It's a sad reflection on society that this site is "illegal." It's just not fair.

[pharmacoepia]

(Since this is related to suicide, I'm putting this here in Suicide Discussion even though it is very meta.)

So many activists constantly criticize the site, yet it works as one of the few safe havens made by suicidal people, for suicidal people. I thus find it extremely hypocritical to attempt to ban the site and "arrest" the owners and moderators. It's just not fair.

The FBI has already released warnings about SN, the Ontario coroner said that over 39 deaths have been related to SN, and the runner of several SN distributors has been arrested. Many are getting surprise welfare checks since the database of the SN distributor has been leaked. Hell, even CP24 (the local Canadian news outlet) has launched their own investigation, and I fully expect them to make an NYT-like report soon enough. I'm glad I have dual Aus-Can citizenship, otherwise I'd be living in the hellhole known as "poor-waiting-time-Canada" where you need to wait 6 months for one psychiatric appointment.

Given my background in STEM and the countless amount of advice I have given out both in this forum and in the private DM's, I have no doubt that law enforcement are at least looking at me, and the countless frequent posters. While the site might be protected by Section 230, that doesn't mean users are protected. It only means the owners get away.

It's just not fair. Why are they cracking down so much on our autonomy? Why is "Stop Sanctioned Suicide" a thing? I've always had the philosophy that if a person cannot obtain help, he/she must help themselves. So many people are without access to basic psychiatric healthcare, and those who do have access are lucky to have a young freshly trained psychiatrist who doesn't have the old stereotypes back when we literally had to literally suck the CSF out of peoples skulls just to make a simple CT scan. Pepperidge Farm remembers! Some psychiatrists are still mentally stuck in that era of medicine, and still believe that information from that era is still reliable. It sucks so much. Lobotomies don't work anymore, Grandma.

Let people decide for themselves. It makes me so, so mad that prosecution is even a possibility. Let the people decide their liberty. We don't need the government to control our emotions, our thoughts. If a man is stuck in his mind, rotting until he is nothing 'till a emotionless husk, we should put 'em down. It's only fair.

 

[OceanBlue]

This is great, please send this to Can politicians, even if anonymously.

 

[brokeandbroken]

To be honest I find it unlikely the government is going to care. They may shut it down but are so unbelievably unlikely to actually file charges or anything. Like I feel most people here if they had someone willing to put that effort in probably wouldn't want to CTB. It's just easier to let it go. People are lazy frankly. Also it's just too damn hard to police. If it's not here then it's whatsapp or telegram. Frankly it may be better for both trends and psychological purposes for it be here where it isn't encrypted. So while I'm sure it is theoretically possible highly unlikely. Also unlikely they are paying significant attention to you.

 

[charlotte_]

I feel the same way. The government and pro lifers only look for ways to stop us from killing ourselves, but do they actually care about the suffering we endured that lead us here? Almost never. Yet they still thought that they are a knight in armor, a hero to those who struggle, when all they do is making our lives even more so unbearable. People look for suicide as a way to end the struggle of their lives. When taking away suicide, the struggle remains. Just that we have no way out and will live a boring, useless and futile life. They only start acting like they care when someone take their life, but all the other symptoms beforehand, no one bats an eye. Even till this day, barely anyone truly understand mental struggles. Sometimes, a thought crossed my mind that they are just stopping us from escaping life because they themselves cannot.

 

[pharmacoepia]

To be honest I find it unlikely the government is going to care. They may shut it down but are so unbelievably unlikely to actually file charges or anything. Like I feel most people here if they had someone willing to put that effort in probably wouldn't want to CTB. It's just easier to let it go. People are lazy frankly. Also it's just too damn hard to police. If it's not here then it's whatsapp or telegram. Frankly it may be better for both trends and psychological purposes for it be here where it isn't encrypted. So while I'm sure it is theoretically possible highly unlikely. Also unlikely they are paying significant attention to you.

I'm sorry if my post came across as FUD or "the end is neigh." I'm just a little bit shook after the SN bust, because not only is the guy facing 14 years in prison max, they have also essentially confirmed that they are watching the site.

Constant reminders of "we cannot name this specific site that is advertising SN for a certain purpose, but we are looking into it." is obviously referring to us, it's ignorant to think otherwise.

 

[FuneralCry]

It's like so many people forget that we are all just destined to die anyway, eventually no matter what everything we know will all be forgotten about in death, it's just the reality that death erases everything for us so therefore it seems so irrational to insist that existence must be prolonged at all costs, it's inhumane to want to force people to suffer so unnecessarily.
But this site has been in the media for years and yet it's still here. If it was really "illegal" it would had been taken down years ago.

