H

HappyForever?

Love from the deepest dream
Feb 14, 2021
325
There's the OkCupid study that shows 80% of men are physically unattractive to women. But I've also seen too many average and below average guys getting into one relationship after another, sometimes they even have girls who make the first move.
My theory is that appearance matters for men more than women, but there are too few attractive men so they have a minimal effect on the (offline) dating experiences of most men. However those who are attractive get a huge advantage, as you can see from the reactions of girls when they see an attractive guy.
I wonder if the average guy can be loved the same way as an attractive guy is. In other words, are average guys limited to a "lite" version of love that is inferior to the love that an attractive guy receives? The thought of not being able to be loved "fully" terrifies me greatly and will probably make me CTB earlier.
 
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Pluto

Pluto

Meowing to go out
Dec 27, 2020
3,862
Women generally place more of a value on how a man makes her feel rather than just appearance, though the online dating world does mess with nature a lot. Being highly attractive is great if a person values quantity over quality. But deep down, such people can be almost as lonely as you or I. The good news is that people can work on themselves and better tune into what prospective partners find attractive. But do not simply assume that they think the same way that you do.
 
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death137

death137

miserable
Jun 25, 2020
1,166
I don't believe true love exist at all. It's possible for average guy to be loved to the maximum love human are capable of providing but I believe it's rare. For the most part only very attractive men get that.
 
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Grav

Grav

Wizard
Jul 26, 2020
660
I don't fully buy into the idea of attractive people being "loved" more, maybe lusted after or sexually attracted to. I'm too old for the current dating scene so maybe it's upside down world now, but love in my experience and of others I know is much more than physical attractiveness. It's usually low on the list for love but higher for initial interest or dating. Some of the best screw-over stories of friends and others are by the attractive partner. Someone who is avg or below has to work harder to get the interest but being an ass and pretty still means you're an ass. I know guys will put up with a whole lot of BS for a hottie, I think guys overall are a lot dumber in this arena. There's a funny bit from Kids in the Hall about this.
 
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H

HappyForever?

Love from the deepest dream
Feb 14, 2021
325
I don't fully buy into the idea of attractive people being "loved" more, maybe lusted after or sexually attracted to. I'm too old for the current dating scene so maybe it's upside down world now, but love in my experience and of others I know is much more than physical attractiveness. It's usually low on the list for love but higher for initial interest or dating. Some of the best screw-over stories of friends and others are by the attractive partner. Someone who is avg or below has to work harder to get the interest but being an ass and pretty still means you're an ass. I know guys will put up with a whole lot of BS for a hottie, I think guys overall are a lot dumber in this arena. There's a funny bit from Kids in the Hall about this.
Isn't lust an essential part of romantic love?
I don't believe true love exist at all. It's possible for average guy to be loved to the maximum love human are capable of providing but I believe it's rare. For the most part only very attractive men get that.
Enough motivation for today.
 
Sherri

Sherri

Archangel
Sep 28, 2020
13,794
Women generally place more of a value on how a man makes her feel rather than just appearance, though the online dating world does mess with nature a lot. Being highly attractive is great if a person values quantity over quality. But deep down, such people can be almost as lonely as you or I. The good news is that people can work on themselves and better tune into what prospective partners find attractive. But do not simply assume that they think the same way that you do.
Great answer, that was what I was going to write in other words. It's very true its not about the appearance but the inside that counts.
 
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H

HappyForever?

Love from the deepest dream
Feb 14, 2021
325
I don't fully buy into the idea of attractive people being "loved" more, maybe lusted after or sexually attracted to. I'm too old for the current dating scene so maybe it's upside down world now, but love in my experience and of others I know is much more than physical attractiveness. It's usually low on the list for love but higher for initial interest or dating. Some of the best screw-over stories of friends and others are by the attractive partner. Someone who is avg or below has to work harder to get the interest but being an ass and pretty still means you're an ass. I know guys will put up with a whole lot of BS for a hottie, I think guys overall are a lot dumber in this arena. There's a funny bit from Kids in the Hall about this.
Great answer, that was what I was going to write in other words. It's very true its not about the appearance but the inside that counts.
Good to hear this. Unlike many people here I would like to recover (In my case, find a partner) instead of CTB so this is great news.
 
