Medical professionals

[Jessica5]

Do they seriously feel they're being ethical when they "save" a suicidal person who ends up as a vegetable afterwords?

 

[justpeachy]

I think it varies. I am in the mental health field and I have worked in the emergency room. I have my own share of issues hence being here but it's much easier said than done when face to face with a human that is suffering and just doing nothing even if that may be the kinder thing to do and frankly the reality is that there are lawsuits. Families will sue you and then I lose my license, my home possibly, my whole life which then affects my husband and child so there's more to it than just "not saving someone." At what point is ending their suffering equal to destroying my livelihood? It is different if they're terminally ill and live in a state or country where there is physical assisted suicide but that is not used for mental health ever in the US. It is actually a rule that you cannot have major mental health issues to do it.
And at the moment they enter your emergency room there is no way to immediately tell if they'll be a vegetable. You do what you are there to do, save their life. It can't be determined that they'll be a "vegetable" until much much later in the ICU so the doctor who saves the person really has no inkling of what the turn out will be. I've had people who had gunshot wounds to the head survive and walk away weeks later and I have had ppl that overdosed on a minimal amount of drugs never regain a pulse.

 

[PointlessStruggle]

As the person above me said, there's layers to it. If countries ever decide to change their moronic policies on how this stuff works though I think it would become more common to see professionals lettting people go rather then yanking them back to life

 

[justpeachy]

It's not the doctors choice to make that choice and not save someone that is unconscious from an attempt.

 

[Niftypoint124]

Probably, given that whole Hippocratic Oath bit.

 

[CoalmineCanary]

Maybe this thread with help give perspective:



I live in Canada and I am sure the motives of the doctors in my province have different motives from the doctors in the United States. I think the system one is practising in or the service provided also affects one's choices.

 

[Gnip]

I think it varies. I am in the mental health field and I have worked in the emergency room. I have my own share of issues hence being here but it's much easier said than done when face to face with a human that is suffering and just doing nothing even if that may be the kinder thing to do and frankly the reality is that there are lawsuits. Families will sue you and then I lose my license, my home possibly, my whole life which then affects my husband and child so there's more to it than just "not saving someone." At what point is ending their suffering equal to destroying my livelihood? It is different if they're terminally ill and live in a state or country where there is physical assisted suicide but that is not used for mental health ever in the US. It is actually a rule that you cannot have major mental health issues to do it.
And at the moment they enter your emergency room there is no way to immediately tell if they'll be a vegetable. You do what you are there to do, save their life. It can't be determined that they'll be a "vegetable" until much much later in the ICU so the doctor who saves the person really has no inkling of what the turn out will be. I've had people who had gunshot wounds to the head survive and walk away weeks later and I have had ppl that overdosed on a minimal amount of drugs never regain a pulse.

When faced with a DNR, are you still required to try saving a mental health patient to preserve your license and livelihood?

I would expect and hope that activists in the mental health field agitate for the universal legalization of psychiatrist administered euthanasia as practiced for years in Belgium by the great Lieve Thienpoint, and in the Netherlands by the equally great Kit Vanmechelen, very possibly the two finest and most competent psychiatrists alive and practicing today, the best in their field at curing mental health problems with an infallible method.

 

[Life_and_Death]

I think it varies. I am in the mental health field and I have worked in the emergency room. I have my own share of issues hence being here but it's much easier said than done when face to face with a human that is suffering and just doing nothing even if that may be the kinder thing to do and frankly the reality is that there are lawsuits. Families will sue you and then I lose my license, my home possibly, my whole life which then affects my husband and child so there's more to it than just "not saving someone." At what point is ending their suffering equal to destroying my livelihood? It is different if they're terminally ill and live in a state or country where there is physical assisted suicide but that is not used for mental health ever in the US. It is actually a rule that you cannot have major mental health issues to do it.
And at the moment they enter your emergency room there is no way to immediately tell if they'll be a vegetable. You do what you are there to do, save their life. It can't be determined that they'll be a "vegetable" until much much later in the ICU so the doctor who saves the person really has no inkling of what the turn out will be. I've had people who had gunshot wounds to the head survive and walk away weeks later and I have had ppl that overdosed on a minimal amount of drugs never regain a pulse.

i personally find it interesting how "'they" will leave a human to suffer for years but kill an animal without too much of a second thought. we all have brains and nerve endings, they feel it just like we do. ive seen affection, pain, depression and so many more emotions in animals just by watching them, i dont understand the difference. im not talking about just killing us but maybe a happy medium. give us mercy and maybe try to help the animal, i mean thats a vets job.

