Need help from someone knowledgeable about needles/ODs

[trainwreck2]

Hello, my old name was Trainwreck, but I closed my account in April and can't get it reopened, so I had to make this new account.

I've been in hospice since February for malabsorption (I have a ton of health problems, but losing weight is what is killing me), with no narcotic or benzo usage at that time. After a major pain episode hospice has me on a serious amount of drugs, and honestly, I feel worse than ever. When I complain, they just pile on more drugs that don't work and basically say it's my fault I'm so miserable because I'm not taking the massive amount they're prescribing (they don't get that the drugs are making me feel worse). I've begged for palliative sedation, which is not considered suicide even by the US Supreme Court. I'm told that it's not ethical for someone like me and give me all this Pollyanna crap about how each day is precious and Gods not done with me, blah blah blah. Believe me, if I had known just how religion the nurses were with this hospice, I would I have tried harder to find a religious free organization, but that ship has sailed.

My options are limited, with OD being my best of the bad options. I'm a 74 pound 5'4" female. The morphine I have comes in a bottle that says 20 mg per ml and there are 30 ml in the bottle. I have 1 full bottle. The oxycodone I have is 10MG per ml and there is 15 ml left. The Ativan I have is a full 22 ml bottle with 2 mg per mI.

They just bumped my fentanyl patch to 100 mcg. I'm not sure how many I have, and can't get out of bed to check right now. Probably at least 5 patches. I'm so skinny though, I'm not sure they're anything to count on (I read they work better if you can put the patch on some fatty tissue.).

I have lots of pills (Ativan, clonazapam, a couple different oxy pills, zofran, compazine, promethazine) and some brandy, but I have a bad stomach (and never drank alcohol) so I'm not sure how much I can trust swallowing too many of them.

So after the long read, I need to know about needles. What should I buy? Do I need to practice a little with hitting a vein before going for it? Do I have enough liquid morphine, oxy, and Ativan considering I'm so underweight? I'd also throw on a couple patches, I just don't want to use them all in case something goes wrong and I wake up. Hospice will wonder where the hell they went (the rest of the liquid meds have long been forgotten by them).

The one thing I have going for me is time. No one will try to stop me or catch me, even if it takes a few hours.

Thank you very much!!!

TLDR: How much liquid morphine and Ativan does a 5'4" 74 pound female need to die, who has been prescribed narcotics for 4 months already. What kind of syringe will I need to inject the 2.5 bottles of meds I have?

 

[SleepyTime]

I am not an expert on morphine, but from what I have read the amount of morphine you have is enough. For someone who hasn't been taking opioids 300 mg is enough. Since you have been taking opioids you need more. You have a full bottle of 600 mg. Liquid morphine is available in a bottle that contains 20mg per ml and you mention this is your quantity. So if this morphine is liquid and is normally swallowed, why are you looking to inject it? Do you have an issue with drinking it? If this is nearly enough for your purpose, adding any of your additional drugs would make the process more lethal.

It looks like your Ativan is also a liquid that you can drink. If you can drink these two bottles, and add in any other of your many drugs I would think this would be more than enough. Mixing various drugs make them more lethal. And you wouldn't need to take all of them. Adding one of each would probably cause an overload. Since they all interact with each other.

If you have experience with morphine, did you also take an anti-emetic? If so, do you have some of this?

 

[trainwreck2]

Thank you for your input! I have stomach and intestinal problems, which is why I'd rather not risk swallowing my supply of meds. This is my one shot to freedom, so I have to be sure not to waste the liquid stuff or the patches. I do have anti nausea meds, but my absorption is bad, so they don't work that well.

I've been searching our favorite jungle website for insulin needles, but it's overwhelming. I have small veins, which I think means I need a large gauge needle. Can I get a needle that I can put in once, and then have a bunch of prefilled needleless syringes that I screw on, inject, take off, add the next one, inject, until I'm done? There's no way I can poke myself enough times to get all the medicine in with separate syringes. Sorry if these are stupid questions, I'm just desperate to die before I'm 100% dependent on care and get put in a nursing home.

