Is suicide a natural evolutionary instinct?

[ggetout33]

Like, is suicidality just your brain knowing it's absolutely screwed up beyond any reasonable repair, knowing it's not fit for survival so opts to take itself out of the equation?

 

[locked*n*loaded]

So, in essence, it boils down to nature vs. nurture? Mark me down for believing that nurture is the cause.

 

[nureinFuchs]

by the way our society is going I'll not be surprised if your thread is true

 

[Hikikomori1]

Pretty much.

 

[tfnb]

I read that there's a theory that suicide is a mechanism to cut out negative traits from the pool of genes being passed on, but it's also likely that those people just want to feel comfortable with the fact that suicide is so prevalent in humans. I think it's just a consequence of being self aware, and realizing that life is suffering and being smart enough to not be living under the illusion of happiness lasting

 

[Forever Sleep]

That's an interesting idea. I've wondered before if it wasn't for the 'greater good' type thing seeing as this planet is already over populated.

Personally, I think that- while part of our primal brain is still connected to nature (we have to fight that natural instinct to survive in order to CTB) our thinking brains aren't actually that 'natural' anymore. I'd say- humans aren't entirely natural now.

Now that bare survival is easier for those of us born in first world countries- we devote more of our thinking to other things. Our identities- revolving around who we think we are and who we want to be. I think these are cultural phenomenon rather than natural though. I doubt animals become suicidal because they aren't as good at certain things than other animals. I doubt they become suicidal because they can't get a partner or because they think they were born the wrong sex. Animals just seem to get on with life- no matter how bad their lot in life is. If they're truly that unfortunate- they tend to get killed and eaten. Humans just ruminate about everything.

We certainly don't follow nature's laws either. As a society- we try to promote equality. What in nature would be called natural selection, we would call eugenics and frown upon it. Some people choose not to have children. Plus- we knowingly pollute and destroy the very planet our lives depend on. I suppose I see suicide as just another way in which we break away from our natural roots.

I wonder if it comes down to sentience. It's not to say animals aren't sentient- or to diminish their emotional capacity. Are they sentient in the same way that we are though? Do they REALLY contemplate their own deaths? Some animals certainly seem to recognise death but do they REALLY think it's going to happen to them? Do they realise that they can do it to themselves? I'd say- probably not in the same way we do. I think because- they are still more tied to their natural instinct to survive.

I guess we have evolved to be like this- so- in that sense- it has to be a natural occurence. You have to wonder what we're evolving in to though!

It's sort of depressing (to me) in a way. The majority of people on this site seem like sensitive, kind, empathetic people who have had rotten experiences. If what you say is true- and I think it very well might be- does that not mean that this world favours cold hearted sociopaths for survival?!! I have a horrible feeling it does...

 

[Valky]

@Forever Sleep some animals do kill themselves sometimes, I really wonder why..

 

[Twiceler]

It's very disputable.

Firstly, it always appeals to fear of death and gene reproduction urge. It is very personal. But collective fear is something more cultural rather than biological, and so more chaotic (religions and cults, for example), and it gained from other people, not from birth (It's very important). So it's hard to determine (if even possible).

Secondly, No matter what traits you have - if the humanity is in danger and you share that collective fear - you most probably won't ctb, and it doesn't matter the population size (christians always fear of apocalypse btw).

 

[Forever Sleep]

@Forever Sleep some animals do kill themselves sometimes, I really wonder why..

I think it's mostly animals in captivity that have been known to (no wonder.) Do you know of many instances of wild animals suiciding?

I guess some in the wild do in order to protect their young- or- give their young the best chance of survival. I'm not sure how many wild animals kill themselves out of despair. It actually surprises me that more don't kill themselves deliberately... Can you imagine how hard it would be to survive in the wild- when humans have obliterated so much of their habitat?

 

[Little_Suzy]

This is why I believe everyone should have the freedom to die on their own terms. It's a case of survival of the fittest. If you don't want to be here, you can go whenever you choose.

In the end, if you don't pick, someone/something else will. Death is a natural part of life's cycle.

 

[enviro400mmc]

I hate to say this but I'm pretty sure the answer to this is a resounding no.

Indeed not wanting to CTB is evolutionary instinct because natural selection by definition will never choose dead people... There's a reason we talk a lot about SI on this forum - that is humans' evolutionary instinct to stay alive. That's why we live in a world which is so disparaging towards people who want to end their life.

 

[tfnb]

Apoptosis is a biological function in which the cells self kill to conserve and reuse resources, or because the cell is damaged beyond repair, or because certain viruses activate it. Natural selection states that those most fit to survive will. That doesnt state anything about specific traits that survive and there's a good argument to be made that people who ctb are less fit

 

[whitherrvbound]

Humans have evolved past natural selection or much resistant against natural laws . Not completely ofc but some of us dont buy the ''surivival is a must'' crap that the greatest bitch of em all ,mother nature ,dictates to us anymore such as myself.

Apoptosis is a biological function in which the cells self kill to conserve and reuse resources, or because the cell is damaged beyond repair, or because certain viruses activate it. Natural selection states that those most fit to survive will. That doesnt state anything about specific traits that survive and there's a good argument to be made that people who ctb are less fit

yeah but no, natural selection is mainly based upon physical competence and most people who want to ctb do it cause of psychological reasons and those psychological reasons are mostly caused by non-natural societal lifestyle (ptsd,depression,anxiety etc.)

