Is wanting to die an irrational thought?

[Cockney_Rebel]

We on here, all speak about/discuss suicide.

That could be for research/information purposes, or merely morbid fascination.

However, what do you think about really wanting to die: Is it wrong? Is it an irrational thought, as the "professionals" claim?

 

[WornOutLife]

I think it could be considered to be "wrong" because most humans are programmed to live.
If we were cavemen, I bet we would do our best to survive instead of being depressed while a lion is trying to eat us!

However, modern society has turned many people into depressed and suicidal individuals.

I mean, why being forced to exist in this nonsense world? We should all have the right to die whenever we want if life is just...too much for us.

All in all, I think it's not irrational to want to die because, I mean, this world sucks. It's a hell! Just go to a children hospital and see how they're suffering and even dying! How could I possibly want to live in a place like this? Ridiculous!

 

[FuneralCry]

I think the opposite. I think when someone is suffering every day with no relief and no hope of getting better that wanting to die is rational. I think society disregards this with people not having an peaceful method to opt out of life if they suffer too much. They insist on long lives regardless of quality.
Life is meaningless anyway, our only purpose is death, so wanting to die can be seen as rational in that regard. Suicidal thoughts are often an result of being trapped in an situation we cannot get out of and it is our way of regaining control over a life we did not choose.

 

[GenesAndEnvironment]

Humanity and irrationality can't be separated. "Rational" thinking is simply irrationality/"monke" with more steps.

 

[noname223]

No. I think there are good reasons when suicide can be rational. It is up to the adult individual. I can imagine many scenarios that end for me in a rational suicide. Poverty, loneliness and my illness. In my worstcase scenario i find it irrational not wanting to ctb.

 

[Soulless Angel]

Suicide is only irrational because 80% of society say's it is, Nothing is irrational if it's what you believe, or want. To end's one's life is only irrational when someone say's it is because it's not in their beliefs,
Unless you have a reallllyyyyyy stupid reason for wanting to do so of course! But even then it's not up to us to say how someone reacts in any given situation

 

[adam]

There is both the will to live and the will to die. Both desires are rational.

 

[UseItOrLoseIt]

Rationality is a self-absorbed monkey wrench that makes itself believe it can fix everything.

 

[insanedoomer]

NOP !!!

 

[MyrSS]

In all reality no I don't think it's irrational. It's something I talked to my therapist about and exclaimed that we may be pre-programmed to be a little self-destructive under certain conditions.

The fact of the matter is this is not a uniquely-human problem. Other species of animals have experienced depression as well. It can be seen in places like zoos before the whole movement of ethical treatment of the animals.

They wouldn't get enough exercise would be spoonfed and would ultimately become depressed. Nowadays in some instances they feed the captive animals in a way that helps them keep their hunting instincts. Letting loose a live animal for it to hunt down and eat instead of force feeding.

This leads me to believe that people need to have an innate sense of purpose to want to live. And subsequently that if they don't have this sense of purpose they become depressed and suicidal.

So from my understanding, now that we have medicine to keep us alive longer than ever. An abundance of food available at least in most developed countries. And laws that keep conflict between other humans to a minimum. We have in sense deprived ourselves of purpose.

One reason that I believe this deprivation of purpose leads to suicide/depression is a result of us being social creatures. Suicidal tendencies can be seen in other creatures like bees. If a bee becomes sick they distance themselves from the hive and eventually die alone. They do this to protect the hive.

So it is my belief that when we no longer have a self-perceived value. We'll tend to distance ourselves and perhaps committing suicide as a way to maintain the social order.

Social order in the sense that everyone contributes, or at least believe they contribute, to some degree and in turn have this innate sense of purpose, a perceived sense of value toward the community.

Does anyone have any other thoughts. Sorry did a bit of rambling.

 

[rs929]

The question implies there is an universal answer. It may be rational, or not, depending upon each person.

I think a huge percent of suicidal people are under heavy negative emotions though, and the ideal of being able to think rationally without any trace of emotion behind it is utopian

 

[SquirrelsInMyPants]

I think it depends, in some cases it could be irrational (like after a tough break up), and in others, it is totally rational, when there isn't a posibility of things getting better for you, but our state of mind can make it difficult to differentiate between this two.

 

[Superdeterminist]

No, I don't think it is.

 

[motel rooms]

The blind instinct for self-preservation at any cost is what's irrational.

 

[Aloken]

The blind instinct for self-preservation at any cost is what's irrational.

Damn, that's an awesome way to put it.

 

[StringPuppet]

Those professionals may know a lot about specific subjects but they aren't the arbiters of morality.

 

[rs929]

I might add, I think we are built to enjoy life.

It is society which disables us to enjoy, because morals, ideals, bad people, idk, whatever...

So it might be rational to die if you're suffering, but unless you have stage 4 cancer, there's something intrinsically wrong with suffering so much.