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Sherri

Sherri

Archangel
Sep 28, 2020
13,794
Good to hear this. Unlike many people here I would like to recover (In my case, find a partner) instead of CTB so this is great news.
I found a partner at my worse, did everything to test him, pushed him away, told him about my depression, he stood by my side. We've been together for almost 2 years now. Love certainly helps a lot. Knowing you have someone who texts you, who calls you babe, who's expecting you outside work and so on, hope you find your other half, always be yourself , in my opinion is the best way. Good luck keeping my fingers crossed for you.
 
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H

HappyForever?

Love from the deepest dream
Feb 14, 2021
325
I found a partner at my worse, did everything to test him, pushed him away, told him about my depression, he stood by my side. We've been together for almost 2 years now. Love certainly helps a lot. Knowing you have someone who texts you, who calls you babe, who's expecting you outside work and so on, hope you find your other half, always be yourself , in my opinion is the best way. Good luck keeping my fingers crossed for you.
Thank you. I hope everything goes well for you and your bf.
 
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Sherri

Sherri

Archangel
Sep 28, 2020
13,794
Thank you sweetie. Wish you the best too. :hug:
 
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Grav

Grav

Wizard
Jul 26, 2020
660
Isn't lust an essential part of romantic love?
I don't think it's an essential part. To me, love is more about wanting to be around the person not just for sex. Enjoying each other's company and wanting to do things with them and for them. Lust can be just wanting the act of sex and then "don't let the door hit you", afterwards there's no more interest. The whole "I'll call ya later" kind of thing. The 2 can go together and is probably best when you have both. Having spent my wild youth in the caring arms of the Marines I can say from my experience I've seen lust and love on full display and while they do mix they can definitely be apart, and I've seen bad breakups due to each person having a different aim, one just for lust and the other thinking love.
 
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lear

lear

Member
Jan 2, 2022
33
Saying that an average man can only get a 'lite' version of love is just incorrect. An attractive person will undoubtedly get more attention on a dating app (as the first impression is made solely on appearance), but that only counts for the initial stage and nothing after.

I imagine that you're conflating lust and sex with love, which are different things. Sharing interests, hobbies, and time with someone is what builds long-lasting love, not simply being attractive.

If you had the most attractive person in the world next to you, would you really say you loved them if it felt like a chore to have a conversation?
 
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DanceUntilTheEnd

DanceUntilTheEnd

Member
Dec 10, 2021
8
There's the OkCupid study that shows 80% of men are physically unattractive to women. But I've also seen too many average and below average guys getting into one relationship after another, sometimes they even have girls who make the first move.
My theory is that appearance matters for men more than women, but there are too few attractive men so they have a minimal effect on the (offline) dating experiences of most men. However those who are attractive get a huge advantage, as you can see from the reactions of girls when they see an attractive guy.
I wonder if the average guy can be loved the same way as an attractive guy is. In other words, are average guys limited to a "lite" version of love that is inferior to the love that an attractive guy receives? The thought of not being able to be loved "fully" terrifies me greatly and will probably make me CTB earlier.
I'm 40 yrs old. I met my husband at 22. I was not attracted to him at all. And was actually disappointed about this particular date set up. But we went on the date. (I didn't want to be rude.) And we got married a year later. We have been married for 17 years. I love him and we have a great marriage. He's the reason I'm still here. I promised him I'd try. I had planned to CTB next month. He found out about all my plans and we talked through a lot of things and I told him I'd try a few things and that I'd be patient for a little longer. I still don't think he's "hot" but he's not hideous either. I just don't find him super attractive. But that's doesn't stop us from having an amazing relationship. When girls fall in love, they find attraction. And sometimes average guys are easier to fall in love with cuz they're low maintenence and down to earth. My husband will still tell you he thought I was way out of his league when we met. And I had dated many hot guys. They were cocky and annoying. Totally full of themselves and ridiculous to get to know. My husband was the biggest southern gentleman with the biggest heart and acted like he worshipped the ground I walked on. It was actually so hard to get used to and felt silly. But he is my actual sunshine and the reason I'm still here. So in short, yes, average or below average guys can have amazing relationships. Just got to find the right ones. I feel bad for wanting to end things. Especially because I didn't have mental health problems prior to us getting married. I got major PTSD from some stuff that happened and haven't been able to get it under control. I'm not the girl he married nearly 20 yrs ago but I'm trying to find myself again. I gave it 6 months to try new things and hopefully see progress.
 
