Pain, suicidality and this community

[GrumpyFrog]

This is a retelling of a post I made elsewhere then deleted because it was indicated as unwelcome and derailing the thread. I will try to make it work outside of the context, because while it might not be good for that discussion, I feel like I have something important to say. (Which doesn't happen often, most of my gazillion posts are just bitching, whining, and miscellaneous BS to be honest.)

I have been a member of this forum for quite some time and observed many people come and go. And in spite of the very morbid nature of this place, there is no reason to assume that most members that left actually left this planet as well. There was a number of people returning here after a long break, and their stories further point me towards the assumption that most people that stop using this site eventually stop coming because they are no longer that interested in the topic of CTB and that is a good thing. Sometimes they get help, sometimes circumstances change, but whatever it is, they get at least marginally better. Ironically, being here made me feel pretty hopeful for recovery, after seeing several people that were really low recover and move on. Not every single person does. But many do.
Registering here is not signing your own death sentence. This place allows people to share their darkest thoughts that are not allowed anywhere else. This place acknowledges that you are, within reasonable limits, in control of your life and your decisions. We cannot will the death to come, cannot wish the death away and cannot magically make all problems go away or make the pain disappear. But we should all be allowed to make decisions.
There is no meter on the entrance that says "you must be this suicidal to come in". Decision to live is also a valid decision that should be respected. Doubting is okay. Questioning yourself is okay. Not being comfortable with a method is okay (if you don't go around harassing and/or insulting people who disagree). There is only an age restriction. Because you don't need to be in pain "enough" to discuss CTB - you just need to be mature enough to handle the topic. Nobody should be entitled to say "if you can't relate to my particular brand of pain, you're not welcome here". It's probably a good idea not to respond to threads asking for help if you can't sympathize with the OP at all, but other than that, this community is not perfectly homogenous, and that's a good thing.
CTB is not a topic exclusive to mentally ill people. Being mentally ill is not a requirement for being a part of this forum. Neither is desire to die by any means possible, or a certain level of suicidality, however you're measuring it.
I sincerely wish that each and every member of this forum will want to live. Not choose to live because of guilt or fear, but genuinely want to live. I do not believe it is incompatible with knowing methods or seeing CTB as an option. You can know an option exists and not use it anyway.

 

[ph0enix]

I never had the feeling someone gets pushed over the cliff here… the media covering this site as a death culture etc. is wrong

 

[whatevs]

I never had the feeling someone gets pushed over the cliff here… the media covering this site as a death culture etc. is wrong

But it makes for a great sensationalist story!

 

[achromatic]

I feel like it's so often claimed in media or even in pubmeds etc. that suicidality is almost exclusively related to mental illness, that honestly it's even more isolating for people struggling with suicidal ideation. It serves the narrative that suicide is completly preventable, that you just need right meds and therapy, oh and remember - just talk to someone. That's why I'm grateful for this website, because talking about it - no metter what degree of suicidality you experience, would get you shushed even in psych ward. Idk it seems intellectualy dishonest - overlooking things that are impossible or much harder to change, shitty life circumstances and genetics-medicalizing the topic and yes I dare say that most of us will never kill ourself, no metter what we want to belive now, and that's okay.

 

[AnxietyHangover]

I never felt advised, nor pressured, nor conned in any way to ctb by this website. I only found people who feel the same way I do, and who won't lie to me that life is only joy and happiness.

 

[achromatic]

I sometimes even feel less suicidal here - it's the feeling of being understood, finaly relating to someone - also some threads in recovery can be really hopeful and some people stories make me gain distance to my own problems

 

[ksp]

absolutely amazing OP !! i like the way you think (and your self deprecating humor)
and great responses !

society really needs to become more open minded, based on our discussions, and how attacking the root of the problem can have real solutions

 

[HermitLonerGuy]

thanks for the lecture boss.

i said im not going to engage in arguments and debates.

then you go and make a whole ass thread about it.

never does online debates and arguments end well, it justs wastes time and stresses both parties.

I said what i said so sue me.

that guy was being a dismissive ass imo.

without understanding .

if they cant understand why a desperately trapped suicidal person with no methods , fear of failure and stigma of suicide within family would not react normally to the news of being diagnosed with terminal cancer well then theyre too thick headed.