It MIGHT be possible that we recover the ability to enjoy life though elevated means, like art. Writing, acting, music, whatever.

 

[motel rooms]

I might add, I think we are built to enjoy life.

Sorry, but I can't resist :
"There is only one inborn error, and that is the notion that we exist in order to be happy. For at every step, in things great and small, we are bound to experience that the world and life are certainly not arranged for the purpose of maintaining a happy existence."
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788 - 1860)

 

[demuic]

In all reality no I don't think it's irrational. It's something I talked to my therapist about and exclaimed that we may be pre-programmed to be a little self-destructive under certain conditions.

The fact of the matter is this is not a uniquely-human problem. Other species of animals have experienced depression as well. It can be seen in places like zoos before the whole movement of ethical treatment of the animals.

They wouldn't get enough exercise would be spoonfed and would ultimately become depressed. Nowadays in some instances they feed the captive animals in a way that helps them keep their hunting instincts. Letting loose a live animal for it to hunt down and eat instead of force feeding.

This leads me to believe that people need to have an innate sense of purpose to want to live. And subsequently that if they don't have this sense of purpose they become depressed and suicidal.

So from my understanding, now that we have medicine to keep us alive longer than ever. An abundance of food available at least in most developed countries. And laws that keep conflict between other humans to a minimum. We have in sense deprived ourselves of purpose.

One reason that I believe this deprivation of purpose leads to suicide/depression is a result of us being social creatures. Suicidal tendencies can be seen in other creatures like bees. If a bee becomes sick they distance themselves from the hive and eventually die alone. They do this to protect the hive.

So it is my belief that when we no longer have a self-perceived value. We'll tend to distance ourselves and perhaps committing suicide as a way to maintain the social order.

Social order in the sense that everyone contributes, or at least believe they contribute, to some degree and in turn have this innate sense of purpose, a perceived sense of value toward the community.

Does anyone have any other thoughts. Sorry did a bit of rambling.

I completely agree. Life without a purpose is no life at all. Society has deprived people of any meaningful purpose or the pursuit of purpose. This will only get worse as more and more things become automated and human efforts become irrelevant, which will cause the complete disruption of life. Even in your example of animals needing to hunt to have a purpose it's similar in humans. It's why some people yearn to go back to the more simple times of life like farming for food, building your own house, providing everything for yourself, etc. In ancient times humans had a purpose, everything they did was for their own continued existence. When someone's basic needs are easily fulfilled what else is there to strive for? People start looking towards the philosophical and metaphysical and realizing there is no inherent purpose beyond continued survival breeds depression. On top of that there is the powerlessness that one faces in civilization, being beholden to the laws of other powerful entities and not being able to pursue your true desires due to the multitude of obstacles in front of you. With society putting so much emphasis on what you need to provide to society and to others while in most countries providing no actual help to its citizens it's no wonder someone would want to be culled from the herd.

I think having a strong sense of community and specific value within that community is one thing that can really make life worth living but in this increasingly alienated world it becomes more and more difficult.

 

[GarageKarate07]

I think in a way it's a form of self perseverance but instead of physical like eating or taking shelter we take our soul/ spirit out of the picture because of the emotional pain we are having a hard time enduring. It's not just personal spiritual pain we experience here but the pain of the collective is just heart breaking. Young children CTB in "civilized" schools over mistreatment. children CTB because of abusive or neglecting parents who are supposed to be out first line of love protection and defense. children also die from starvation, wars, political problems. We are all just "caught in the meat grinder" and its really just sick.

Who the fuck would want to argue to "stay here" and claim they have a rational mind?

 

[rosie]

i really don't think it is? or maybe it's just because i've felt like this for so long i don't think it is, but apparently most people don't have thoughts of hurting themself or ctb

 

[MyrSS]

I completely agree. Life without a purpose is no life at all. Society has deprived people of any meaningful purpose or the pursuit of purpose. This will only get worse as more and more things become automated and human efforts become irrelevant, which will cause the complete disruption of life. Even in your example of animals needing to hunt to have a purpose it's similar in humans. It's why some people yearn to go back to the more simple times of life like farming for food, building your own house, providing everything for yourself, etc. In ancient times humans had a purpose, everything they did was for their own continued existence. When someone's basic needs are easily fulfilled what else is there to strive for? People start looking towards the philosophical and metaphysical and realizing there is no inherent purpose beyond continued survival breeds depression. On top of that there is the powerlessness that one faces in civilization, being beholden to the laws of other powerful entities and not being able to pursue your true desires due to the multitude of obstacles in front of you. With society putting so much emphasis on what you need to provide to society and to others while in most countries providing no actual help to its citizens it's no wonder someone would want to be culled from the herd.

I think having a strong sense of community and specific value within that community is one thing that can really make life worth living but in this increasingly alienated world it becomes more and more difficult.