Edit: I'll double check the size of my morphine, Ativan, and oxy bottles tomorrow, but despite having a certain amount of dependence now, I'm hoping my frailty will make it irrelevant and I'll die anyway.

 

[Nohopeinhell]

Can you perhaps suggest getting a drip up and state you're feeling dehydrated and you are struggling with liquids?
They might then pop you on IV fluids and then you'll have your vein access?

 

[Aap]

This is the only method that will work if the IV route is chosen. Iv bag and having a large syringe to inject all of the opioids into the bag and have it drip slowly along with the fentanyl patches. I don't know what window OP has to be alone, however.

honestly with the fentanyl patches, liquid opioids, and a few benzos, given the weight, I don't see how failure would occur If tolerance is not too high.

OP, what doses of each are you on?

 

[trainwreck2]

Thanks for the replies! I was too tired today to get back on here, but tomorrow I will post a pic of the morphine, oxy, and Ativan bottles. If I need to put in an IV, I'm screwed. Even nurses have a hard time with my tiny veins. I have plenty of time though for the meds to kick in before I'll be found if I could somehow manage getting around the IV insertion issue.

I got put on the heavy duty narcotics at the beginning of May, and they just upped the fentynel patch from 75 mcg to 100 a few days ago. I usually get a max of 7 patches at a time, but I know I have a few lower dosed patches squirreled away from each time they increase the dose. I also take dialudad (spelled wrong) at around 8 mg per day. It's insane how I went from narcotic free to this in such a short amount of time.

Again, I'll post tomorrow when my thoughts are more clear and I can give you all the accurate names, dosages, etc. Thanks so much for taking the time to reply!

 

[Aap]

Forget the needles. Nothing you can do with them would work unless you had an Iv drip and were left overnight. The most sensible plan would be to take zofran, wait an hour, put all th fentanyl patches on except one 100mcg/h, immediately drink all of the opioids you have, immediately drink the Ativan, and then chew the final patch until you are unconscious.

 

[ronigail9]

Agreed, this is your best bet.

 

[trainwreck2]

Here's the liquids I have in the photos (oxy is half full, morphine and Ativan are full), plus I have 6 25mcg fentanyl patches. None of these items will be missed by hospice in case of failure. I'm reluctant to use too many of my 100 mcg patches (4 left right now) just in case of a failure, because I need them and wouldn't exactly be able to explain why they were gone. I have craploads of Ativan pills, as well as the anti nauseas compazine, zofran, and promethazine. I have a limited amount of opiates and clonazapam in pill form.

I really can't swallow much due to my stomach problems, and my patches are the non chewable ones. It's really disappointing to hear I'll need an IV for this to work. I have plenty of time to let it run through, just no one to put the IV in for me (I already know hospice won't set you up with home IVs because I've asked for fluids in the past and was told no).

Thank you all very much for your advice. Hopefully I can come up with an alternative before I become completely bed bound or I will lose it for sure. I have a 22 rifle, but I read the gun thread and that's a bad option too.

 

[Deleted member 14386]

how heavy a dose were you put on in may? I hate to say it but you may well be quite tolerant by now. If I'm doing the math correct you have a total of:
300mg oxy = 450mg morphine
+600mg morphine
60ml IV
+ tablets ativan lorazepam
the only way to get 60ml IV'd is a drip, it's hard, not impossible, I can't advise on this honestly, I don't think it's feasible with at home equipment. Hope someone else can help
edit: oh yeah the fent patches, even so....

 

[Ghost2211]

If you have small difficult veins it be hard for you to inject unless you know how to hit a vein already. Are you sure you can't drink meds with zofran and anti acids? I would keep pushing for IV. Keep completing about liquids till they listen.

 

[Deleted member 14386]

If you have small difficult veins it be hard for you to inject unless you know how to hit a vein already. Are you sure you can't drink meds with zofran and anti acids? I would keep pushing for IV. Keep completing about liquids till they listen.

they could drink it all, but the bioavailability would be quite low, 40% I think (off the top of my head), a lot hangs in the tolerance they have already

 

[Ghost2211]

they could drink it all, but the bioavailability would be quite low, 40% I think (off the top of my head), a lot hangs in the tolerance they have already

I see. Sadly, that makes the meds much less a viable option.
Why not use the meds to pass out in shallow water, or with partial hanging?

