Discussion Is it irrational to commit suicide due to nationality i.e. 2nd or 3rd world country such as China. Why or Why not?

[All washed up]

This a conversation that can run and run and everyone will have a different viewpoint.
As op and woxihuanni as not from what are considered 1st world countries it's easier for them to answer.
After all the question is about whether it's more rational to suicide if you're from a 2/3 world country, I'm not so voted don't know.
As I stated earlier China must be very tough mentally due to the surveillance and the 1 child policy probably means that despite there being a lot of people there are probably a hell of a lot of lonely/depressed people especially as there's a male female imbalance in the population and like op says there's lack of opportunity

 

[woxihuanni]

Hold your horses @woxihuanni ,
I actually live, voluntarily, in a third world country and i personally know people that married well , had kids , the whole shebang, and live with less than 250 euros a month. Never in their lifes they would entertain serious suicidal thoughs. I call that happiness.

Not to say poverty it's not soul destroying. It is.

In India its not uncommon for whole families to suicide toguether, because finantial worries, and what about the working poor struggles in good ole USA, or the silent despair of the french working class?

And then , there's worse, semi failed states struggling with water and electricity shortages or civil war conflicts that push millions to flee.

Differents levels in Hell.

The world is just a disgrace, a global slave system, without hardly any upward mobility. You are born a slave and you die one , and in a slave system there are lower and high ones, that lead more comfy lifes. But that's about it.

Is emigrating to a richer country cure one's suicidal thoughts? No, but there are free psychologists , decent psych wards and disabilty pensions. And that's where the good stuff stops , before you are back to the start:
finding a reason to live, whether it's family, close knit friendships, or a meaningful career/hobby,,.

if you have nothing of those, does dying alone, swimming in your own shit, in some first world's elderly home, sounds any appealing ? I think not.

You completely missed my point which has nothing to do with poverty.

And yes, the relatively better comunities are now rotting as well. They spend their lives hysterically chasing things and end up exactly as you describe.

That's why I say there is nowhere to run.

 

[KleinerWolf]

" like op says there's lack of opportunity"

Never have I voted in the Chinese election.
Because it doesn't exist.

A country like that, it's best you leave.
No youtube, just pollution and brainwashing.

At least in the US you have opportunities to choose what you want to hear or surround yourself and regardless your preference, there's always something for everyone.

 

[Disappointered]

surviving in the first world without caring about social aspects

That is not something that corresponds to any reality I've ever observed or heard of. I've been around many immigrant communities and they care about social aspects as much as anyone else. They already have an identity, based in part on a string of memories, that measures their situation in a wealthy country against that past so they don't mind living in a shitty basement apt with three other people or are happy to take a job for a lower wage than people would expect in that wealthy country. They do however, care about having friends and being in a community. They are, I should add, not exactly "nonconformist". This is the reality I live in...if you say the world is different I'm not going to argue about facts I can't present documented evidence for. But I don't believe your statement is at all accurate.

 

[KleinerWolf]

That is not something that corresponds to any reality I've ever observed or heard of. I've been around many immigrant communities and they care about social aspects as much as anyone else. They already have an identity, based in part on a string of memories, that measures their situation in a wealthy country against that past so they don't mind living in a shitty basement apt with three other people or are happy to take a job for a lower wage than people would expect in that wealthy country. They do however, care about having friends and being in a community. They are, I should add, not exactly "nonconformist". This is the reality I live in...if you say the world is different I'm not going to argue about facts I can't present documented evidence for. But I don't believe your statement is at all accurate.

I guess the way they take up lower skilled jobs, less well paid positions,
is because they have no choice, as opposed to their country of origin they are probably now feeling more hopeful.

Having a social construct and be part of it,
that's just squeezing the last drop of what you have really.
After all it's all they got.

 

[All washed up]

I suspect this is correct if you if you are lonely unemployed etc in a poor country even if conditions aren't great you are likely to gravitate to your fellow nationals if you are an immigrant and will gain a sense of community, hopefully

 

[KleinerWolf]

"I suspect this is correct if you if you are lonely unemployed etc in a poor country even if conditions aren't great you are likely to gravitate to your fellow nationals if you are an immigrant and will gain a sense of community, hopefully"

comfort zones probably.
whatever helps them...

 

[Disappointered]

I guess the way they take up lower skilled jobs, less well paid positions,
is because they have no choice, as opposed to their country of origin they are probably now feeling more hopeful.