My sister already ctb years ago, so this would also lessen the stigma/shame for my parents.

please drop the drama , il choose to ignore you or this will drag on and not end well.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

thanks for the lecture boss.

i said im not going to engage in arguments and debates.

then you go and make a whole ass thread about it.

never does online debates and arguments end well, it justs wastes time and stresses both parties.

I said what i said so sue me.

that guy was being a dismissive ass imo.

without understanding .

if they cant understand why a desperately trapped suicidal person with no methods , fear of failure and stigma of suicide within family would not react normally to the news of being diagnosed with terminal cancer well then theyre too thick headed.

My sister already ctb years ago, so this would also lessen the stigma/shame for my parents.

please drop the drama , il choose to ignore you or this will drag on and not end well.

Holy guacamole.
I am not sure what is that thing that I made a "whole ass thread about" that makes you come here and argue against your wishes.
I specifically deleted all posts from your thread and created a separate thread of my own to make it clear that the topic of this thread (forum community not being a "death cult" where everyone must want to die by any means possible) has nothing to do with my opinion on you as a person, my opinion on any "that guy" third party or my opinion on whether you are right or wrong about wishing to have terminal cancer. I am not touching the topic of cancer at all anymore, because I guess it's a touchy subject for you. I am not sure how this thread is "drama" and not acceptable.

 

[HermitLonerGuy]

Holy guacamole.
I am not sure what is that thing that I made a "whole ass thread about" that makes you come here and argue against your wishes.
I specifically deleted all posts from your thread and created a separate thread of my own to make it clear that the topic of this thread (forum community not being a "death cult" where everyone must want to die by any means possible) has nothing to do with my opinion on you as a person, my opinion on any "that guy" third party or my opinion on whether you are right or wrong about wishing to have terminal cancer. I am not touching the topic of cancer at all anymore, because I guess it's a touchy subject for you. I am not sure how this thread is "drama" and not acceptable.

have a good day.

 

[nopointinlife]

This is a retelling of a post I made elsewhere then deleted because it was indicated as unwelcome and derailing the thread. I will try to make it work outside of the context, because while it might not be good for that discussion, I feel like I have something important to say. (Which doesn't happen often, most of my gazillion posts are just bitching, whining, and miscellaneous BS to be honest.)

I have been a member of this forum for quite some time and observed many people come and go. And in spite of the very morbid nature of this place, there is no reason to assume that most members that left actually left this planet as well. There was a number of people returning here after a long break, and their stories further point me towards the assumption that most people that stop using this site eventually stop coming because they are no longer that interested in the topic of CTB and that is a good thing. Sometimes they get help, sometimes circumstances change, but whatever it is, they get at least marginally better. Ironically, being here made me feel pretty hopeful for recovery, after seeing several people that were really low recover and move on. Not every single person does. But many do.
Registering here is not signing your own death sentence. This place allows people to share their darkest thoughts that are not allowed anywhere else. This place acknowledges that you are, within reasonable limits, in control of your life and your decisions. We cannot will the death to come, cannot wish the death away and cannot magically make all problems go away or make the pain disappear. But we should all be allowed to make decisions.
There is no meter on the entrance that says "you must be this suicidal to come in". Decision to live is also a valid decision that should be respected. Doubting is okay. Questioning yourself is okay. Not being comfortable with a method is okay (if you don't go around harassing and/or insulting people who disagree). There is only an age restriction. Because you don't need to be in pain "enough" to discuss CTB - you just need to be mature enough to handle the topic. Nobody should be entitled to say "if you can't relate to my particular brand of pain, you're not welcome here". It's probably a good idea not to respond to threads asking for help if you can't sympathize with the OP at all, but other than that, this community is not perfectly homogenous, and that's a good thing.
CTB is not a topic exclusive to mentally ill people. Being mentally ill is not a requirement for being a part of this forum. Neither is desire to die by any means possible, or a certain level of suicidality, however you're measuring it.
I sincerely wish that each and every member of this forum will want to live. Not choose to live because of guilt or fear, but genuinely want to live. I do not believe it is incompatible with knowing methods or seeing CTB as an option. You can know an option exists and not use it anyway.

