Incellular Posts

[Suicidebydeath]

It's a place where people write to each other. This entails both discussion and debate, as well as jokes and cyberhugs. I don't want to see this place turn into a kindergarten, hope this is just a vocal minority thingy. Really weird vibe to it: "oh no, please don't say "fuck" or "retarded", but feel free to write about suicide methods."

I see your point. The reason I suggested that we disallow the whole subject is because I don't even know if I myself have gone too far in my posts, since no one has pointed out any examples of bad or misogynistic posts.

I must be misunderstanding something. None of this should be tolerated, but are you making a difference somewhere in your statement? I just don't understand.

Explain the contradiction. Pick a side.

 

[Julgran]

Maybe it's time these guys were actually told, women don't owe men sex. If you aren't getting any, maybe it's time to take a long hard look at yourself.

Here is a great misunderstanding, at least compared to my own writings on the subject from earlier threads. I just think that we are too dissimilar to ever be able to communicate effectively with each other.

Explain the contradiction. Pick a side.

I was basically asking you what you meant - that was the content of my question to you.

 

[Suicidebydeath]

Neither does non-rule-breaking incellular posts. So now you want to ban things that might lead to people breaking the rules? Lol.

I'm sorry that you lack the understanding to see that it does even when presented with evidence to your own eyes. (see post #75 which they already knew about)

I didn't say ban, that's on you.
You're asking me if I think that things that lead to women getting death-threats and possibly worse should be considered notable now? Yes? I think that was my point. Are you accidentally agreeing with me?

 

[BeansOfRequirement]

Or maybe the rules regarding misogynistic content are so lax they are practically non-existent and this website has had an absolutely blatant blind spot regarding it for very obvious reasons?

It depends on what kind of forum one wants. I would rather have more freedom but risk having some harsh words thrown my way. Anyway, this is a discussion as old as time. I think I've said what I wanted to say, and I hope that I have somehow slowed down the process of the forum becoming cucked and neurotypical.

 

[Suicidebydeath]

Here is a great misunderstanding, at least compared to my own writings on the subject from earlier threads. I just think that we are too dissimilar to ever be able to communicate effectively with each other.


I was basically asking you what you meant - that was the content of my question to you.

You said two things that contradicted each other. I asked you to explain. Ball is in your court. I have not retracted what I said.

It depends on what kind of forum one wants. I would rather have more freedom but risk having some harsh words thrown my way.

Easily said, for a man. This indicates an exceptional lack of insight into the dangers a man faces vs those a woman face.

How likely are you to be told that on here someone is going to find you, kill you and rape you? If you think those are just harsh words I have nothing further to add.

How many times in your lifetime has that happened to you? I'm curious. In your DMs. Give me an accurate estimate of the number of times, that you personally had to deal with harsh words like that?

 

[Julgran]

You said two things that contradicted each other. I asked you to explain. Ball is in your court. I have not retracted what I said.

First I said the following, which means that I'm not sure if this current debate revolves around my own postings from before, in other threads.

"I see your point. The reason I suggested that we disallow the whole subject is because I don't even know if I myself have gone too far in my posts, since no one has pointed out any examples of bad or misogynistic posts."


After that, you wrote the following, at which point I asked you what you meant, because I'm thinking that you are writing that one thing is acceptable, and another is not - this is why I asked you to clarify, because I don't understand.

"I don't see it. It's another strawman. Nobody is saying that we censor fuck or the r-word. Neither of those things lead down a path that make it seem ok to start harassing women in DMs and telling them to kill themselves because of creating a mini echo-chamber where it's ok to say whatever you want, no holds barred. We're talking about unfettered misogyny, there's a distinction between that and exclusive free speech, because one is far more dangerous. It's the topic of the OP."

 

[Suicidebydeath]

Really weird vibe to it: "oh no, please don't say "fuck" or "retarded", but feel free to write about suicide methods."

I see your point. The reason I suggested that we disallow the whole subject is because I don't even know if I myself have gone too far in my posts, since no one has pointed out any examples of bad or misogynistic posts.

Explain what you mean by you see his point.

 

[Julgran]

Explain what you mean by you see his point.

If you are referring to post #46, I agreed with @GenesAndEnvironment, since he/she said this:

"It's a place where people write to each other. This entails both discussion and debate, as well as jokes and cyberhugs. I don't want to see this place turn into a kindergarten, hope this is just a vocal minority thingy. Really weird vibe to it: "oh no, please don't say "fuck" or "retarded", but feel free to write about suicide methods."

