Is the State of Feeling Shy Beneficial or Disadvantageous?

[Snake of Eden]

Shyness and shame seem to be related on some level but they are not the same. Shyness is defined as being timid by being or doing something around people while shame is more like an internalized feeling of guilt and questioning one's conduct and behaviors when are perceived not to conform to social norms. If someone behaved in a situation where they are expected to feel shy about like peeing in public site around people then people may yell at them to have some shame and pee somewhere else (act decent)

Is shyness and shame instinctual traits or are they social constructs taught to us to help us learn to behave within social norms so we are not outcasted?

If natural then what could be the evolutionary advantages to it?

Is shame always a bad thing?

Is shamelessness a better and freer way to be?

Should society throw shame out the window if possible and opt to teach its members to fight it so they dont experience the negative emotions associated with it?

I would like to hear your thoughts on this. Why beneficial? Why disadvantageous? Why neither?

P.S. Animals like cats seem to experience shyness from what I observed when they are going to the toilet usually they dont look like they enjoy being stared at. Weird eh?!

 

[GenesAndEnvironment]

Tfw no shy gf.

 

[NumbItAll]

it's an extrovert's world

 

[stilldreaming]

Is shyness and shame instinctual traits or are they social constructs taught to us to help us learn to behave within social norms so we are not outcasted?

I once read that disgust is something we're culturally conditioned to. That said, it's gotta grow from somewhere. No one will ever condition a shark to feel shyness or shame (or disgust). They don't have the neural structure for it. So, there needs to be a part of brain where that feeling can grow from, if that makes sense?

Everything for me relates back to evolution, so the only reason we do in fact have the neural structure for complex emotions is because it's beneficial for our survival. Sharks and crocodiles and alligators, they basically reached perfection tens of millions of years ago and so have changed very little. They adapted perfectly to their environments very quickly, whereas we had to keep going at it, trial and error until eventually our genes found that having larger brains and working together helped ensure survival. (Just think about it: when we were little rodents scurrying about trying to avoid the dinosaurs 70 million years ago, crocodiles and alligators meanwhile looked almost the same as they do today. We kept changing because we had to, whereas for them, they were already at peak evolution)

As for shame vs shameless, this will be endless discussion about shades of gray. Being 'shameless' is undoubtedly very liberating. I firmly believe in the concept of a social contract however, and if someone is 'shameless' (eg Donald Trump) they need only come along and smash that social contract for their own benefit.

Wielded correctly, using 'shame' as a tool to influence social behavior is much better than, say, violence. First however we all need to agree on what's 'moral' and 'shameful'. This is a lot more difficult to decide then it needs to be, for some reason. For me, if someone purposefully cause harm to others (or doesn't care about causing harm to others), welllll let's just say they're not a very helpful member of society, in my opinion.

Growing up, people used to be ashamed to admit to racist or biased thoughts and feelings. Now people are openly proud about it. Should they be ashamed of themselves? Well tbh - like I said, I am interested in 'shaming' others insofar as it can be used to guide people's behavior to be kinder and more thoughtful. If shaming people is an ineffective tool to achieve this, I have no interest in it beyond that.

Sorry. Lots of rambling and not very concise. ...I ought to be ashamed of myself! :P

 

[Interloper]

it's an extrovert's world

introverted != shy

 

[Ringo]

introverted != shy

It isn't necessarily the same, an introvert tends to enjoy its time alone more and often has difficulty expressing his feelings and thoughts spontaneously, someone shy is one who constantly feels insecure or embarrassed in social situations.

 

[GenesAndEnvironment]

introverted != shy

Are you writing code or something?

 

[Interloper]

Are you writing code or something?

Sometimes the coder in me just slips out, my apologies.

 

[Ringo]

Are you writing code or something?

He is using factorials to discover the true meaning through an objective discipline.

 

[Snake of Eden]

It isn't necessarily the same, an introvert tends to enjoy its time alone more and often has difficulty expressing his feelings and thoughts spontaneously, someone shy is one who constantly feels insecure or embarrassed in social situations.

Yes i second this. Introverts are not necessarily shy. They just don't get as much gratification from social interactions. It feels naturally more like a chore to them imo

 

[NumbItAll]

introverted != shy

I feel great shame for my haphazard post and will donate that as research for this thread.

