Story my father's take on antinatalism

[Haematemesis]

today i was in the car with my father and out of nowhere i said im not going to have children

he said why

i said there is no reason to have

he said children are the joy of a house

i said that's a selfish reason

he then said your older brother takes care of me when i have financial problems

i said that's a selfish reason

he then said marriage is important

i said marriage without having children is a thing

he said then there would be nothing to keep you two together, look at me and your mother. if it wasn't for you we wouldn't be together

i said then that's better, being stuck in a dead relationship because of children is pathetic

then he said you will change your mind when you get older

and the conversation ended

 

[DivineSpark]

I am child free as well. I am too fucked up mentally in order to have children, but at least I am free human being.

 

[bankai]

Well posted OP. You summed up my thoughts perfectly.

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

"he said then there would be nothing to keep you two together, look at me and your mother. if it wasn't for you we wouldn't be together"

And then you realize why so many people are f*ked up in the head nowadays. Parents who are together but don't love each other, and thus reflect it on their children they feel obligated to have because "tradition" or something.

Then we look at it, we see how broken and sad it is, and we decide against it. And everyone panics because "underpopulation". Maybe put better living standards for future families and then, only then, I'll reconsider it. Honestly, everything about natalism is very selfish and irrational to the point it irritates me.

Another thing that makes me mad is that I put what others call "Extreme standards" at being parents. Like, taking care of all of a child's needs, listening to them, interacting, taking part on their pastimes, having some know how of pedagogy. You know, "Extreme". "What do you mean I can't just have a kid and forget about it? I made it so I can have someone do things for me, like the good old times!"

I wish I was kidding, but there are people still alive that think like that. And you know what, fine, I'm not here to change how people think. I'm here to remind that one shouldn't control how another lives. You wanna be a breeder? Go for it, it's your life; I do feel bad for the kids, though. I wanna be a non-breeder. What, you want me to be like you? Sorry, I let you live your life, you let me live mine.

Sorry for the rant...but I like to rant heheh.

 

[22yearsbroken]

Me and mt partner cant have children due to reasons... we looked at adoption and fostering and possible IVF ..but due to my health now i wouldnt live long enough to see them grow but... i would love to have children.. i have a daughter from a previous relationship.. which is complecated... but i do understand your thinking but.. i dont agree with it ..my daughter is and always will be the greatest tbing i have ever done in my life she may have been an accident but ...ahe was it a mistake..it can be sad and nieve to tbink that all that exists in the world its horrible things to come.. some times there is beauty and amazi g things in tbis world... it can be hard to see sometimes but it is there.

We are all here for our own reasons ..and we are all of age to make our own choices.. but they are our own .. good or bad right or wrong .. but to deny life when we are so happy and free to end one .. is a little ambiguous..

 

[Haematemesis]

"he said then there would be nothing to keep you two together, look at me and your mother. if it wasn't for you we wouldn't be together"

And then you realize why so many people are f*ked up in the head nowadays. Parents who are together but don't love each other, and thus reflect it on their children they feel obligated to have because "tradition" or something.

Then we look at it, we see how broken and sad it is, and we decide against it. And everyone panics because "underpopulation". Maybe put better living standards for future families and then, only then, I'll reconsider it. Honestly, everything about natalism is very selfish and irrational to the point it irritates me.

Another thing that makes me mad is that I put what others call "Extreme standards" at being parents. Like, taking care of all of a child's needs, listening to them, interacting, taking part on their pastimes, having some know how of pedagogy. You know, "Extreme". "What do you mean I can't just have a kid and forget about it? I made it so I can have someone do things for me, like the good old times!"

I wish I was kidding, but there are people still alive that think like that. And you know what, fine, I'm not here to change how people think. I'm here to remind that one shouldn't control how another lives. You wanna be a breeder? Go for it, it's your life; I do feel bad for the kids, though. I wanna be a non-breeder. What, you want me to be like you? Sorry, I let you live your life, you let me live mine.