 

[Hollowman]

None of psychiatry's information is reliable.

Why Psychiatry Sees Itself as a Dying Industry: A Resource on its Failures and Critics

A former American Psychiatric Association (APA) president once told Congress that a widespread “movement” exists to eradicate psychiatry. He had hired a Public Relations (PR) firm to deflect the movement’s criticism of it shortly after the publication of the APA’s diagnostic manual (DSM5)...

www.cchrint.org

 

[pharmacoepia]

None of psychiatry's information is reliable.

Why Psychiatry Sees Itself as a Dying Industry: A Resource on its Failures and Critics

A former American Psychiatric Association (APA) president once told Congress that a widespread “movement” exists to eradicate psychiatry. He had hired a Public Relations (PR) firm to deflect the movement’s criticism of it shortly after the publication of the APA’s diagnostic manual (DSM5)...

www.cchrint.org

A good psychiatrist will only diagnose somebody if they are legitimately suffering.

While I acknowledge that psychiatrists can be assholes, I also know a lot of psychiatrists who are receptive to patients and immediately taper their patients off of medications when they start to feel side-effects that are too debilitating.

The site appears to be criticizing the side-effects of drugs which can be permanent, which while rare, I DO agree that we need to be more cautious when giving people meds.

Your claim that psychiatry "information is never reliable" is not true though. Many studies have proven various efficacy of drugs. While SSRI's are the most controversial, most statistical studies suggest that they have efficacy on those with very severe depression, but those with mild or moderate depression probably won't benefit from them. If a patient also takes SSRI's for a long time and doesn't improve, then it is unlikely that they will imrpove if you keep on taking them (a.k.a, don't take the same shit and expect it to work when it hasn't worked for 7 months.)

I agree with the cautious stance of this organization, but their claims of over diagnosis are heavily controversial in the scientific community, and don't represent most peer-reviewed studies.

If you want to learn more how both pharma companies and organizations like this manipulate their statistics, I heavily suggest reading "Statistics Done Wrong" It's a must read for medical and other scientists, and shows how you can't really trust statistics unless you have independently verified them.

 

[SilentSadness]

It's important to note that the government doesn't care about anyone on this website, they are only interested in keeping their positions. The minority battling to get this site taken down are ridiculous honestly but most people have a very limited amount of care. Because to them, this site is just "evil" and so dismissed very quickly. As suicide is illegal in all but name, suicide methods keep getting restricted, which is only escalated by the activism done against this site. It's all just selfishness and a sickening outlook on humanity and life itself.

 

[Hollowman]

A good psychiatrist will only diagnose somebody if they are legitimately suffering.

While I acknowledge that psychiatrists can be assholes, I also know a lot of psychiatrists who are receptive to patients and immediately taper their patients off of medications when they start to feel side-effects that are too debilitating.

The site appears to be criticizing the side-effects of drugs which can be permanent, which while rare, I DO agree that we need to be more cautious when giving people meds.

Your claim that psychiatry "information is never reliable" is not true though. Many studies have proven various efficacy of drugs. While SSRI's are the most controversial, most statistical studies suggest that they have efficacy on those with very severe depression, but those with mild or moderate depression probably won't benefit from them. If a patient also takes SSRI's for a long time and doesn't improve, then it is unlikely that they will imrpove if you keep on taking them (a.k.a, don't take the same shit and expect it to work when it hasn't worked for 7 months.)

I agree with the cautious stance of this organization, but their claims of over diagnosis are heavily controversial in the scientific community, and don't represent most peer-reviewed studies.

If you want to learn more how both pharma companies and organizations like this manipulate their statistics, I heavily suggest reading "Statistics Done Wrong" It's a must read for medical and other scientists, and shows how you can't really trust statistics unless you have independently verified them.

Believe whatever you want but "good psychiatrists" don't exist and the studies can't be trusted.

 

[Hotsackage]

its not all that bad in canada. maid is expanding their acceptability pretty leniently

 

[SexyIncél]

I agree with the cautious stance of this organization, but their claims of over diagnosis are heavily controversial in the scientific community, and don't represent most peer-reviewed studies.

If you want to learn more how both pharma companies and organizations like this manipulate their statistics, I heavily suggest reading "Statistics Done Wrong" It's a must read for medical and other scientists, and shows how you can't really trust statistics unless you have independently verified them.

