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RadiantNumber

RadiantNumber

Student
Mar 2, 2024
163
This is why I think so: if there is heaven, hell etc you are haunted by decisions of the past: what you've done, what you haven't done etc, if there is no afterlife you just disappears, there is nothing you need to worry about because you are no longer involded
 
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KillingPain267

KillingPain267

Enlightened
Apr 15, 2024
1,896
Not if there is a memory wipe in the (good) conscious afterlife. Revelation 21:4: "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." You can think of many potential kinds of afterlives where what you said is not necessarily true. The very concept of a good eternal afterlife is precisely that nothing is going to be painful anymore, not even bad memories or decisions made in this life.
 
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RadiantNumber

RadiantNumber

Student
Mar 2, 2024
163
But still ceasing to exists you don't need to worry anymore cause you are no longer, also even if memories are wiped you are still there existing without purpose
 
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KillingPain267

KillingPain267

Enlightened
Apr 15, 2024
1,896
But still ceasing to exists you don't need to worry anymore
"don't need to worry anymore" you made the logical fallacy again. The very idea of a good afterlife is precisely that there is no more worry for eternity. That's true of nothingness, yes, BUT it CAN also be logically true if you imagine an eternal life where EVERYTHING negative is impossible, including distressing thoughts like worry. Imagine an afterlife where everyone is permanently high as a kite without any consequences healthwise and where the novelty of euphoria never wears off.
also even if memories are wiped you are still there existing without purpose
Purpose is such a useless concept. Someone currently high on heroin doesn't care about their seemingly purposeless existence. They're simply too euphoric to care.
 
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RadiantNumber

RadiantNumber

Student
Mar 2, 2024
163
"don't need to worry anymore" you made the logical fallacy again. The very idea of a good afterlife is precisely that there is no more worry for eternity. That's true of nothingness, yes, BUT it CAN also be logically true if you imagine an eternal life where EVERYTHING negative is impossible, including distressing thoughts like worry. Imagine an afterlife where everyone is permanently high as a kite without any consequences healthwise and where the novelty of euphoria never wears off.
That afterlife would be good, or when you are in the dream which you made yourself, eternal lucid dream
 
KillingPain267

KillingPain267

Enlightened
Apr 15, 2024
1,896
That afterlife would be good, or when you are in the dream which you made yourself, eternal lucid dream
Yes, and that's essentially the afterlife that the Bible actually teaches, despite what you may have heard. Most people just don't have the imagination to imagine an existence better than what we currently endure here in this life and universe. But imagine a universe where the laws of physics are different and allow no decay or pain.

But it's true that nothingness is also a worriless "existence" in essence. Better than what most people tell about potential afterlives (certainly the negative ones).
 
RadiantNumber

RadiantNumber

Student
Mar 2, 2024
163
Yes, and that's essentially the afterlife that the Bible actually teaches, despite what you may have heard. Most people just don't have the imagination to imagine an existence better than what we currently endure here in this life and universe. But imagine a universe where the laws of physics are different and allow no decay or pain.

But it's true that nothingness is also a worriless "existence" in essence. Better than what most people tell about potential afterlives (certainly the negative ones).

I was rather stick with that one written in OBE books or eternal lucid dream
 
RadiantNumber

RadiantNumber

Student
Mar 2, 2024
163
What's OBE?
Out of body experience, there were series of book about it, when author told about afterlife when you have your own place when you live forever. or go to the place yours religion mentioned in it's book or go back to the earth. This is fair, cause every religion and non-believers too has opportunity to have its own afterlife
 
KillingPain267

KillingPain267

Enlightened
Apr 15, 2024
1,896
Out of body experience, there were series of book about it, when author told about afterlife when you have your own place when you live forever. or go to the place yours religion mentioned in it's book or go back to the earth. This is fair, cause every religion and non-believers too has opportunity to have its own afterlife
Ahh okay. Interesting. Have you tried experiencing lucid dreaming?
 
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Kbeau

Experienced
Jan 17, 2021
259
When you cease to exist, you cease to exist. There is no regret, sadness, guilt, personal or financial concerns or anything else. It all just stops and you are nothing. Perfect
 
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FuneralCry

FuneralCry

Just wanting some peace
Sep 24, 2020
41,587
It really would be for me, non-existence really is all I personally hope for and is all that can bring me peace from the suffering of existing, non-existence is all I see as desirable and would solve everything for me in this futile, torturous existence where I'm just hoping and waiting for death anyway. I just wish for no more pain, no more suffering, I just wish to be unconscious for all eternity with all finally gone and forgotten, I just never should had been burdened with this existence of cruelty and suffering all for the sake of it and I see it as the most terrible tragedy how this existence was even imposed at all, I'd always prefer to not exist no matter what.
 