Having a social construct and be part of it,
that's just squeezing the last drop of what you have really.
After all it's all they got.

Yeah so it's not about being a 3rd world country in the sense that it's poor it's about being in what you suggest is a totalitarian country with disfunctional community. If that is factually accurate then I can see how it would leave people feeling like their quality of life is very low and would consider it rational to commit suicide. I haven't observed that to be true for 3rd world countries in general and suspect it isn't even the typical response among the Chinese. However, I wouldn't really know as I've never been to China.

Obviously being poor is worse than being rich but the other factors are more important imo. The chinese people I've known and observed in the wealthy country i live in are extremely concerned about community and survive primarily as members of chinese diaspora community, not as mythical western 'individuals'.

 

[KleinerWolf]

Yeah so it's not about being a 3rd world country in the sense that it's poor it's about being in what you suggest is a totalitarian country with disfunctional community. If that is factually accurate then I can see how it would leave people feeling like their quality of life is very low and would consider it rational to commit suicide. I haven't observed that to be true for 3rd world countries in general and suspect it isn't even the typical response among the Chinese. However, I wouldn't really know as I've never been to China.

Obviously being poor is worse than being rich but the other factors are more important imo. The chinese people I've known and observed in the wealthy country i live in are extremely concerned about community and survive primarily as members of chinese diaspora community, not as mythical western 'individuals'.

I guess I'm not so Chinese after all.
Not that it helps me.

But um, okay then lol

 

[All washed up]

Yeah so it's not about being a 3rd world country in the sense that it's poor it's about being in what you suggest is a totalitarian country with disfunctional community. If that is factually accurate then I can see how it would leave people feeling like their quality of life is very low and would consider it rational to commit suicide. I haven't observed that to be true for 3rd world countries in general and suspect it isn't even the typical response among the Chinese. However, I wouldn't really know as I've never been to China.

Obviously being poor is worse than being rich but the other factors are more important imo. The chinese people I've known and observed in the wealthy country i live in are extremely concerned about community and survive primarily as members of chinese diaspora community, not as mythical western 'individuals'.

I think we are getting to the answer here. Op being from China as opposed to say India Philippines much of Africa etc. Is the issue. Obviously I don't have an insight into OPs personal circumstances but there's clearly a lot of money in China compared to many other countries but way less freedom and from what I can see what freedom there is is becoming less all the time.

Imho China has been destroyed as a country by the communist party any sense of community has completely disappeared at least in the cities and minority areas

 

[Amumu]

I voted "I don't know"
The problem here OP is that you seem to have invested all your life in leaving your native country, and people voting here don't necessarily know that

 

[GrumpyFrog]

I voted "I don't know", because there are just too many variables to it.

In my opinion, suicide becomes rational when a person a) is suffering, b) can't find or access any resources that will allow them to cope with their suffering and c) there is no other permanent solution available, or the ones available come at a cost that the person in question deems unacceptable. Some people can find their place even in a messed up economy, or fit in with a messed up culture and live a perfectly happy life in their country of birth. Some people can prioritize other things such as family, professional success, love, religion, you name it - and being successful in those areas can make them happy in spite of a bad economical, political and/or social situation around them. Finally, for some people who hate their countries and don't fit in it is possible to simply emigrate permanently. But if someone is in neither of these three categories, I believe suicide might be rational, although this is a deeply personal issue.

 

[KleinerWolf]

Basically what Nessie said.
I do agree with it.
Just so happens, nationality appears to be my focal point.
I could have other major problems that bother me but no.

fascinating what goes on in the mind of a suicidal person,
things that can't be solved in a simple fashion,
the pain is just there, whether you like it or not.

I think at some point, I will take my life.
Not that I have anything to lose.
It's tempting to rage quit like the other dudes.

Just be done with it, really.

 

[Amumu]

Also if I might say it's important that a vote doesn't influence you here...
It probably doesn't but it's paramount to keep it in mind

 

[Kramer]

This is is why diversity fails. People are happiest around their own people, which is why you see enclaves of different groups throughout the U.S. Throw a person from one nationality into another one of a different ethnicity and good luck. You'll feel like an outsider if you don't have others like you in your new country.

 

[KleinerWolf]

"Also if I might say it's important that a vote doesn't influence you here...
It probably doesn't but it's paramount to keep it in mind"

yes that's worth pointing out.

