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TAW122

TAW122

Emissary of the right to die.
Aug 30, 2018
6,630
While this isn't a new topic, I actually had an interesting analogy about how IVC (Involuntary Commitment) is similar to false imprisonment and many violations of civil liberties and unconstitutional acts against a human being. I'm writing this thread to illustrate the horrors of IVC by comparing it to other scenarios in which one's civil rights and freedoms are violated. I hope this will expose the real horrors and also expose the hypocrisy in pro-lifer's logic. I seriously doubt pro-lifers would be ok if their rights were unconstitutionally violated especially without due process! Even though I have never been subjected to such treatment (if I was, I would probably already be dead, in prison, or worse, but I digress), I heard many horror stories and testimony from people who have been through the system.

What is IVC (Involuntary Commitment) or psych holds?
First off, let's describe what IVC is, from the process, to the treatment, and of course, the aftermath (consequences and fallout). IVC or Involuntary Commitment is where one is deemed to be a threat to oneself or others and are detained against their will for a temporary amount of time. It is usually for a short stay (up to 72 hours) and during the stay one is treated like a criminal albeit one has not necessarily committed any crimes or done anything illegal. When one is admitted, one is stripped down, searched, and then given a gown to wear and sent to a room with a bed. One loses many privileges and contact from the outside world (the amount of security and privileges depends on the facility of course). Typically, one is held there until they are deemed stable and safe enough to be discharged (released from the facility). During the stay, one is essentially reduced to that of a prisoner and at the mercy of the nurses, doctors, technicians, and medical professionals at whatever unit or facility they are at. They cannot eat, sleep, drink, or do activities on their own free will, instead they are put to a regimen of activities by the healthcare professionals at the facility. Then after they are discharged, they will not only have this in their medical record and background record (which will negatively impact certain rights and privileges), they are then saddled with a hefty hospital bill (in which they are responsible for). Sure, people claim "insurance this and that", but in simpler terms, the patient is still responsible for the bill for something they did not want or chosen under duress (e.g. when a patient is threatened with going voluntarily or being involuntarily taken against their will, which is really just a false choice as both choices lead to the same (or similar) outcome).

Furthermore, to quote another poster on SaSu, this post linked and shown below summarizes the subjective and political nature of diagnosis.

"DSM was described by one expert as "not scientific but a product of unscrupulous politics and bureaucracy," further stating: "In place of scientific findings, the DSM uses expert consensus to determine what mental disorders exist and how you can recognize them. Disorders come into the book the same way a law becomes part of the book of statutes. People suggest it, discuss it, and vote on it."[7] That's not science. "

This further proves that the DSM-V is a manual of subjective diagnoses over human behavior (quite a few of which are natural responses) to the environment around them and the circumstances that surround one's life, and an attempt to pathologize people who do not meet or conform to the experts or normies subjective way of life. The most disturbing thing is the weaponization of this manual of diagnoses in order to deprive another person's civil rights, liberties, and freedom without due process of law. Furthermore, even the treatment of people suspected (again, with no due process) of these diagnoses and behaviors deemed socially unacceptable is akin to those that are suspected of committing an unlawful activity despite the fact that there were no unlawful activity present.

List of things (comparison to violation of civil rights, liberties, and freedom)
Here are the things that would be akin to violation of civil rights, liberties, and freedom from the IVC and psych hold (PH) itself. Then I will use a similar example outside of IVC and PH for comparison.

(IVC, PH) You are automatically suspected of unsound mind and choices are made for you, and this is before being proven that you are of unsound mind.

Would you be ok if someone deemed you unsound of mind because of your (un)healthy lifestyle such as eating junk food, not exercising enough, and then decisions are made (against your will) for your diet and lifestyle?

(IVC, PH) You are given a choice to go willingly (voluntarily) or be physically detained and then transported to a medical facility (the hospital, clinic, psych ward, etc.).

Would you be ok if someone gave you two choices to comply with whatever their request is and if you refused, they would still follow through with their action, including using physical force to get you to comply with their demands?

(IVC, PH) Once at the facility, you are invasively searched during admission or intake, presumably for the staff, other patients, and the patient themselves' safety. Then afterwards, assigned a room and held there for several days.

Would you be ok if someone violated your privacy, invasively searched you and then afterwards, locked you up in a room (with some basic necessities and/or checking on you periodically to ensure you are alright)?

(IVC, PH) During one's stay at the psych ward, one is expected to follow the program set up by the mental health professionals and abide by them. Any deviation from it is met with varying degrees of punishment, including longer stays.

Would you be ok if someone decides how you spend your day, what you eat, how you go about your day, and then threatened you to comply with their demands or they use physical force to instill complicity in their demands?

(IVC, PH) Sometime after discharge, the patient now has a record in his/her background and medical history, which will show up in some background checks, thus affecting their civil rights, professional opportunities, and other social and civil consequences (not being able to legally own a firearm, cannot hold certain professional licenses, cannot get certain clearance for certain jobs/careers, not being able to adopt, etc.). But that's not all, then (in the US) they are saddled with medical bills for a treatment that they did not want (or chose under duress).

Would you be ok if someone decides to permanently bar you from a certain activity because of some subjective criteria and then after the unwanted treatment and service rendered to you, you are then responsible for the bill for something you never wanted to begin with?


Note: What I'm saying (below) in the following paragraph is aimed at pro-lifers themselves.

With all that said, if you (the pro-lifer) answered NO to any of those questions, then congratulations, you are a hypocrite! Basically you (the pro-lifer) would not wish to have any of these actions done against you, yet you would be ok with not only violating (including someone who is 'suspected' but not proven to be unsound of mind) someone else's freedom and rights in the name of safety and your own (subjective) criteria of what you think is best for them, regardless of their wishes.