(when i said "they" i wasnt referring to you but actually the human race as a whole because it seems the majority are all like "dont let them die ill be sad"....sooooo what? we leave them to suffer instead? and here im referring to mental illness, coma, basically everything that leaves a person suffering. i just dont want you to feel like im singling you out, i just thought if anyone you could give me your opinion on this although im welcome to other peoples opinion if youre reading this)

 

[Niftypoint124]

When faced with a DNR, are you still required to try saving a mental health patient to preserve your license and livelihood?

I think this depends a lot on the state (US) - https://www.verywellhealth.com/do-not-resuscitate-dnr-orders-1298839

DNR's come from physicians, not patients, which means you have to get someone to signoff on them. Where I live, you have to file them with every hospital you could be taken to if you want it to be adhered to. AFAIK only CPR or other resuscitation method is covered by a DNR - any other form of treatment is not.

 

[Ardesevent]

I doubt doctors care. You're just something they have to fix or they might lose a promotion, maybe get fired.

 

[Hurt]

The have to do it because they get paid for that, not because they care about your health.

 

[Weary Soul]

I am wondering about DNR based on religious beliefs. Does that have to be documented? I am going to go research. Thanks for the information !!!

 

[Spitfire]

Do they seriously feel they're being ethical when they "save" a suicidal person who ends up as a vegetable afterwords?

By the time a suicidal person in that type of condition ends up falling into the hands of a group of medical professionals who dedicate their lives to helping strangers.. to determine the fate and the consequences simply are... what it is.

There are plenty of times when a medical professional will call it. They are the ones to determine when it is time to call it based on their judgments. It is what they do...

 

[demuic]

Do they seriously feel they're being ethical when they "save" a suicidal person who ends up as a vegetable afterwords?

I think so.. after all, "life" is better than death, riiight? Even though that's no life at all..

 

[Spitfire]

Do you treat a stroke patient when operating as a medical professional, even though you know the likely outcome of it?

Does that compare?

A girl I will call Renee (not her name). A nurse I will call Virginia (not her name) and I were holding Renee's hand together while Virginia and I were talking to her, after we finally got her shivers under control once she was rapidly cooled.. after a drug overdose suicide attempt where her life was saved. She would have been a vegetable if it were not for our help.

If it is pointless to continue providing medical care it gets called. This is not an easy decision to make at times.

Many many people who have been these patients come back to personally talk and thank the people who were involved in their care when they are 'saved'... and who is going to become the vegetable?

 

[Jessica5]

Do you treat a stroke patient when operating as a medical professional, even though you know the likely outcome of it?

Does that compare?

A girl I will call Renee (not her name). A nurse I will call Virginia (not her name) and I were holding Renee's hand together while Virginia and I were talking to her, after we finally got her shivers under control once she was rapidly cooled.. after a drug overdose suicide attempt where her life was saved. She would have been a vegetable if it were not for our help.

If it is pointless to continue providing medical care it gets called. This is not an easy decision to make at times.

Many many people who have been these patients come back to personally talk and thank the people who were involved in their care when they are 'saved'... and who is going to become the vegetable?

There is a difference, because most stroke patients want to live. A suicidal person, on the other hand, has made it clear they want to die.

 

[Aap]

You are ignoring reality, to be honest. While sometimes, or even many times, intent or the situation is known, it is not always so. Even when intent is known or suspected, how many posts have you seen here of people who attempted and changed their mind? The fact is, a physician in the ER has no way of knowing if the person coming in wanted to die, changed their mind, was the victim of foul play, or was an accident. I think you misjudge how affected many, though certainly not all, doctors and nurses are by the people they treat.

the above is largely irrelevant, as the legal system would destroy any physician who didn't attempt to save lives based on a judgement call about "intent." Any arguing of the above reflects a lack of understanding of the medical or legal realities.

 

[demuic]

Even when intent is known or suspected, how many posts have you seen here of people who attempted and changed their mind?