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Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
11,174
"don't need to worry anymore" you made the logical fallacy again. The very idea of a good afterlife is precisely that there is no more worry for eternity. That's true of nothingness, yes, BUT it CAN also be logically true if you imagine an eternal life where EVERYTHING negative is impossible, including distressing thoughts like worry. Imagine an afterlife where everyone is permanently high as a kite without any consequences healthwise and where the novelty of euphoria never wears off.

Purpose is such a useless concept. Someone currently high on heroin doesn't care about their seemingly purposeless existence. They're simply too euphoric to care.

I always find that so curious about the idea of heaven. I think the appeal for many people is that we would get to see deceased loved ones, even pets again. But, in either case- if only our 'good' attributes make it in to heaven, are we truly 'us' anymore?

Take for example my family. My Mum died when I was 3. My Dad remarried when I was 10. My step Mum is a hugely jealous person- understandably given her past and a former husband that cheated. If they all get to heaven, will they be happy to share my Dad there? I doubt it! Plus, I'd want nothing to do with my step family in a heaven type scenario. Some of them made my life here hell!

I just find it interesting. For it to truly be heaven, wouldn't it need to be so far removed from what we recognise to be ourselves and others, would it even be that appealing? Maybe in an abstract kind of way. Like trying out a new game. Experiencing life with no limits. Still, what we maybe cherish as us would likely have to change for it to work. Unless I suppose we all get split into multiple realities. Maybe my Dad will exist in duplicate in heaven so he can be with two different families.

But, it kind of sounds more like reincarnation as a fairly bland but thoroughly good little citizen. I suppose it's hard to really envisage a life where we aren't really us. The 'bad' bits have been erased. The ones we love aren't really them because their 'faults' are also gone. Maybe everyone loves one another equally but then, what would make anything special or stand out then? If it was rainbows everyday, would we still appreciate them? I guess we would because our 'brains' would have been changed to always be happy.

It was quite a feat one day when I realised I also felt cynicism towards heaven! Propbably a good thing though because, I doubt I would get there- even if there is one.

I tend to agree with the OP though, I'm hoping there's just nothingness.
 
KillingPain267

KillingPain267

Enlightened
Apr 15, 2024
1,896
I always find that so curious about the idea of heaven. I think the appeal for many people is that we would get to see deceased loved ones, even pets again. But, in either case- if only our 'good' attributes make it in to heaven, are we truly 'us' anymore?
Well, what is even the self? Only certain attributes from your childhood self made it into your adulthood self, but do you doubt that your childhood experience was even 'you' because of that? Or even worse, when you sleep (and don't dream) you are practically unconscious, and there is a break in the experience of being your'self' similar to how a death and resurrection would be. But do you doubt whether the 'you' from before last night's sleep is even the same 'you' as today after waking up? You may even feel better today because of feeling refreshed or something compared to having a shitty day before that. But you are still the same person.
Take for example my family. My Mum died when I was 3. My Dad remarried when I was 10. My step Mum is a hugely jealous person- understandably given her past and a former husband that cheated. If they all get to heaven, will they be happy to share my Dad there? I doubt it! Plus, I'd want nothing to do with my step family in a heaven type scenario. Some of them made my life here hell!
Funny, Jesus received a similar objection to this from the Sadducees who rejected a resurrection. His response was this: Matthew 22:29: "Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven." So there won't be any sharing of marriage partners in the new earth (not "heaven", the Bible doesn't say people "go to heaven" but that it's a physical resurrection on a restored earth). The thing is though, can't you imagine a scenario where the whole family has forgiven each other and are no longer holding grudges? If those who hurt you are truly sorry and you learn to forgive and then you all get high together, lol. None of what you said is really an objection towards the concept of an afterlife.
I just find it interesting. For it to truly be heaven, wouldn't it need to be so far removed from what we recognise to be ourselves and others, would it even be that appealing?
Maybe not appealing to the way you, or others, think right now. A heroin addict's lifestyle may not seem appealing on the outside, but ask someone high as a kite on heroin how they feel while high, lol. Now imagine being permanently high but without health and financial consequences. I'd certainly take that! But then again, I'm just a recovering junkie, haha.
 
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Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
11,174
Well, what is even the self? Only certain attributes from your childhood self made it into your adulthood self, but do you doubt that your childhood experience was even 'you' because of that? Or even worse, when you sleep (and don't dream) you are practically unconscious, and there is a break in the experience of being your'self' similar to how a death and resurrection would be. But do you doubt whether the 'you' from before last night's sleep is even the same 'you' as today after waking up? You may even feel better today because of feeling refreshed or something compared to having a shitty day before that. But you are still the same person.

