Increased criminalisation (it's happening!)

[Makko]

On 1 may 2021 a new provision that gives prison time for "encouraging suicide" went into force. This is in Sweden.

See the attached public inquiry that the provision is based on. There's an english summary on pages 37-40. Interesting reading on how government thought is developing on the subject. They bring up internet communities multiple times.

The provision, google translated (because I'm lazy):

"Section 7a Anyone who encourages or otherwise similarly exerts psychological influence on someone to commit suicide is convicted, if the act is likely to entail a not insignificant danger of such an act, for incitement to suicide to imprisonment for a maximum of two years.

A person who commits an act referred to in the first subparagraph and does not have intent to commit but is negligent in the circumstances in which the act is likely to present a not insignificant danger of suicide is convicted of negligent incitement to suicide to a fine or imprisonment for a maximum of six months.

Where, in the light of the circumstances, an act referred to in the first or second subparagraph is less serious, it shall not be held liable."

The original provision:

 

[UKscotty]

Pointless law, most people here are ready to CTB anyway. Being arrested is just going to make it even more likely.

 

[Fakereality]

Law and government already treats suicidal people like shit on their boots but this is such a vaguely written provision does that means they are finally going to arrest corporate leaders and stuff for making their workers suicidal are politicians going to get arrested too for their role in creating suffering which leads to people questioning the meaning of their existence sigh.. If only.

 

[Bullit]

Crazy bullshit.

 

[BeyondGoodNEvil]

oh wow another law
i am a good citizen its not like i drive over the speedlimit,do drugs any other activities
but serious note its not restricting suicide its criminalizing .encouraging suicide.basically i cant tell that you should kill yourself but i can say what methods are possible to say achieve such state.Does this site count as an encouragement of suicide tough i mean people here dont encourage anyone to commit suicide its just that no one stops anyone if one plans to do so.

 

[checkouttime]

fixthe26 and stop SS should be worried then!!!

 

[unperson]

Law and government already treats suicidal people like shit on their boots but this is such a vaguely written provision does that means they are finally going to arrest corporate leaders and stuff for making their workers suicidal are politicians going to get arrested too for their role in creating suffering which leads to people questioning the meaning of their existence sigh.. If only.

Lol nah fam rules for thee not for me, this is just so the oligarchs can exert more power while gaslighting with silly legalese to make it seem like it's not all a big shit eating charade

 

[aviation]

Does this site count as an encouragement of suicide tough i mean people here dont encourage anyone to commit suicide its just that no one stops anyone if one plans to do so.

I would say, such laws could be said to, honestly, more count towards a type of 'passive encouragement', than any actual help - whereas this site, from what I can see, gives people a space to be and be genuine, about their feelings, thoughts and being, and the choices they make for themselves, no matter which direction their choice goes in, as opposed to larger society's attempts at forcing people to not take such an action by making them feel isolated and unable to talk, and somehow expecting it to work. It's not on anyone to make people choose, or to force one onto them. Yet, there seems to be a societal distinction only between 'encouragement' and 'attempts to stop', without much acceptance that people's choices are their own. There is a certain irony in all this. What does such a law actually do, other than further cement the feeling in people that they can't talk to anyone about how they feel, due to fear being the answer?

 

[unperson]

oh wow another law
i am a good citizen its not like i drive over the speedlimit,do drugs any other activities
but serious note its not restricting suicide its criminalizing .encouraging suicide.basically i cant tell that you should kill yourself but i can say what methods are possible to say achieve such state.Does this site count as an encouragement of suicide tough i mean people here dont encourage anyone to commit suicide its just that no one stops anyone if one plans to do so.

Look how vaguely it's written, they could accuse you for breaking up with a girlfriend of psychologically influencing her towards suicide

 

[not-2-b-the-answer]

oh wow another law
i am a good citizen its not like i drive over the speedlimit,do drugs any other activities
but serious note its not restricting suicide its criminalizing .encouraging suicide.basically i cant tell that you should kill yourself but i can say what methods are possible to say achieve such state.Does this site count as an encouragement of suicide tough i mean people here dont encourage anyone to commit suicide its just that no one stops anyone if one plans to do so.