 

[MeltingBrain]

Like, is suicidality just your brain knowing it's absolutely screwed up beyond any reasonable repair, knowing it's not fit for survival so opts to take itself out of the equation?

As an armchair evolutionist, It seems to be an acquired instinct. Animals just want to survive from moment to moment no matter what, which is the natural order of things. Humans have certain threshold for pain and certain expectations. If pain goes beyond the threshold or expectations are not met we will start feeling suicidal.

That being said the reason why we have acquired this instinct itself must have evolutionary roots (at least partially). Someone wants to CTB because they don't have a good partner, glamorous job, feel like a burden etc . Why do we put weight-age to these concepts ? A good partner increases the chance for a brighter future for the offspring , A glamorous job is a status signal for being more competent which is a signal for finding a better partner and for being able to provide for your offsprings and the community , people feel like a burden because they think they are not able to "hunt" for resources themselves thereby not being able to provide for their offspring .

 

[outrider567]

With changing circumstances, CTB seems like a natural path for me

 

[Homo erectus]

Suicide is an evolutionary good thing. It saves resources from no longer useful individuals, e.g. after copulation in some animals. Suppression of suicide is bad and wastes resources. But the modern world has a surplus of resources. High carb grains from farming make megacities possible and mass exploitation of human power easier. The rise of some superpowers, technological advancement, mass expansions in population and territory were related to improvement in farming. It has become very easy to keep people alive meaningless. The ruling elites probably feel good to control many people's lives and deaths. Then bullshit jobs arise to keep people busy so they don't cause trouble to affect their control. Conclusion: anti-suicide has some benefits to the ruling class at the suffering of many ordinary people. It's bad use of resources.

 

[Valky]

I think it's mostly animals in captivity that have been known to (no wonder.) Do you know of many instances of wild animals suiciding?

I know that dolphins for example will bang their head against rocks in order to kill themselves (mostly done in captivity I think tho)

There are also instances where animals came in contact with the so called Suicide plant (Gympie) which supposedly feels like 'being burnt with hot acid and electrocuted at the same time'. The effect can last from days to months. Therefore, they panicked and purposely killed themselves by running off cliffs.

I guess some in the wild do in order to protect their young- or- give their young the best chance of survival. I'm not sure how many wild animals kill themselves out of despair. It actually surprises me that more don't kill themselves deliberately... Can you imagine how hard it would be to survive in the wild- when humans have obliterated so much of their habitat?

Well, if they get too old and/or sick, the others will leave that animal behind to die :/
Humans definitely are a curse

 

[90starve]

I read that there's a theory that suicide is a mechanism to cut out negative traits from the pool of genes being passed on, but it's also likely that those people just want to feel comfortable with the fact that suicide is so prevalent in humans. I think it's just a consequence of being self aware, and realizing that life is suffering and being smart enough to not be living under the illusion of happiness lasting

i think you outlined this perfectly :)

 

[FuneralCry]

The reality is that human beings are programmed to survive, it's the way that we've evolved which is a reason as to why suicide is so difficult in this world, but I certainly think it's perfectly logical wishing to finally cease existing, in fact suicide is the most rational thing to wish for as to take control over our inevitable fate is the only way to prevent unnecessary suffering and to die solves what the true problem is which is existence in itself.

I certainly have awareness that existence is something so meaningless and futile, there's nothing to be gained from this useless process of slowly dying, existing is just harmful and filled with risks, but of course even if someone is fully aware of all this the survival instinct can make it difficult to ctb, potentially making someone back out of an attempt, it's an instinct which is seperate from our conscious thoughts.

 

[ggetout33]

As an armchair evolutionist, It seems to be an acquired instinct. Animals just want to survive from moment to moment no matter what, which is the natural order of things. Humans have certain threshold for pain and certain expectations. If pain goes beyond the threshold or expectations are not met we will start feeling suicidal.

That being said the reason why we have acquired this instinct itself must have evolutionary roots (at least partially). Someone wants to CTB because they don't have a good partner, glamorous job, feel like a burden etc . Why do we put weight-age to these concepts ? A good partner increases the chance for a brighter future for the offspring , A glamorous job is a status signal for being more competent which is a signal for finding a better partner and for being able to provide for your offsprings and the community , people feel like a burden because they think they are not able to "hunt" for resources themselves thereby not being able to provide for their offspring .

I don't really care for offspring. Being autistic and ADHD (and a few other really awful things that run in my family) I decided as a teenager that me having kids would just taint their blood with my mental illnesses and I would be setting them up for a hard, merciless life of being an outcast from society. Probably even worse than mine.

It wouldn't be worth it even if I had a neurotypical genetically gifted girlfriend try to change my mind.

Although I would like a girlfriend and a well-paying job that would improve my wellbeing, being neurodiverse bars me from both of those things. So, I really don't see a point.

 

[Gonnerr]

It's better to choose your moment, i think suicide is a gift that most animal doesn't have. Do you really want to let your body decay for years in suffering before dying that's why human are intelligent enough to commit suicide when its time. Our time. Not nature time.