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Blondi

Blondi

Iš Lietuvos
Feb 2, 2021
168
Probably , I know a 6'8 guy with a horrible personality who has tons of girlfriends.
 
H

HappyForever?

Love from the deepest dream
Feb 14, 2021
325
Probably , I know a 6'8 guy with a horrible personality who has tons of girlfriends.
I also know a 5'9 guy who (IMO) is less attractive than me who has had 3 girlfriends in high school. A single anecdote means nothing.
 
absoluteanimal1

absoluteanimal1

Death by chocolate
Dec 17, 2021
941
Looks aren't important to me, it is all about personality. I'll take a funny, charming, unattractive man over an attractive boring guy any day of the week. I think a lot of women feel the same way.
 
Blondi

Blondi

Iš Lietuvos
Feb 2, 2021
168
You would take a first guy over a second guy just because of humour?
1643388222000
1643388380461
 
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thinkkank

thinkkank

Experienced
Oct 16, 2019
247
it's been over for a while
 
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Foresight

Foresight

Enlightened
Jun 14, 2019
1,397
Attraction for men and women works differently. Average looks will not knock a man out of the dating pool. Bad looks might, but I mean bad looks at the end of the spectrum. If you make her feel special, provide some stability, show her that you can be romantic and thoughtful, etc. you'll be fine.

@Blondi Those two men would not be vying for the same women. If you're average find an average women you think is cute. The first guy wouldn't get the hottest woman in the world, but he could get a cutesy nerd with the right attitude. Honestly if the first guy got his teeth aligned and whitened he would be average.
 
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Foresight

Foresight

Enlightened
Jun 14, 2019
1,397
Why would that "cutesy nerd" choose an unattractive guy when she can get a hot guy?
Good looking guy can also have good personality.
Why do you think the guy would choose an average woman when he is in the market for highly attractive women? Men care more about looks than women do. The model guy wouldn't be vying for the same women, they're not in direct competition. There's plenty of average women for average men. Average women are not as desirable to highly attractive men.
 
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Blondi

Blondi

Iš Lietuvos
Feb 2, 2021
168
Angst Filled Fuck Up

Angst Filled Fuck Up

Visionary
Sep 9, 2018
2,923
Just find yourself an average woman, then. It's about relatability. Connecting with someone on your own wavelength, who you've had similar experiences to. Most couples are about equal in the looks department. How would anyone get married or have kids if that weren't the case?

I don't get these threads. Acting like every woman will only date Ryan Gosling or some shit. Ridiculous.
 
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Sanva

Sanva

:/
Dec 10, 2021
261
a lot of people are very superficial. however, I don't think it's helpful to divide people into average/hot whatever. of course there's people who are conventionally attractive and people who aren't. but personally, I've been very attracted to guys that don't fit the conventionally attractive stereotypes at all. it really makes a difference how confident someone is and just how their personality is. i mean, think about it. you probably know a bunch of people who aren't super hot and are still in loving relationships. of course there's going to be a lot of girls who just go for the most conventionally attractive guy. But not all women are the same, we don't all think the same and are attracted to the same guys. i genuinely think some men don't realize this.

imo when you think like this it's usually not really because of your looks but because you have underlying self esteem issues. I used to have really bad acne, I thought all my problems would be solved when it went away. It's gone now and I still hate myself.
 
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Dr Iron Arc

Dr Iron Arc

Into the Unknown
Feb 10, 2020
20,711
You think that's bad, try being below average in terms of both physical AND mental attractiveness. :tongue:
 
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Foresight

Foresight

Enlightened
Jun 14, 2019
1,397
I personally don't even care about confidence per se. I care about sweetness, soulfulness, thoughtfulness. I care about being able to have a conversation about various things and sharing values. I like when someone cares to hear my thoughts. I care about how much affection you give me and how much you let me give. Be shy, be unsure of yourself, we can connect and grow as time goes by and comfort increases.

I don't think most grown women like to be someone's mom. Men with no drive at all will have the toughest time dating. There's something masculine about a certain level of self-sufficiency and facing the day head on even when it's hard. I suppose that falls under confidence. If people are attracted to masculine features then they'll appreciate that. The way you act and the way you treat others definitely factors into attractiveness.
 