I agree. Having gone through several psychiatrists and therapists, expressing my feelings knowing I had to limit what I say to avoid getting sent to a mental institution is like cutting off your piss midstream. While I haven't completely said here what is really on my mind during my darkest times, knowing that I have a "safe place" like SS to do it when I really must is reassuring. I hope that everyone here finds comfort, answers, and hope in their journey on whatever path they choose for themselves.

 

[CandyCane]

I never had the feeling someone gets pushed over the cliff here… the media covering this site as a death culture etc. is wrong

Same. I haven't been here that long but it seems like people are either very practical about it, or empathetic. If "professionals" weren't terrified of the topic, maybe it would get further, and maybe the media should cover that instead. "Suicide prevention" policies are disastrous and ignore the reasons people suicide, because a lot of them are the system and psychiatry's fault

 

[GrumpyFrog]

Same. I haven't been here that long but it seems like people are either very practical about it, or empathetic. If "professionals" weren't terrified of the topic, maybe it would get further, and maybe the media should cover that instead. "Suicide prevention" policies are disastrous and ignore the reasons people suicide, because a lot of them are the system and psychiatry's fault

Exactly. The very idea of suicide prevention is not bad by definition, at least I really don't think so. It's just that the way it is implemented in our times is an absolute disaster that, if we don't mess it all up with nukes and don't slide back into the dark ages, is probably going to terrify our descendants the same way "insane asylums" of XIX century terrify us now, with how little is actually done to effectively address the reason why someone doesn't want to live, and how much is put into just physically forcing them to stay alive. Curiously, traditional therapy talks a lot about the importance of the feeling of being in control and having choices regarding literally any other topic. And the also about the importance of authenticity.
I sincerely hope that eventually suicide prevention evolves more towards helping people find positive reasons to live, rather than just shutting them up and physically keeping them from dying.

 

[Chinaski]

that guy was being a dismissive ass imo.

without understanding .

Not arsed about arguing with you across multiple threads but if you're going to do this manipulative crap across the forum and specifically discuss me with others in this way please have the integrity to tag me in so l can exercise a right to reply, cheers

 

[HermitLonerGuy]

Not arsed about arguing with you across multiple threads but if you're going to do this manipulative crap across the forum and specifically discuss me with others in this way please have the integrity to tag me in so l can exercise a right to reply, cheers

thanks for your response, enjoy your day further!

 

[FuneralCry]

It really does irritate me when people assume that everyone who wants to ctb is 'mentally ill'. That point of view is so ignorant and invalidating to me. There's nothing mentally ill about seeing life for what it really is, to me life is objectively horrible and could never be worth it for me. I see no value in reaching an very old age, it's not appealing at all. For me suicide is the more rational decision as I see suffering as being something negative and something to be avoided, and suffering is inevitable in life.

But yes, everyone has their own reasons for visiting this forum and that fact should be respected. We all have different experiences of life after all. I don't have any problem with non suicidal people being on here, but there has been some that have came on these forums just to make people who are suffering feel worse, I've seen that a few times. I believe that nowhere in this world is really free from the cruelty of people and that is an unfortunate fact.

But in general, this forum does respect suicide as a choice and it's beneficial for people to be able to access method information so they have the option of ways to leave and they can decide what is best for themselves. Having method information being able to be accessed will mean that people are less likely to fail an attempt and end up with damage.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

It really does irritate me when people assume that everyone who wants to ctb is 'mentally ill'. That point of view is so ignorant and invalidating to me. There's nothing mentally ill about seeing life for what it really is, to me life is objectively horrible and could never be worth it for me. I see no value in reaching an very old age, it's not appealing at all. For me suicide is the more rational decision as I see suffering as being something negative and something to be avoided, and suffering is inevitable in life.

But yes, everyone has their own reasons for visiting this forum and that fact should be respected. We all have different experiences of life after all. I don't have any problem with non suicidal people being on here, but there has been some that have came on these forums just to make people who are suffering feel worse, I've seen that a few times. I believe that nowhere in this world is really free from the cruelty of people and that is an unfortunate fact.

But in general, this forum does respect suicide as a choice and it's beneficial for people to be able to access method information so they have the option of ways to leave and they can decide what is best for themselves. Having method information being able to be accessed will mean that people are less likely to fail an attempt and end up with damage.

I'm sorry you feel unheard and misunderstood so often. This is a heavy burden on top of already being in pain.