It'll be an individual choice.





Edit:

This is is why diversity fails. People are happiest around their own people, which is why you see enclaves of different groups throughout the U.S. Throw a person from one nationality into another one of a different ethnicity and good luck. You'll feel like an outsider if you don't have others like you in your new country.

I was the most unhappiest when I was with my group.

Just me? okay I'll shut up.

 

[All washed up]

This is is why diversity fails. People are happiest around their own people, which is why you see enclaves of different groups throughout the U.S. Throw a person from one nationality into another one of a different ethnicity and good luck. You'll feel like an outsider if you don't have others like you in your new country.

Ethnicity is less of a problem than language or religion in my experience, in terms of 'fitting in'.

 

[epic]

I voted No. This might sound patronizing but healthy people can reach great heights in their professional and personal lives. Our mind and body are extremely resillient . In my experience, every family I have talked to has had people who have improved their situation leaps and bounds even though they had been dealt a sh*tty hand , it is only a matter of how bad they wanted it . If you live in a not so nice country you would probably have to work harder but the principle remains the same. How bad do you want it? Are you willing to put that much effort? .

 

[KleinerWolf]

Our mind and body are extremely resillient . In my experience, every family I have talked to has had people who have improved their situation leaps and bounds even though they had been dealt a sh*tty hand , it is only a matter of how bad they wanted it . If you live in a not so nice country you would probably have to work harder but the principle remains the same. How bad do you want it? Are you willing to put that much effort? .

*Thinks to self and talk to the universe*,
"YES DADDY MAKE ME AUSTRALIAN!"
"I'll DO ANYTHING!"

 

[MichaelNomad123]

Strange question.

If you mean do social and/or economic conditions influence conditions such as depression resulting in eventual suicide? Then yes. Of course. Is that the only reason? No, absolutely not. Is it irrational to kill yourself because of where you are born? Yes, absolutely, but there are a range of connected and disconnected reasons why someone might kill themselves.

It seems like you are asking whether or not being born in a developing nation as opposed to a developed nation is cause for suicide. The answer is of course no. You trade one set of problems for another. Adversely, there is a wealth of anecdotal evidence out there from Western travelers of developing nations claiming that people in developing nations are generally happier and more fulfilled. Whether or not you put stock in that is your choice. I do. Humanity is best with purpose. What better purpose is there than survival or progress? Progress in the West is largely stunted. You play for numbers, not real gain. My quality of life is largely the same whether I make 13k a year or 130k a year.

 

[woxihuanni]

I voted No. This might sound patronizing but healthy people can reach great heights in their professional and personal lives. Our mind and body are extremely resillient . In my experience, every family I have talked to has had people who have improved their situation leaps and bounds even though they had been dealt a sh*tty hand , it is only a matter of how bad they wanted it . If you live in a not so nice country you would probably have to work harder but the principle remains the same. How bad do you want it? Are you willing to put that much effort? .

I see. You know what? Since nobody can be this ignorant, you must have some sort of interest in selling this. And I don't want to know what it is.

 

[KleinerWolf]

Strange question.

If you mean do social and/or economic conditions influence conditions such as depression resulting in eventual suicide? Then yes. Of course. Is that the only reason? No, absolutely not. Is it irrational to kill yourself because of where you are born? Yes, absolutely, but there are a range of connected and disconnected reasons why someone might kill themselves.

It seems like you are asking whether or not being born in a developing nation as opposed to a developed nation is cause for suicide. The answer is of course no. You trade one set of problems for another. Adversely, there is a wealth of anecdotal evidence out there from Western travelers of developing nations claiming that people in developing nations are generally happier and more fulfilled. Whether or not you put stock in that is your choice. I do. Humanity is best with purpose. What better purpose is there than survival or progress? Progress in the West is largely stunted. You play for numbers, not real gain. My quality of life is largely the same whether I make 13k a year or 130k a year.

Appreciate your input.

It wasn't just about money.
It was also about freedom.
Some second world countries may have that to a moderate extent,
Others perhaps too brainwashed to understand what is freedom.

People have different expectations, setof beliefs and what they want to do in life,
it really isn't one size fits all.

To each their own honestly.
I'll probably stop talking about this oneday when I'm no longer have anything to do with it.

 

[All washed up]

Strange question.