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LastFlowers

LastFlowers

the haru that can read
Apr 27, 2019
2,170
There's the OkCupid study that shows 80% of men are physically unattractive to women. But I've also seen too many average and below average guys getting into one relationship after another, sometimes they even have girls who make the first move.
My theory is that appearance matters for men more than women, but there are too few attractive men so they have a minimal effect on the (offline) dating experiences of most men. However those who are attractive get a huge advantage, as you can see from the reactions of girls when they see an attractive guy.
I wonder if the average guy can be loved the same way as an attractive guy is. In other words, are average guys limited to a "lite" version of love that is inferior to the love that an attractive guy receives? The thought of not being able to be loved "fully" terrifies me greatly and will probably make me CTB earlier.
It's on a spectrum, appearance can be a significant privilege if desirable and a disadvantage if the opposite (in far more areas than just romantic endeavors), or anything in-between.
Think of it like wealth, you could land anywhere from filthy rich to below the poverty line, and you will enjoy (or suffer) the benefits or consequences that come with that.

However I really don't understand the need to say such things as "appearance matters for men more than women"..I mean, surely you must be joking.
Do we inhabit the same planet?
Unless you are saying that men care more about a woman's appearance than a woman cares about a man's..?
(Am I misinterpreting you? Apologies if so.)
If you mean what I originally thought, I have to say that is completely and demonstrably false.

Men and women can be and ARE superficial toward one another (and each other), though let's be honest..as far as couples go, how often do we see an attractive woman on the arm of a man who is not so attractive? And how often do we see the reverse?
The latter is far less common, however even though women (who are almost always reduced-first and foremost-to how they look, even if successful in other areas) leave a little more wiggle room for some men to appear "attractive" in other ways besides their appearance ($$, stability, sense of humor, etc) they still employ quite shallow means of assessing their date's "value".
In other words, if the man is not so physically attractive, the woman will be looking for a high amount of compensatory factors, which I also think is unfair.
(Unless the man is like most and insists on physical beauty in his mate, in that case there is no room to complain, whether he is unattractive or not..it's hypocrisy.
At the same time, the whole idea of "leagues" based on looks and other surface level or unearned factors also disgusts me, I think it's a ridiculous concept.)
This goes for same-sex relationships as well, looks are always a HUGE factor, and if they're less so, then more "catching up" in other areas is expected..which can be exhausting for the individual it is expected from.
I can expand on some exceptions (which are usually rife with abuse and purposeful power imbalances to inflate the ego of one partner, but this is already going to be a lengthy reply).

With social media, the "just swipe" dating apps and picture-centric online dating, this universal constant of hollow leanings becomes a trend that is enhanced and heightened exponentially, there is very little room to sell yourself via personality (any little profile blurbs are usually ignored anyhow..as long as you're not a raging psychopath, your looks will be what get your foot in the door, and you won't have to do much to stay past the threshold once you reach that stage).
In-person and "natural" instances of meeting someone and pursuing them are not much better, but at least there is a little more room to grace someone with the "who" rather than the "what" in those cases, (although the chance to do so is still usually only given to those who are 'easy on the eyes').

Both unattractive men and women have it rough and are often the throwaway joke and shitty punchline in casual conversation and pretty much everywhere else.
I empathize with both genders who have to endure being trapped in a bonafide flesh prison that suffocates their very existence (and condemns them to being seen as "less than"), a weakness that cannot be hidden, but the "one gender has it worse than the other" additive that is constantly thrown into the mix of this flavor of conversation just brings the topic down into the gutters.

Both suffer, being unattractive is bad news for everybody-man, woman, (biological or transitioning), gay or straight, this race or that race- to me none of their predicaments look any more appealing than the other when it comes to this.
Hell, even those considered "androgynous" can fall into one of two categories (good looking or unfortunate looking), and again, they will benefit from the former and suffer from the latter.
It's a sad affair.
We should offer sympathy and understanding to all of them.

And excuse my language and wording on this subject, I feel like it sounds as if I'm agreeing with how society and individuals operate in this way, when I absolutely do not.
I acknowledge the reality (try not to mince words) but choose not to personally perpetuate it, even if I desire and need to be comfortable in my own skin (as most humans do in order to thrive and express themselves), I make a conscious effort to never devalue someone (or close the figurative door on them) because of an exterior they had little to no say in, I also make it a point to stay away from sycophantic groveling in the presence of those who are attractive (which many others partake in, some don't even realize they're doing it half the time).
This requires a level of honesty with one's self that most are not willing to entertain, you (as in anyone) have to realize how you contribute to the problem, both overtly and covertly, whether it be blatant harassment/insults or more hidden disparities in how we treat and see one group versus the other.
Of course, my rejection of the status quo is not to say I see it all as irrelevant, I think landing one way or the other has a massive effect on where we end up in life, for better or worse..looks are damning.