You're right, no place is completely free from conflict and cruelty, and this place is, unfortunately, no exception. Additionally, being in such a dark place in life can feel like your skin has turned to thin paper and every touch hurts, even the one that doesn't mean to. Sometimes we upset each other without meaning to, just because we're all trying to shield ourselves from pain yet are hurt so easily. And I wouldn't deny it, I've seen a fair share of quite deliberate trolls on here rejoicing in upsetting desperate people. Good thing most of them don't stick around for a long time.

But there are positives in this community and I'm glad you find it beneficial.
Wishing you peace.

 

[looseye]

I find Sanctioned really interesting in terms of how people interact on here. Almost everywhere else on the internet it's an unwritten rule to be as toxic as possible if you disagree with somebody. You'll have comment threads spanning thousands of words where two idiots pointlessly argue about meaningless things, trying to prove to the world that their insults are more clever than the other guy's ones. Reddit and Twitter are the absolute worst. Fully grown adults spending hours on fabricating texts where they just act like 9 year olds.

This place is different. You see this kind of immature bullshit from time to time but it's incredibly rare when put into relation to other sites. Most people on here, when they don't like something, either don't respond to it at all or make the effort to present their thoughts in a respectful manner. Just as it should be. This is the exact behavior that makes constructive conversation possible in the first place and I'm still in awe about how this community collectively manages to keep it up without any elitist-tier quality control rules. Maybe we're just tired of fighting?

 

[makethepainstop]

I never had the feeling someone gets pushed over the cliff here… the media covering this site as a death culture etc. is wrong

Quite the contrary, this site has saved lives and many people. By being able to speak your unspeakable thoughts, now that is stress relief. Rather than holding your thoughts and emotions in, you can share your true feelings. Now there is a nice therapy, cheap, easy to use, and ever so confidential! How many attempted suicides have been prevented, because someone here, explained how their method would fail? Unlike a psychologist, the people here KNOW how we feel, because they are us! This site is not some damn death cult, it's where hurting people can find solace. Much love to all.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

I find Sanctioned really interesting in terms of how people interact on here. Almost everywhere else on the internet it's an unwritten rule to be as toxic as possible if you disagree with somebody. You'll have comment threads spanning thousands of words where two idiots pointlessly argue about meaningless things, trying to prove to the world that their insults are more clever than the other guy's ones. Reddit and Twitter are the absolute worst. Fully grown adults spending hours on fabricating texts where they just act like 9 year olds.

This place is different. You see this kind of immature bullshit from time to time but it's incredibly rare when put into relation to other sites. Most people on here, when they don't like something, either don't respond to it at all or make the effort to present their thoughts in a respectful manner. Just as it should be. This is the exact behavior that makes constructive conversation possible in the first place and I'm still in awe about how this community collectively manages to keep it up without any elitist-tier quality control rules. Maybe we're just tired of fighting?

I agree, it is quite a peaceful and friendly place compared to many other Internet social platforms, though of course it is not perfect. People on this site present wildly different opinions and have discussions and debates on topics that are very likely to get shut down by censorship elsewhere. Many sites also swing to another extreme and forbid any discussion whatsoever around touchy subjects. It is often done under the guise of preventing arguments or avoiding upsetting vulnerable people, but in reality a ban on debates often implies there can only be one right opinion. I don't think that is a good thing either.
I appreciate the civil discussions that do not devolve into insults, blame game and ad hominem attacks very much.

 

[Alayna]

Had to really digest this one. As someone who is not currently (urgently) suicidal I haven't been sure what my place in this forum is, if any. But I do believe the consensus here is healthy. If there were a culture of egging eachother on to death simply for being here this site would be the toxic strawman pro-lifers want it to be. I've never seen it explicitly, but even implicitly doesn't feel plausible. Time and again, suicide doesn't look cool; it looks desperate and abject. It just looks like suicide looks. There's no incentive to want it. The widespread agreement above that no-one has felt pressured towards suicide (and even felt helped away from it) by this site speaks volumes.