 

[Deleted member 14386]

the patches of F won't stay on, but yeah, possible.
I'd say the most likely route would be deep water with a rock-coat/backpack, but falling in before you just passed out it'd be hard to find the middle point where it's not scary but still enough to stop you from getting out of the weights
tricky subject not gonna lie
edit: actually you could possibly remove the F from the patches, tricky but if you google theres a tonne of users on different drug forums that might be better to ask

 

[Aap]

With your tolerance, the 6 25mcg patches won't be enough, and your malabsorption might be an issue with the liquid meds. As the patches are changed every 3 days, I'd say your best bet would be to wait 2 weeks until you have 7 plus the 6 25mcg patches plus the liquid opioids and Ativan.

 

[Deleted member 14386]

With your tolerance, the 6 25mcg patches won't be enough, and your malabsorption might be an issue with the liquid meds. As the patches are changed every 3 days, I'd say your best bet would be to wait 2 weeks until you have 7 plus the 6 25mcg patches plus the liquid opioids and Ativan.

I didn't think of the malabsorption, great point

 

[Spitfire]

My heart goes out to you. You should be allowed...

I was a little cautious and hesitant to respond because I wanted to try and first imagine myself also to be in the exact situation you describe.

I am driving and have several hours to go yet, but wanted to take the time to put my response out for you now. I pulled over to type this up.

You literally got everything you need for a peacful and pleasant death right at your fingertips at this very moment. With no way to get them easily and properly administered. This is very disconcerting to me at the least.

There is a way you could still do this, but it would not be easy for someone without experience in these matters. I am certain I could get the job done for on myself.. although, I believe to try on myself would not be an easy thing, even with my vast experience of these things. You could probably still accomplish the task if absolutely determined.

I do not know your physical makeup, energy to try, or the ability to learn a technique? I do not think without an extreme strong determination to succeed could you honestly be able to accomplish the tasks. I do not know your abilities and will though, so I can tell you what I would do if it were me, and this was what I was wanting to do too.

I have found that many malnourished and very skinny people usually have two good veins, in most cases. I am thinking of the veins in your neck - the jugular. To self access a jugular vein even for the experienced would not be easy though.

If you get in a recliner and put your head down towards the ground with your torso and legs towards the ceiling the jugular will engorge and should pop out for you to see them with a mirror and feel them with your fingers. Those would be my choice of access, and gives you several shots to succeed on each of them. You could hit them more than one time even to administer the medication if you wanted or needed. This would be your likely best access based on what you said. You can administer all of the morphine in one swift shot to a jugular. This is your IV med... Probably the best one of the choices you have available for the IV administered narcotic.

It would require a 30cc syringe and a 18 gauge needle, possibly could use a 20 gauge if needing something a little smaller.. Access, aspirate, slam the plunger.

Drink the oxycodone. Put all of the patches on your body. Take some of the oral benzos.

The Ativan you have should be able to be administered by subcutaneous and intramuscular routes. If you fill several of the insulin type or smaller 25/27 gauge BD syringes with the Ativan you could give multiple subcutaneous injections all over your body anywhere you have even a little bit of fat. You could use a 20 or 23 gauge needle to administer the Ativan into any muscle left on your body. The butt and the thigh in particular, even any other muscle left such as a calf or biceps too. Multiple smaller injections all over your body to get it in your system.

This post is not done. There is a lot more to say on this matter first and foremost it needs to be attainable, and I do not think you could honestly do it on yourself without the experience to back it up. The timing of everything needs to be considered too. Other things...

I did not proofread and have to get back going on the road to be on schedule. Ultimately, I wanted you to know I was trying for you and thinking of you and your situation.

Ideally, you need a port and a Huber needle to do this for in your situation.

Feel free to PM me anytime.

 

[Aap]

Don't do any of that.