Sorry for the rant...but I like to rant heheh.

i dont remember how many times ive been told "if you and your sister weren't born i would divorce your dad and wouldn't get abused" by my mother

Me and mt partner cant have children due to reasons... we looked at adoption and fostering and possible IVF ..but due to my health now i wouldnt live long enough to see them grow but... i would love to have children.. i have a daughter from a previous relationship.. which is complecated... but i do understand your thinking but.. i dont agree with it ..my daughter is and always will be the greatest tbing i have ever done in my life she may have been an accident but ...ahe was it a mistake..it can be sad and nieve to tbink that all that exists in the world its horrible things to come.. some times there is beauty and amazi g things in tbis world... it can be hard to see sometimes but it is there.

We are all here for our own reasons ..and we are all of age to make our own choices.. but they are our own .. good or bad right or wrong .. but to deny life when we are so happy and free to end one .. is a little ambiguous..

it doesn't matter if the world is cruel or not

this shouldn't be the main reason in my opinion

the basic question is, why? why have children in the first place?

having children is an active decision. it can happen by mistake but you decide to have intercourse at least (aside from sexual assault etc which is one of the reasons why abortion should be de-stigmatized

so if having children is an active decision then you should have a plausible reason to act a certain way, a way that will create a whole new life and person.

if i had the best life ever and i was given the option to be born or not i would choose non-existence because existence is meaningless and even if you have the best life it doesn't get you anywere.

i don't have a child, so he/she is non-existent. then if i decide to have a child i would be taking him/her out of nonexistence into existence only to give them a chance to be nonexistent again in the future. why disturb them?

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

i dont remember how many times ive been told "if you and your sister weren't born i would divorce your dad and wouldn't get abused" by my mother

Ah yes, blame the victim! Classic strategy by those wacky narcissistic parents! *laugh track* *claps* *seinfeld theme*

It happens, and it sucks, and it usually is because their parents did the same to them. And I'm "happy" at least I can identify it now...and it becomes so obvious so many parents are narcissistic it scares me.

Sorry about what happened to you. If you don't do it like you mother did then you already are a superior version!

 

[Haematemesis]

Ah yes, blame the victim! Classic strategy by those wacky narcissistic parents! *laugh track* *claps* *seinfeld theme*

It happens, and it sucks, and it usually is because their parents did the same to them. And I'm "happy" at least I can identify it now...and it becomes so obvious so many parents are narcissistic it scares me.

Sorry about what happened to you. If you don't do it like you mother did then you already are a superior version!

im breaking the 3.5 billion years old chain of procreation i think that's an improvement

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

Me and mt partner cant have children due to reasons... we looked at adoption and fostering and possible IVF ..but due to my health now i wouldnt live long enough to see them grow but... i would love to have children.. i have a daughter from a previous relationship.. which is complecated... but i do understand your thinking but.. i dont agree with it ..my daughter is and always will be the greatest tbing i have ever done in my life she may have been an accident but ...ahe was it a mistake..it can be sad and nieve to tbink that all that exists in the world its horrible things to come.. some times there is beauty and amazi g things in tbis world... it can be hard to see sometimes but it is there.

We are all here for our own reasons ..and we are all of age to make our own choices.. but they are our own .. good or bad right or wrong .. but to deny life when we are so happy and free to end one .. is a little ambiguous..

As much as I am suicidal at times, I do want people to make their own choices about their lives. When you make a choice about having another life brought, as long as you have the will and means to raise it with care and love, it should be granted. I'm happy you have that pleasure, but not everyone is fit for a parent. I would probably give you my own fertility if I could so another child goes to a family that wants it to be happy and grow!

If you give life, it is your duty to take care of that life so that it never wants to stop living.

 

[LigottiIsRight]

"You'll understand it/change your mind when you're older" translates to "I haven't a single solid argument in defense of my position, I can't even justify it for myself, so we're going to let the topic slide".