Is this the answer that you are looking for? I'm sensing an unwarranted hostility from your part, which I don't understand where it's coming from.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Speaking only for myself as an incel, I haven't really seen any more of an uptick in misogyny but maybe that somehow means I'm the source of it all, simply by existing. I never intended to be misogynist but I can see how my status as an incel makes me one even if I do nothing. I hope you all can wait for me to kill myself first before banning me though.

I think invalidating an incel's experiences on this site or anywhere else by labeling it as unnecessary complaining or by giving them the same vague cliche advice to improve themselves isn't helpful at all. Even if an incel really is that way purely because of their thought patterns, how does challenging them even help them? We've seen time and time again that making people feel stupid even when they really are being that way will just cause them to double down on their beliefs for any reason and entrench them deeper. Imagine if someone here was called a "mentally challenged depressed and anxious loser" by another user just because they were feeling suicidal. Just because it's true, doesn't mean it's not hurtful to call them that.

As for the incels who are complaining about women, how is this any different than when a lot of the women here rightfully complain about all men whenever they have been abused or victimized by a few? No one accuses these people of misandry, and they shouldn't. This is because they were indeed hurt by men and have the right to feel that way. Why should it be any different when men have been hurt by women? Why are we enforcing toxic masculinity by demanding that these men just get over their feelings just because the ones who hurt them happened to be women?

Mocking and shaming incels isn't helping them or even the incel problem as a whole, it only exacerbates the issue by giving them a reason to go "see! I'm being unfairly targeted!" Whether or not they're right is irrelevant because other incels may see that and draw the same conclusion anyway thus driving them further down the dark pit they might already be in meaning they will likely be able to go out and cause more problems for others.

That said I don't endorse harassment of anyone especially not from fellow incels/lonely men. We're all here for a reason. If you can't accept that your life can get any better how is it fair to expect someone else here to be able to fix their own problems for any reason. Whether they're in a relationship or not, they've got their own reasons for needing to be here and to degrade someone one way or the other just doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think call out threads like this really accomplish anything either (especially with no specific examples but I might just be stupid too or I'm just late and they keep getting deleted while I'm gone). If there are people harassing you for any reason then fine, report them. Don't drag the drama out any further in a way that makes it seem like all lonely men who are here should be silenced. Maybe that's not your intention but it's just the way I saw it though.

 

[Interloper]

Speaking only for myself as an incel

But why would you voluntarily (heh) label yourself as an incel? The original meaning is long gone, whenever I see talk about incels it's about the vile and toxic dudes, who see women as nothing but a sex toy, and blame all of their issues on them. Yada yada. I haven't seen any of those posts come from you.

Distance yourself from the word, even if you are one by its literal definition. It has always been a dumb label.

Also the thread title is humurous, thought this guy wanted to know if it was safe to post from his 4g connection or something.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

But why would you voluntarily (heh) label yourself as an incel? The original meaning is long gone, whenever I see talk about incels it's about the vile and toxic dudes, who see women as nothing but a sex toy, and blame all of their issues on them. Yada yada. I haven't seen any of those posts come from you.

Distance yourself from the word, even if you are one by its literal definition. It has always been a dumb label.

Well for one, I literally am one like you said. I don't like to be intentionally dishonest so even if it's just a meaningless, tarnished label, its literal definition is still a useful descriptor for the pathetic state I'm in.

It also serves as a clear warning flag for people to stay away and not get too close to me since even if someone did not believe I am one, they would quickly see why I could be considered one. I still prefer to call myself one though because it sets people's expectations of me very low and because I like subverting these expectations by not being the typical picture of an incel.

Besides, it's less syllables than "Kissless virgin loser who is so wrapped up in his own self-loathing and fear that he will never be able to get a girlfriend no matter what."

 

[Suicidebydeath]

I will make my stance absolutely 100% clear because I agree with @goldenvirginia and don't understand why this is even that hard of a debate. I also agree with everything @Chinaski said.

I will post below the results of unfettered misogyny on SaSu. Personal indentifiers have been scrubbed to a degree that I think is reasonable to prevent villification.

Below you can see what DMs from a passive poster look like. The person below did not make many posts and simply egged on the existing misogyny getting a high off it while posing as completely neutral before then targeting vulnerable posters in the same thread. In DM afterwards attempting to predate on the woman, to which she ignored. They then posted all of this. Which does not look anything like neutral to me.

So I think its clear where I stand, I don't think the below is acceptable, at all, in any way.