 

[Spitfire]

Don't do any of that.

It is not realistic is it? I hope that was evident, and did come across in what I was trying to say?

I should have been more specific to say it better about how difficult trying to do something like this would be with what we know.

The second to last sentence was the most important part. If a port could somehow be obtained in the near future, then that would be where I would recommend the focus to be at this point.

 

[Aap]

No self administering 30ml of a viscous liquid through an 18 gauge needle through an IJ puncture while looking in a mirror is not in the realm of possibility for someone who has never done that before.

 

[Ghost2211]

I think you likely need to pick a different method. Is there a physical limitation preventing most suicide methods, or are they not preferred?

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

The thing with self-administering N by injection is that one would pass out before finishing. Would it not be the same with the morphine?

 

[trainwreck2]

This will be short for now because I'm exhausted (starvation or over medicated, take your pick). I just want to say thank you to all the thought you've put into my situation. And even pulling off the road? Thanks Spitfire! I will read through everything again when my brain is working better. I was feeling really down last night, thinking there was no hope but to go on for months, or with my luck, a couple of years, but your support has made me feel better. I'll try to figure out just how addicted I am to everything later, but hospice loves their drugs, and if you don't take the great gobs they give you, they get quite upset. I was thinking that maybe I could hold out 72 hours instead of 48 hours on my 100 fentanyl patches to try to accumulate a supply. It won't be easy, and will take more time than I would like, but it's at least a possibility. The nurse says to only put them on my upper back and tricep because they won't work otherwise due to my lack of fat. Hopefully there would be enough room if I can acquire like 10-15. Thanks again everyone!

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

This will be short for now because I'm exhausted (starvation or over medicated, take your pick). I just want to say thank you to all the thought you've put into my situation. And even pulling off the road? Thanks Spitfire! I will read through everything again when my brain is working better. I was feeling really down last night, thinking there was no hope but to go on for months, or with my luck, a couple of years, but your support has made me feel better. I'll try to figure out just how addicted I am to everything later, but hospice loves their drugs, and if you don't take the great gobs they give you, they get quite upset. I was thinking that maybe I could hold out 72 hours instead of 48 hours on my 100 fentanyl patches to try to accumulate a supply. It won't be easy, and will take more time than I would like, but it's at least a possibility. The nurse says to only put them on my upper back and tricep because they won't work otherwise due to my lack of fat. Hopefully there would be enough room if I can acquire like 10-15. Thanks again everyone!

You mentioned 100 fentanyl patches.i would accumulate as many as i can. There are ways of getting the fentanyl out of the patches and the procedure is on the itnernet. i would draw the fentanyl out and inject or buccal it. Are you stuck in a hospice or can you leave ? Cause if you can there is also freediving blackout or shallow water blackout.

 

[Spitfire]

This will be short for now because I'm exhausted (starvation or over medicated, take your pick). I just want to say thank you to all the thought you've put into my situation. And even pulling off the road? Thanks Spitfire! I will read through everything again when my brain is working better. I was feeling really down last night, thinking there was no hope but to go on for months, or with my luck, a couple of years, but your support has made me feel better. I'll try to figure out just how addicted I am to everything later, but hospice loves their drugs, and if you don't take the great gobs they give you, they get quite upset. I was thinking that maybe I could hold out 72 hours instead of 48 hours on my 100 fentanyl patches to try to accumulate a supply. It won't be easy, and will take more time than I would like, but it's at least a possibility. The nurse says to only put them on my upper back and tricep because they won't work otherwise due to my lack of fat. Hopefully there would be enough room if I can acquire like 10-15. Thanks again everyone!

I think patches are probably a great way to ween oneself down off opiates anyway. I know you are not trying to exactly come off them or anything.

You can adjust a dose with them by calculating the hours on vs off pretty easily to suit ones own needs. . This was the next thing I was going to mention if you have time, because it will decrease the amount needed, and increase the amount available to use.

You can develop a gameplan in the meantime. It looks like you have some good support, even judging by this board alone.

 

[Spitfire]

The thing with self-administering N by injection is that one would pass out before finishing. Would it not be the same with the morphine?