BUT... we must also recognise the potential hurt of people who are desperately tormented; feeling this openness sidelines a space which should be prioritising their needs. That too much levity is insensitive. That this mustn't just become anyother social media platform (hmm reacts). To that end, this acknowledgement might be the most inconspicuously important observation in this thread of very important observations. Because it acknowledges another side to things:

It's probably a good idea not to respond to threads asking for help if you can't sympathize with the OP at all

Non-suis need to really respect and defer to the needs of the most vulnerable. Even if it means conceding an argument - non passive-aggressively - to an asshole (who might be an asshole because of what they are going through). Even if it means allowing derailing, or holding one's tongue. Even if it means being told you're not supposed to be on the site. (Is this a real attitude or a perceived one? I've never actually encountered it in my brief stint...)

Anyway, I spend 80% of my time in the off-topic section posting about dumb and inconsequential shit. Yes, I could probably find somewhere else on the internet to do it. But it's a cope for my slowburning suicidal inclination. It's having a similar understanding and philosophy of life and death with others underlying all the patter. It's building ties with a community that I can trust to understand me when things inevitably slip. It's learning how to read and support people struggling to get by. It's what real talking should be allowed to look like.

A strength of this community is its frankness; expelling people who don't want to die but feel they need a place to discuss suicide from a non-pathological perspective would divide us against the absolute torture machine of the pro-life agenda. Our common enemy is strong, why should we make it stronger through infighting? A rift in the community does no-one any good.

 

[lyles]

Truly I think that this is a community with a unique atmosphere. I agree with your points, particularly that being present on the site is not an inherent condemnation of life. While I am actively suicidal and do wish I was dead, in my daily life I am moving on as would be expected of me. I am making major life choices, I have a pet, my boyfriend is moving in with me, I have a full time job, all of the big adult stuff. I am doing everything I "should" as an adult. Yet I still harbor this deep desire today. The paradox of my actions as opposed to how I feel is reflected a lot in some of the people I see here. The solidarity, the diverse and meaningful discussions, and the space to voice feelings and thoughts I cannot otherwise all mean a lot to me.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

BUT... we must also recognise the potential hurt of people who are desperately tormented; feeling this openness sidelines a space which should be prioritising their needs. That too much levity is insensitive. That this mustn't just become anyother social media platform (hmm reacts).

Non-suis need to really respect and defer to the needs of the most vulnerable.

On one hand, I really do agree in principle. There is nothing wrong with approaching CTB discussion out of personal interest that isn't motivated by a suicidal intent, or with discussing methods without having any intention to apply these methods to yourself, approaching them from a strictly scientific point of view. But I believe it is crucial to remember that for most people coming here don't just ask questions about methods because they are curious - they do because they are in a very dark place and are desperately looking for solutions, and the answer that they are going to receive can affect them tremendously.
With that in mind, suicidal people have different needs too. Sometimes they need to be heard, sometimes they need advice or reassurance - and sometimes they also just want a distraction, a normal conversation. Most people posting in the Offtopic section are still very much suicidal. All desperate people in severe pain are ultimately looking for one thing - some relief. Expressing your pain with words and seeking validation, asking questions looking for advice and reassurance and distracting yourself with dark jokes, philosophical debates or random chatter are all equally valid ways of achieving relief.

One inherent problem with this community that does lead to a lot of trouble is that it is hard to define who constitutes the "most vulnerable" in a place where almost everybody is suicidal levels of vulnerable. It's like taking the most basic Geiger counter to Chernobyl and trying to use it to determine the most radioactive spot - you'll be hard-pressed to find any place where it wouldn't max out. The concept of being vulnerable pretty much "maxes out" at "actively looking for methods" and almost everyone here is at this level. Ideally, we should all respect each others needs, but in practice it doesn't always work like that when desperate and tormented people interact with each other. It is impossible to avoid any division and disagreements in a place with this many people.
How do we determine who is "suicidal enough" and "in pain enough" to have their needs prioritized in a place like this? - that is the question. If we accept a position that if someone behaves aggressively they must be in the worst pain and the most vulnerable person around and therefore we need to be extra kind to them - that is very sweet in theory. But in a place like this where most people are in extreme pain it can create the worst case of Misery Olympics imaginable, where to have your emotional needs prioritized you need to prove that your pain is more painful than everybody else's, even though you're surrounded with people who are actively looking for ways to off themselves, and the more aggressive and disrespectful you are to other people in the process - the more likely you are to succeed.