 

[OnlyTheWind]

I'm lonely and jealous of guys who have gfs that I would like to have. But it's perfectly understandable that no girl wants to be with an unemployed creep who doesn't go to the gym, has no real life friends, jokes about people dying, almost never goes out, etc. I've thought about this. What do these dudes expect? That their bitter personalities will be accepted while they get to have all the sex they want? When I see girls, I just feel really sad, not angry or entitled. It's never been about sex to me, but the feeling of accomplishment and self-worth that I would have being next to a girl who I approached using my own ability and knowing that she likes me.

 

[Julgran]

I'm lonely and jealous of guys who have gfs that I would like to have. But it's perfectly understandable that no girl wants to be with an unemployed creep who doesn't go to the gym, has no real life friends, jokes about people dying, almost never goes out, etc. I've thought about this. What do these dudes expect? That their bitter personalities will be accepted while they get to have all the sex they want? When I see girls, I just feel really sad, not angry or entitled. It's never been about sex to me, but the feeling of accomplishment and self-worth that I would have being next to a girl who I approached using my own ability and knowing that she likes me.

You are right in that some men are like that, which is unfortunate, but there are those who have never been bitter outwards or been misogynistic in any way - please keep that in mind.

 

[OnlyTheWind]

You are right in that some men are like that, which is unfortunate, but there are those who have never been bitter outwards or been misogynistic in any way - please keep that in mind.

I didn't mean to suggest that most or even many are like that. I was just referencing some of the behavior we've seen here :)

 

[Julgran]

I didn't mean to suggest that most or even many are like that. I was just referencing some of the behavior we've seen here :)

I see

 

[PDAnnie2610]

I actually can't believe this is even being debated. Maybe that's the problem. Some people won't open their eyes and recognise misogyny even when it's blatantly obvious. Maybe it's time these guys were actually told, women don't owe men sex. If you aren't getting any, maybe it's time to take a long hard look at yourself.

No one owes anyone sex, be they man or woman. Period.

It depends on what kind of forum one wants. I would rather have more freedom but risk having some harsh words thrown my way. Anyway, this is a discussion as old as time. I think I've said what I wanted to say, and I hope that I have somehow slowed down the process of the forum becoming cucked and neurotypical.

With more freedom comes more responsibility (to self censor) so as to be fair to those who are vulnerable, suicidal and seeking support. Advocating gender based hatred is not the way to go. Responsible, considerate debate with due consideration for how it can affect other users here should be how we behave, rather than attacking vulnerable ops on threads they start.

 

[BluesRunTheGame]

Distance yourself from the word, even if you are one by its literal definition. It has always been a dumb label.

I don't see why he should; it would be like invalidating his experience. And like he basically says, as long as you're not harassing women you can think what you want.

 

[Suicidebydeath]

I don't see why he should; it would be like invalidating his experience. And like he basically says, as long as you're not harassing women you can think what you want.

I think because people might treat them negatively or with pre-bias as soon as they see the word Incel. Like with everything else people generally don't understand (personality disorders, autism, etc). Besides that I agree with both of you. It's a dumb label and as long as you're respectful to women it doesn't matter either. You could say, well people like that don't matter but lets be honest here, everyone has a bias, against something or other, without necessarily being a bad person. It can be subconscious.

I don't think it's invalidating, although it depends on how they feel. Invalidation would be saying its wrong to think that way. I think @AntiquatedHorror is just giving them the advice they feel is right to make their situation better. Personally if someone tells me they're an incel I sympathise with them even though I'm not one. It's only when its combined with anything attacking women then I am turned off by them (and write them off).

It might also be that a lot of Incels are just unlucky people that didn't find someone yet. I believe they can find someone, so I prefer to see them as Presex instead, lol. Honestly, think about either of those terms though, it's weird to me. Celibacy is to do with sex. Why is sex that important that its an identity? There should be a better term. Like Prelove. Incel just makes it sound like they only care about sex, which is a negative connotation in itself. Like I've seen thrown around before by negative Incels "you've had sex so its not important to you" - well, I didn't care about it before either, and they're also wrong because, it still matters. Certainly it wouldn't be my identity! - So its a terrible term to use on that basis and also you'd associate with people that aren't really like you, meaning the ones that just want to bash women and say its all their fault, etc. So is Forever Alone really, but very different people tend to hang around there. Unlucky in love is better, probably, and luck can change it's just all a numbers game, nobody should have to feel bad about themselves.

I'm pretty sure if they just focus on other things, then they'll find someone and it'll happen on its own.

 

[Insomniac]

Honestly do think at this stage if you need an example presented directly to you perhaps your red line for this is in a different place to mine

framing effect, or contrast effect more accurately.