This discussion is hard because we're basically discussing philosophy of science -- without mentioning some defining notions of science. The article's website (cchrint.org) doesn't either

 

[squirley]

(Since this is related to suicide, I'm putting this here in Suicide Discussion even though it is very meta.)

So many activists constantly criticize the site, yet it works as one of the few safe havens made by suicidal people, for suicidal people.

I agree.

I thus find it extremely hypocritical to attempt to ban the site and "arrest" the owners and moderators. It's just not fair.

I also agree banning the site would be unfair.
They are only selecting certain areas / topics to attack here.
I havnt seen anything about arresting owners or mods but that's ridiculous. I'm sure there are many legal loop holes for that ?

The FBI has already released warnings about SN, the Ontario coroner said that over 39 deaths have been related to SN,

Do you have the article for this I'm trying to find it . ( ontario coroner )

and the runner of several SN distributors has been arrested.

yes it was 2 or 3 sources. 1 guy . Correct? He's fighting it now saying he didn't know what it was being used for.

Many are getting surprise welfare checks since the database of the SN distributor has been leaked.

yes unfortunately.
But also unfortunate is that people are talking to the police. And talking to CP24
After / during their welfare checks.

Hell, even CP24 (the local Canadian news outlet) has launched their own investigation, and I fully expect them to make an NYT-like report soon enough.

Already happening. Unfortunately. The second dude got arrested.

I'm glad I have dual Aus-Can citizenship, otherwise I'd be living in the
hellhole known as "poor-waiting-time-Canada" where you need to wait 6 months for one psychiatric appointment.

You can literally go to CAMH at any time.
At no cost.
If you choose.
6 months is false.

Given my background in STEM and the countless amount of advice I have given out both in this forum and in the private DM's, I have no doubt that law enforcement are at least looking at me, and the countless frequent posters. While the site might be protected by Section 230, that doesn't mean users are protected. It only means the owners get away.

Guess it depends on the advice.
VPN ?
This is unfortunate. Hopefully not.

It's just not fair. Why are they cracking down so much on our autonomy? Why is "Stop Sanctioned Suicide" a thing?

There will always people opposed to any type of topic / issue they don't agree with.
It's human nature.

I've always had the philosophy that if a person cannot obtain help, he/she must help themselves. So many people are without access to basic psychiatric healthcare,

I'm sure there any many people that don't have access or can't afford it. Which is inexcusable. Depending on where you live.
This is no longer the case in Canada.
Maybe 10-15 years ago.

But that philosophy does make sense.
Even though there is help available. I'm choosing not to receive or want it any more.
( or for others to choose a way out because services are not available)

and those who do have access are lucky to have a young freshly trained psychiatrist who doesn't have the old stereotypes back when we literally had to literally suck the CSF out of peoples skulls just to make a simple CT scan. Pepperidge Farm remembers! Some psychiatrists are still mentally stuck in that era of medicine, and still believe that information from that era is still reliable. It sucks so much. Lobotomies don't work anymore, Grandma.

Before my time. And glad I've never met anyform of health professional like that. Lul.
Just ones that push massive amounts of meds for the kick back.

Let people decide for themselves.

I agree. And not only at 70...80 years old

It makes me so, so mad that prosecution is even a possibility. Let the people decide their liberty. We don't need the government to control our emotions, our thoughts. If a man is stuck in his mind, rotting until he is nothing 'till a emotionless husk, we should put 'em down. It's only fair.

Well said.

Amidst Kenneth Law, sodium nitrite investigations, wellness checks are on the rise: sources

Amidst a global reckoning around the unregulated sale of sodium nitrite online for the purpose of suicide, Peel Region is reporting a 10 per cent increase in calls “involving either attempted suicide or suicide” in 2023 compared to the same period in 2022.

www.cp24.com

 

[WaffleWoman]

With bill c-11 recently being passed the government of canada has full control over what we are allowed to view. c-11 is a stupid censorship bill that could affect the ability to view this site. Im starting to hate living in Canada

 

[squirley]

With bill c-11 recently being passed the government of canada has full control over what we are allowed to view. c-11 is a stupid censorship bill that could affect the ability to view this site. Im starting to hate living in Canada

I thought this was mostly to do with YouTube content . I misunderstood that it was with web sites as well.
(I watched the ordinary gamer video)
Thanks for mentioning this.
you can still just use a VPN no ?

 

[fatraccoon]

Police giving so much attention to people who decide to stop existing when there are pedo rings right under their noses... they do not care about anyone.

