MAKE SOCIETY LISTEN TO US !

[ksp]

come up with best reasons to legalize voluntary euthanasia (in all countries)

i consider this site to be leading voice towards society
a group of extremely intelligent and eloquent people
we are the best at what we do, and no one else will help us
come up with the best reasons to convince society to support us

instead of feeling frustrated and disappointed, i'd suggest to do something about it
convince society to respect our rights, and our suffering

use the visibility of this forum to come up with the best reasons why normal people should listen to us
our reasoning should be so strong that even (reasonable) pro-lifers should respect - in the world!
our best weapon is our intelligence - make this your last battle, and put all your effort into it

75%+ should be approved by society
50%+ should be approved by pro-lifers

• terminal illnesses - physical - 100% approved by society
• non-terminal, incurable disease - 100% approved by society (suggested by AliceTheGoon)
• terminal illnesses - mental: 50% approved by society (each case different); needs improvements
• danger to others - mass shooting, suicidal pilots, etc
• - dangerous inmates : 100% approved by society
• - pedophilia
• self determination: i have to right to exist = i have the right to die: 75% approved
• reasons that are acceptable for animal euthanasia?
• who does my life belong to: me or my government? (suggested by Forever Sleep)
• legal voluntary euthanasia will reduce suicide rates (suggested by FuneralCry)
• war
• age
• determination to end your life (you are 18+)

(i don't think society is quite ready to accept voluntary euthanasia solely based on philosophical views)

---

what other reasons would be acceptable?

i'm brainstorming here, and i need your help; this is what i have so far (first draft)
i realize i can't fight society on my own, so we need a lot more reasons

please be considerate
think of it as you are talking about it to your parents / relatives, and friends
what would persuade them? (make them think about their own future, and their own death)

also, consider the fact that more and more countries are starting to accept euthanasia

be as concise and articulate as possible (short reasons / one liners)

what are the best reasons to legalize euthanasia?

 

[Smart No More]

Something that often comes up is that people work and contribute to society and if everyone was dying off their potential value as a resource goes with them but I think a big flaw in that argument is that its overlooked that the resources they would consume are no longer a factor too. In a time where the cost of living is so high and a regular 9-5 job doesn't even cover many peoples needs then surely their 'removal' puts them firmly in the positive as a resource hog. They no longer need to look for support from society to cover the defecit in their self sufficiency.

Also the initial argument indicates that society expects everyone to pay more into society than they take which is surely not realistic or even just. Speaking in the simplest of terms.

 

[ksp]

people work and contribute to society and if everyone was dying off their potential value as a resource goes with them but I think a big flaw in that argument is that its overlooked that the resources they would consume are no longer a factor too

excellent argument, thank you!

unable / unwilling to contribute to society

 

[Maudlin]

I like the way you're thinking, but activism is like walking a ridge line in a battle zone.

This place is already a big target, thanks to the "mainstream" press.

Do you think we really need to be on "front street" right now, or be quiet... and just let the currently considered legislation die? Picking the proper time and location of the battlefield is often the surest way of winning the battle.

Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth.

 

[ksp]

Do you think we really need to be on "front street" right now, or be quiet... and just let the currently considered legislation die?

we're not starting a revolution - it's already started
- in canada 82% of people support euthanasia

we could wait for society to come to its senses, but it will take time

we need all resources (our intellect) to move it along
any well thought argument will be one more step towards an easier life, for all of us

 

[AliceTheGoon]

Non-terminal degenerative syndromes and diseases.

 

[ksp]

Non-terminal degenerative syndromes and diseases.

another fantastic reason, thank you! (i'd give you 100 more thumb-ups if i could)
this is one of best reasons that society will agree on, next to terminal illness (and i completely forgot it !!!)

non-terminal, incurable disease - 100% approved by society

 

[makethepainstop]

By the time those pro-life idiots come around, say 50 years or so, we would all be dead of old age.