I truly hate posts like this, that nearly do nothing but enrage and segregate people on this website. Even though the general concensus is for equal treatment, posts specifically like these tend to draw out the worst comments, and behaviours of the members of this forum.

I don't know what it is, but there is an absurd amount of sexism against women here. Of all places, that supposedly promote bodily autonomy, and supposedly supports people irregardless of their differences, this is one of the most rampart displays of hatred, misunderstanding or distaste of (primarily) women I've ever seen.

I don't want to discredit anyone on, perhaps, their bad experiences with women or relationships. It happens, and this website is a place to express your pain in regards to that. But the majority of posts that do, are construed in such a way that invokes controversy, and slanderous things against (primarily) the women of this forum (who have, in most cases, done more for this forum than the aforementioned users have). Not all posts are like this, and posts that happen to be like this may not have that intention at heart, but female users have expressed discomfort, disappointment and disgust at these posts.

I'm not against free speech, and I truly believe people should have the freedom to do wrong things, but there's a certain line to that, of which has been crossed numerous times and I hope I'm not the only member to acknowledge that.

Other than reporting said users and reports, I don't have another solution other than to call it out.

It's not new on here. the hatred isn't explicitly expressed most of the time so people hide behind that sense of ambiguity they -think- they leave. while it's clear as day to everyone else.

quite lame indeed

however I don't think it's because these people genuinely hate women more than anything, this place serves as an emotional dumpster for a lot of us so I'm okay with the opposite gender dumping its frustrations on here as long as it helps Idgaf.

 

[noname223]

I truly hate posts like this, that nearly do nothing but enrage and segregate people on this website. Even though the general concensus is for equal treatment, posts specifically like these tend to draw out the worst comments, and behaviours of the members of this forum.

I don't know what it is, but there is an absurd amount of sexism against women here. Of all places, that supposedly promote bodily autonomy, and supposedly supports people irregardless of their differences, this is one of the most rampart displays of hatred, misunderstanding or distaste of (primarily) women I've ever seen.

I don't want to discredit anyone on, perhaps, their bad experiences with women or relationships. It happens, and this website is a place to express your pain in regards to that. But the majority of posts that do, are construed in such a way that invokes controversy, and slanderous things against (primarily) the women of this forum (who have, in most cases, done more for this forum than the aforementioned users have). Not all posts are like this, and posts that happen to be like this may not have that intention at heart, but female users have expressed discomfort, disappointment and disgust at these posts.

I'm not against free speech, and I truly believe people should have the freedom to do wrong things, but there's a certain line to that, of which has been crossed numerous times and I hope I'm not the only member to acknowledge that.

Other than reporting said users and reports, I don't have another solution other than to call it out.

You are probably right. Though I don't see it that often. Thinking and reading about women makes me pretty sad because I have a strong desire for a relationship. That is why I avoid topics which make me too sad. But I think you are right.
I think also the rights of transgender people is a heated topic.
I am kind of dependent on this website. So I don't always play the advocate. I don't want to have a lot of arguments when I am not in a stable condition.
I know this is kind of selfish from me. But I don't have the strength and courage to point that always out. So I am proud that you have done it. And you get a lot of positive feedback which is good.
We should all try to reflect about the actions in this forum. Otherwise we live in a bubble or echo chamber.
We should be open to new arguments and openly discuss it without too much stereotypes and prejudices. That is pretty difficult but it is the only way to go.
I remember one thing women get harrassed in private chat. I think it is important to listen to those women and act against the offender.

 

[LonelyBrazilian]

I'm lonely and jealous of guys who have gfs that I would like to have. But it's perfectly understandable that no girl wants to be with an unemployed creep who doesn't go to the gym, has no real life friends, jokes about people dying, almost never goes out, etc. I've thought about this. What do these dudes expect? That their bitter personalities will be accepted while they get to have all the sex they want? When I see girls, I just feel really sad, not angry or entitled. It's never been about sex to me, but the feeling of accomplishment and self-worth that I would have being next to a girl who I approached using my own ability and knowing that she likes me.

Exatly this. I feel the same.

 

[BluesRunTheGame]

It's never been about sex to me, but the feeling of accomplishment and self-worth that I would have being next to a girl who I approached using my own ability and knowing that she likes me.

The thing is though dude, your sense of self-worth needs to manifest from within yourself; if you're having trouble with women that's the last place I'd want to rely upon it to come.

 

[OnlyTheWind]

The thing is though dude, your sense of self-worth needs to manifest from within yourself; if you're having trouble with women that's the last place I'd want to rely upon it to come.