 

[Haematemesis]

"You'll understand it/change your mind when you're older" translates to "I haven't a single solid argument in defense of my position, I can't even justify it for myself, so we're going to let the topic slide".

i suppose he implied i will desire to have children when i get older or i will be content once i have children

but i think this only makes the argument more irrational because it kind of acknowledges the role of hormones and emotions rather than deep thoughts on the concept beforehand

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

Maybe there is a possibility that you will change your mind in the future, but there is no way to be certain. Your father seems to really want grandchildren, which is common on those older folks, though I really do not understand why. Probably because they need someone to rule over or something.

 

[Haematemesis]

Maybe there is a possibility that you will change your mind in the future, but there is no way to be certain. Your father seems to really want grandchildren, which is common on those older folks, though I really do not understand why. Probably because they need someone to rule over or something.

i have 3 nieces and 2 nephews isn't this enough

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

i have 3 nieces and 2 nephews isn't this enough

Some people are just never satisfied...is your family a rich or important one? One with a reason to "Further the bloodline" or some shit?

 

[Haematemesis]

Some people are just never satisfied...is your family a rich or important one? One with a reason to "Further the bloodline" or some shit?

nope, i have 4 siblings so it's normal that i have lots of nephews but our genetics is shit maybe we should stop for good

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

nope, i have 4 siblings so it's normal that i have lots of nephews but our genetics is shit maybe we should stop for good

Ok, if you want suppositions, I have some:

Spoiler: CHOOSE YOUR OPTIONS:

1 - Your dad is coo-coo crazy
2 - Your dad's parents did the same so he does the same
3 - Your dad believes in <insert your race here> genocide and great replacement bullshit
4 - Your dad wants to project himself on your children because his children doesn't let him anymore
5 - Your dad thinks he owns you
6 - Your dad is a <insert holy text here> literalist and there is a place where childless people go to <insert personal hell here>
7 - Your dad needs to sacrifice a newborn to <insert deity here> so that he gains UNLIMITED POWAH!

All of these seem reasonable reasons inside my head. There may be more but I can only go so far with limited information

 

[Haematemesis]

Ok, if you want suppositions, I have some:

Spoiler: CHOOSE YOUR OPTIONS:

1 - Your dad is coo-coo crazy
2 - Your dad's parents did the same so he does the same
3 - Your dad believes in <insert your race here> genocide and great replacement bullshit
4 - Your dad wants to project himself on your children because his children doesn't let him anymore
5 - Your dad thinks he owns you
6 - Your dad is a <insert holy text here> literalist and there is a place where childless people go to <insert personal hell here>
7 - Your dad needs to sacrifice a newborn to <insert deity here> so that he gains UNLIMITED POWAH!

All of these seem reasonable reasons inside my head. There may be more but I can only go so far with limited information

i hope he wants to sacrifice children to an ancient deity, it'd be so cool

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

i hope he wants to sacrifice children to an ancient deity, it'd be so cool

Honestly is the least aggravating choice hahahahah.

 

[Buh-bye!]

"he said then there would be nothing to keep you two together, look at me and your mother. if it wasn't for you we wouldn't be together"

And then you realize why so many people are f*ked up in the head nowadays. Parents who are together but don't love each other, and thus reflect it on their children they feel obligated to have because "tradition" or something.

Then we look at it, we see how broken and sad it is, and we decide against it. And everyone panics because "underpopulation". Maybe put better living standards for future families and then, only then, I'll reconsider it. Honestly, everything about natalism is very selfish and irrational to the point it irritates me.

Another thing that makes me mad is that I put what others call "Extreme standards" at being parents. Like, taking care of all of a child's needs, listening to them, interacting, taking part on their pastimes, having some know how of pedagogy. You know, "Extreme". "What do you mean I can't just have a kid and forget about it? I made it so I can have someone do things for me, like the good old times!"