I do believe based on my experience of giving IV medication to other people it is definitely within the realm of possibility. I would need, or want to get a feel for how it flows, and to find the correct ratio of vein to bore, to syring and needle size.. for maximizing the effectiveness of a rapid IV push administration.

The syring size is pretty important. They operate with different pressure for the delivery. It is dependent on other variables too though, to consider.

A 30ml bag gtt long tubing with the bag filled full of NS and a third medication, raised to the ceiling, would increase the flow rate in a patent IV.

The tubing itself could be filled with a second medication.

The lowest part of the tubing used should have an access on it to give the rapid IV push drug.

Just a though?

 

[trainwreck2]

Spitfire, I shouldn't have wasted my time in college with liberal arts and gone medical instead, because that was all straight over my head

I don't have access to a pool, or the water blackouts look very interesting! Made me think that maybe drowning in a bathtub would work, but since I haven't seen it mentioned on this site, it must be unreliable. Probably the most realistic option I have is to save up 100 f patches the best I can. I would love to extract it, but doubt I have the physical or mental capabilities anymore not to screw it up and ruin the patches. I might have a better cbt option to poke holes in the patches, apply as many to my upper body as possible, and put a heating pad on the biggest grouping of them. Hopefully I'll get enough before I'm bed bound (right now I just sleep pretty much all day but can get up and use the bathroom). I've read 10 patches are needed for an opiate naive person, but what about someone with tolerance? And about how many hours does it take to get the job done?

God I wish I was best friends with a nurse who could just set me up for fluids, and then never come back to my house again. Which actually reminds me, hospice set me up with this sub q line once to prepare me for a short stay inpatient. She only used one, and the other has been in the closet collecting dust. I don't suppose that has any use? It hurt like a mother when she put it in though, so that would probably be as hard as putting in an IV.

Thank you again everyone! Wish I had a more solid and quicker plan, but it's more than what some of the people suffering here have.

 

[Whale_bones]

I highly, highly warn you against trying to inject yourself in your jugular vein. The odds of you being successful in that spot when you've never even injected yourself before are astronomically low, and you could easily hit your carotid artery. Hitting an artery results in excruciating pain, and can bring on the type of death no one wants (blood clots, gangrene, etc... you'd be found and get medical intervention long before actual death).

You could however practice learning to use a needle on a much much safer area, like your arm, by buying needles and injecting sterile water. Even people with small veins can do it, it just takes practice, hence why you should use water and not medication at first. There are some excellent resources online that show diagrams with the correct angle. And that way if you end up being unable to do it, you haven't done anything that will get you in a worse position.

 

[trainwreck2]

Thanks whale! Can you suggest a needle to buy?

Spitfire, here is the the subcutaneous stuff I have. Would this at all be possible for an OD of my liquid drugs? I even still have the IV pole they left behind.

 

[Spitfire]

I was thinking to write something about the Ativan you have. I remember reading what you said about them at first for what they were, but the pictures came later.

I do not think I recognized the ones you have by their packaging? I will have to take a closer look.

The reason I was wanting to say something was because I assumed you had a certain type of the liquid Ativan, a type which can basically be used for any route. Not totally sure for if it can be used in endotracheal drug therapy or not?

The Ativan I was thinking says very clearly on the label it is supposed to be for "IV use only" though...

I would not want someone using the Ativan you have in the wrong way, and I can't say for sure?

It looks like you have a 24 gauge butterfly, or angel wings needle with some length of probably very small diameter tubing in the larger package. Those are great to use for in a wide variety of different types of applications. The tubing is going to be the limiting factor for the flow rate to keep in mind about that.

I see dressings in the one picture.

I am not sure what the first picture is showing for the bottom left item? I can't make it out? I want to say it is a small syringe?

I was thinking. It would be a little hard to use medical equipment like this on oneself if they do not already feel good, and have never before attempted to do this stuff on someone else, let alone on themselves ever. It is too bad it is like that.

It could be done though, to teach oneself some of the basic things. Even more complicated things too.