If you mean do social and/or economic conditions influence conditions such as depression resulting in eventual suicide? Then yes. Of course. Is that the only reason? No, absolutely not. Is it irrational to kill yourself because of where you are born? Yes, absolutely, but there are a range of connected and disconnected reasons why someone might kill themselves.

It seems like you are asking whether or not being born in a developing nation as opposed to a developed nation is cause for suicide. The answer is of course no. You trade one set of problems for another. Adversely, there is a wealth of anecdotal evidence out there from Western travelers of developing nations claiming that people in developing nations are generally happier and more fulfilled. Whether or not you put stock in that is your choice. I do. Humanity is best with purpose. What better purpose is there than survival or progress? Progress in the West is largely stunted. You play for numbers, not real gain. My quality of life is largely the same whether I make 13k a year or 130k a year.

The thing is the OP is in China rather than a typical developing country.
It really makes the question not quite as it seems.
I do wonder where all this evidence from western travellers about people in developing countries are happier and more fulfilled comes from.
In my experience it's so far from the truth, survival and (almost always very precarious) progress are not great purposes or the way to an enjoyable life.

I see. You know what? Since nobody can be this ignorant, you must have some sort of interest in selling this. And I don't want to know what it is.

Woxihuanni the ignorance of lots of the posts on this thread are just what I'd expect.
The idealistic view the vast majority of 1st world people have of 2/3 lives is staggering.

 

[MichaelNomad123]

The thing is the OP is in China rather than a typical developing country.
It really makes the question not quite as it seems.
I do wonder where all this evidence from western travellers about people in developing countries are happier and more fulfilled comes from.
In my experience it's so far from the truth, survival and (almost always very precarious) progress are not great purposes or the way to an enjoyable life.

Woxihuanni the ignorance of lots of the posts on this thread are just what I'd expect.
The idealistic view the vast majority of 1st world people have of 2/3 lives is staggering.

I said anecdotal evidence. That's an important distinction. Ultimately you're going to believe what you want to believe and I'm going to believe what I want to believe, just like everyone else. You can search for statistics to support your claim or dig for people with similar viewpoints. It doesn't really matter because it's all relative, isn't it? You seem bitter and this thread is weird, so I'll bow out before I get drawn into someones ego masturbation.

 

[KleinerWolf]

I said anecdotal evidence. That's an important distinction. Ultimately you're going to believe what you want to believe and I'm going to believe what I want to believe, just like everyone else. You can search for statistics to support your claim or dig for people with similar viewpoints. It doesn't really matter because it's all relative, isn't it? You seem bitter and this thread is weird, so I'll bow out before I get drawn into someones ego masturbation.

Lol
Be gentle with the door on your way out.

 

[mahakaliSS_MahaDurga]

I said anecdotal evidence. That's an important distinction. Ultimately you're going to believe what you want to believe and I'm going to believe what I want to believe, just like everyone else. You can search for statistics to support your claim or dig for people with similar viewpoints. It doesn't really matter because it's all relative, isn't it? You seem bitter and this thread is weird, so I'll bow out before I get drawn into someones ego masturbation.

Whereas you do not seem bitter at all. Take care, don't let the door hit you too hard on your way out.

 

[All washed up]

I said anecdotal evidence. That's an important distinction. Ultimately you're going to believe what you want to believe and I'm going to believe what I want to believe, just like everyone else. You can search for statistics to support your claim or dig for people with similar viewpoints. It doesn't really matter because it's all relative, isn't it? You seem bitter and this thread is weird, so I'll bow out before I get drawn into someones ego masturbation.

I'm not bitter I'm from a 1st world country. And I've never looked at any statistics. And I couldn't care if anyone has same viewpoints as me.
Good bye:)

 

[epic]

I see. You know what? Since nobody can be this ignorant, you must have some sort of interest in selling this. And I don't want to know what it is.

?_?
According to world bank, Over the last 25 years, more than a billion people have lifted themselves out of extreme poverty .As technology increases, we will only be lifting more people out of it . People are getting increased access to healthcare,electrification and internet connectivity. eg A poor country like Ghana has increased electricity in rural areas from 1% to 63% of the population in just 20 years ! . Taking all these facts into consideration, I see a good future for people who are living in these countries. You may have a different philosophy or you may believe we are not doing this fast enough, which is fine but I have come to my conclusion because of the facts that I have stated.

 

[AllReturnsToNothing]

Its not about inequality.
It's about opportunities and what you can work with.