 

[brokeandbroken]

I'm sorry if my post came across as FUD or "the end is neigh." I'm just a little bit shook after the SN bust, because not only is the guy facing 14 years in prison max, they have also essentially confirmed that they are watching the site.

Constant reminders of "we cannot name this specific site that is advertising SN for a certain purpose, but we are looking into it." is obviously referring to us, it's ignorant to think otherwise.

Ahh I'm not Canadian nor am I lawyer so can't speak to it. That said there's some irony to a country having euthanasia laws but freaking out when someone does the same thing.

Also I feel like most people on here could get away with not having the men's rea. But what do I know. Also it seemed like from what I read he marketed it to suicidal people and was doing the shipping. Versus someone just selling the product for food consumption or other reasons. It seems like unlikely to me governments will crack down on suicidal people in that way.

 

[ringo99]

Well yeah. Sites like SS undercut the ability of pharma companies to peddle hyper expensive drugs to turn you into mindless zombie for years without actually fixing the root problems while bankrupting you. These parasites are laughing all the way to the bank while ruining you financially. Politicians and religious nuts increase their popularity and wealth by fearmongering to people who don't understand us to try and shut down sites like SS as a "danger to society" when in reality they don't give a rat's ass and never will. Whether we ctb peacefully or screaming in agony means nothing to them. This applies to politicians throughout the political spectrum.

 

[pharmacoepia]

I agree.

I also agree banning the site would be unfair.
They are only selecting certain areas / topics to attack here.
I havnt seen anything about arresting owners or mods but that's ridiculous. I'm sure there are many legal loop holes for that ?

Do you have the article for this I'm trying to find it . ( ontario coroner )

yes it was 2 or 3 sources. 1 guy . Correct? He's fighting it now saying he didn't know what it was being used for.

yes unfortunately.
But also unfortunate is that people are talking to the police. And talking to CP24
After / during their welfare checks.

Already happening. Unfortunately. The second dude got arrested.

You can literally go to CAMH at any time.
At no cost.
If you choose.
6 months is false.

Guess it depends on the advice.
VPN ?
This is unfortunate. Hopefully not.

There will always people opposed to any type of topic / issue they don't agree with.
It's human nature.

I'm sure there any many people that don't have access or can't afford it. Which is inexcusable. Depending on where you live.
This is no longer the case in Canada.
Maybe 10-15 years ago.

But that philosophy does make sense.
Even though there is help available. I'm choosing not to receive or want it any more.
( or for others to choose a way out because services are not available)

Before my time. And glad I've never met anyform of health professional like that. Lul.
Just ones that push massive amounts of meds for the kick back.

I agree. And not only at 70...80 years old

Well said.

Amidst Kenneth Law, sodium nitrite investigations, wellness checks are on the rise: sources

Amidst a global reckoning around the unregulated sale of sodium nitrite online for the purpose of suicide, Peel Region is reporting a 10 per cent increase in calls “involving either attempted suicide or suicide” in 2023 compared to the same period in 2022.

www.cp24.com

I used to live in Ontario, where the waiting times are absurd. I'll look into CAMH though if I ever visit or come back to can.

Well yeah. Sites like SS undercut the ability of pharma companies to peddle hyper expensive drugs to turn you into mindless zombie for years without actually fixing the root problems while bankrupting you. These parasites are laughing all the way to the bank while ruining you financially. Politicians and religious nuts increase their popularity and wealth by fearmongering to people who don't understand us to try and shut down sites like SS as a "danger to society" when in reality they don't give a rat's ass and never will. Whether we ctb peacefully or screaming in agony means nothing to them. This applies to politicians throughout the political spectrum.

I just want a reality where sasu wasn't constantly slandered. Our reputation has been dug in the ground by tantacruel and the NYT report. It just makes me sad, especially since making a pro-sasu stance on the public internet will get you dragged around by the balls of big social media companies. The only good news is that tantacruel's video was only advertised by the algorithm to his subs and people who like documentaries. He's censored most of the pro-sasu comments, so I hope a Streisand effect occurs.

Believe whatever you want but "good psychiatrists" don't exist and the studies can't be trusted.

I know that I can't convince you otherwise, it's been proven that people get angrier the more you try to deflect their opinions. I generally like to aim the argument at the audience before they fall into the same logical brain-fart you did.

I don't blame you honestly. I only know nice psychiatrists because I've worked in a place with a lot of them. You can probably guess what profession I worked in based on my username alone, haha. But I won't argue further since both of us are probably tired.