 

[Maudlin]

we're not starting a revolution - it's already started
we could wait for the society to come to its senses, but it will take time

we need all resources (our intellect) to move it along
any well thought argument will be one more step towards an easier life, for all of us

Society is falling apart. We're about to see serious food shortages across the west, millions are already seeing it.

Brazil, China... lord knows at least a dozen countries have folks filling the streets. "It is the winter of discontent." lol

The "Great Reset" is well underway.

Many are terrified of another world war, and all that entails.

Labs keep growing reportedly more deadly variants of covid, on both sides of the Atlantic now.

I really don't think now is the time to make ourselves into a bigger target. In my opinion, now is the time to prepare your arguments, and plan your action. Keep it flexible.

When the rest of the hell the world is facing reaches its' conclusion, and there is either an authoritarian hold on the populace or (better yet) ecstatic exhuberance for the triumph of liberty... that's when we act.

Either way, it's at least two to three years away from now- likely more. Soon, people everywhere are going to be too worried about their next meal to want to think about any higher concepts. Such things will be little but another annoyance, in a brutally annoying life.

The only way I see this timing changing (perhaps)... is if the deaths of the vaccinated tick up more dramatically than they already have, or if said folks face the debilitating effects so many have already in such numbers that the mainstream media, social and otherwise, can no longer ignore it. Many who took that shot are miserable or dead, now. The miserable are already clamoring for euthanasia.

If the timing isn't right you'll see the legislation already submitted grow into a behemoth before it's passed, and then pass it will.

I'm telling you that's what I see.

Now is not the time to be a bigger target.

 

[ksp]

By the time those pro-life idiots come around, say 50 years or so, we would all be dead of old age.

lol :) forget them; remember: in canada 82% of population support voluntary euthanasia!

 

[makethepainstop]

lol :) forgot them; remember: in canada 82% of population support voluntary euthanasia!

Now if we can get that in America! But you do know they would never let depressed people end their suffering.

 

[ksp]

Now is not the time to be a bigger target.

i agree with all your points, but:
- WHEN should we become a bigger target? (we're constantly under scrutiny)

also, think of this as a 'dry run': we're just preparing all our best arguments

 

[Euthanza]

There are always two side of a coin, that includes suicide, there are bad ones (suicide bomber, murder suicide etc) and the good ones. Euthanasia is here being meant to make sure everyone has the option to end life with the good ones.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I've always felt like the crux of the issue is- 'to whom does a life belong?' Suicide itself is still illegal in some countries. It was only made legal in the UK by an act passed in 1961. While I don't know the punishment (presuming you were caught and survived obviously), the concept is interesting. Exactly WHO are you offending against when you attempt to hurt yourself? The same goes for being sectioned if you are caught- Doesn't the implication of prosecuting/ forcibly 'imprisoning' someone for this imply that their body doesn't belong to them- it is 'protected' or perhaps 'owned' by the state? I'd imagine most people would baulk at the thought of being 'owned.' We like to believe we have free will. Most especially if we are suffering with no hope of relief and we know that the drugs are available to stop it.

I suppose one of my strongest feelings is that we like to believe we are a superior, compassionate and 'humane' race. We euthanize animals to end their suffering but we don't extend this to our own kind for the most part. Worse still- WE make the decision for that animal to die because we can't bear to see it suffer. Yet- in our case- we are able to communicate our wish for it.

The stance in religion seems similar to suicide still being illegal- to my understanding, suicide is often seen as sinful because our lives belong to God. I expect back in the day- and even now- the Church and the Crown work together to keep the order (which includes keeping the workforce alive). I do wonder- as the world does seem to becoming more secular whether these ideas will be challenged more and more. If it is a case that the prohibition is religion based- is it fair to impose those ideas on people who don't hold those beliefs?