Yet no one cares about those who never changed their minds and wish they hadn't survived....

 

[Wayfaerer]

Probably, given that whole Hippocratic Oath bit.

Which is a sham. I remember when oaths used to mean a lot. These days, they mean nothing. Honor is dead.

Maybe this thread with help give perspective:



I live in Canada and I am sure the motives of the doctors in my province have different motives from the doctors in the United States. I think the system one is practising in or the service provided also affects one's choices.

In the US, we probably have the most corrupt doctors in the world! They have no shame in their cronyism.

 

[justpeachy]

I am wondering about DNR based on religious beliefs. Does that have to be documented? I am going to go research. Thanks for the information !!!

Yes. if you do not have a documented DNR you will be attempted to be revived.

Yet no one cares about those who never changed their minds and wish they hadn't survived....

How on earth is the emergency room doctor supposed to know that? You honestly think they should make the choice for any person who might be a suicide and is not alert and just say ehhh fuck it they must not want to live and walk away? You clearly don't understand the medical system. Do you get that even if a doctor had the best intentions with that they would be obliterated by the family or state or boards? They would lose their license and entire life over that choice. So as medical professionals we deserve to lose all we have accomplished in our lives, losing our home, family, etc to make a call that we have absolutely no idea if that person even wanted to live? They may have changed their mind, they may not even be a suicide! When you get someone in the ER it's not uncommon you don't even have a name let alone what the hell happened. You may think suicide and it could be a homicide. It's not your job as a doctor to determine who lives and dies in a god like role.
It is very evident who has not ever worked in the medical field..... and has absolutely no idea how it even works when someone comes into the emergency department.

When faced with a DNR, are you still required to try saving a mental health patient to preserve your license and livelihood?

I would expect and hope that activists in the mental health field agitate for the universal legalization of psychiatrist administered euthanasia as practiced for years in Belgium by the great Lieve Thienpoint, and in the Netherlands by the equally great Kit Vanmechelen, very possibly the two finest and most competent psychiatrists alive and practicing today, the best in their field at curing mental health problems with an infallible method.

If there is a DNR and you have actual paperwork, no you cannot continue to attempt to revive but the issue is most of the time they don't come in with this paperwork so there's no way to even know it exists unless you make damn sure it's in your file at every local hospital and that they know who you are when you are found. Honestly i would literally attach the legal papers to your body so they are taken seriously otherwise legally a doctor cannot just make that choice without valid evidence that medically it wouldn't be appropriate to continue life saving or your family calls it and the doctor also thinks it is futile to continue.

There is a difference, because most stroke patients want to live. A suicidal person, on the other hand, has made it clear they want to die.

But when a parent comes into your ER and isn't alert you often have no idea what's occurred. You cannot call immediately that it was a suicide... so do you just say fuck it and stop bc it might be a suicide? What if that person had changed their mind? Doctors absolutely do not have that right to play God and just say they aren't going to save you because you *might * be a suicide. It's not uncommon in the ED that we don't even know a damn name let alone what occurred until we've already gotten a pulse back.

The have to do it because they get paid for that, not because they care about your health.

No doctor goes into that field for the money. Do you have an idea the amount of school and debt they have to go through to become a doctor? Sure there are bad doctors but there are bad people in every field... there are plenty of amazing people in the medical field who help people everyday. It's incredibly naive to say and act like even every person in the medical field is just a horrible person who wants to prolong your suffering especially based off just your anecdotal evidence.

 

[demuic]

How on earth is the emergency room doctor supposed to know that? You honestly think they should make the choice for any person who might be a suicide and is not alert and just say ehhh fuck it they must not want to live and walk away? You clearly don't understand the medical system. Do you get that even if a doctor had the best intentions with that they would be obliterated by the family or state or boards? They would lose their license and entire life over that choice. So as medical professionals we deserve to lose all we have accomplished in our lives, losing our home, family, etc to make a call that we have absolutely no idea if that person even wanted to live? They may have changed their mind, they may not even be a suicide! When you get someone in the ER it's not uncommon you don't even have a name let alone what the hell happened. You may think suicide and it could be a homicide. It's not your job as a doctor to determine who lives and dies in a god like role.
It is very evident who has not ever worked in the medical field..... and has absolutely no idea how it even works when someone comes into the emergency department.