 

[demuic]

Wielded correctly, using 'shame' as a tool to influence social behavior is much better than, say, violence. First however we all need to agree on what's 'moral' and 'shameful'. This is a lot more difficult to decide then it needs to be, for some reason. For me, if someone purposefully cause harm to others (or doesn't care about causing harm to others), welllll let's just say they're not a very helpful member of society, in my opinion

That is similar to how I feel.

Shame has its uses however those who should most feel ashamed of themselves or their behavior are usually the most shameless and those who are riddled with insecurities and self doubt don't usually deserve to look at themselves so harshly. So it ends up being mostly counterproductive in practice.

I would think someone should feel ashamed of doing bad things, like cheating on someone, bullying someone, etc, if they are the kind of person who is capable of shame.

A comparison can be made of modesty or humility vs shame, shame undoubtedly has a negative connotation, while the former concepts are not quite the same concept but similar and can be more of a productive value.

Shyness specifically, I'm not sure how that can be seen as an advantage at all.

Like many things it's best not to stray too far into either extreme.

 

[Snake of Eden]

Shyness specifically, I'm not sure how that can be seen as an advantage at all.

Like many things it's best not to stray too far into either extreme.

But could you think of any evolutionary utilities to it in past or present? Because it does sound natural vs nurtured feeling to me from what I read here so far unless you think otherwise

 

[Snake of Eden]

Cats seem not to like being stared at while at W.C. i could be wrong but I got a strong sense if it. Very weird

 

[Snake of Eden]

For the guys/men here (mainly straight), you dont find an interested yet spontaneously shy partner somewhat more enticing?

 

[stilldreaming]

Shyness specifically, I'm not sure how that can be seen as an advantage at all.

They're certainly not quite the same, but according to Mr Dictionary, 'suspicious' is a potential synonym for 'shy'. And, I can certainly think of reasons why it might be helpful / advantageous to be suspicious or cautious around people. In the natural world, all animals are extremely cautious because even small encounters can lead to death.

I always think of bears, most people know by now that they will always flee unless you get between a mother and her cub. Any bear can tear apart a human, and yet with no ego to fluff, they will always instantly choose to run rather than risk an encounter. An injured animal is usually a dead animal, not to mention but fights are extremely calorically costly. So they're just not worth it, run away and live another day.

Caution is the default in the natural world, though for primates (and other animals too I'm sure) it's been helpful to us for at least some of the tribe to be a bit reckless. And because it can be helpful, reckless males - you've probably noticed - will be rewarded by females and so pass on their reckless genes. Hence "faint heart never won fair maid" and similar such sayings, though obviously there's a bit more to it than that and especially these days more and more females are taking the first move. (ermmm sorry trying not to end on a somber note here, being cripplingly shy is real, though firsthand I have seen such people fall in love and get married)

 

[Snake of Eden]

They're certainly not quite the same, but according to Mr Dictionary, 'suspicious' is a potential synonym for 'shy'. And, I can certainly think of reasons why it might be helpful / advantageous to be suspicious or cautious around people. In the natural world, all animals are extremely cautious because even small encounters can lead to death.

I always think of bears, most people know by now that they will always flee unless you get between a mother and her cub. Any bear can tear apart a human, and yet with no ego to fluff, they will always instantly choose to run rather than risk an encounter. An injured animal is usually a dead animal, not to mention but fights are extremely calorically costly. So they're just not worth it, run away and live another day.

Caution is the default in the natural world, though for primates (and other animals too I'm sure) it's been helpful to us for at least some of the tribe to be a bit reckless. And because it can be helpful, reckless males - you've probably noticed - will be rewarded by females and so pass on their reckless genes. Hence "faint heart never won fair maid" and similar such sayings, though obviously there's a bit more to it than that and especially these days more and more females are taking the first move. (ermmm sorry trying not to end on a somber note here, being cripplingly shy is real, though firsthand I have seen such people fall in love and get married)

I hear what you are saying but being shy on its face value does not really feel it has much to do with survival per se. There is shyness that relates to cautiousness around potential perceived humiliation which also has some antisocial connotation to it and relates to low self esteem and shame but it takes the shape of social anxiety which is like an extreme state of shyness. There is also the sexual type of shyness around novel partners exchanging flirty looks or while introducing foreplay like being undressed and seeing each other naked and it feels like a stretch to imply that survival has anything to do with it. I dont get the feeling that shyness is instrumental in a survival setting. Just my opinion but happy to hear different prospectives.

