Discussion Is suicide always the most logical thing to do?

[Aknu132]

Does anyone else feel guilty about trying to encourage someone else to keep going instead of killing themselves? We often feel guilty for encouraging someone to commit suicide, but we don't usually feel guilty for making the person go through with life and accumulate more and more suffering. Suicide, to me, is starting to seem like the most logical thing to do to stop suffering, 100% guaranteed if done correctly. If you encourage someone else to keep trying, it's not guaranteed that their suffering will end, they may end up accumulating even more suffering. Normally, people don't feel guilty for making someone move on, but I'm starting to think I shouldn't tell someone to move on because if it goes wrong, I might end up feeling guilty for making the person suffer even more. Every time I've ever had the thought of killing myself, if I had gone through with it, I would already be at peace. I moved on with my life, and the only thing I accumulated was more and more suffering. Suicide would have completely ended it all. Suicide seems so logical doesn't matter the reason for it. Does anyone agree with that?

 

[Tomorrow Is Today]

I think it's a matter of circumstance. We can't control whether life gets better or worse for us, but what we have is the capacity for reason. If someone feels that they can find the will to continue and be satisfied with it, good on them. Likewise, a decision to CTB is perfectly justified as well.

 

[Aknu132]

I think it's a matter of circumstance. We can't control whether life gets better or worse for us, but what we have is the capacity for reason. If someone feels that they can find the will to continue and be satisfied with it, good on them. Likewise, a decision to CTB is perfectly justified as well.

The SI can surpass our reason. From a logical point of view, i know that if I kill myself today I will suffer less than if I continue living, and many other people go through this. Our reason seems to be very weak against our instincts, at least for a large number of people. That's why I'm starting to think that suicide always seems logical despite the circumstances, it's guaranteed that your suffering will stop and that it won't continue. Keep living seems to risky.

 

[lpdsvm]

I don't know how suicidal people can become happy. That's the whole point. Not about keeping someone alive or not. My advice always contains some sorta journey and cold turkey methods. It can work depending on the person but I think it won't last long and there will be a decline. This is where I got tired because of more and bigger problems.

I don't feel happy. I feel like I don't belong anywhere here. Only some stability that doesn't really look stable is the only reason I'm alive. Why would I live that pathetic life. I owe nothing to anybody. I can CTB and that's it. All these "owes" won't mean anything.

 

[wannabeangel]

i do get a sense of guilt trying to convince someone to stay alive, when i dont want to exist on my own and know hearing that from someone usually doesnt help. that's why i kind of take a more neutral route, try and wish they could find some sort of happiness and peace again, what form that take may be in life or death, i cant be the one to judge. the one person i just cant do that with and will try to convince him otherwise is with my ex husband, which is hypocritical of me while he tells me the same yet im on here. i obviously couldnt really stop him, especially when he owns his own gun, but i just want him to have better than me and not have his life shattered by me, at least hold on especially when he has so many chances for more vs what i do. it's harder when it's with someone where personal connection is stronger, im sure it would be more hard even if i met a friend on here, though not as strong as the one i was married to, but that's a lotta personal bias, i try to usually avoid that especially on here unless it seems useful for a discussion

 

[TransientEternal]

If someone wants to die, I'll respect their wishes. If someone wants to recover, I'll respect their wishes. We don't get to decide. We are simply here to help them make informed decisions and give them a community where they can be heard without judgement.

 

[The Disqualified]

Does anyone else feel guilty about trying to encourage someone else to keep going instead of killing themselves?

Not at all.

Suicide seems so logical doesn't matter the reason for it. Does anyone agree with that?

No.

What seems logical to one can be heavily affected by one's psychological state.
And many people are uneasy with admitting that, as there is a comfort in believing that cold, austere logic alone will lead to an universal truth; just like there is a comfort in neglecting logic in favor of pure emotion.

At the end of the day, it really comes to down to your values, and your stances on suffering, consent, freedom etc.

I do believe in depressive realism to a certain extent, but not fully, as I still believe severe depression can distort one's reality significantly.

We often feel guilty for encouraging someone to commit suicide, but we don't usually feel guilty for making the person go through with life and accumulate more and more suffering. Suicide, to me, is starting to seem like the most logical thing to do to stop suffering, 100% guaranteed if done correctly. If you encourage someone else to keep trying, it's not guaranteed that their suffering will end, they may end up accumulating even more suffering.

This is a very dangerous and slippery line of thinking.