I wish I was kidding, but there are people still alive that think like that. And you know what, fine, I'm not here to change how people think. I'm here to remind that one shouldn't control how another lives. You wanna be a breeder? Go for it, it's your life; I do feel bad for the kids, though. I wanna be a non-breeder. What, you want me to be like you? Sorry, I let you live your life, you let me live mine.

Sorry for the rant...but I like to rant heheh.

Isn't that still better than to be raised by a single parent or something?
I don't think there's the panic of Under population or anything unless you're running a religious cult and you want to raise an army. People really do it for the reasons mentioned above and while you're right calling them out for things like this, It's these altruistic actions of such parents that help the children much more than they damage them.
What damages children is, as you mentioned in your third paragraph the parents that think they can just make children and not bear any responsibility for them. Those parents are messed up.
All in all, i can't see how two people sticking together hurts the child. The older generation whenever i look at them seems to be much more selfless than this generation.
I think i just wanted to do a meaningless rant too. Just that i get the appeal of having kids, albeit i agree with almost everything an Anti-Natalist says.

"You'll understand it/change your mind when you're older" translates to "I haven't a single solid argument in defense of my position, I can't even justify it for myself, so we're going to let the topic slide".

Those are just the words one says when they can't explain a felling since they are not as good at arguments as we are. They don't just have words prepared for everything really. How old are you? As one grows old, they do feel some of the things people claim to be ' You'd understand when you get older ' type, start feeling real.
All in all it's just that they didn't have words for an experience or sudden moment they might have had that got them all exhilarated for having a child.

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

Isn't that still better than to be raised by a single parent or something?
I don't think there's the panic of Under population or anything unless you're running a religious cult and you want to raise an army. People really do it for the reasons mentioned above and while you're right calling them out for things like this, It's these altruistic actions of such parents that help the children much more than they damage them.
What damages children is, as you mentioned in your third paragraph the parents that think they can just make children and not bear any responsibility for them. Those parents are messed up.
All in all, i can't see how two people sticking together hurts the child. The older generation whenever i look at them seems to be much more selfless than this generation.

"Isn't that still better than to be raised by a single parent or something?"

I think it's better people that can't raise children don't have children, no matter if they're single or not, but to entertain that thought, it would be harsher for the parent, but better for the child, to have one sane parent than two crazy ones.

"I don't think there's the panic of Under population or anything unless you're running a religious cult and you want to raise an army."

Exactly.

"People really do it for the reasons mentioned above and while you're right calling them out for things like this, It's these altruistic actions of such parents that help the children much more than they damage them."

Raising children to be mentally broken in the future, causing even more suffering is far worse than having no child. Children don't need false love.

"All in all, i can't see how two people sticking together hurts the child. The older generation whenever i look at them seems to be much more selfless than this generation."

The problem lies that the older generations have different ways of raising, sometimes completely dissonant, to what children actually need. I do not always assume malice, in fact most of the times it is ignorance. If the couple is willing to raise a child and be ready to learn new ways of raising and concepts as they raise it, then it's fine. Most of the time, either the parents don't know what to do, or do whatever their parents did to them, which is perpetuating even older ways of raising.

I just want to make sure that if you want to raise a child, you'll have to learn a lot, and work a lot. Otherwise, you'll surely be raising someone that wishes they weren't alive. And parents who push their offspring to have even more offspring are going to have a lot of those.

While I did say natalism is selfish, I think i did misuse the word "natalism". It's more like "anti-choice". Just don't bring more suffering to a world already overflowing with it, ok?

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

Yeah i agree to most of the things you say. It's just that i think some parents still do real good with parenting considering how they were raised. These were people who had conservative stuffs pushed into their minds and it's worth respecting it if they don't do the same to their kids and act pro-choice. Just that there's so many people calling out parents as their reasons to end it all and i was one of those too, i still am i believe but, it isn't like they didn't try. We actively criticize everything about the older generations even though some of the things they did or practice, as conservative or orthodox as it may have been, were of fruitful results.
I am just stretching things now never mind.
I support pro-choice though, and not having kids when you think you're ill fitted for them. This generation has a lot of people who aren't calm enough to raise a child without a nanny, therapist and ' parents support group for parents who are fed up with their 2 year old '.
I could be that too, but whatever. I'd kill myself long before all that.
Also, you don't have to feel agitated with this discussion if you do. Just in case you do i have to remind you i am in favor of most of the things here. I am just trying to learn perspectives.