P.S. Shyness seems to be somewhat instrumental to set boundaries. Cats are very aware of boundaries and they dont seem to like being watched while on the toilet. As humans boundaries are no doubtly beneficial and if sexual shyness is natural vs nurtured then could it be that as humans we are supposed to be very aware and reserved as to when we select our mates and consciously have difficult time letting someone in too close until we get to know them well and there is a sense of trust. Maybe when shyness becomes no issue with unfamiliar partners it could be uncomfortable psychologically on an unconscious level as we are not expressing our natural boundaries instinct and so we can feel somewhat imbalanced as a result or exploited of being sexually intimate with unfamiliar partners (even while consenting?) I think sexual intimacy is a process and is boundary sensitive and personal values maybe necessary to protect feelings of wellbeing and self esteem so people dont feel negative emotions resulting from sexual interactions with people who havent earned the boundary breaking status.

 

[stilldreaming]

There is shyness that relates to cautiousness around potential perceived humiliation which also has some antisocial connotation to it and relates to low self esteem and shame but it takes the shape of social anxiety which is like an extreme state of shyness.

So when it comes to evolution and how we've turned out, you hafta remember - modern civilization is not something our brains are equipped to handle. Up until very very recently, most people would be dead by age 25. And your day-to-day life would be consumed with survival tasks. Concepts like "low self esteem" - as odd as it sounds! - are something I consider to be something of a luxury of modern civilization. We have the leisure (and safety) to overthink things, and this is quite a new development.

My brother once went on an extended camping trip for several months, he couldn't believe how busy he was from sunup to sundown. And, this is with getting regular drops of food and supplies and having all sorts of tools and equipment that our ancestors couldn't dream of.

This is why I always say: our brains make more sense in the environment in which they spent millions of years evolving. We're stone age machines, and hm I somehow doubt there was a lot of 'life dissatisfaction' in the stone age ;) (Also you talk about shyness from being naked around someone, well when our brains developed the ability to process 'shyness' clothing certainly didn't exist!)

Here I just did a google, all sorts of people claim being shy is an evolutionary advantage. This is just the first results but plenty more:

10 Oddly Helpful Benefits Of Being Shy

Are you shy and think this is a weakness? You may be looking at shyness the wrong way. According to the latest research, somewhere between 40 and 60 percent of all adults report being shy. And while it’s easy to get down on yourself when you are shy or socially anxious, there are times when it’s...

www.truity.com

"If you're used to thinking of your shyness as something wrong with you, know this: shyness is not a personality mistake, but an evolutionary advantage. According to evolutionary psychologists, the tendency to fear and avoid strangers is hardwired into our psyche."

Considering how much we compete with other humans / tribes, being fearful around other humans seems quite reasonable to me. I dunno I am certainly not an evolutionary psychologist, I'm just someone who enjoys thinking about these sorts of things, thanks for asking the question! :)

P.S. Shyness seems to be somewhat instrumental to set boundaries. Cats are very aware of boundaries and they dont seem to like being watched while on the toilet. As humans boundaries are no doubtly beneficial and if sexual shyness is natural vs nurtured then could it be that as humans we are supposed to be very aware and reserved as to when we select our mates and consciously have difficult time letting someone in too close until we get to know them well and there is a sense of trust. Maybe when shyness becomes no issue with unfamiliar partners it could be uncomfortable psychologically on an unconscious level as we are not expressing our natural boundaries instinct and so we can feel somewhat imbalanced as a result or exploited of being sexually intimate with unfamiliar partners (even while consenting?) I think sexual intimacy is a process and is boundary sensitive and personal values maybe necessary to protect feelings of wellbeing and self esteem so people dont feel negative emotions resulting from sexual interactions with people who havent earned the boundary breaking status.