This is why universal truths like "suicide is the logical choice" are frail. How can you know your suffering will continue or cease in the future? You can't know the future; all you can do is judge on a case-by-case basis. This is what I believe in after a lot of introspection and experiences over the years.

Being very concrete here: take the case of a 70 year old man, in their death bed, with multiple chronic health conditions, and that has expressed their clear wish for euthanasia.
Now compare that with a 20 year old woman suffering from societal expectations, loneliness, and that shows signs of impulsive thinking while expressing strong doubts about their suicidality.

These two people are clearly in very different situations.
I would not be opposed to suicide in the first case, as the conditions are much more understandable. On the second case, however, the circumstances are very different and could reasonably improve.

Also, there are political and ethical factors to this — ones that I will not dwell too deeply here — but it is important to note that a person may still keep on living, despite their suffering, in favor of deeper goals such as political change or ethical-religious beliefs.

A lot of suffering is political and existential, in my view. I think there is value to those that keep living and belief in something; I admire those people.

Normally, people don't feel guilty for making someone move on, but I'm starting to think I shouldn't tell someone to move on because if it goes wrong, I might end up feeling guilty for making the person suffer even more. Every time I've ever had the thought of killing myself, if I had gone through with it, I would already be at peace. I moved on with my life, and the only thing I accumulated was more and more suffering.

I understand.
But now for an alternative scenario: what if the other person does manage to improve and live a happy live, and then goes on to be relieved that they did not commit suicide, but instead kept on trying.
Would you feel guilty for having told them to keep living? No. And, if you are an ethical person, you would probably be happy that they improved.

So, I am just pointing out that people can improve. Not everything is so bleak. I wouldn't advise people to commit suicide impulsively. And I do admit I am quite biased towards living these days, even though I know very well how suffering is like, and I have suffered a lot myself.

I wouldn't kill myself in the near future unless something extreme happens. In any case, I would rather exhaust all my options before going through with it.

 

[iwkmsssb]

we'll never know the full entirety of someone's suffering, only they themselves can determine whether staying or leaving will be beneficial. we can give advice based on our own experiences but we are just words on a screen and it's not guaranteed that whatever we say will change their mind or influence them in some sort of way. i just wish them peace on whichever decision they act on. the world is cruel so i wont judge anyone on how they cope.

 

[FuneralCry]

For me it'll always be, in this existence so torturous and terrible that is just waiting to die anyway only non-existence can solve everything for me and bring me the peace I search for from this existence I just always saw as the most terrible mistake, to be burdened with this existence for decades longer just to face the extreme agony of old age with no limit as to how much one can be tortured will just always be an abomination to me.

I could just never see any point or benefit to that rather it's the opposite, existing truly is just dreadful unnecessary suffering there was never a need for at all, for me ceasing to exist is suffering prevention as after all if I don't exist I cannot suffer in any way, there are no disadvantages to never suffering again, in this existence so torturous and cruel for me ceasing to exist is all that's desirable.

 

[The Disqualified]

I think it's a matter of circumstance. We can't control whether life gets better or worse for us, but what we have is the capacity for reason. If someone feels that they can find the will to continue and be satisfied with it, good on them. Likewise, a decision to CTB is perfectly justified as well.

I agree.

The only thing I find complicated is the "decision to CTB" part.
I keep wondering what counts as a valid "decision".
You know, in countries with euthanasia they require that it be a "rational choice". That means you can't be in a psychotic crisis while expressing your wish for euthanasia, but you need to express your wish with a clear mind.

I guess this is a very complicated topic in itself. I think everyone should have the freedom to decide by themself, with the exception of people in severe mental distress, as they may be unable to make a proper "decision". But what counts as "severe mental distress" is ultimately up to Psychiatry to interpret.

Also, I like your profile picture. I like Shinji.

 

[Captive_Mind515]

Yes, as someone who views life as a very harmful game with no objective purpose... I could never promote it with honesty as being a good choice. I would be lying essentially, based on my own philosophy.

That being said, it is still a personal choice. So I don't get in the way of someone's right to make that choice for their own existence.

