Discussion Motivation, hope and letting go

[GrumpyFrog]

The concept of recovery from suicidality is a tricky one for me. And I thought about how much the idea of recovery is connected to the idea of hope. If you feel bad enough to CTB, the one thing that can keep you alive and afloat is hope that at some point in the future something will change, allowing you to feel better.

I understand that for some people desire to CTB stems from the general dislike of the very concept of life or some unavoidable aspects of it, such as being a part of the society. There are people that experienced different aspects of life and didn't feel good about any of them, so they dislike the whole idea of life and that's why they want out. I understand that hope for someone like that is tricky and probably unlikely. Although at one point of my life I did have a similar worldview due, yet still hoped something can change for the better - I just couldn't quite put my finger on what it can be.

But for the majority of people their big dark void is circumstantial. They don't hate the very concept of life - just the life they have. And therefore they are hanging out to however little hope for improvement they have.

Spoiler: A rant on helping yourself with "professional help"

The reason why I don't believe in helpfulnes of "professional help", at least for me, is that I know what the solution they offer look like. They have a pre-set number of things you can do to "improve your quality of life" that are supposed to make you feel better and after forcing yourself to do them for a while you're supposed to get genuinely motivated to continue. At one point I did all those things: spent time outdoors, had small talk with random people, ran in the mornings, meditated, cooked myself "good" meals, cleaned my apartment, avoided drugs and alcohol, put on a freaking face mask while lying in a bubble bath, wrote in a journal about my feelings, and when none of that helped at all started to take "happy pills" to top it all off. The only potential positive effect of all that was keeping me from being up all night crying, because now I was too exhausted and cried myself to sleep fairly quickly. It did nothing to fill my internal dark void, because having a clean livingroom and pimple-free soft skin weren't the things I genuinely cared about. When my doctor told me to just keep forcing myself to do these things and wait for something to change, and in the meantime maybe try a slightly different kind of happy pills that maybe will work a little better, I began to suspect that the point of this whole thing was for me to appear like I'm feeling better even if I'm not, just because I'm doing all the "good" things, and therefore make it appear like my doctor's solution to fix me was working, they were doing a good job and deserved money they were being paid for this job. Or maybe official medicine is wrong about saying "clinical depression" both about people who are very low just because they are depressed, and about people who have the "big sad" because of their personal list of reasons to be depressed about, and the complex of measures doctors are offering is good for the former, and not the latter.

So I wonder how many people, just like me, are holding onto a hope for an actual change, no matter how small that hope is? Not the therapeutic "change your life by washing the dishes on time, excercising and taking this antidepressant!" kind of a change, but something meaningful actually happening (not that the things I listed can't be meaningful for someone, but I'm sure they aren't meaningful for everyone). Maybe you hope you'll win the lottery, or get a job offer of your dreams out of the blue, or that you'll get some amazing idea that will become your road to success. I know many people put their hopes into getting attention either from an abstract or from a very particular romantic interest. Do you have something that you hope for deep down in your heart, something that could feel you good enough to stop thinking about CTB at least for a while? What is it?

And another thing I wonder is - do you think holding on to a highly unrealistic hope is a good or a bad thing? Do you have to let go in the face of evidence that your hope is fruitless?

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Yeah, I think I get exactly what you mean. I've mentioned too many times that I'm still holding on for the vague hope that I can find a love interest. I know it's not supposed to save me and automatically give me a happily ever after but when everything is taken into consideration, I truly think that's the only thing that will motivate me enough to take all the other extra steps to recover.

Spoiler: Failed recovery plans

I know this because I too have made my honest attempts at all the other things people say I'm supposed to do. I've attempted to exercise, and not just for a few days, I went to the gym for multiple times a week for over six months. It didn't get any less exhausting, I didn't get any less sore when I was done, I didn't even get a rush of endorphins and start to enjoy it like people said I should and I didn't even lose much weight because the exhaustion and pain made my body eat more to compensate for it.

Speaking of eating, I have tried to go on diets or even just make healthier choices. I spent almost a year counting calories and making efforts to keep nutrients in mind. It was so freaking miserable. The stress of finding out everything I enjoy eating was just killing me made things worse and even food I enjoyed that was good for me somehow started to taste worse just because I was being more conscious. In fact anything that even pretended to be healthy just made me hungrier and hungrier. Even the keto diet, which is supposedly all fat and protein, failed in less than a day. I can't even make minor decisions to eat right because being aware of something being healthy just makes it worse for me. The opposite is also true. For example I started only enjoying fake meat just because I realized it was still unhealthy processed garbage.

The only time I managed to lose significant weight was ironically while I was working at the kitchen of a fast food restaurant. I wasn't TRYING to lose weight but I lost about 30 pounds due to the physical effort I had to do plus the fact that I usually only ate 1 or 2 meals a day each being only $7 worth of the food from my work. Unfortunately once I realized it was happening my body panicked and forced me to eat more to make up for it. I gained about ten of those pounds back in a month.