If environmental factors and their experiences are the same for two person in first and second world countries,
let's just say I'm less likely to kill myself if I'm american.

However it would be hard to put things into perspective since living in the first world means having something to fall back on, despite it not being "ideal".

You know the only people in the United States who have anything to "fall back on" tiny percentage of rich people in the country right? I have nothing. My family has nothing. My friends have nothing. You can't just talk about opportunities while ignoring structural inequality, since lack of opportunity is what leads to structural inequality, which feed into each other in a never-ending feedback loop of exploitative misery for the overwhelming majority of the populace. Maybe an American is statistically less likely to kill themselves than people in other countries with structural inequality, but it is because we are a stupid country. We are a country of morons and idiots who will eagerly eat up any spoon-fed lies told to them by the rich that they are DEFINITELY not exploited and it is in fact other exploited groups of people that cause the inequality, leading the people in my country to fight and kill one another ins futile struggles of stupidity. And those that do feel that something is wrong more or less turn to reactionary views, looking to turn to a past where inequality wasn't a reality of the white working class, completely unaware that it was those very same reactionary views that lead them to the hellish conditions we live in now. Meanwhile the few of us who see all of this happening for what it is, in real time, can only watch in horror as we succumb to our own misery in the face of the monstrosities that now rule over us all with an iron fist, unable to escape.

Edit: also it didn't occur to me that you might be from China, and all I have to say to that if that is the case, is that (assuming you're from mainland China, not Hong Kong or Taiwan) at least your government cares about structural inequality and is doing a lot to combat extreme poverty in your country. China is growing richer and richer all while extending economic opportunities to it's working-class citizens meanwhile the economic opportunities that used to exist for someone of my social class that existed 20 years ago no longer exist thanks the corporate oligarchs in charge of the fake democracy we live under.

Double Edit: Also I'm sorry for blowing up in a big paragraph, I don't want to to undermine whatever pain you feel, I just can't ignore the pain I feel from being born in the country that everyone in the world (justifiably) hates so much since it's permanently a part of my identity no matter how much I don't want it to be a part of me wherever I go.

 

[KleinerWolf]

You know the only people in the United States who have anything to "fall back on" tiny percentage of rich people in the country right? I have nothing. My family has nothing. My friends have nothing. You can't just talk about opportunities while ignoring structural inequality, since lack of opportunity is what leads to structural inequality, which feed into each other in a never-ending feedback loop of exploitative misery for the overwhelming majority of the populace. Maybe an American is statistically less likely to kill themselves than people in other countries with structural inequality, but it is because we are a stupid country. We are a country of morons and idiots who will eagerly eat up any spoon-fed lies told to them by the rich that they are DEFINITELY not exploited and it is in fact other exploited groups of people that cause the inequality, leading the people in my country to fight and kill one another ins futile struggles of stupidity. And those that do feel that something is wrong more or less turn to reactionary views, looking to turn to a past where inequality wasn't a reality of the white working class, completely unaware that it was those very same reactionary views that lead them to the hellish conditions we live in now. Meanwhile the few of us who see all of this happening for what it is, in real time, can only watch in horror as we succumb to our own misery in the face of the monstrosities that now rule over us all with an iron fist, unable to escape.

Edit: also it didn't occur to me that you might be from China, and all I have to say to that if that is the case, is that (assuming you're from mainland China, not Hong Kong or Taiwan) at least your government cares about structural inequality and is doing a lot to combat extreme poverty in your country. China is growing richer and richer all while extending economic opportunities to it's working-class citizens meanwhile the economic opportunities that used to exist for someone of my social class that existed 20 years ago no longer exist thanks the corporate oligarchs in charge of the fake democracy we live under.

Double Edit: Also I'm sorry for blowing up in a big paragraph, I don't want to to undermine whatever pain you feel, I just can't ignore the pain I feel from being born in the country that everyone in the world (justifiably) hates so much since it's permanently a part of my identity no matter how much I don't want it to be a part of me wherever I go.

Yeah. Everyone is unique and have different experiences, as well as views on particular things.

I just thought if you actually live in a nice country, get a job, you are sorted,
It's just hard to define what's a nice country when people perhaps care about different things or have different problems.
Suppose only if you are dual citizen you will be able to legitimately pick a side.

I couldn't help wonder why so many people leave places like China and go to US etc but not the other way around.
Hooray to those who made it, honestly it's good for them.