All in all I think it's one of the most vile yet trite (in the manner that it should be considered of little import, yet isn't) aspects of humanity that most people just don't care to adapt themselves out of, especially when they are of the type it hardly affects/#blessed.
It's just another way human beings are set up to fail (or prosper), where which side we fall on is hardly ever in our control, yet we are severely punished or handsomely rewarded for it.

As for the worry about how much "love" you will receive based on appearances, some may find that question amusing but it actually has credence, leading to a fair point to be made.
Certainly the differences in how we are treated based on our appearance do not stop once we get into a relationship.
A lot of people like tossing around platitudes like "the grass isn't greener on the other side" or "But the beautiful people don't know who really loves them for them!", but it's nothing but a crock of shit (which I have expanded on in replies to similar posts, and will not be going as in depth about here).

The short of it is, the eyes wander..as an average (or sometimes even unattractive person), you may find luck in "love" (depending on how you define it) but may have to worry a little more (or far more) about just how long a partner will go without defaulting to a more animalistic and hierarchical approach to seeking and valuing a companion.
It's possible this could go the other way and someone could wipe the rosy tint from their eyes and realize that their Adonis or Aphrodite is a boring or shitty/incompatible SO, and leave to find someone who is slightly less attractive (but most likely still within the objective range of pleasant looking) but with a better head on their shoulders and values in their heart (still, like I said though, looks are almost never irrelevant..that's the problem).

Also, it's not exactly that people will only EVER (forever and always, on every count) see someone as strict assumptions and judgments surrounding their face and body, but rather which frame they prefer to peer through to begin with.
A physically beautiful person will receive countless admirers and opportunities to be SEEN and HEARD because they already have the world's attention, they flourish via the halo effect, and it can sometimes become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
They have more options and more people willing to find out what's behind that pretty face, more people willing to put up with the less satisfactory traits because the package they came in is nice enough to concede that the imperfections are just part of the "charm" (even if they're not).
Meanwhile unattractive (and even some average) people are not afforded this type of leniency and freedom to be themselves unabashedly, and so being "loved" can mean that stronger conditions and ultimatums are in place. So in this way, I can see why one would assert that they are receiving a less complete and generous "love" than their attractive counterparts. There is truth to that notion, as much as I hate to say it.


*I haven't slept in 48 hours so forgive me for any rambling and tangents that may need more fleshing out, I always tell myself I need to stop replying to topics like these but honestly I am far too invested (against my will) in the matter, it means a great deal to me that it is taken seriously because otherwise decent and worthwhile people are being destroyed over not only the superficiality itself, but the lack of compassion for its victims and the lack of a corrective response from society.
 
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Grav

Grav

Wizard
Jul 26, 2020
660
As an example of "looks gets more" not being all there is, look at old couples. There has to be more than looks as we age or you start looking for trophy wives/husbands and the 80yr old guy with the 20yr old hottie. You can have that relationship but I doubt "true love" is the basis of it. As others pointed out confidence plays a big part and that's hard to do with issues that may be manifested. I know I was a turtle and avg, but I had girlfriends (who came after me) in high school. Military service after school shot the confidence level up and growing into a "don't give a fuck what you think" attitude has made things easier (anxiety, being shy, etc). It's not a cure for everyone but a mumbly-joe, afraid to look up posture sends some bad signals. Glad I'm not dating in this world, it seems so much more superficial than any other time. Hearing how elderly people met is like listening to someone describe the moon men compared to what I see.
 
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Grav

Grav

Wizard
Jul 26, 2020
660
I hate to say it, and people feel free to throw popcorn at me, but I've been around the sun enough times to figure out you have to just be you. Work with what you have and if you want to, improve on things you can, that's about all you can do. Putting up a front just gets found out and ends bad. It sounds so weak with all the issues people contemplating ctb have but it seems to be the easiest of the paths. Some people fall only for blonde, blue-eyed hotties and if you're not either of those not much is going to change that.
 
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