Oh sorry just saw the PS. Okay, so - many mammals relieving themselves tend to be very much on alert when doing so because they're making themselves very vulnerable. (Just something I heard once, from my brother, so not an expert or anything!) But it makes sense, wouldn't it be horrible if a predator was watching you and waiting for a moment when you're not quite prepared, and they jump on you?

The opposite of cats, dogs seem to want to watch you while they go, and I heard somewhere that's more to do with trust in their pack (their thought process: "hey you're watching out for me right now right?!" whereas cats might be like, "hmmm my brain says I should be alert for anything watching me right now...")

It's interesting you linked shame and shyness, and just as what we 'ought' to be ashamed of is certainly influenced by culture, I am sure there is some cultural influence in terms of what people are shy about. (In the US and the UK, people certainly like to joke about how amazingly 'unshy' older people - male or female - are in the changing room at the gym)

Food for thought...

 

[Snake of Eden]

Considering how much we compete with other humans / tribes, being fearful around other humans seems quite reasonable to me. I dunno I am certainly not an evolutionary psychologist, I'm just someone who enjoys thinking about these sorts of things, thanks for asking the question! :)

Yah again being shy is not the same as being afraid as the target of perceived threat. I honestly give very little credence to whoever think shyness is a survival mechanism. When someone is experiencing shyness it is different sensation from anxiety triggered by perceived threat to oneself. Im sorry, are you telling me that feeling shyness as result of nudity in a sexual context and other sexual innuendos with newly not to familiar partners is a learned behavior? It surely doesnt seem that way especially for people who are completely new to sex.

 

[Interloper]

Up until very very recently, most people would be dead by age 25.

I thought that was debunked? As in, child/baby deaths dragging the average way down.

 

[Snake of Eden]

The opposite of cats, dogs seem to want to watch you while they go, and I heard somewhere that's more to do with trust in their pack (their thought process: "hey you're watching out for me right now right?!" whereas cats might be like, "hmmm my brain says I should be alert for anything watching me right now...")

Im sorry I brought cats to the picture not dogs as dogs are not boundary aware. Cats are very hard to gain trust and their trust can be won where they feel almost completely vulnerable around their owners and sibling pets yet they still maintain boundaries around people and other animals they trust. This is very obvious behavior and consistent among domestic cats

 

[stilldreaming]

Yah again being shy is not the same as being afraid as the target of perceived threat. I honestly give very little credence to whoever think shyness is a survival mechanism. When someone is experiencing shyness it is different sensation from anxiety triggered by perceived threat to oneself. Im sorry, are you telling me that feeling shyness as result of nudity in a sexual context and other sexual innuendos with newly not to familiar partners is a learned behavior? It surely doesnt seem that way especially for people who are completely new to sex.

So I've never so much as take a psychology course or anything, but you're saying shyness isn't related to fear? Is it not? As in, would not a similar part of the brain process fear / anxiety / shyness? (same as in the same part of the brain processes feelings relating to children and pets)

Shyness and nudity - well ya know there are rather nude tribes that exist to this day. A substitute teacher of mine told us a story, his friend (a missionary) took some clothing to one of those tribes and the ladies wore the clothing but the first thing they did was cut out holes for their bosoms. I'm sure we've all seen those Nat Geo documentaries of those tribes, and perhaps some researchers have looked into whether they have body shame, but I have no idea.

I thought that was debunked? As in, child/baby deaths dragging the average way down.

So, I am referring very specifically to the Stone Age, which is quite different than say the 19th century. Just some quick googling:

"The Stone Age people died - in respect to present - very early. Poor hygiene, illnesses, bad nourishment and burden of labour lead to an average life expectancy of 20-25 years. Many children already died in their first 4 years. In the Bronze and Iron Age, the adults already got a bit older: 30-45 years old."

"What was life expectancy 10000 years ago?
The more than 80 skeletons found in the area show the approximate average lifespan of the people living there then was between 25 and 30 years."


Life in the natural world is nasty, brutish and short as Hobbes pointed out.