How are we supposed to stop anyone from CTB??? We don't even know where they are.

 

[Makko]

Some background: what brought on the law were two issues. The first issue is honor-related violence among middle eastern families. Instead of murdering their daughters the old-fashioned way, the parents turned to a trend of neo-murder where they order their kids to commit suicide so the parents don't have to go to prison. It developed into a whole social phenomenon called "balcony girls" where young MENA-background women are jumping from their balconies in droves, and obviously not on their own initiative. The second issue is related to cyberbullying which I don't have to explain as everyone here knows what that's about.

It's not strange to want to legislate aganst there things as they are. The problem is that normie policemen and judges won't be able to tell the difference between those things and what we're doing. This might cause a lot of collateral damage depending on how broadly the courts interpret it.

 

[xaea13]

oh wow another law
i am a good citizen its not like i drive over the speedlimit,do drugs any other activities
but serious note its not restricting suicide its criminalizing .encouraging suicide.basically i cant tell that you should kill yourself but i can say what methods are possible to say achieve such state.Does this site count as an encouragement of suicide tough i mean people here dont encourage anyone to commit suicide its just that no one stops anyone if one plans to do so.

Yep. I've always made sure to word all my responses in terms of harm reduction, i.e. "I don't want you to CTB, but I certainly don't want you to attempt CTB and survive with severe injuries or get arrested." (And if your country takes this stuff seriously, I recommend you be careful, too).

 

[Pure]

Does this site count as an encouragement of suicide tough i mean people here dont encourage anyone to commit suicide its just that no one stops anyone if one plans to do so.

Depends how you define encouragement. Nobody here pressures anyone into killing themselves (and if they do, they are banned) so it's not encouragement in that sense. If you're a part of the Fthe26 crowd, everyone who uses this website and not actively spamming the suicide hotline number is encouraging suicide (which would include their own children who were on the website before dying but let's not let facts get in the way of emotions).

Laws like this are so fucked up lol, all it does is encourage more suicide. Imagine two people make a pact. One person decides last minute against it or survives their attempt while the other person dies. Now the survivor on hook for assisting or promoting suicide. If I were them I'd just kill myself purely to avoid legal issues. SS is kinder than these people. In the above situation we'd say "it's alright to change your mind at the last minute" or something similar.

It's not strange to want to legislate aganst there things as they are. The problem is that normie policemen and judges won't be able to tell the difference between those things and what we're doing. This might cause a lot of collateral damage depending on how broadly the courts interpret it.

Alright giving the background now I understand however, can we trust the court system to differentiate between someone goading and pressuring someone into suicide vs two suicidal people sharing their feelings and plans and neither is telling them to "seek help"?

I've seen anti SS people cite the Michelle Carter case as legal basis for shutting down the website so there's precedence for people to mischaracterize to further their anti SS bias.

 

[Makko]

Alright giving the background now I understand however, can we trust the court system to differentiate between someone goading and pressuring someone into suicide vs two suicidal people sharing their feelings and plans and neither is telling them to "seek help"?

We can't. The difference is largely only visible from the inside. That's what makes such laws dangerous.

 

[checkouttime]

i found this in the rules and info

Will the site ever close? Should I worry?
Our website does not aid or encourage suicide, and all information provided is for educational purposes only. We only offer a place to discuss the topic of suicide; in other words, we provide a free speech platform for those that can't speak about suicide anywhere else. We have taken precautions to avoid issues that could arise, but regardless, there might be days where the forum is in the public eye. At those times, please don't panic. Suicide is a taboo topic, and thus, we must not succumb to any paranoia or fear. Help us keep the peace during these times by calming other users and not creating panic by making threads about it. Downtime may happen at times due to maintenance, upgrades, or feature changes, if there's anything that you should know, we'll make a thread about it and pin it. In short, the site is not illega

Depends how you define encouragement. Nobody here pressures anyone into killing themselves (and if they do, they are banned) so it's not encouragement in that sense. If you're a part of the Fthe26 crowd, everyone who uses this website and not actively spamming the suicide hotline number is encouraging suicide (which would include their own children who were on the website before dying but let's not let facts get in the way of emotions).

