Is there actually a deep state in the US?

[noname223]

A Deep State of His Own

How Trump plans to weaponize America’s bureaucracy.

www.foreignaffairs.com

Currently I am reading this article.

They give the following definition of the deep state.

"The Shallow State
The malevolent, subterranean American deep state that Trump and his supporters have been railing against since 2016 does not, in fact, exist. But that will not stop Trump from inventing one from scratch. Scholars and analysts have long used the term to describe powerful ministries and state-run utilities whose entrenched officers do one of two things: either they clash routinely with elected leaders, denying them the ability to govern democratically; or they coddle them, insulating those leaders from legal or political reckonings. The term has aptly described power dynamics in countries such as Egypt, Pakistan, and Turkey, where militaries maintained close control of bureaucratic and political systems even when civilians were nominally in charge. Scholars have rarely used it to describe the United States. And rightly so.

The United States does not have a deep state in large part because the U.S. bureaucracy is notoriously weak. Federal agencies are very much under the thumb of elected presidents and their politically appointed administrators. There are no state-owned utilities of consequence and, with the notable but practically neolithic exception of the Civil War, the country has no culture or history of bureaucrats, military officers, or other government functionaries engaging in subversive, usurping, or otherwise anti-democratic projects. Careful observers of American administrative governance point to a different reality: the United States' bureaucracies are chronically underfunded, understaffed, often micromanaged by the White House, and regularly trussed up by Congress and the courts. Far from being dangerously deep, the American state may be understood as perilously shallow, a near-chronic condition enabled by successive generations of Americans viewing government with great suspicion. The state is already stretched thin when called upon to meet day-to-day demands, never mind when it is expected to respond to acute crises ranging from the COVID-19 pandemic to the serial coups across the Sahel."

I am very hesitant to trust this article. Most of the authors of Foreign Affairs are hawks/part of the establishment and have an interest to downplay the impact of the deep state. Or they even question its existence.

I have not finished the article yet. I am curious about your opinions.

 

[derpyderpins]

man you really heavily get influenced by a narrow range of stuff. Just being honest. I try so hard to avoid commenting on the dozens of politics threads but this one is just too nuts. The US government is massive and bloated possibly beyond anything ever seen in history. An insane amount of power is held by unelected offices. The FBI, CIA, etc., (every intelligence agency) are not provided for anywhere in our governing documents, and no one in charge of them is voted for - and they stick around forever! The federal reserve is largely untethered from our government yet has an incredible controlling influence. Every industry, eg. big pharma, has a regular rotation of its executives into unelected positions of power in our regulatory bodies, and no citizen votes for any of them.

Both sides of the aisle have traditionally been able to agree on skepticism of intelligence agencies, the banks, the pharma lobbies, etc. It's crazy to me to see these ideas now being rejected. This article is clearly only suggesting there is no deep state - or even more insultingly that the US deep state is "weak" - because it's counter what their enemy is saying.

the country has no culture or history of bureaucrats, military officers, or other government functionaries engaging in subversive, usurping, or otherwise anti-democratic projects.

lol says who? The bureaucrats, military officers, and other government functionaries? That's simply an absurd statement. Of course, it's subjective as to what is "anti-democratic," but fucking come on. MKUltra happened, and I don't believe for a second the CIA just learned their lesson and stopped doing bad stuff after conveniently destroying all the records: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKUltra . Did we all forget Edward Snowden? Does the modern lib hate him now, too? I can't keep up.

It's fine to hate Trump. Hate whoever you want, but let's not act like the rest of the US government is rainbows and unicorns because of him.

*Edit: and lol we're not anti-democratic? Our war machine sticks its nose into every fucking conflict around the world so we can have a say in who takes power. We are kingmakers world-wide to increase the deep-state international influence. Good lord.

 

[DarkRange55]

Federal Reserve - no. Stupid conspiracy theories that don't understand modern economics.

But this quote is perfect!!

"Not some men-in-black guy living in a bunker somewhere, but some seemingly ordinary and mundane guy. Maybe a military officer? Maybe a CIA employee? Maybe a White House staffer? Somebody with years of experience and a mid to high level rank/authority?
The deep state are bureaucrats that are appointed, not elected, it is the congress critters who have a $128K/annual salary who are worth $200M, it's the people who have been in office for decades blaming everything else for why their constituency is worse off. It is the FBI and CIA that have more power than sovereign countries and that have unlimited funding due to clandestine activities and asset seizures."


A lot of this has more to do with maneuvering the geopolitical chessboard against Russia and China…

The Fed is not a conspiracy… my friend works there and my other friend used to be a lawyer here.

 

[derpyderpins]

Federal Reserve - no. Stupid conspiracy theories that don't understand modern economics.

But this quote is perfect!!

"Not some men-in-black guy living in a bunker somewhere, but some seemingly ordinary and mundane guy. Maybe a military officer? Maybe a CIA employee? Maybe a White House staffer? Somebody with years of experience and a mid to high level rank/authority?
The deep state are bureaucrats that are appointed, not elected, it is the congress critters who have a $128K/annual salary who are worth $200M, it's the people who have been in office for decades blaming everything else for why their constituency is worse off. It is the FBI and CIA that have more power than sovereign countries and that have unlimited funding due to clandestine activities and asset seizures."


A lot of this has more to do with maneuvering the geopolitical chessboard against Russia and China…

The Fed is not a conspiracy… my friend works there and my other friend used to be a lawyer here.

Since OP did not mention the federal reserve, I assume this is directed at me. I don't understand what "the fed is a conspiracy" would even mean. Are you saying the fed has no power? Or that they're elected? The deep state doesn't have to be evil to be a deep state.