Summary and conclusion
In conclusion, pro-lifers would never agree to these things done to them, including but not limited to, the violation of their free will, civil liberties, and other kinds of treatment against their will, but seemingly accepting of the same kind of treatment towards suicidal people (even 'suspected' ones). Therefore, this analogy also proves their hypocrisy, though I am preaching to the SaSu choir here. Let me know your thoughts.
 
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PurpleParadigm

PurpleParadigm

The glow is an illusion
Mar 22, 2023
201
This is beyong horrible and if someone did this to me I would off myself immediately upon discharge.

In the UK it is called sectioning and I found a brief article with further reading on it here:

During my recent police wellfare check they said you must be caught in the act of CTB to be sectioned. I don't know how much it affects your life in terms of background checks etc.
 
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TAW122

TAW122

Emissary of the right to die.
Aug 30, 2018
6,630
This is beyong horrible and if someone did this to me I would off myself immediately upon discharge.

In the UK it is called sectioning and I found a brief article with further reading on it here:

During my recent police wellfare check they said you mist be caught in the act of CTB to be sectioned. I don't know how much it affects your life in terms of background checks etc.
I think in the US (and I could be wrong), if law enforcement believes or suspects that the person may be unwell or at risk, they can ask the person to go to the ER, the hospital, or mental health facility to be evaluated or be taken there by force (so essentially you are left with a false choice, comply by going willingly or be physically forced to go unwillingly). As for it affecting one's life, if it was involuntary or if the person has a court adjudication over the case (found mentally incompetent), then it would show up in one's background check. This would affect their ability to legally own a firearm, affect them from obtaining certain licenses, certain other things (like adoption, or other miscellaneous activities), and not to mention the social backlash from people around the person finding out (ostracization, outcast and rejection from certain circles, abandonment), and other unwanted social consequences. Basically they killed the person's character, reputation, and what not. It really does affect one's life, as it makes doing things that everyday people take for granted much harder.
 
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Little_Suzy

Little_Suzy

Amphibious
May 1, 2023
831
I'm going to IP next week. Thank you for sharing.

Can someone explain how voluntary IP affects a background check? What do you get refused after IP?
 
TAW122

TAW122

Emissary of the right to die.
Aug 30, 2018
6,630
I'm going to IP next week. Thank you for sharing.

Can someone explain how voluntary IP affects a background check? What do you get refused after IP?
Not a lawyer nor is this legal advice, but afaik if it is voluntary, then it shouldn't show up in a background check. However, if it was INVOLUNTARY (such as being forced by a court order, adjudicated by a judge to be mentally incompetent/defective, etc.), then it would affect it. Mainly it affects their firearm rights (in the US), but it can also affect other things such as getting clearance for certain jobs (government or security related jobs, or jobs with a lot of responsibility, important positions, etc.).
 
FuneralCry

FuneralCry

She wished that she never existed...
Sep 24, 2020
34,806
I just find it to be so horrible how we exist in a society that punishes suicidal people simply for wanting to die, psych wards really do sound like horrific prisons, even know planning to die isn't a crime it's really treated like one, it's such a hellish world we exist in.
 
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timetodie24

Experienced
Apr 14, 2023
247
This is beyong horrible and if someone did this to me I would off myself immediately upon discharge.

In the UK it is called sectioning and I found a brief article with further reading on it here:

During my recent police wellfare check they said you must be caught in the act of CTB to be sectioned. I don't know how much it affects your life in terms of background checks etc.
Shows what little police know about sectioning. You don't have to caught in the act or even suicidal . It depends on a lot of factors. However, often it is after/during attempts because there's not enough beds. If you go to A&E saying your suicidal, most likely you'll go home with a list of helplines or referral to crisis team. Conversely, if someone is suicidal but refusing all help, doesn't have family support, isn't taking meds, they could be sectioned.

.I wasn't sectioned after a failed attempt where I ended up in resus . Yet I was after barely starting an attempt another time, it was so stupid. Some people who aren't suicidal at all could be sectioned. Like if someone is manic, they might actually be the opposite of suicidal, but so excited that they act recklessly so could be sectioned.

I think more than how far you are in terms of CTB process/thoughts is less of the decision maker. It's more about if you have support at home, insight, capacity, diagnosis (like with BPD they often refuse to admit them), and also professionals personal opinion of you.

In terms of background checks, sections resulting in admission to psych wards (e.g S2 or S3) should only show medical/social care records . DBS checks that employers do can't access your medical records . If you're sectioned by police to be taken to hospital further assessment (e.g S135/6 ) this could show up on an enhanced DBS check (e.g if working with vulnerable people) under additional info. However, additional info is under the discretion of the police contacted for DBS info, and should only include info that's necessary, so most don't include it. if your job requires an occupational health check (e.g NHS), and you disclose mental health issues then they might ask for access to your medical records and then OH would know (but hiring manager wouldn't).

Sorry to go on a bit and off topic. It's just frustrating when people are like ' don't tell your therapist your suicidal you'll be sectioned' . Like in the UK that's not going to happen. Often people scream for help, make multiple attempts and they're still sent home with a helpline number.

The system is such a mess, like some autistic people or people with learning difficulties have been sectioned for several years or more despite having no MH issues just because there's no supported living and social care for them. Yet i've heard of people who are suicidal but unsure and ask for help to avoid acting, and beg for admission are refused and then they die.
 
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Pidgeons_Sparrows

Pidgeons_Sparrows

-flying rat
Apr 16, 2023
628
took the words straight outta my mouth homie