 

[ksp]

There are always two side of a coin, that includes suicide, there are bad ones (suicide bomber, murder suicide etc) and the good ones. Euthanasia is here being meant to make sure everyone has the option to end life with the good ones.

agreed; but for now i'm trying to focus on 'undeniable' reasons: reasons that all countries should agree on

suicide and mental illness is controversial - to be debated later on
(Severe and Persistent Mental Illness - is not debatable, as in canada)

we need to show the most compelling reasons that all countries should accept medical assisted in dying (undeniable, for humans), something that everyone will be forced to concede to, no excuse: 'i have 6 months to live, because of cancer: please allow me to die with dignity'

---

'to whom does a life belong?'

you have a brilliant mind! (like most people in this forum)
you just opened a lot of very important issues that would need careful consideration
we don't really have the space (this thread) to address all of them, but i consider religion to become less and less relevant, moving on

 

[Maudlin]

WHEN should we become a bigger target? (we're constantly under scrutiny)

Like I said, "When the rest of the hell the world is facing reaches its' conclusion, and there is either an authoritarian hold on the populace or (better yet) ecstatic exhuberance for the triumph of liberty... that's when we act."

or,

"if the deaths of the vaccinated tick up more dramatically than they already have, or if said folks face the debilitating effects so many have already, in such numbers that the mainstream media (social and otherwise) can no longer ignore it."

That's why the planning has to stay flexible, and the arguments rock-solid, emotion provoking, and unassailable.
Work on drawing up the actual legislation we'd like to see passed would be a good step in this direction... that way it can be ready for lobbying immediately when we notice "the wind" is in our favor.

The current scrutiny we're under right now is bad, and mostly because of minors committing suicide. Most of them are experiencing their first real hardship in life, and understandably don't know how to deal with it. Anything that can be done to short circuit this reality can only be a good thing. I have neither the idea, nor the power and control necessary to stop this effect of the website. I would stop minors from dying by their own hand if I could. Such things don't sit well with me.

These three things:
The legislation drawn up and on hand,
Emotional, "bulletproof" arguments prepared and ready,
Some way of securing the health and safety of minors

are key, right now.

 

[ksp]

are key, right now.

i respect your values, and your concerns are perfectly reasonable, but i still think society will not move fast enough
society will need to focus on MENTAL HEALTH (root of the problem), not suicide

also, i think you are thinking specifically of US, i'm thinking of all countries:
undeniable reasons for accepting voluntary euthanasia, right now

 

[FuneralCry]

The option of euthanasia should be legalised everywhere as after all we were forced into this life without choice and we shouldn't have to struggle so much in trying to find ways to leave it behind. Having legalised euthanasia would mean that people wouldn't have to resort to risky methods that could potentially fail, and other people wouldn't have to deal with the shock of finding a dead body from someone who has ctb.
If euthanasia was legalised then people would be able to tell others in advance about their decision so that others can say goodbye and will have time to come to terms with the person's choice to leave as they can have discussions about it. Having the option of euthanasia would make it easier for the suicidal person and for those left behind.

We are all going to die eventually so we deserve to be able to take control of when we exit and I believe that it would make life more bearable for many people if they had that option. There is no value in unnecessary suffering and prolonging people's misery until they die from old age. Even the people who are pro life now could end up in a horrific situation and then they would want a peaceful exit, would they really want to die a slow death from disease.

 

[ksp]

If euthanasia was legalised then…

thank you!

i translate your suggestion to: 'legal euthanasia will reduce suicide rates'

 

[Maudlin]

i respect your values, and your concerns are perfectly reasonable, but i still think society will not move fast enough
society will need to focus on MENTAL HEALTH (root of the problem), not suicide

also, i think you are thinking specifically of US, i'm thinking of all countries:
undeniable reasons for accepting voluntary euthanasia, right now

I am thinking of the US. It seems euthanasia has already gained its' own momentum elsewhere, and adding the US to that list properly would go far toward reaching your global goal.

Not proceeding properly in the US will wreck your goals immeasurably, perhaps utterly.