Also, you having friends there is exactly as convincing as if I said I had a friend at the CIA so "The [CIA] is not a conspiracy." (Edit: forgot the )

 

[DarkRange55]

Since OP did not mention the federal reserve, I assume this is directed at me. I don't understand what "the fed is a conspiracy" would even mean. Are you saying the fed has no power? Or that they're elected? The deep state doesn't have to be evil to be a deep state.

Also, you having friends there is exactly as convincing as if I said I had a friend at the CIA so "The [CIA] is not a conspiracy." (Edit: forgot the View attachment 146634)

The fed is at the center of many conspiracies. Many people will wrongly tell you, "Its not a bank. No reserves. Not American. Not Federal."
So while not necessarily directed at you, your comment made me think of all the silly ideas.

"The seven members of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System are nominated by the President and confirmed by the Senate. A full term is fourteen years."

Board Members

The Federal Reserve Board of Governors in Washington DC.

www.federalreserve.gov

The CEO of my family's office (FO means wealth management company), is a former lawyer for the St. Louis branch. What I mean by this is, this is an actual expert on the subject. Not just a random video off youtube with no sources.
But yes. 1. An organization can still be evil. 2. I could know someone evil.
My aunt for exmaple works very high-level for the CIA. It's still a corrupt as hell organization.

The federal reserve does not have as much power as people think. Watch that video. It's not owned by the Rothschilds.

A Deep State of His Own

How Trump plans to weaponize America’s bureaucracy.

www.foreignaffairs.com

Currently I am reading this article.

They give the following definition of the deep state.

"The Shallow State
The malevolent, subterranean American deep state that Trump and his supporters have been railing against since 2016 does not, in fact, exist. But that will not stop Trump from inventing one from scratch. Scholars and analysts have long used the term to describe powerful ministries and state-run utilities whose entrenched officers do one of two things: either they clash routinely with elected leaders, denying them the ability to govern democratically; or they coddle them, insulating those leaders from legal or political reckonings. The term has aptly described power dynamics in countries such as Egypt, Pakistan, and Turkey, where militaries maintained close control of bureaucratic and political systems even when civilians were nominally in charge. Scholars have rarely used it to describe the United States. And rightly so.

The United States does not have a deep state in large part because the U.S. bureaucracy is notoriously weak. Federal agencies are very much under the thumb of elected presidents and their politically appointed administrators. There are no state-owned utilities of consequence and, with the notable but practically neolithic exception of the Civil War, the country has no culture or history of bureaucrats, military officers, or other government functionaries engaging in subversive, usurping, or otherwise anti-democratic projects. Careful observers of American administrative governance point to a different reality: the United States' bureaucracies are chronically underfunded, understaffed, often micromanaged by the White House, and regularly trussed up by Congress and the courts. Far from being dangerously deep, the American state may be understood as perilously shallow, a near-chronic condition enabled by successive generations of Americans viewing government with great suspicion. The state is already stretched thin when called upon to meet day-to-day demands, never mind when it is expected to respond to acute crises ranging from the COVID-19 pandemic to the serial coups across the Sahel."

I am very hesitant to trust this article. Most of the authors of Foreign Affairs are hawks/part of the establishment and have an interest to downplay the impact of the deep state. Or they even question its existence.

I have not finished the article yet. I am curious about your opinions.

The Diplomat Magazine has that, too…

Anyway what do you mean by "Deep State?" Because this term seems a little nebulous
Do you mean how MAGA supporters always use the term?

 

[noname223]

The fed is at the center of many conspiracies. Many people will wrongly tell you, "Its not a bank. No reserves. Not American. Not Federal."
So while not necessarily directed at you, your comment made me think of all the silly ideas.

"The seven members of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System are nominated by the President and confirmed by the Senate. A full term is fourteen years."

Board Members

The Federal Reserve Board of Governors in Washington DC.

www.federalreserve.gov

The CEO of my family's office (FO means wealth management company), is a former lawyer for the St. Louis branch. What I mean by this is, this is an actual expert on the subject. Not just a random video off youtube with no sources.
But yes. 1. An organization can still be evil. 2. I could know someone evil.
My aunt for exmaple works very high-level for the CIA. It's still a corrupt as hell organization.

The federal reserve does not have as much power as people think. Watch that video. It's not owned by the Rothschilds.

The Diplomat Magazine has that, too…

Anyway what do you mean by "Deep State?" Because this term seems a little nebulous
Do you mean how MAGA supporters always use the term?

I think the term is indeed used ambigously. And I think the article used the ambiguity of the definition trying to prove its case. The article in some instances seemed to be sort of manipulative because it sometimes used different definitions of the "deep state". It helps a lot in argumentation to switch between different definitions it gives you wiggle room and room for interpretation.

I had the feeling the article was not fully convincing. But I was curious about the reactions on this forum. On the internet there are many conspiracy minded people. But the way this article handled it was mediocre. I think there is some truth in the deep state conspiracy. But in the end it depends on how you define it.

To answer your question @DarkRange55 Personally, I don't have a definition of the deep state. I expected you to say that the CIA, FBI and other intelligence services are part of the deep state. In general I was curious about your reply. The article was like "trust me we are an authoritative legitimate news source and all the others went down the wrong internet rabbit hole." But only because it is "Foreign Affairs" it does not necessarily mean its true. Tbh as I said the magazine is full of war mongerers whose opinions have to be taken with a grain of salt. If you want to take down a conspiracy room for interpretation is counterproductive. It would have been a more honest approach to say in which sense and in which definition there might be some truth in this conspiracy. (of course also clarifying where some interpretations are bullshit.)

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Yeah there's a deep state. A deep state of discontent and apathy that makes the plot of any conspiracy fall apart because most people don't actually care enough.