Laws like this are so fucked up lol, all it does is encourage more suicide. Imagine two people make a pact. One person decides last minute against it or survives their attempt while the other person dies. Now the survivor on hook for assisting or promoting suicide. If I were them I'd just kill myself purely to avoid legal issues. SS is kinder than these people. In the above situation we'd say "it's alright to change your mind at the last minute" or something similar.

Alright giving the background now I understand however, can we trust the court system to differentiate between someone goading and pressuring someone into suicide vs two suicidal people sharing their feelings and plans and neither is telling them to "seek help"?

I've seen anti SS people cite the Michelle Carter case as legal basis for shutting down the website so there's precedence for people to mischaracterize to further their anti SS bias.

encouragement is telling someone to do something. providing information and letting people decide what they want to do with it is very different. the people have to join this site and search for it, they are actually making an effort to find the information because they want it.

yes the social media mobs kids were on here and thankfully they were able to find a method and end their suffering. or i at least hope they didn't suffer, they could i imagine have done though, especially given alot of misinformation and stuff can be posted. i wondered if they got scared by what people have posted....i hope they didn't they had enough to put up with with their shitty parents.

I spoke to someone who told me that some of the members of them groups abused their kids and even sexually aswell. No wonder there trying to blame SS for their own shit, to cover their own arses.

I mean what sort of people brag about there kids being dead on social media. posting pictures and telling the world while looking for attention. I mean the kids are still being abused now, they can't even get away from being abused by there parents by ctb.

most normal people if their relatives had died, grieve and keep it to themselves. they don't don't go posting all over social media and telling everyone to get a few like on FB and twitter.

 

[Makko]

i found this in the rules and info

Will the site ever close? Should I worry?

The site is not currently in danger. What these laws mean is that you can randomly find yourself prosecuted for, in some real-life context, expressing yourself about suicide in a non-approved way. I never talk about suicide in real life, but many people here apparently talk lots about it, and it carries risks. The political climate about it is not moving in the right direction.

 

[checkouttime]

The site is not currently in danger. What these laws mean is that you can randomly find yourself prosecuted for, in some real-life context, expressing yourself about suicide in a non-approved way. I never talk about suicide in real life, but many people here apparently talk lots about it, and it carries risks. The political climate about it is not moving in the right direction.

oh right you mean talking about it in public? It only carries risks if you live in Sweden though i guess.

 

[Makko]

oh right you mean talking about it in public? It only carries risks if you live in Sweden though i guess.

For this particular law, sure. But from a world perspective this law far from unique, and it's far from the last.

 

[checkouttime]

I could imagine it would be very hard to enforce. What happens if 2 non suicidal people were talking about it? say they say a suicide in a newspaper or whatever. are they going get arrested?? If a country has laws like that no one will be walking around talking as they would be scared of getting locked up!!! I would think if two people were talking about it then they would be ok doing that, and one wouldn't report the other for it. I'm sure when people on here talk about it they do so with people they can trust.

I mean you'd have to be basically stood next to a police officer and they would have to hear you,for you to get in trouble. I guess that would be a person own fault if they were that stupid!!!

 

[Makko]

In practice laws like these are only enforced when someone goes through with an attempt (successful or unsuccessful) and there's evidence that the attempt was made under someone's influence.

 

[checkouttime]

In practice laws like these are only enforced when someone goes through with an attempt (successful or unsuccessful) and there's evidence that the attempt was made under someone's influence.

I don't know how that would be proved though, i wouldn't say two people even talking about it can be classed as under someone's influence. I mean you'd have to be telling someone you wanted them to CTB

I imagine something like what i have posted below would count though

 

[Pure]

I don't know how that would be proved though, i wouldn't say two people even talking about it can be classed as under someone's influence. I mean you'd have to be telling someone you wanted them to CTB

I imagine something like what i have posted below would count though

View attachment 71994

Everyone on SS are monsters who should kill themselves except for my precious child

 

[not-2-b-the-answer]

Everyone on SS are monsters who should kill themselves except for my precious child

Still wishing I could CTB.

 

[Pure]

Still wishing I could CTB.

Big same but I'm holding off for now to try some new things