You might be thinking that if I could do it before I could do it again but the thing is I was distracted. I had to do it subconsciously because once I knew about it my body sabotaged itself. I was mainly distracted by the coworker I was attracted to, she was a girl who reached out to ME first and we started out as friends. When things didn't work out between us (due to her getting someone else as a boyfriend and tried as I might I couldn't stay friends that way). Didn't help that the only reason I put so much effort into my work was because I was so stoked to see her there. For the first time in my life I felt purpose and enjoyment. When she left the job, I did too because it stopped being fulfilling.

Those moments where I was happy to be doing exhausting menial labor were when I realized that I can only do things I don't want to do if my heart is into it. When I was conversing with the more recent love interest a few months ago I was actually so ready to go back into recovery mode but unfortunately five days wasn't enough to start anything. During that time though my "two selves" that were at war each other actually seemed to have put their differences aside. For some reason I actually felt like I was one unified person instead of two warring demons. I guess that's the effect love has on me.

That's also why I think it's impossible to start loving myself before I love other people/have them love me. I know that that's how it's "supposed to do it" but not me I guess. I don't care what positive bullshit people spout, that's just not how I work and it never will be. Even my therapist seemed to agree which is why she was stoked on me joining dating apps (I didn't have the heart to tell her I think they're stupid but I still use them anyway just to say I tried and surprise surprise it bears no fruit either).

So to summarize, yes. I think I'm still holding to hope and yet I know better than to buy in to the typical cliche advice that so many are willing to throw out just because they assume I haven't tried it yet. I've lived almost 27 years and though it seems young to some, it really doesn't feel that way when I've tried so much and had it all fail nonetheless.

I think maybe besides having a near perfect love interest drop from the sky and find me, the only other way I could recover is if I watched a movie or show that was somehow able to perfectly capture everything I went through and show me a perfect way to get out of it that I can actually do. No deus ex machinas, no cheap/hokey advice, and the character's situation has to be close enough to my life that it is all applicable and actionable. I get a lot of my values/beliefs/behaviors from the media I watch but so far none of them have truly given me the walkthrough for life that I desire.....

As for the other thing...I don't know for sure if any of that is a good thing (probably not). But I know I'm not a good person and that knowing alone is almost never enough to get me to change. I know X thing I'm doing is bad/not helping. No duh. It still doesn't make my stupid, pathetic, and useless flesh vessel want to care enough so why does knowing even matter?

All of that is why I think my situation is ultimately hopeless though I'd love to be proven wrong. Obviously I think plenty of people can recover way easier than I can so maybe that trite advice does work on them. Just not me.

 

[signifying nothing]

I held on to a very stupid hope for many years, but it got me through those years.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

I know X thing I'm doing is bad/not helping. No duh. It still doesn't make my stupid, pathetic, and useless flesh vessel want to care enough so why does knowing even matter?

Oh, yeah, I totally get that, The things is, "bad" and "helping/not helping" is subjective. Somebody telling you "thing bad" or "thing good" doesn't automatically make you feel bad/good about it, and motivation is largely based around how you feel about things. You aren't going to want to slap yourself in the face because I tell you it's good for you, right? Because you can tell that slapping yourself in the face hurts and do not feel any positive effects from it. A similar thing, but in reverse, works with me and unhealthy food and alcohol. I eat pizza and it feels good. I drink whiskey and I feel even better. It doesn't hurt immediately and while I know it might hurt me in the long run I have yet to experience even the tiniest amount of it's negative effect. So telling me that pizza and whiskey is bad for me doesn't convince me, because the logical explanation of why those things are bad is totally disconnected from the way those things feel. And ultimately, we all want to feel good.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Oh, yeah, I totally get that, The things is, "bad" and "helping/not helping" is subjective. Somebody telling you "thing bad" or "thing good" doesn't automatically make you feel bad/good about it, and motivation is largely based around how you feel about things. You aren't going to want to slap yourself in the face because I tell you it's good for you, right? Because you can tell that slapping yourself in the face hurts and do not feel any positive effects from it. A similar thing, but in reverse, works with me and unhealthy food and alcohol. I eat pizza and it feels good. I drink whiskey and I feel even better. It doesn't hurt immediately and while I know it might hurt me in the long run I have yet to experience even the tiniest amount of it's negative effect. So telling me that pizza and whiskey is bad for me doesn't convince me, because the logical explanation of why those things are bad is totally disconnected from the way those things feel. And ultimately, we all want to feel good.

Exactly. Short term goodness is way more rewarding than long term more often than not for me too.

 

[262653]

My only hope right now (aside from the certain one) is to feel better by getting to know myself better and dealing with my traumas, neuroses, screw ups, and other things that need fixing. It's an ongoing process and there are some improvements, so there is at least some basis for hope. What also helps me is burying myself in time- and effort-consuming tasks. There are so many practically infinite dungeons I can die exploring, like analytical sciences or languages or whatever.

 

[Makko]

Audacious dreams is why I live. I want to experience great things. I'll never find happiness in being normal and mundane. If I'm going to endure a titanic struggle, there had better be a promise of a prize to match.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

My only hope right now (aside from the certain one) is to feel better by getting to know myself better and dealing with my traumas, neuroses, screw ups, and other things that need fixing. It's an ongoing process and there are some improvements, so there is at least some basis for hope.

