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K

KN95

Member
Apr 13, 2019
63
People who utter those words are extremely ignorant about suicide and mental illness. It's the sort of phrase morons use because they've heard some other moron say it, instead of thinking about thoroughly and reasonably.

Is it just me or are most people emotionless robots? Why is so hard for some people to imagine an emotional state that is so unbearable that ceasing to exist seems the better option.
 
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EddieAllenPoe

EddieAllenPoe

Specialist
Mar 19, 2019
304
I agree with this... it depends...

It depends, if one has serious obligations like children or taking care of a family member then I would say yes it is the cowards way out. Or if one is perfectly fine, and young then I would say that it's the cowards way out. But most of the time I don't think the word coward does justice to what actually happened.

There are some cases of suicide where the person is clearly driven by pain. It makes a lot of sense they would do it because they were driven to do it. I can sympathize with them because it would seem they had no better solution.

But I've also seen some cases of suicide that seemed absolutely moronic to me. I'm actually thinking of one in particular where the person seemed to have a perfect life and they did it simply because they were bored. No pain at all. They were just bored. I don't really consider that to be brave or courageous. I thought it was disgusting. If this person had children, I would have considered it to be even more disgusting.

It does take some balls to kill yourself. I'm not denying that. But it also takes some balls to not kill yourself. Because life is scary as fuck. It's not always fun facing it. It seems like it's always threatening to throw some crazy shit at you around every corner. Old age, mental illness, poverty, cancer, war... I wish I could believe suicide was always brave or courageous. It's not. It depends.
 
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J

Jean Améry

Enlightened
Mar 17, 2019
1,098
I agree with this... it depends...



There are some cases of suicide where the person is clearly driven by pain. It makes a lot of sense they would do it because they were driven to do it. I can sympathize with them because it would seem they had no better solution.

But I've also seen some cases of suicide that seemed absolutely moronic to me. I'm actually thinking of one in particular where the person seemed to have a perfect life and they did it simply because they were bored. No pain at all. They were just bored. I don't really consider that to be brave or courageous. I thought it was disgusting. If this person had children, I would have considered it to be even more disgusting.

It does take some balls to kill yourself. I'm not denying that. But it also takes some balls to not kill yourself. Because life is scary as fuck. It's not always fun facing it. It seems like it's always threatening to throw some crazy shit at you around every corner. Old age, mental illness, poverty, cancer, war... I wish I could believe suicide was always brave or courageous. It's not. It depends.

Existential boredom is a form of pain. It means nothing matters anymore. This individual probably suffered from a form of existential depression yet you think suicide in this case was 'disgusting' and 'moronic'... Since you cannot possibly know what life was like for that person it's pretty arrogant to think you are entitled to pronounce judgement. Or are able to do so with any degree of accuracy.

Ironically you judge that person the way others will judge you.

You contradict yourself: first you say suicide takes courage then you claim suicides you dissaprove of aren't brave/courageous.

Life is often difficult and it takes a certain kind of courage to do certain things (although life itself is automatic: aslong as one doesn't take drastic action one will keep breathing) but it has no bearing on suicide being a courageous act. No matter how one morally evaluates the circumstances and the decision.
 
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EddieAllenPoe

EddieAllenPoe

Specialist
Mar 19, 2019
304
Existential boredom is a form of pain. It means nothing matters anymore. This individual probably suffered from a form of existential depression yet you think suicide in this case was 'disgusting' and 'moronic'... Since you cannot possibly know what life was like for that person it's pretty arrogant to think you are entitled to pronounce judgement. Or are able to do so with any degree of accuracy.

Ironically you judge that person the way others will judge you.

You contradict yourself: first you say suicide takes courage then you claim suicides you dissaprove of aren't brave/courageous.

Life is often difficult and it takes a certain kind of courage to do certain things (although life itself is automatic: aslong as one doesn't take drastic action one will keep breathing) but it has no bearing on suicide being a courageous act. No matter how one morally evaluates the circumstances and the decision.

No. I can know how life was for this person. Kind of hasty on your part to assume I couldn't. If you really need to know, they wrote a detailed suicide note. They gave me everything they wanted me to know. They actually made certain to mention it wasn't because they were unhappy or depressed. They said everything was great. They just wanted to die because they were bored. Am I going to judge them for that? Yes. Do you really think I have to blindly believe every suicide is right? Who are you to tell me what to feel or think?

Do you know why I make moral judgements? Because I'm not a brainless, heartless machine that feels compelled to automatically accept every choice as being right. I would want somebody with half a brain and a heart to do the same for me. It means they care. It means I'm not alone. Just because I CAN do something doesn't mean I should. It also does not mean that I should expect everyone else to agree with my behavior either. That's not freedom, that's's mental slavery.

Believing in freedom of choice does not automatically mean human life is as valuable as dirt. Some people have legitimate reasons for suicide. Not everyone. Thus not all choices are automatically brave or courageous. Sometimes it's actually moronic and absurd. Are you incapable of seeing how this could be? I don't think you can. Simply accusing me of being wrong for having feelings and opinions about others tells me you don't know what it's like to care about anyone.
 
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Lost

Member
Apr 18, 2018
88
I don't think so. It's not easy and the survival instinct is to overcome. Ppl just say it's selfish and cowardly so they don't have to deal with it and don't feel guilty
 
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Jean Améry

Enlightened
Mar 17, 2019
1,098
No. I can know how life was for this person. Kind of hasty on your part to assume I couldn't. If you really need to know, they wrote a detailed suicide note. They gave me everything they wanted me to know. They actually made certain to mention it wasn't because they were unhappy or depressed. They said everything was great. They just wanted to die because they were bored. Am I going to judge them for that? Yes. Do you really think I have to blindly believe every suicide is right? Who are you to tell me what to feel or think?