All true. So, do you envisage heaven as more like a dream state where we aren't fully conscious? I suppose my reasoning is- yes- all the things, good but probably more specifically- bad that happened throughout my life were all me at different times. Would I want to enter heaven with the mentality of my 3 year old self? No. That might suit my Mum of course. I was that age when she died and we were separated but, that's not who I am now. While I don't like what happened to make me who I am now. I don't even particularly enjoy being me, it would also be weird to wipe that all away and start again.

Who I recognise as 'me' is the sum of all my experiences to this point. I suppose mentally I would want to retain that. It would also be confusing to get to heaven and find my Mum and Grandparents were much younger and more immature versions of themselves. I suppose it's still all a very earthly perspective. But, I suppose that's all we know. It's hard to envisage being stripped down to our bare, pure, only good essence and meeting our loved ones in the same state.

I'm just curious how people who believe envisage heaven I suppose. What do 'spirits' do all day for eternity? Do you still imagine us doing earthly things like listening to music, playing games etc. Do we still resemble ourselves even? I'm just curious how people picture it.
 
KillingPain267

KillingPain267

Enlightened
Apr 15, 2024
1,896
Still, what we maybe cherish as us would likely have to change for it to work.
I wish many things about me could change. For example, I wish I could have a brain without social anxiety. Also, it seems like you have a very strict sense of self. It seems like you think you have to be exactly the same as you are exactly this moment or week, otherwise it's not really you. But I remember a time when I was a child and didn't have social anxiety. But I was still me and my mom was still my mom and so forth. Have we changed a lot? Yes. But have we swapped consciousness with foreign entities? No.
I guess we would because our 'brains' would have been changed to always be happy.
Yes, that is what I believe. I don't know why it's so hard to imagine. We literally have endogenous morphine in our brains right now. Just imagine a physically enhanced version of that. The Bible describes the physical resurrection as being a glorification of our bodies.
All true. So, do you envisage heaven as more like a dream state where we aren't fully conscious?
Again, not "heaven", but a physical new earth restored to a paradise like state. And no, not a dream, but a fully conscious and physical resurrection. Just imagine a universe where all decay and pain is removed. Whether you believe this is impossible (and/or boring, lol), fine. But it's what the Bible describes as the (good) afterlife for those who believe by faith alone in the gospel (that Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4). Some theoretical physicists hypothesize about multiple universes out there where the laws of physics are different, so why can't it be possible for a future universe to be born where what we regard as negative things are gone?
Who I recognise as 'me' is the sum of all my experiences to this point. I suppose mentally I would want to retain that.
Okay, I don't believe in memory wipes in the resurrection, but I believe any traumatic memory from this life and sinful world would just feel neutral and not painful anymore. Like totally healed trauma.
 
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Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
11,174
I wish many things about me could change. For example, I wish I could have a brain without social anxiety. Also, it seems like you have a very strict sense of self. It seems like you think you have to be exactly the same as you are exactly this moment or week, otherwise it's not really you. But I remember a time when I was a child and didn't have social anxiety. But I was still me and my mom was still my mom and so forth. Have we changed a lot? Yes. But have we swapped consciousness with foreign entities? No.

Yes, that is what I believe. I don't know why it's so hard to imagine. We literally have endogenous morphine in our brains right now. Just imagine a physically enhanced version of that. The Bible describes the physical resurrection as being a glorification of our bodies.

Yes, you're probably right. My life feels very disjointed. In a way, who I was when I was young and my family members were still alive kind of is a different person to who I am now. I suppose the difficulty is, neither were entirely great!

I'm basically just very tired and cynical of the state of being alive and conscious though. It's not like I've never experienced being happy but I only really appreciated it because it was different to my usual state. So, it's weird/ unnatural to envisage that all the time. Seeing as the value came from contrast.

It's all good though. I'm happy for people who believe in heaven and believe they will get there. It's also been a relief to me to reject heaven as an appealing place because, I likely won't get there! (Seeing as I've largely rejected God. If there even is one.)
 
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KillingPain267

KillingPain267

Enlightened
Apr 15, 2024
1,896
I'm just curious how people who believe envisage heaven I suppose. What do 'spirits' do all day for eternity? Do you still imagine us doing earthly things like listening to music, playing games etc. Do we still resemble ourselves even? I'm just curious how people picture it.
I don't believe in spirits as in dualism. The biblical afterlife is consistently physicalist. So just imagine paradise, and yes, I absolutely envisage us doing "earthly" things, because the afterlife is described as being on a literal "new earth". Even many Christians object when I say I believe there will even be video games and car racing! Because why not? There will certainly be food as described by Jesus eating with Abraham and the other fathers and prophets. What (or when) we will resemble ourselves is irrelevant. Some have suggested we will be about 30 years old like Jesus when he rose again. But I don't see a problem in me being still me despite age changes. I guess the philosophic issue here is what is called the continuum question.
 
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