology, and through subsequently applying the tools I've learned.

Psychology may not provide much benefit for you personally, but to proclaim blanket statements such as "it makes things worse" and then speak as if your subjective opinion is a universal fact helps no one. It's simply not a true statement. I'm living proof of that. Many others find benefit, relief, and enlightenment through psychology or psychiatry as well.

Before I received a formal diagnosis of PTSD, I viewed my normal trauma responses, behaviors, and thought patterns as undeniable evidence that I am a bad, worthless, crazy, stupid, hopeless person rather that what they truly were: valid, normal, and understandable reactions to overwhelmingly stressful and painful circumstances and events.

Without the aid of a therapist diagnosing and validating my untreated PTSD, I would have lived out my entire life crippled by self-blame and shame. I would have lived under a cloak of darkness, entirely unaware that my pain and suffering could be traced back to traumatic events in my life that re-wired my brain to react and respond in dysfunctional ways and that through therapy and self-work, I could actually re-mold my brain to react differently.

Psychology is far from a pseudo-science. The fact that you failed to glean any benefit from psychology or psychiatry means one thing and one thing alone: it doesn't work for you personally. Perhaps something else will.
This is exactly why I feel it's so important to get a diagnosis for myself because it does help with the shame when you can understand why you behave the way you do and it can even lead to recovery once you know what is wrong you can start thinking about how to move forward.
I have heard about psychology being a pseudo-Science before but I think the main reason people believe that is it apparently hasn't been proven that antidepressants work and it also hasn't been proven that depression is caused by a chemical imbalance. Right now most of it is a theory, but we gotta get through the theory stage to reach the truth. I don't think there will ever be a pill to cure it though :( I do think that if there was the option to live in a separate community that was completely cut off from modern society and its constraints, most depressed people would choose to try living there instead of ctb.
 
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Donk

Donk

Useless since day 1
Jan 3, 2020
1,129
I mean naturally there is an obvious negative bias towards psychology and psychiatry on a Suicide Site. I doubt anyone who has benefited and recovered would google suicide methods online I wouldn't say its totally ineffective but psychiatry does deserve some criticism. Especially with doctors pushing patients to pop pills before suggesting alternative treatments.
 
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muffin222

muffin222

Enlightened
Mar 31, 2020
1,188
This is exactly why I feel it's so important to get a diagnosis for myself because it does help with the shame when you can understand why you behave the way you do and it can even lead to recovery once you know what is wrong you can start thinking about how to move forward.
I have heard about psychology being a pseudo-Science before but I think the main reason people believe that is it apparently hasn't been proven that antidepressants work and it also hasn't been proven that depression is caused by a chemical imbalance. Right now most of it is a theory, but we gotta get through the theory stage to reach the truth. I don't think there will ever be a pill to cure it though :( I do think that if there was the option to live in a separate community that was completely cut off from modern society and its constraints, most depressed people would choose to try living there instead of ctb.
I think a lot of professionals are beginning to move away from the "chemical imbalance" theory because, as you said, there's simply no proof to back it. Truthfully, we don't fully understand what causes mental illness.

Certain genes have been implicated in the development of some mental illnesses, but why those genes become "active" in certain people and stay dormant in others is unclear. I think that, most likely, there is no one truth behind depression or any other mental illness.
I think every case is a unique blend of circumstances, levels of resilience, risk factors vs protective factors, genetics, and in-born temperament converging to cause the development of mental illness and depression in certain people.


The idea that a pill alone can target and cure the root source in every person or even most people is a fantasy, at best. I'm curious to see how the field of psychiatry evolves as we gain greater insight into the brain and its workings.

But yes, please do seek out a diagnosis from a credible professional if you have the means to do so :hug: It's very validating.
 
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Amumu

Amumu

Ctb - temporary solution for a permanent problem
Aug 29, 2020
2,624
THANK YOU! It's as if I wrote this myself!
when will people in here get with the program and comprehend that a psychiatrist isn't there to sit and chat to you about the meaning of life? I feel like i'm banging my head against a wall when I explain this. They are a medical professional similar to a consultant. Therapists are like the nurses.

You need to get off your ass and change therapists if you don't find that particular one useful in anyway. Not doing so is just complacent and quite honest early, lazy. People need to take charge of their own health, well-being and recovery. You have to actively participate in this! It's not easy, it's damned hard work... But you can't expect a psychiatrist, psychologist, therapists or anyone else for that matter, drag you kicking and screaming into feeling better about life.
Folk need to stop blaming others for their situation and look inwards as see what you can do to improve your life.
Through actively trying to improve my mental health by reading up on news and researching medicines and studies, I have sought out ketamine therapy in the UK, only one place doing to at the time and made the financial and time commitment to participate in this treatment. A 2 ¾ hour drive each way once a month.

I've found this forum useful but my God, there are some people who need to stop playing the violin for themselves and TRY to sort their lives out. Seeing people talk about suicide because they don't like living at home with their parents, haven't got a job after being picky as hell or not the relevant qualifications, being dumped, not getting laid etc is mind blowing. Have some perspective ffs. Don't expect life or people owe you anything. you have to go out there and get it!
Living at home with your parents and being a virgin at thirty, unemployment and being dumped are valid reasons, imo.
Suicidal thoughts should never be invalidated. Otherwise it only worsens the situation and increases them even more.

It isn't mind blowing, since suffering is always subjective. I know some people who ctb after being dumped.
And I'm not the only one on this site. The simple fact that people have suicidal thoughts shows something's serious.

As for psychiatry, it can entirely ruin people's lives, but I do believe it's overall positive.
For me meds are rather positive, but therapy and psychology are completely useless.
 
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Donk

Donk

Useless since day 1
Jan 3, 2020
1,129
I think a lot of professionals are beginning to move away from the "chemical imbalance" theory because, as you said, there's simply no proof to back it. Truthfully, we don't fully understand what causes mental illness.

Certain genes have been implicated in the development of some mental illnesses, but why those genes become "active" in certain people and stay dormant in others is unclear. I think that, most likely, there is no one truth behind depression or any other mental illness.
I think every case is a unique blend of circumstances, levels of resilience, risk factors vs protective factors, genetics, and in-born temperament converging to cause the development of mental illness and depression in certain people.


The idea that a pill alone can target and cure the root source in every person or even most people is a fantasy, at best. I'm curious to see how the field of psychiatry evolves as we gain greater insight into the brain and its workings.

But yes, please do seek out a diagnosis from a credible professional if you have the means to do so :hug: It's very validating.

There is a lot of attention on the effectiveness of Psychedelics. K and Shrooms are being studied extensively as an alternative treatment to meds.
 
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muffin222

muffin222

Enlightened
Mar 31, 2020
1,188
There is a lot of attention on the effectiveness of Psychedelics. K and Shrooms are being studied extensively as an alternative treatment to meds.
I think this is a great step in the right direction. I don't believe that medication alone should be the first-line treatment for every depressed or mentally ill person. I hope psychedelics become de-criminalized and more widely accessible for people to explore for themselves
 
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Amumu

Amumu

Ctb - temporary solution for a permanent problem
Aug 29, 2020
2,624
There is a lot of attention on the effectiveness of Psychedelics. K and Shrooms are being studied extensively as an alternative treatment to meds.
Believe it or not, but there are similarities between sleeping pills and shrooms.
That's why sleeping pills can bring about hallucinations for some people.

As for K, it remains a very toxic substance. It's used for horses, actually.
Don't believe substances are better because they aren't mainstream.

Same for MDMA. (I didn't even know it was used.)
Studies are necessary, though.
 
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