 

[Snake of Eden]

So I've never so much as take a psychology course or anything, but you're saying shyness isn't related to fear? Is it not? As in, would not a similar part of the brain process fear / anxiety / shyness? (same as in the same part of the brain processes feelings relating to children and pets)

I dont need to take a psychology course to feel my feelings and to recognize which is which but thats just me I guess. Anyway, like I said, shyness in extreme cases turns to an anxiety and thats different sensation and unrelated to a survival related kind of threat

Shyness and nudity - well ya know there are rather nude tribes that exist to this day. A substitute teacher of mine told us a story, his friend (a missionary) took some clothing to one of those tribes and the ladies wore the clothing but the first thing they did was cut out holes for their bosoms. I'm sure we've all seen those Nat Geo documentaries of those tribes, and perhaps some researchers have looked into whether they have body shame, but I have no idea.

Yes thats right but I am speaking of sexual context related shyness. Some tribes maybe nude. I havent seen an indigenous society example where women walk bottom naked. Yet i dont see how this overrides shyness experienced with unexperienced partners getting to see each other up close and touch each other. This seems to be universal but somehow you seem to see it as a social taught kind of behavior. I bet you even nude people tribe feel shyness in being nude and aroused in sexual setting up close but we need scientists and research to confirm that because we cant really somewhat guage that ourselves. I think anyone who struggles with first time sexual experience feel some sense of shyness wether in a liberal society, reserved, conservative, nude tribes but what do I know??

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I think the only advantage to being shy is that some people find that attractive because it makes people seem more cute or mysterious. Other than that I don't see it bringing any other benefits unless we're talking in a survival sense because I guess getting less involved with other people could theoretically make you less likely to get into accidents or whatever.

 

[Snake of Eden]

I think the only advantage to being shy is that some people find that attractive because it makes people seem more cute or mysterious. Other than that I don't see it bringing any other benefits unless we're talking in a survival sense because I guess getting less involved with other people could theoretically make you less likely to get into accidents or whatever.

I dont understand how science explain that shyness is a survival mechanism. Thats completely detached from my own experiencing of shyness and what I observed with other people while they experience it. Maybe some critical thinking and believing our sensation related feelings associated with emotional states can guide us to tell if this is true or not?!! That doesnt make any sense to me but it seems that it does to people who will eat up anything that science tells them without reflecting but again maybe just me.

What do you think of what i wrote earlier.

"Shyness seems to be somewhat instrumental to set boundaries. Cats are very aware of boundaries and they dont seem to like being watched while on the toilet. As humans boundaries are no doubtly beneficial and if sexual shyness is natural vs nurtured then could it be that as humans we are supposed to be very aware and reserved as to when we select our mates and consciously have difficult time letting someone in too close until we get to know them well and there is a sense of trust. Maybe when shyness becomes no issue with unfamiliar partners it could be uncomfortable psychologically on an unconscious level as we are not expressing our natural boundaries instinct and so we can feel somewhat imbalanced as a result or exploited of being sexually intimate with unfamiliar partners (even while consenting?) I think sexual intimacy is a process and is boundary sensitive and personal values maybe necessary to protect feelings of wellbeing and self esteem so people dont feel negative emotions resulting from sexual interactions with people who havent earned the boundary breaking status."

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I dont understand how science explain that shyness is a survival mechanism. Thats completely detached from my own experiencing of shyness and what I observed with other people while they experience it. Maybe some critical thinking and believing our sensation related feelings associated with emotional states can guide us to tell if this is true or not?!! That doesnt make any sense to me but it seems that it does to people who will eat up anything that science tells them without reflecting but thats maybe just me.

What do you think of what i wrote earlier.

"Shyness seems to be somewhat instrumental to set boundaries. Cats are very aware of boundaries and they dont seem to like being watched while on the toilet. As humans boundaries are no doubtly beneficial and if sexual shyness is natural vs nurtured then could it be that as humans we are supposed to be very aware and reserved as to when we select our mates and consciously have difficult time letting someone in too close until we get to know them well and there is a sense of trust. Maybe when shyness becomes no issue with unfamiliar partners it could be uncomfortable psychologically on an unconscious level as we are not expressing our natural boundaries instinct and so we can feel somewhat imbalanced as a result or exploited of being sexually intimate with unfamiliar partners (even while consenting?) I think sexual intimacy is a process and is boundary sensitive and personal values maybe necessary to protect feelings of wellbeing and self esteem so people dont feel negative emotions resulting from sexual interactions with people who havent earned the boundary breaking status."