No worries. I was a bit iffy about it because I thought it would descend into a huge discussion and I don't have much mental energy for those, but I figured this is a community that understands itself, and it seems I was right!

I'm not blaming those who try. In fact, those who do try are the unsung heroes of this whole ordeal, usually already pushed to have children and budging to that, and having to figure out stuff on their own. They could just choose to give up but they didn't, they really tried. They are good people.

Who I'm talking to is those who push people and relatives to just breed for the sake of breed. That is what pushes people towards being parents who don't wanna parent. That is the trend I'm trying to stop. The trend that more children is always better.

Sorry if I felt angry or agressive towards you. I'm just not good with refutations and I'm always worried about the feelings of the other side. I'd be an awful debater hahahaha! But thanks for your thoughts. I'm happy to see people aren't as black and white as they're often made to be. Helps my judgement. *hugs*

 

[SilentSadness]

Nothing like a parent telling their child why it was morally good to have them.

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

You don't need to worry about being good or bad at arguments, you just stay like you are. You were calm in all the messages, as you are in this one. I only pointed that out because i believed it 'could' possibly get to a point of mental exhaustion on either ones side.

Agreed to what you say. Relatives suck either way, they are the ones that pull "Traditional values", "Societal expectations" and other bullshit to insane levels. I steer clear of anybody whose like that, i hate judgments and people who are judgmental. The trend about more children being better is also messed up. As i said before, i agree with you all on almost everything. It's just that sometimes i feel bad for my own parents when i see myself blaming everything i am on them but at the same having moments where i am glad i at least had parents?

Fuck

It would be logical to blame a lot of things on parenting, both good and bad. The takeaway from that is that there's always good AND bad things, no matter how small one side is. Most parents that actually try to have at least a balance between good and bad things passed to their children, so we become conflicted: Were they bad, were they good? No, they were human, and tried their best, and lo and behold, they made mistakes sometimes.

I think it's important we think about that. There are no doubt very bad parents that just don't want to parent, but most are in the middle: They want to balance their personal lives with their family lives. Being alive is complicated, no wonder a lot of people want to erase their save files here.

In the end, if you see your parent isn't actively harmful or narcissistic or treats you like property, they are probably trying, and you should give them a hug right now, and tell them you love them, just in case. If they give back, they are surely trying.

 

[Buh-bye!]

It would be logical to blame a lot of things on parenting, both good and bad. The takeaway from that is that there's always good AND bad things, no matter how small one side is. Most parents that actually try to have at least a balance between good and bad things passed to their children, so we become conflicted: Were they bad, were they good? No, they were human, and tried their best, and lo and behold, they made mistakes sometimes.

I think it's important we think about that. There are no doubt very bad parents that just don't want to parent, but most are in the middle: They want to balance their personal lives with their family lives. Being alive is complicated, no wonder a lot of people want to erase their save files here.

In the end, if you see your parent isn't actively harmful or narcissistic or treats you like property, they are probably trying, and you should give them a hug right now, and tell them you love them, just in case. If they give back, they are surely trying.

Exactly. This would resonate for so many people in these times actually. I guess it's just easy to scapegoat sometimes even when nobody is at fault except for life being life. Living really is a complicated thing and it would be really good if people just started to empathize with other people and their problems more. Starting with their own house. There are bad parents or siblings too though. In the end it's a choice whether you decide to acknowledge for the 50% efforts or hate for the 50% fuck ups.
It's good though, the fact that people now at least are educated enough to think before having kids and not paying heed to the senseless reasons to bring life into this world.