Everything is globally connected now in ways that few understand. The world that will come out of the current crisis we're in will be even more interconnected, regardless of who wins. "Global governance" is a forgone conclusion, like it or not.

"Haste makes waste" is an old truism that applies, here. What makes you think the diverse political structures around the world are mature enough to handle ethical euthanasia? There are many examples that keep leaking from places like China and the DPRK that prove the political expediency of eliminating undesirables is a simple fact that will never go away. Even a recent example from Canada (surprisingly enough), if what I read was true.

Not long ago the vaccinated were calling for the blood of the unvaccinated all over social media... Now, you get idiots offering an olive branch in "The Atlantic". These things need to be addressed to the satisfaction of the masses, not by application of funds to the political classes, as these things so often are. Haste, in this climate, will ruin you.

Socially, the US is still the hegemon, though that won't last. Again, timing is everything... and properly proceeding in the US is instrumental in any broader goal.

A young bull and an old bull stood on a hill, overlooking a herd of heifers. The young bull said "let's run down there and fuck one of those heifers!".
The old bull said "No. We'll walk down, and fuck them all."

 

[Maudlin]

The option of euthanasia should be legalised everywhere as after all we were forced into this life without choice and we shouldn't have to struggle so much in trying to find ways to leave it behind. Having legalised euthanasia would mean that people wouldn't have to resort to risky methods that could potentially fail, and other people wouldn't have to deal with the shock of finding a dead body from someone who has ctb.
If euthanasia was legalised then people would be able to tell others in advance about their decision so that others can say goodbye and will have time to come to terms with the person's choice to leave as they can have discussions about it. Having the option of euthanasia would make it easier for the suicidal person and for those left behind.

We are all going to die eventually so we deserve to be able to take control of when we exit and I believe that it would make life more bearable for many people if they had that option. There is no value in unnecessary suffering and prolonging people's misery until they die from old age. Even the people who are pro life now could end up in a horrific situation and then they would want a peaceful exit, would they really want to die a slow death from disease.

These are all excellent arguments.

 

[👁️👃👁️]

thank you!

i translate your suggestion to: 'legal euthanasia will reduce suicide rates'

Well I believe it actually will reduce the rates because people would know that they have an option to go anytime that they want and I feel like that in itself would keep a lot of people around even longer.

 

[ksp]

A young bull and an old bull

you made me laugh :) and agree with you. great and smart arguments!

so you would not try to convince the government, or your loved ones, to accept voluntary euthanasia, just yet

 

[Smart No More]

I like the way you're thinking, but activism is like walking a ridge line in a battle zone.

This place is already a big target, thanks to the "mainstream" press.

Do you think we really need to be on "front street" right now, or be quiet... and just let the currently considered legislation die? Picking the proper time and location of the battlefield is often the surest way of winning the battle.

Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth.

I agree with this in as much as this forum shouldn't be the spearhead or figurehead of activism on this front. It's something we've discussed here before and I repeat my sentiment from back then which is that the history of this forum will always exist and will do no good for the cause in the long term. This said, I see no issue with discussing the matter here as where else would we do so? I just think any actual activism should be it's own entity, hosted and living externally/seperate to the forum. Doesn't mean it can't be chewed over here though.

I feel like OP made good points in a concise manner. None of the silly drama and nonsense that goes on here on the forum made its way into it and for that reason I am inclined to take OP more seriously than other posts I've seen of this nature. They're often very ill advised and mixed up in messy/confused intentions but I feel respectful of OP in their own right in this instance. Is it perfect? No. But that's the whole point of encouraging group input right?

This place will always be doused in controversy because onlookers pick and choose what they like to reflect and report. The nature of the place sees extreme ends of various spectrums so there's so much cannon fodder and sensational content to pull out and weaponise (sp?) to fit their relative intent. It's just never going to win this fight. It has to just exist in spite of that and in doing so serves it's own significant purpose.