Even in cases where someone dies in tragic circumstances or when they didn't really want to... (or might have "recovered" etc) I never feel sad about it. I still view it as them being fortunate to not exist anymore and they cannot miss out on anything in this life. They are perfectly free and safe from harm. It's pretty much the same way I view anti-natalism - even if we could choose to come into existence, we are all better off by not being born because we will be safe from anything bad happening to us.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

living accumulates more suffering

then there's always the risk of falling into some trap of unending constant unbearable pain or something extremely horrible happening . and for what for some fleeting meaningless addiction like watching a click bait video or the fleeting eating of food? both will be forgotten soon even while alive then certainly after Death

 

[bananaolympus]

They said that suicide is a permanent solution for a temporal problem so what if the problem is permanent? By that logic then suicide is completely acceptable, imo everybody should try everything at their disposal to remain alive but if their problem is just to much to carry and you just can't handle it anymore then dying is a logical conclusion

 

[Forever Sleep]

I definitely get the sense that I just don't know. Like- I hope the best for someone's future alive. I can sometimes imagine them recovering. Ultimately though- I'm not them. I don't fully know what they're up against. I don't know how much fight they have left in them. I don't know what fate has in store for them too. Like you say- things could well end up getting even worse for them.

I don't really feel guilty though- for merely suggesting ways to live. I've tended to find you get pretty strong reactions if the person has a strong opinion themselves- on whether they want to fight to live or, tread water or try to die.

Plus- why assume our advice even carries that much weight? I think most people have an idea on how they intend to proceed. I'm not convinced someone certain that suicide is their best option would be swayed by me saying they could try giving life another shot.

If they are swayed by someone else- they can't have been that certain in the first place and ultimately- they need to be the ones who are confident in that decision.

Really though- it's just words we're handing out- based upon what they've let us know about them. I imagine we've all been given off advice in the past. We can easily acknowledge that it's come from a place of care/ concern but then- decide to dismiss it.

And surely- we are the best qualified to know about our own lives and to some extent- our own prospects. Who is a better expert on your life than you? So- while another person's advice can become either a useful guide, something to make us question ourselves or, something we simply dismiss- it's down to us ultimately.

Again- I'm not so sure you can convince someone who has a very strong will to either live or die- to choose the opposite. And- I think the will to die needs to be strong and thoroughly thought through for it to be logical. If someone starts having doubts about it- it can't have been entirely logical to begin with.

Ultimately though I suppose- both are based on unknowns. We can't know that life will eventually work out. We can't know that a suicide attempt will be succesful. We don't even know what happens after death. It's all uncertainties really. It has to be down to the individual to chance their luck on a decision in the end.

 

[tooafraidtodiez]

At first i will definitely encourage someone to keep going, as we don't know how painful CTB can be. And believe it or not, some of the reasons people want to CTB can be fixed/treated. But everything depends on the circumstance, that's why i don't tell people that things'll get better etc.
Am i guilty for telling people to be alive. No, because i don't know how painful each method can be and i don't know what's the problem they're having. Maybe it's temporary maybe it can be fixed, maybe it's permanent and it can't be fixed, no one knows.
Is it wrong to take options away from people who need to CTB, like reporting sources etc. In my opinion Yes. We don't know what their conditions are therefore we can't say that living is better for them.
Is suicide always the solution. Generally speaking, No. If that were to happen i believe society would kind of crumble due to lack of human resources. Do i agree with what the government is doing to stop suicide. No, it's excessive and clearly the end goal is not to prevent impulsive suicide but more about making profit and following the "moral" values.
What should we do to help society without invalidating other's problem? We can look or ask about their problem and if we think that they are not at the state of physical or financial suffering, we can/should direct them to get help so they can contribute to society and doesn't have to experience unnecessary pain. But we also shouldn't take the option of suicide away from those who really needed it. How to know if someone needs it or not? We don't know we can only offer them words of encouragement and advice, we are not magical being who can decide who should or shouldn't CTB. But we should try to prevent unnecessary suffering if possible.
Just be careful in giving method/advice since CTB is irreversible. If possible before giving CTB instructions, ask why the person wants to CTB.

 

[Aknu132]

They said that suicide is a permanent solution for a temporal problem so what if the problem is permanent? By that logic then suicide is completely acceptable,

I don't see a problem even if the problem is temporary, you can't regret after death, if they find all the cure of my problems right after i die, there's no problem, i won't be here to feel regret about it.

imo everybody should try everything at their disposal to remain alive but if their problem is just to much to carry and you just can't handle it anymore then dying is a logical conclusion

The problem is that there's always something to try, but keep trying can make you suffer so much more, and there will be no guarantee of cure, suicide is 100% guaranteed to end suffering. I've been trying hard since 16 with no results, only accumulating suffering, and there's other thing to try too, the thing is, looking back if i have CTB the problem would be already solved and i wouldn't not have suffer more. It's hard not to just kinda praise suicide. And like i said if my problem have a solution but I'd already CTB, it doesn't matter, the dead can't regret.