 

[akirat9]

The only good thing about this site for me is I was able to physically obtain an actually working suicide method for once. something i couldn't get anywhere else. this is the benefit. I do not fit into any community, even back then i never fit in personally, i have tried i do not, so it's just been me. I would just wish I would stop thinking the pain will stop.

 

[neoyokio]

I find Sanctioned really interesting in terms of how people interact on here. Almost everywhere else on the internet it's an unwritten rule to be as toxic as possible if you disagree with somebody. You'll have comment threads spanning thousands of words where two idiots pointlessly argue about meaningless things, trying to prove to the world that their insults are more clever than the other guy's ones. Reddit and Twitter are the absolute worst. Fully grown adults spending hours on fabricating texts where they just act like 9 year olds.

This place is different. You see this kind of immature bullshit from time to time but it's incredibly rare when put into relation to other sites. Most people on here, when they don't like something, either don't respond to it at all or make the effort to present their thoughts in a respectful manner. Just as it should be. This is the exact behavior that makes constructive conversation possible in the first place and I'm still in awe about how this community collectively manages to keep it up without any elitist-tier quality control rules. Maybe we're just tired of fighting?

Now this would be quite the article about the site— The Only Place On The Internet with Decorum

 

[Rounded Agony]

Exactly. The very idea of suicide prevention is not bad by definition, at least I really don't think so. It's just that the way it is implemented in our times is an absolute disaster that, if we don't mess it all up with nukes and don't slide back into the dark ages, is probably going to terrify our descendants the same way "insane asylums" of XIX century terrify us now, with how little is actually done to effectively address the reason why someone doesn't want to live, and how much is put into just physically forcing them to stay alive.

I sincerely hope that eventually suicide prevention evolves more towards helping people find positive reasons to live, rather than just shutting them up and physically keeping them from dying.

Holy fuck Nessie, how refreshing to see someone else express this thought. I must admit, I'm starting to feel a bit fed up with the expression of sweeping opinions of the opposite that I'm always reading here - people who resent the "pro-life" lot coming at things in the exact same homogenizing way (my life is bad therefore all life is bad and any attempt to stop suicide is inherently bad!). I'm currently working through a book on this subject by someone in the field maybe you'd be interested in. Less than half done so I can't promise it's The Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything, but I'm making notes as I go on a thread I started about it in case you want a running preview.

Thank you for being a great example of the diversity needed here you wonderfully describe

 

[GrumpyFrog]

I'm currently working through a book on this subject by someone in the field maybe you'd be interested in. Less than half done so I can't promise it's The Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything, but I'm making notes as I go on a thread I started about it in case you want a running preview.

I will absolutely look into it when I'll have a little more time, thank you so much for the recommendation!

I must admit, I'm starting to feel a bit fed up with the expression of sweeping opinions of the opposite that I'm always reading here - people who resent the "pro-life" lot coming at things in the exact same homogenizing way (my life is bad therefore all life is bad and any attempt to stop suicide is inherently bad!).

And I must admit that I absolutely get what you mean and that it deeply saddens me that I seem to notice this trend worsen over time.
I can understand the frustration and resentment against the overwhelmingly common pro-life opinion that even thinking of CTB is never okay, it is always just a crazy/impulsive and hysterical/cowardly/selfish etc. decision, that everyone who is jumping off a bridge regrets their decision on the way down, and everyone who is dragged off that bridge will be fine and dandy and oh so grateful that their life was saved etc. I absolutely understand how hearing this over and over again can make you feel extremely misunderstood and leave you bitter and jaded. And I understand how sometimes formerly suicidal people who recovered can represent the absolute worst of "pro-life" position with their conviction that if they managed to get better - everyone who didn't must just not try hard enough. That's like someone who managed to get rich and proceeds to preach that all poor people are just lazy and undeserving of help, because if they just wanted it bad enough, they'd get rich too. I understand how people coming here think "thank god, finally a safe place when I don't have to deal with people who will tell me I will be fine if I just call the goddamn hotline".
But the extreme opposite can be very upsetting too. If every smile, glimmer of hope, suggestion that there are good things in life gets instantly aggressively stomped out, if anyone who considers recovery options or doesn't believe that death is always good and life is always horrible is instantly labeled a "pro-lifer normie" who "doesn't get it", doesn't hurt enough to be considered "properly suicidal" and must shut their mouth or better yet GTFO our playground for the sake of emotional needs of the "properly hurting", if people who make jokes or suggest helpful things other than death get chased with torches and pitchforks yet every week a new "How great would it be if the whole world died in a nuclear disaster" thread crops up and is treated as some sacred topic that cannot be disputed - it would make it incredibly difficult to defend this forum in particular and the pro-choice position in general in the eyes of the rest of the society. And I'm not saying that I see a realistic chance of swaying the opinion of our most adamant opponents anytime soon, but frankly we're in no position to keep fueling their fire if we don't want this place turned into scorched earth.