Yep agree. Unfortunately that therapist scolded me for saying that.They tried to lecture me that there is no reason to rationalize suicide.

So I ended up dropping that therapist. And eventually realized none of them want truth. They only want to "save" people.

 

[rs929]

Sorry, but I can't resist :
"There is only one inborn error, and that is the notion that we exist in order to be happy. For at every step, in things great and small, we are bound to experience that the world and life are certainly not arranged for the purpose of maintaining a happy existence."
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788 - 1860)

Also Schopenhauer:

"Suicide is an error which solves nothing. The person who commits suicide because he has suffered greatly and sees no fulfillment in this world for his strivings, is deluded: he still regards fulfillment of his individual strivings as something in principle attainable and valuable. Greatly superior to this is continuing to exist with an attitude of resignation in the face of all suffering."

I would rather choose Freud's life and death drives theory, which owes a lot to Nietzsche and Schopenhauer

 

[motel rooms]

Also Schopenhauer:

"Suicide is an error which solves nothing. The person who commits suicide because he has suffered greatly and sees no fulfillment in this world for his strivings, is deluded: he still regards fulfillment of his individual strivings as something in principle attainable and valuable. Greatly superior to this is continuing to exist with an attitude of resignation in the face of all suffering."

I would rather choose Freud's life and death drives theory, which owes a lot to Nietzsche and Schopenhauer

Not that I need his permission, but he also wrote this :
"They tell us that suicide is the greatest piece of cowardice; that only a madman could be guilty of it; and other insipidities of the same kind; or else they make the nonsensical remark that suicide is wrong; when it is quite obvious that there is nothing in the world to which every man has a more unassailable title than to his own life and person."
-- A. Schopenhauer, Studies in Pessimism: The Essays

 

[rs929]

Not that I need his permission, but he also wrote this :
"They tell us that suicide is the greatest piece of cowardice; that only a madman could be guilty of it; and other insipidities of the same kind; or else they make the nonsensical remark that suicide is wrong; when it is quite obvious that there is nothing in the world to which every man has a more unassailable title than to his own life and person."
-- A. Schopenhauer, Studies in Pessimism: The Essays

I completely agree with that.

And yet, he doesn't agree with suicide from a philosophical point of view, as shown in my previous citation.

It's worth noting that you're citing probably the most pessimistic philosopher in history.

EDIT: No, seriously. Schopenhauer is against suicide. Not because it's morally wrong, or because you don't have the right to do it or because of cowardice. He is philosophically against it. It exceeds me to give a worthy explanation, but it is the will that you have to get rid of, not your life. Commiting suicide is proof that you haven't got rid of such will.
I think it has a lot of common with buddhist principle that life is suffering, and suffering comes from desire. You should abolish desire in order to stop suffering

 

[motel rooms]

I completely agree with that.

And yet, he doesn't agree with suicide from a philosophical point of view, as shown in my previous citation.

It's worth noting that you're citing probably the most pessimistic philosopher in history.

Actually, Schopenhauer found the ascetic's death by starvation "philosophically acceptable" because he had a soft spot for India.
I don't see him as a pessimist, to me he's a realist I have my worldview & you have yours. If you're still able to "enjoy life though elevated means, like art", more power to you. Poetry, novels, music & films used to mean a lot to me, but these days I'm in too much physical pain to enjoy anything

 

[MyrSS]

Actually, Schopenhauer found the ascetic's death by starvation "philosophically acceptable" because he had a soft spot for India.
I don't see him as a pessimist, to me he's a realist I have my worldview & you have yours. If you're still able to "enjoy life though elevated means, like art", more power to you. Poetry, novels, music & films used to mean a lot to me, but these days I'm in too much physical pain to enjoy anything

To me he just seems as confused as the rest of us heh.

 

[motel rooms]

To me he just seems as confused as the rest of us heh.

Then simply disregard his opinions & enjoy your experience on this planet

 

[MyrSS]

Then simply disregard his opinions & enjoy your experience on this planet

Existence is too painful to me. Just seems like that philosopher was completely undecided on the morality of suicide.

 

[rs929]

Actually, Schopenhauer found the ascetic's death by starvation "philosophically acceptable" because he had a soft spot for India.
I don't see him as a pessimist, to me he's a realist I have my worldview & you have yours. If you're still able to "enjoy life though elevated means, like art", more power to you. Poetry, novels, music & films used to mean a lot to me, but these days I'm in too much physical pain to enjoy anything

That's interesting and I had to google about it. It seems you know quite a bit about philosophy. At least Schopenhauer philosophy.
Death by starvation would be philosophically "acceptable" because of a complete indifference "will-nesness" towards life and death. So basically it's not suicide by starvation, it's the fact that you just don't give a shit about anything anymore that you stop eating.
I feel a little guilt tripped with your comment regards my ability to enjoy life. It is very limited at the moment. But I do have glimpses of hope sometimes. I hope you do find them too