‘It’ll traumatise X, X and X’ is an overrated way to discourage someone from a method

[burninghill]

This might be a selfish take but… I think it's incredibly ironic the times in which this is brought up.
If you mention dying to a train suicide, it's bound to appear at least once in the comments. Something about traumatising the driver and or the passengers.

But why not mention this so often when people mention falling from heights? You could land in a busy street or ontop of somebody. What about that cashier who sold you the rope to hang yourself? Or the pharmacist who sold you the drugs? I suppose it works slightly differently because not only can the conductor interpret themselves as directly responsible, but they also will see you die. Regardless, I don't think that people should be shamed for using trains to die.

Any method is bound to traumatise somebody, whether that's your family, paramedics (which, despite being paid, are still affected by their jobs!), literally any bystanders. The people around you don't even have to see your dead body (or your death) to become traumatised by your suicide.

Is there a threshold for what's considered too traumatising to be an ethical method?

Finally, I think it's a bit inconsiderate. When I've been in the deepest depths of my suicidality, not once did I think of who would be affected by it. I didn't care, and if I was going to think of anybody then the last person it would be would be the conductor of a train or a pedestrian. Hell I'd think of my dog first.
Asking a suicidal person to consider the feelings of those around them more than their own is unfair to me. Let them die the death they choose and let them not rule out methods because of the way it impacts others.

TL;DR: not only do I think this is a bit of a silly and inconsiderate way to discourage someone from a specific method of suicide, it's also disproportionately mentioned in regards to train suicides compared to other methods that could have arguably equal impact

 

[never mind me]

I generally agree, but I think there are limits. For example I would consider it unethical, if you choose a method that actually physically harms someone or puts them in danger like provoking a car crash.
Personally I think I would also feel bad about doing it in someone else's home or even in my own home, if I happen to live with someone I care about. But I wouldn't judge anyone else for doing it somewhere where people close to them find them, because it may very well be the only feasible way for ctb somebody has.

 

[SergantWallbridge]

If the morality of suicide is conditional exclusively/primarily on the level of trauma it inflicts upon others I am pretty sure one can min/max that shit.

It is generally considered more traumatic to see a cold body of someone young, aestetically pleasing and of social/racial group one empathises with. Some obvious choices one can make with regards to some features of their appearance/location of the suicide naturally follow from that...

 

[rembleeds]

I understand both sides of the argument, but my thoughts lie closer to the middle.

If you have two good options, where one is likely to traumatize someone (excluding EMS) and the other is unlikely to traumatize someone, and both options have equal likelihood of death, choosing the one that's less likely to cause trauma is more ethical.

If someone only has the option of a method that causes trauma to another person or the method is more likely to cause death, so be it.

It depends on what's avaliable imo.

 

[burninghill]

I understand both sides of the argument, but my thoughts lie closer to the middle.

If you have two good options, where one is likely to traumatize someone (excluding EMS) and the other is unlikely to traumatize someone, and both options have equal likelihood of death, choosing the one that's less likely to cause trauma is more ethical.

If someone only has the option of a method that causes trauma to another person or the method is more likely to cause death, so be it.

It depends on what's avaliable imo.

Genuine question, please don't think I'm trying to antagonise you in any way.

If I have two methods, one is 'likely to traumatise someone' and one isn't, both equal likelihood of death as you say, if my preference is the traumatic one, do you think I should settle for the less traumatic one for the sake of those around me, or do you think that I should put my comfort first?

I can't find a way to word this in a way that doesn't make it seem to default in favour of the latter option, forgive me.

I generally agree, but I think there are limits. For example I would consider it unethical, if you choose a method that actually physically harms someone or puts them in danger like provoking a car crash.
Personally I think I would also feel bad about doing it in someone else's home or even in my own home, if I happen to live with someone I care about. But I wouldn't judge anyone else for doing it somewhere where people close to them find them, because it may very well be the only feasible way for ctb somebody has.

I would also draw the limit at the potential of physically harming another person, 100%.

Killing yourself in someone else's home is just a crazy thought, if it has to be done it has to be done but I imagine there are few cases where this is the only option (thankfully).

 

[rembleeds]

Genuine question, please don't think I'm trying to antagonise you in any way.

If I have two methods, one is 'likely to traumatise someone' and one isn't, both equal likelihood of death as you say, if my preference is the traumatic one, do you think I should settle for the less traumatic one for the sake of those around me, or do you think that I should put my comfort first?

I can't find a way to word this in a way that doesn't make it seem to default in favour of the latter option, forgive me.

No antagonizing assumed :) I enjoy discussions like this, especially when they stay civil.

Let's say someone has 4 options and they're train decapitation, hanging, SN, and shotgun to the head. For the sake of this, shotgun would be done in a backyard thats not fenced off, so visible to anyone nearby their their own yard. Let's pretend like all are 99% likely to kill.