Well, I'd say if you experienced any improvement at all, as in "becoming better helps me feel better", there is a good basis for hope. If you feel motivated enough to work on that, it's awesome.

If I'm going to endure a titanic struggle, there had better be a promise of a prize to match.

Exactly. That's why I wonder if hopes and dreams divorced from reality are still a positive thing, simply because of their motivational value.

 

[ohhgeeitsme]

I definitely try to hold on to hope. Even though I do know my anxiety isn't completely situational, I do tend to think my depression is. I could be wrong, but I do think it's something that could get better if my life improved. If I found a job I liked (I don't even have to love it, just not hate it) that paid enough for me to live comfortably, I think it'd be willing to live. Of course, there is always a chance that could happen and I still won't be happy but I do think it could make me comfortable enough to not want to kill myself. Stress would be down too, so my anxiety would probably be manageable. At this point, the most realistic thing I can hope for is that my perception and desires will change as I age. I'm a completely different person than I was 10 years ago. Even at 34, I'm different than I was at 30. So my hope is to make it to a point where I just don't give AF anymore and where having little money, a shit job and a shit apartment doesn't bother me as much. It's kind of pathetic for that to be my goal now, but I guess that's where I'm at.

 

[262653]

If you feel motivated enough to work on that, it's awesome.

Bad feelings are good motivators. The process mostly involves asking and answering questions, forming habits, and paying attention to thoughts, sensations, and behaviors. A lot of... work can be done without even getting one's ass of a chair. (Normally I try to avoid using the word "work" due to strong negative associations I'm having with it but I can't think of anything more suitable here.) Though there seem to be other requirements. I can hardly concentrate when I'm starved, malnourished or poisoned.

 

[death137]

There is no hope for my main problem but if I find love then I will give life a chance. It will motivate me to bear my suffering. I was planning to ctb the coming Saturday but recently something happened that has the potential to turn to love. So I've postponed my ctb date but if it doesn't work out then I will ctb.

 

[BeansOfRequirement]

I'm too shitty to get anything good, so I don't have any big hopes. A job, my own place and gf is probably too much for me to manage. And I'd still be mentally ill if I got that, so idk. I am very fortunate to not have had gone through more physical pain though, so that's nice.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

If I found a job I liked (I don't even have to love it, just not hate it) that paid enough for me to live comfortably, I think it'd be willing to live. Of course, there is always a chance that could happen and I still won't be happy but I do think it could make me comfortable enough to not want to kill myself. Stress would be down too, so my anxiety would probably be manageable. At this point, the most realistic thing I can hope for is that my perception and desires will change as I age.

Aw, c'mon! Having a job that doesn't completely suck ass is not an unrealistic hope! It's a normal human desire and it's...how do I put it...actionable? As in you can do things that will help you make this a reality. I know this pandemic circus doesn't exactly help anyone with their career aspirations, but it's not going to last forever.

Bad feelings are good motivators.

They indeed are. But on the bright side, you wouldn't be motivated if you felt equally bad no matter what, which implies whatever you're doing (let's not call it work) brings you at least some relief.

I'm too shitty to get anything good, so I don't have any big hopes.

I'm pretty sure that's not true. If for no other reason, then at least because being "non-shitty" doesn't affect your chances of having good things much.

 

[ohhgeeitsme]

Aw, c'mon! Having a job that doesn't completely suck ass is not an unrealistic hope! It's a normal human desire and it's...how do I put it...actionable? As in you can do things that will help you make this a reality. I know this pandemic circus doesn't exactly help anyone with their career aspirations, but it's not going to last forever.

It's not completely unrealistic but close when your anxiety is so bad that simply leaving the house is an ordeal and have literally hyperventilated during a job interview and usually can't even get words out without almost crying in those situations. Entry level job interviews that's like two easy questions, and sometimes are just about your availability aren't as bad and I can usually get through them but even those are stressful to me. So I guess really I should have just said, not having crippling anxiety that makes everything a million times more difficult and sometimes impossible and have people understand and not invalidate that would make me want to live.

 

[BeansOfRequirement]

I'm pretty sure that's not true. If for no other reason, then at least because being "non-shitty" doesn't affect your chances of having good things much.

I'm not someone that struggles with believing that I'm worse than I am. I just have literally failed at all of my educational-and-work attempts due to being mentally weak. I don't punish myself for it and I try to use the last bits of youth I have left to try once more to get money and leave mom's basement but I won't count on it and then start freaking out when I realize that I'm garbage for the sixth time.

 

[262653]

They indeed are. But on the bright side, you wouldn't be motivated if you felt equally bad no matter what, which implies whatever you're doing (let's not call it work) brings you at least some relief.

(I know! I'll call it inner work, from now and onward. That way I won't feel like I'm doing something unworthy of my efforts. But that's too many letters, maybe call it play? It is kind of fun. Or I could just call it work and treat all "work" words as homonyms they are.)