 

[rationaltake]

And I must admit that I absolutely get what you mean and that it deeply saddens me that I seem to notice this trend worsen over time.
I can understand the frustration and resentment against the overwhelmingly common pro-life opinion that even thinking of CTB is never okay, it is always just a crazy/impulsive and hysterical/cowardly/selfish etc. decision, that everyone who is jumping off a bridge regrets their decision on the way down, and everyone who is dragged off that bridge will be fine and dandy and oh so grateful that their life was saved etc. I absolutely understand how hearing this over and over again can make you feel extremely misunderstood and leave you bitter and jaded. And I understand how sometimes formerly suicidal people who recovered can represent the absolute worst of "pro-life" position with their conviction that if they managed to get better - everyone who didn't must just not try hard enough. That's like someone who managed to get rich and proceeds to preach that all poor people are just lazy and undeserving of help, because if they just wanted it bad enough, they'd get rich too. I understand how people coming here think "thank god, finally a safe place when I don't have to deal with people who will tell me I will be fine if I just call the goddamn hotline".
But the extreme opposite can be very upsetting too. If every smile, glimmer of hope, suggestion that there are good things in life gets instantly aggressively stomped out, if anyone who considers recovery options or doesn't believe that death is always good and life is always horrible is instantly labeled a "pro-lifer normie" who "doesn't get it", doesn't hurt enough to be considered "properly suicidal" and must shut their mouth or better yet GTFO our playground for the sake of emotional needs of the "properly hurting", if people who make jokes or suggest helpful things other than death get chased with torches and pitchforks yet every week a new "How great would it be if the whole world died in a nuclear disaster" thread crops up and is treated as some sacred topic that cannot be disputed - it would make it incredibly difficult to defend this forum in particular and the pro-choice position in general in the eyes of the rest of the society. And I'm not saying that I see a realistic chance of swaying the opinion of our most adamant opponents anytime soon, but frankly we're in no position to keep fueling their fire if we don't want this place turned into scorched earth.

Nessie. Yes. Yes. And again yes. It's sad that some people on this site seem to feel an absolute need to believe that every single person in this world who wants to live is "delusional" or "pretending" and must immediately be outed as a nasty evil "pro-lifer" - in other words the devil incarnate!

What worries me is that this point of view seems to be the accepted default position on the forum.

When I look outside I see numerous people in this world who are happily living their own lives and never give suicide or suicidal people a single thought. They don't bother me so why should I bother them?

Would I join their ranks if I could? Hell yes!!

 

[ever so lonely]

nessie i have always liked you, you seem a reasonable understanding person, but to say we come here and that the vast majority of the posts consist of whining whinging and moaning is absolutely infuriating, and just insulting, way to go and invalidate the already invalidated, to be fair with you, there is plenty out there to whinge moan and whine about, in our own lives and the world around us, cost of living crisis anybody ?, rising energy bills anybody, just to skim the surface, of peeps want to moan whinge and moan then so be it, having a rant before you check out and laugh at then world is ok, but your remake is kinda insulting, i dont know if this is what you intended and frankly i dont care, many of us such as myself are merely here to find a method that isnt rediculous to access and then merely be gone, and fucked off out of it, but to say we moan whinge and whine here ?, really, i believe where ever there is people there is the possibility of toxicity, it is why i am reclusive, and limit interactions irl, this place is no exception, but to come on here and say oh yh see you guys you suicidal guys and gals, well quit ur bitching and moaning, rediculous, or at least that is how it comes across, i dont care for cliques or brownie points, i say my piece, here and in irl, i just want out of it, and i am assuming you and everybody else here does too, on some fundamental level, or else we wouldnt be here would we, these attitudes piss me off to no end, because it is what you get out there, a lack of empathy, but each to there own, cant be arsed to have it out with anybody on here, do enough of that out there, so maybe best just to leave it here, i expected better from you tho, what makes you so spesh to warrant preferential treatment then ?. havnt we had enough of those bs attitudes out there amongst the normies ?, cmon man your better than that, or at least i thought you was.