 

[Maudlin]

you made me laugh :) and agree with you. great and smart arguments!

so you would not try to convince the government, or your loved ones, to accept voluntary euthanasia, just yet

Government? Not yet, no. The public? Not yet, no. My loved ones are already on board, though few know I contemplate it, for me.

 

[Smart No More]

Oh, and I agree with the sentiment that openly accepted euthanasia would allow us to speak about it freely and most importantly soften the blow and say our respective goodbyes to our loved ones. Nobody wants to lose a loved one or be a loved one lost. I think this is possibly the most valuable thing we can have when our lives reach their logical conclusion. The closure would be so healthy for all involved and it can be seen in all recorded accounts of legal euthanasia we've seen. Can't over state the significance of this point!

 

[Maudlin]

I agree with this in as much as this forum shouldn't be the spearhead or figurehead of activism on this front. It's something we've discussed here before and I repeat my sentiment from back then which is that the history of this forum will always exist and will do no good for the cause in the long term. This said, I see no issue with discussing the matter here as where else would we do so? I just think any actual activism should be it's own entity, hosted and living externally/seperate to the forum. Doesn't mean it can't be chewed over here though.

I feel like OP made good points in a concise manner. None of the silly drama and nonsense that goes on here on the forum made its way into it and for that reason I am inclined to take OP more seriously than other posts I've seen of this nature. They're often very ill advised and mixed up in
messy/confused intentions but I feel respectful of OP in their own right. Is it perfect? No. But that's the whole point of encouraging group input.

This place will always be doused in controversy because onlookers pick and choose what they like to reflect on. The nature of the place sees extreme ends of various spectrums so there's so much cannon fodder and sensational content to pull out and weaponise (sp?) to fit their relative intent. It's just never going to win this fight. It has to just exist regardless and in doing so serves it's own significant purpose.

You should seriously consider changing your username to "Smart No Less", or better yet just "Smart".

 

[ksp]

…It has to just exist regardless and in doing so serves it's own significant purpose.

THANK YOU !

---

i forgot to include 'unable / unwilling to contribute to society' by Smart No More
and now i can't update the initial OP…

 

[ksp]

Taking a man's life is a crime against his will. Forcing someone who wants to end their life to live is also a crime

(from another thread: 'If suicide weren't a taboo, things would be a lot easier')

Forcing someone who wants to die, live against their will, should be made a crime, by Sunset Limited

 

[Smart No More]

I was thinking the other day about how psych meds get pushed on people and why. I know there's clinical reasons but a lot of the time it's used to calm people who appear externally frantic but not for their benefit as much as the benefit of the people who have to deal with them. When a person looks externally calm and dosile it's easier for their carers or custodians and that's considerd success but inside many of these people are suffering intensely and will try not to take the meds because ultimately they're paying the price of their carers comfort. It's like a tussle over who suffers less and many people are more than happy to inflict that on someone for their own benfit. Often quite worryingly in total ignorance of the atrocity they're commiting. Usually in belief they're doing right. I feel a similar situation exists with many peoples view on death. 'You will suffer so I don't have to and you will be greatful for it, because I love you'. Its a very confused situation but it seems like pointing out the obvious, shining a light on it is met with a different response than logic and decency calls for. I think maybe because it requires (some) people to look at themselves honestly and admit faults they're not ready to. I see a lot of that in the fixers that have already lost people to suicide because they're powerless to right their wrongs posthumously. Their loved ones are already dead and they may not have handled it ideally at the time. It must be a horrible feeling to grapple with and it might be so horrendous that it drives them to choose to believe something that's more bearable. That's not not okay but you can see why it happens. But again (in their particular activism) they're attempting to make others suffer so they don't have to. Propping up their misconceptions to reaffirm their delusion so they can livw with theirsleves.

How do you address something like that?

You can't reason with a person that doesn't want to see reason. Everyone's goal has to be to reach the truth otherwise we'll never find common ground.