Do you know why I make moral judgements? Because I'm not a brainless, heartless machine that feels compelled to automatically accept every choice as being right. I would want somebody with half a brain and a heart to do the same for me. It means they care. It means I'm not alone. Just because I CAN do something doesn't mean I should. It also does not mean that I should expect everyone else to agree with my behavior either. That's not freedom, that's's mental slavery.

Believing in freedom of choice does not automatically mean human life is as valuable as dirt. Some people have legitimate reasons for suicide. Not everyone. Thus not all choices are automatically brave or courageous. Sometimes it's actually moronic and absurd. Are you incapable of seeing how this could be? I don't think you can. Simply accusing me of being wrong for having feelings and opinions about others tells me you don't know what it's like to care about anyone.

Unless you acquired the magical ability to live in someone-else's mind you cannot possibly make that claim. You can't know what life was like for that person because you never were him/her. The only way we can ever know others emotions is by analogy with our own which is a highly imperfect means of acquiring knowledge.

Given that it's not even possible to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that other minds exist it's pure hubris to make grand claims about another's state of mind. Especially in the case of an extreme event like suicide. Did you even talk to this person about their decision? If not all you have to back up your conclusion are words on a piece of paper. Language is highly ambiguous, especially when it comes to emotions. Not to mention language is used for many purposes beyond merely conveying information. How do you know that person was truthful? How do you know that person had clarity of mind at the moment they killed themselves or even when they wrote that note? How can you think reading a suicide note translates to a perfect understanding of the person's thoughts, feelings and experiences at the time they wrote it let alone at the time they actually died?

I don't believe for a second that garden variety boredom can ever produce suicide. Evolution has instilled in us a strong will to survive: unless that's eroded by great suffering or something went very wrong in one's brain a human-being does not decide one day to end his/her existence without a compelling reason.

Boredom is a form of unhappiness and lacking the ability to feel joy, excitement, pleasure... is a sure sign of mental distress (depression).

Making moral judgements by itself means nothing. There's nothing easier than to voice one's opinion (approval or disapproval) about others' behaviour (even toddlers do it as soon as they acquire the ability to speak) and it's certainly not proof one is a caring, thoughtful human-being. To carefully weigh one's moral opinions, to show tolerance and compassion towards others, to be humble in one's ability to know others and realize opinion does not equal knowledge: that is hard.

Moral judgements spring primarily from the ego, not reason. It's impossible to prove any moral assertion because there's nothing in nature that says any action is intrinsically good or bad. Only our feelings on the matter give events a moral meaning.

Objectively speaking it doesn't matter one iota that you are still angry with that person and speak ill of him/her as they are no longer on this earth. You seem to think you somehow deserve praise for throwing around platitudes (life is precious) and informing others of your moral views. Everybody does that all the time.

That being said nobody, I least of all, expects or compells you to accept others' decisions or refrain from pronouncing judgement on others. Which is a completely different matter btw: apparantly you think you're able to judge the legitimacy of others' motives for suicides. If that is your thing go for it but don't expect others to agree with you and refrain from pointing out wrong use of language (your continued misuse of the word courageous or its antonym when you clearly mean something else entirely) or making empirically dubious claims.

How difficult is it to understand that behaviour can be both incredibly stupid, immoral... and incredibly brave at the same time? A while back I saw a video on youtube of a young man who made a hobby out of climbing cranes without any safety equipment at all. Who can doubt overcoming the fear of heights and fear of death is incredibly brave? How many people on this earth can mentally bring themselves to do this? Yet at the same time he's risking his life for nothing more than an adrenaline rush which by most people's standards is absurd, foolish and even callous since he had a mother who cared for him.

Personally I believe in the concept of rational suicide and I acknowledge one has certain moral obligations towards others but that does not mean I think this entitles me to force my moral beliefs on others or judge someone harshly, especially not when they're in the same situation as me or died by their own hand. My opinion on them means jack shit and since I can't know how it feels to be someone-else I at least try to take this into account when expressing any opinion on the matter. 'Que sais je?' (what do/can I know?) is a wise maxim indeed.

I did not 'accuse' you of being wrong for having feelings and opinions. I critized you for making an empirical claim that is doubtful at best (your assertion you know for a fact the mental state of someone you knew who died by their own hand), confusing bravery and immorality/stupidity and making a contradictory statement (you acknowledge suicide takes courage but in cases you dissaprove of it suddenly becomes cowardly).

"Simply accusing me of being wrong for having feelings and opinions about others tells me you don't know what it's like to care about anyone."

This is what is called an ad hominem argument, simply put a personal attack. As you did throughout this thread you don't prove anything or even attempt to rationally analyze either your own views or others. Your 'moral judgements' are nothing more than emotional lashing out at anyone and anything you dissaprove of. You have no way of knowing anything of any substance about me yet you have the gall to call me cold, uncaring and heartless.

Ironically you could not be more wrong: the only reason why I'm still here is because I care about others, deeply. If I did not love my nephews, my godson and my great-aunt I would have opted for oblivion instead of lingering in this vale of tears and pain. If I did not care about others I would not have suffered the emotional trauma I suffered (which arose because I cared deeply about others) and I almost certainly would not be suicidal.

Next time try to read carefully before responding (nowhere did I say I think all suicides are rational or moral) and try to engage others' arguments instead of merely expressing your emotions in moral terms. Most of all abstain from amateur psychoanalysis of perfect strangers: that is the height of arrogance.
 
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