 

[FuneralCry]

And I must admit that I absolutely get what you mean and that it deeply saddens me that I seem to notice this trend worsen over time.
I can understand the frustration and resentment against the overwhelmingly common pro-life opinion that even thinking of CTB is never okay, it is always just a crazy/impulsive and hysterical/cowardly/selfish etc. decision, that everyone who is jumping off a bridge regrets their decision on the way down, and everyone who is dragged off that bridge will be fine and dandy and oh so grateful that their life was saved etc. I absolutely understand how hearing this over and over again can make you feel extremely misunderstood and leave you bitter and jaded. And I understand how sometimes formerly suicidal people who recovered can represent the absolute worst of "pro-life" position with their conviction that if they managed to get better - everyone who didn't must just not try hard enough. That's like someone who managed to get rich and proceeds to preach that all poor people are just lazy and undeserving of help, because if they just wanted it bad enough, they'd get rich too. I understand how people coming here think "thank god, finally a safe place when I don't have to deal with people who will tell me I will be fine if I just call the goddamn hotline".
But the extreme opposite can be very upsetting too. If every smile, glimmer of hope, suggestion that there are good things in life gets instantly aggressively stomped out, if anyone who considers recovery options or doesn't believe that death is always good and life is always horrible is instantly labeled a "pro-lifer normie" who "doesn't get it", doesn't hurt enough to be considered "properly suicidal" and must shut their mouth or better yet GTFO our playground for the sake of emotional needs of the "properly hurting", if people who make jokes or suggest helpful things other than death get chased with torches and pitchforks yet every week a new "How great would it be if the whole world died in a nuclear disaster" thread crops up and is treated as some sacred topic that cannot be disputed - it would make it incredibly difficult to defend this forum in particular and the pro-choice position in general in the eyes of the rest of the society. And I'm not saying that I see a realistic chance of swaying the opinion of our most adamant opponents anytime soon, but frankly we're in no position to keep fueling their fire if we don't want this place turned into scorched earth.

I'm sorry that you feel saddened by suicidal people's venting posts. You do know that this is a forum for people to vent who are suffering, and if someone hates life then they are entitled to vent about it. It's not a trend, it's people's feelings and this should be respected. Not everyone has the ability to write pretentious essays and some people are just tired of everything and want somewhere to share their frustrations without being judged. All those who call this saddening and a problem are arrogant and are really not that different to those who preach toxic positivity. Not everyone can fit into the high posting standards of some on here.

And also the second part of your post is full of lies. There are many venting posts written by people who wish they could live but they are unable to and these are given support and their view is respected, they are not aggressively called 'pro life normies'. People are supported if they choose recovery. What you say simply does not happen. There are many threads on here about people's hobbies and people are able to discuss this as well as threads written by people who hate life. This website caters to all suicidal people but I have seen people invalidate the suffering of others before and want to gatekeep suicide and yes this is insensitive. I've seen people who only respect the decision to ctb if one meets a certain criteria of suffering and this is a pro life point of view rather than it being associated with the types of people you have written about in your post.

Yes nowhere is free from the cruelty of people, but it's silly and nonsensical to suggest that there are 'opponents' on this website. It's just suicidal people venting. We all have our personal experiences of life and different views. Nobody should have to change their mind on their personal perspective towards life just because others say so. That is the kind of thing that pro lifers do, try to force people to feel a certain way. If someone hates life then that is perfectly valid, to me it makes sense to feel that way and there are so many reasons as to why this is.

I do very much agree with your original post about how not everyone who is suicidal is always 'mentally ill'. Maybe you are looking in the wrong places for problems on this site. Somebody did make a thread recently with the title being 'suicidal people are delusional', on a forum filled with people suffering, and yet someone else was arrogantly insulting those who would personally rather die from an terminal illness than suicide because of their personal circumstances. So I don't really think the problem is people's venting posts. If someone says they hate life then that is just their personal view. Maybe if people are fed up of others venting and want to read about positive things instead then this is not the best website for them.
But I wish you the best.