I never said an emergency room doctor is supposed to know that. Only saying how the narrative is always about those who regretted it, and not the many who didn't. Many find the entire concept of persevering "life" while forgoing quality of life to be completely barbaric.. Not sure why you're deciding to take this whole thread so personally...

 

[Spitfire]

Yes. if you do not have a documented DNR you will be attempted to be revived.

How on earth is the emergency room doctor supposed to know that? You honestly think they should make the choice for any person who might be a suicide and is not alert and just say ehhh fuck it they must not want to live and walk away? You clearly don't understand the medical system. Do you get that even if a doctor had the best intentions with that they would be obliterated by the family or state or boards? They would lose their license and entire life over that choice. So as medical professionals we deserve to lose all we have accomplished in our lives, losing our home, family, etc to make a call that we have absolutely no idea if that person even wanted to live? They may have changed their mind, they may not even be a suicide! When you get someone in the ER it's not uncommon you don't even have a name let alone what the hell happened. You may think suicide and it could be a homicide. It's not your job as a doctor to determine who lives and dies in a god like role.
It is very evident who has not ever worked in the medical field..... and has absolutely no idea how it even works when someone comes into the emergency department.
If there is a DNR and you have actual paperwork, no you cannot continue to attempt to revive but the issue is most of the time they don't come in with this paperwork so there's no way to even know it exists unless you make damn sure it's in your file at every local hospital and that they know who you are when you are found. Honestly i would literally attach the legal papers to your body so they are taken seriously otherwise legally a doctor cannot just make that choice without valid evidence that medically it wouldn't be appropriate to continue life saving or your family calls it and the doctor also thinks it is futile to continue.

But when a parent comes into your ER and isn't alert you often have no idea what's occurred. You cannot call immediately that it was a suicide... so do you just say fuck it and stop bc it might be a suicide? What if that person had changed their mind? Doctors absolutely do not have that right to play God and just say they aren't going to save you because you *might * be a suicide. It's not uncommon in the ED that we don't even know a damn name let alone what occurred until we've already gotten a pulse back.

No doctor goes into that field for the money. Do you have an idea the amount of school and debt they have to go through to become a doctor? Sure there are bad doctors but there are bad people in every field... there are plenty of amazing people in the medical field who help people everyday. It's incredibly naive to say and act like even every person in the medical field is just a horrible person who wants to prolong your suffering especially based off just your anecdotal evidence.

Very good

There is a difference, because most stroke patients want to live. A suicidal person, on the other hand, has made it clear they want to die.

I would not agree that most stroke patients want to live. Most stroke patients might not have ever had a prior thought about their developing predicament at its onset when it occurs.

If you treat and get to know one or many of them (who have strokes), and then you continue to have a relationship with them over time, they may reveal a different opinion than yours as it was stated.

 

[justpeachy]

Very good



I would not agree that most stroke patients want to live. Most stroke patients might not have ever had a prior thought about their developing predicament at its onset when it occurs.

If you treat and get to know one or many of them (who have strokes), and then you continue to have a relationship with them over time, they may reveal a different opinion than yours as it was stated.

That's a very good point. I have seen many many stroke victims that have become suicidal since having a stroke and state blatantly they would rather have died.

 

[Jean Améry]

Like others have mentioned it's their legal duty so it's hardly their fault. ER doctors don't get to choose who they treat and it would be unreasonable to expect them to incur heavy personal losses just to do the right thing. Plus it wouldn't change the system if they did (unless it was a collective decision which seems extremly unlikely) so the gesture would be quite futile anyway.

The inhumanity is situated in the legal system: if a person has made it unequivocally clear he/she wants to die and they attempt this wish should be honoured and they should be left to die. The only thing medical professionals should be allowed to do is to give pain medication and make sure the person is rendered unconscious so they don't have to suffer.

I have a bigger ethical gripe with psychiatrists and the like who work in the setting of involuntary commitment. Nobody's forced to work in closed wards where the suicidal are held against their will so they do have a choice and yet they choose to participate in gross human rights violations and what would be criminal offences if the law didn't allow it: kidnapping, involuntary incarceration, invasion of privacy, assault and battery, poisoning...