Yeah, I wasn't actually thinking of it scientifically per se, just trying to make my own unscientific hypothesis.

I was just speculating that MAYBE being more shy statistically makes you less likely to do things like rock climbing, sky diving, or even going out to bars every week and therefore more likely to stay alive.

As for what you posted that makes a whole lot of sense and it surely could be true. I never thought of shyness as a way of setting up boundaries and other defenses before but like I said, it makes sense, whether it's for intimate or platonic relationships.

Part of why I'd like a romantic partner for myself is because I wish I could have someone I didn't HAVE to feel as shy or introverted around and I could just be myself without having to put up so many walls due to fear. Intimacy is a huge part of what I'm missing but to dwell on it is useless in my case since I'm aware I'll likely never be able to get it.

 

[Snake of Eden]

I was just speculating that MAYBE being more shy statistically makes you less likely to do things like rock climbing, sky diving, or even going out to bars every week and therefore more likely to stay alive.

A counter argument to your hypothesis is that shy men would be at disadvantage at doing essential risky things like hunting for food and mount hiking, foraging in the wild, sailing etc. Shyness may seem to overlap with fear because of the hesitation that comes with both but they are distinct and somebody can be shy and fearful at the same time and that does not mean they are the same emotion. They are not

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

A counter argument to your hypothesis is that shy men would be at disadvantage at doing essential risky things like hunting for food and mount hiking, foraging in the wild, sailing etc. Shyness may seem to overlap with fear because of the hesitation that comes with both but they are distinct and somebody can be shy and fearful at the same time and that does not mean they are the same emotion. They are not

True, though I didn't want to say that the results of being shy might also vary by gender for fear of turning this into one of THOSE kinds of threads. I'm sure somebody could argue it's better for women to be shy than it is for men but I wouldn't really know maybe being a shy woman sucks just as bad as it does to be a shy man.

 

[Smart No More]

Cats seem not to like being stared at while at W.C. i could be wrong but I got a strong sense if it. Very weird

Cats don't like being scared at because it indicates a threat to them. Thwy blink at one another to display vulnerabilty in each others presence. It's an animalistic think but could be perceived a sign of respect. So if you slow blick at a cat you'll often see it blink back unless you're displaying a threat they don't feel comfortable with.


As far as shyness goes., there's always extremes and in those cases it's cripling and far from beneficial but I think its beneficial in moderation. Its a sign of self awareness and many people that don't feel any self awarwness are ignorant ass holes. A healthy amount of self awareness is a desirable trait to me (and I would say many others). I don't like overly confident people or ignorant people. Especially selectively ignorant types. You know, the type that does some shit and then calls you a 'hater' for calling them out on it. I can't stand these over simplified terms that get thrown about these days. Confidence is fine and when it's warranted and displayed humbly then it's perfectly fine. I'll take that but at the same time give me a semi shy type any day. I'll make them feel comfortable and their shyness will usually lift. Either way I respect them for their humility which there is way to little of in this modern world.

 

[Snake of Eden]

True, though I didn't want to say that the results of being shy might also vary by gender for fear of turning this into one of THOSE kinds of threads. I'm sure somebody could argue it's better for women to be shy than it is for men but I wouldn't really know maybe being a shy woman sucks just as bad as it does to be a shy man.

I dont think there is a much issue with being gender specific about it. I think it is very obvious that females are more shy creatures in general and especially with sexual intimacy at least in the early stages of relating to a mate. I am not claiming shyness is not culturally influenced to some extent nor that it can not be overriden with repeated behaviors that deem it counterproductive such as with people who are promiscuous. Yet I believe that even for people who dont feel shy anymore, where it is supposed to be felt for example in the case of mating with unfamiliar partner. There seems to be a negative emotional disturbance even if subtle to mating with not too familiar or not fully trusyed partners hence many people who are actively promiscuous do report negative feelings post sexual activity with not very familiar partners. Feelings like emptiness and being exploited are common to breaking boundaries with very casual partners whom people dont have much in common with or familiarity other than to have sex. I think this negative effect to overriding shyness in promiscuous people is consistent