Train decapitation and shotgun would likely be more traumatizing for a person to stumble upon or directly witness happen, and most likely there would be at least one non-EMS person that would end up seeing it, one way or another.

Let's say the person would rank the methods from most to least favorable as: shotgun, SN, hanging, train. I think the person should choose shotgun in their attempt. Their last choice and experience in life trumps a moment in someone else's, as much as it may affect them.

But if they had no preference between SN and shotgun, they should choose SN to minimize the impact on others. This is what I meant when saying "good options", like good options to someone attempting. Definitely could have been clearer with my wording haha.

 

[endlesschatter]

In my opinion, we can't be as mean as the humans around us due to whom we have travelled this path that will eventually let us ctb or may be find peace in life, who knows.

Being mindful of what we do and how we do can make a lot of difference.

I met this guy from SaSu in person, while talking to him, my eyes got opened. He said he wanted to go to deep forest and hang himself. I asked him, he can do it here at home as well. He didn't want his family to see his disfigured body and remember that image of his for their rest of their lives. Ctbing in forest will help him die and he will be unapproachable and who knows eagle, vultures and other wild animals would feast on his dead body.

I really liked that perspective. I'm still not that great a person to go to a forest and hang myself. I may become the lunch of some leopard before I think of CTB. Lol.

So, I will personally rely on methods that aren't too difficult to look at.
Such as I'll not jump, as it'll be a bloody affair. I'll not lie on train track because if i survive, I'll be disabled for life, if i succeed, the driver will be traumatised.

Hurt people, hurt people and the cycle goes on.

Let's break the cycle and let ourselves depart with as less damage to other's as possible

 

[RazzleDazzle]

This might be a selfish take but… I think it's incredibly ironic the times in which this is brought up.
If you mention dying to a train suicide, it's bound to appear at least once in the comments. Something about traumatising the driver and or the passengers.

But why not mention this so often when people mention falling from heights? You could land in a busy street or ontop of somebody. What about that cashier who sold you the rope to hang yourself? Or the pharmacist who sold you the drugs? I suppose it works slightly differently because not only can the conductor interpret themselves as directly responsible, but they also will see you die. Regardless, I don't think that people should be shamed for using trains to die.

Any method is bound to traumatise somebody, whether that's your family, paramedics (which, despite being paid, are still affected by their jobs!), literally any bystanders. The people around you don't even have to see your dead body (or your death) to become traumatised by your suicide.

Is there a threshold for what's considered too traumatising to be an ethical method?

Finally, I think it's a bit inconsiderate. When I've been in the deepest depths of my suicidality, not once did I think of who would be affected by it. I didn't care, and if I was going to think of anybody then the last person it would be would be the conductor of a train or a pedestrian. Hell I'd think of my dog first.

The train conductor is a unique situation because they are watching the train that they are driving kill you, and are unable to stop it. They have the visceral experience of your death in a very direct and real way. They feel the impact. They see it. They deal with the police and see the aftermath.

It's ridiculous to compare that to a retail cashier selling rope. Obviously the cashier has no idea what you do with it, they have no experience of the impact of it. And they aren't involved in the actual experience of your death.

Bystanders, when someone falls from a height, are probably pretty traumatized, but they aren't in a position to stop you, even theoretically. They are also not responsible for the building, or for the force of gravity.

 

[webb&flow]

The train conductor is a unique situation because they are watching the train that they are driving kill you, and are unable to stop it. They have the visceral experience of your death in a very direct and real way. They feel the impact. They see it. They deal with the police and see the aftermath.

Similarly, in Jon Hilkevitch's Chicago Tribune article in 2004 on recent suicides on subways and other rail lines, he wrote, "Almost always, suicide victims peer into the locomotive cab in their final moments. They stare right into the eyes of the engineer, perhaps reaching for a last human connection." An engineer said of a recent suicide, slowly shaking his head, "He looked up at me right when I hit him." The engineer continued, "I've heard other engineers say [people committing suicide] look at you. I don't know why they do that. it. I sure wish they wouldn't, because the picture stays with you. You try to forget about it, but you don't ever, really. It ain't easy."

—Thomas Joiner, Why People Die By Suicide, Chapter 3, "The Desire for Death", pg. 133–134.

 

[burninghill]

The train conductor is a unique situation because they are watching the train that they are driving kill you, and are unable to stop it. They have the visceral experience of your death in a very direct and real way. They feel the impact. They see it. They deal with the police and see the aftermath.

It's ridiculous to compare that to a retail cashier selling rope. Obviously the cashier has no idea what you do with it, they have no experience of the impact of it. And they aren't involved in the actual experience of your death.

Bystanders, when someone falls from a height, are probably pretty traumatized, but they aren't in a position to stop you, even theoretically. They are also not responsible for the building, or for the force of gravity.

Hi, I did actually specify this difference in my post, I am aware that it is different.

Regardless, I don't think that the experience of the driver should be used to shame that people out of choosing a specific method and I don't think that people should have to steer clearly entirely from the method because of it if it is their preference to die this way.

You got a reply to your comment with a impactful quote that I unfortunately can't reply to or quote for some reason, I think it is important to know the impact of your method of choice, but as someone who has been suicidal since I was a young child and always had a train chosen as my desired method, I feel no sort of guilt or reconsideration reading the statement and I think that's okay too.
Never in my life have I reconsidered this method because of the driver, unfortunately.

 

[name2come]

Like, sure. If you're a person who enjoys the harm they bring into others lives, someone pointing out that harm isn't going to matter. But really, not much is going to. Some people in this life have absolutely committed themselves to being assholes and won't be talked out of it.

But don't act like you deserve to be shielded from judgment over your decisions and the harm you choose to commit. You want to be an asshole with your last act on Earth? No one is stopping you. Someone pointing our the harm you will be causing cannot actually stop you. But no one is obligated to make you feel good about it. The precise fact that so many people whine about how mean it is to confront them with the consequences of this act is a reminder that it actually does matter to a lot of people.

I have empathy for someone who truly feels such desperation and hopelessness that they'd lay down in front of a train, but that empathy is significantly tempered if they are merely planning to do that. Because now we are talking about premeditation. Now you're thinking about what you're doing. You don't get to pretend that only you matter. I have two bright lines on this and that is any method which endangers others and any method which drafts an unwilling person to be your killer. Trains cross both lines. I don't think this is some excessive moralism. These are acts of direct and unambiguous harm. And I can't stop you if you want to do this harm. Lets be honest about that dynamic. NO ONE here is going to be able to stop you if this is what you want to do. You are free to do as much harm and violence in your final moments as you see fit and you are even free to seek out people to make you feel better about that harm and violence. But no one is obligated to do so.

I suppose "I don't care about the trauma I am responsible for" is an overrated way to encourage other people to endorse that trauma.

 

[burninghill]

suppose "I don't care about the trauma I am responsible for" is an overrated way to encourage other people to endorse that trauma.

I like your response. Thank you. Though it does make it seem as if I'm encouraging people to endorse methods that directly harm others, or that people who pick these methods should be made to feel good or encouraged. This is not true. My post, at its core, was just supposed to be about how I find it uncomfortable to be shaming suicidal people for their method of choice (though I understand how it may have come across as flippant).

 

[Chili]

I agree, to an extent. I don't think you should purposely ctb in order to act revenge or hurt someone in particular. You can ctb, but there is no reason to ctb in front of your spouse, children, etc., I think. There are public places in which you know you are bound to be seen or heard by outsiders who have done you no harm, and that's unnecessary. Can't stop you from doing it but you should know the consequences of, say, jumping in front of the train. Chances are someone will see you. You ok with that?

 

[burninghill]

I agree, to an extent. I don't think you should purposely ctb in order to act revenge or hurt someone in particular. You can ctb, but there is no reason to ctb in front of your spouse, children, etc., I think. There are public places in which you know you are bound to be seen or heard by outsiders who have done you no harm, and that's unnecessary. Can't stop you from doing it but you should know the consequences of, say, jumping in front of the train. Chances are someone will see you. You ok with that?

I'd be okay with someone seeing me, yeah, but it really depends on the location. Being seen is really really avoidable with train suicides if that's one of your main issues.

I agree you should never deliberately choose a method like this to hurt someone.

 

[Chili]

I'd be okay with someone seeing me, yeah, but it really depends on the location. Being seen is really really avoidable with train suicides if that's one of your main issues.

I agree you should never deliberately choose a method like this to hurt someone.

I meant "you" generally, not you specifically I misworded it. I'm sorry. But if that's something you are aware of and know what it'll (potentially) do to others, then like I said. I can't stop you. Do what you gotta do, but I think it's ok for people to mention it in the comments.

I agree with @name2come , though. I think they had a very well thought out response.

 

[burninghill]

I meant "you" generally, not you specifically I misworded it. I'm sorry. But if that's something you are aware of and know what it'll (potentially) do to others, then like I said. I can't stop you. Do what you gotta do, but I think it's ok for people to mention it in the comments.

Don't worry at all! I also think it is okay, though it does make me feel a bit sorry if the person feels like their singular option is being taken away because of the shame of harming others in the process, but it's also normal and even sometimes good to feel ashamed and sorry for that.

It is somewhat helpful because if the impact on the driver is commented on and it upsets you then it's probably not your method. It is just the reality of dying to a train.

 

[DignifiedGrave]

Yeah I think its bullshit. Im standing at the knives edge rn and all i see is portals, ways of exiting this life bubble. I no longer care if im found or if my suicide will be upsetting. In fact, I think once you get to the phase of "suicide completion" where the mind is checked out and just the body is left, at that point, I don't think its possible to say or do anything that'll stop us.
Were here to be people who finish what we start.