I am too pathetic to do things myself and lack confidence. I judge my value by the state of my life and whether or not I can attain what I want. If I could be independent and possess skills and characteristics that enable me, perhaps I wouldn't be such a failure. A gf isn't supposed to be the source of my self-worth, but the capacity to have one certainly would be. People have good things to say about me, but they will never comprehend my exhaustion. This isn't living, this is a slow death by existing.

 

[BluesRunTheGame]

I am too pathetic to do things myself and lack confidence. I judge my value by the state of my life and whether or not I can attain what I want. If I could be independent and possess skills and characteristics that enable me, perhaps I wouldn't be such a failure. A gf isn't supposed to be the source of my self-worth, but the capacity to have one certainly would be. People have good things to say about me, but they will never comprehend my exhaustion. This isn't living, this is a slow death by existing.

Sorry dude; boy do I know depression. If there's any way you can force a change in circumstances then do it. But I know it's rarely so simple.

 

[Fragile]

I haven't seen or perceived an uptick in those posts to be completely honest, they've been a rare occurrence ever since I started browsing the forum. That's not me saying that they don't exist or that they are justified in any way imaginable, it's just extremely hard to claim these things without recent examples or data.

And some people are confusing private DMs with public posts. That's where the real abuse happens and where people should be the most cautious when interacting with some internet rando.

And I say that as someone who completely detests most of the incel rhetoric about women.


What I've definitely noticed is a trend of people wanting to have new and extreme rules and have mods censor whatever they don't like. Go back to reddit whit that mentality.
It's weird, since this place is all about freedom of expression and sharing thoughts that are literally censored, looked down, or even criminalized everywhere else.
That's the true beauty about this little forum, not many places retain the freedom and support that we have in here.

 

[GentleJerk]

I didn't even know what an incel was before I joined this forum!

 

[Julgran]

I'll try to make this my final say on the issue. Will you - who dismiss lonely males - reason differently if I present the comparisons below?

General view #1: this issue is too repetitive.
My answer: do we say the same about people who feel lonely during the holidays, given that the holidays occur annually?

General view #2: this issue is irrelevant to everybody else.
My answer: given that this community has attracted people who carry a vast variety of physical or mental ills, which each one of us responds to with understanding - why is this particular issue frowned upon - and with this logic, why don't we simply ignore other issues as well?

General view #3: lonely males should take care of their problems themselves, instead of airing their concerns.
My answer: do we say the same thing about the plight of older people, whom society generally views in a much more favorable light? Just about everyone knows that the elderly are lonely, but no one hates them for it. Also, compare the disregard for lonely males in this community, to the treatment that us suicidal people have gotten from the media lately.

General view #4: lonely males equal incels, and incels equal hatred for women.
My answer: this assumtion is based on preconceived, faulty notions, that likely are based on sensational media reports. However, this attitude is most likely expressed by teenagers with low self-control, or so called "High Value Males" who are unappreciative of women.

General view #5: only males can be incels.
My answer: women can be incels, too. Why shouldn't we care about them?

 

[Sherri]

Yeah you are so right, I saw such a disrespectfully towards women a few days I wanted to comment but decided not to. Not into confrontation.

 

[Chinaski]

I'll try to make this my final say on the issue. Will you - who dismiss lonely males - reason differently if I present the comparisons below?

General view #1: this issue is too repetitive.
My answer: do we say the same about people who feel lonely during the holidays, given that the holidays occur annually?

General view #2: this issue is irrelevant to everybody else.
My answer: given that this community has attracted people who carry a vast variety of physical or mental ills, which each one of us responds to with understanding - why is this particular issue frowned upon - and with this logic, why don't we simply ignore other issues as well?

General view #3: lonely males are should take care of their problems themselves, instead of airing their concerns.
My answer: do we say the same thing about the plight of older people, whom society generally views in a much more favorable light? Just about everyone knows that the elderly are lonely, but no one hates them for it. Also, compare the disregard for lonely males in this community, to the treatment that us suicidal people have gotten from the media lately.

General view #4: lonely males equal incels, and incels equal hatred for women.
My answer: this assumtion is based on preconceived, faulty notions, that likely are based on sensational media reports. However, this attitude is most likely expressed by teenagers with low self-control, or so called "High Value Males" who are unappreciative of women.

General view #5: only males can be incels.
My answer: women can be incels, too. Why shouldn't we care about them?

The issue with this post in its entirety is that it conflates "lonely males" with "misogynistic bullshit", the discussion in this thread has very clearly drawn a distinction between the two. This is a further destructive component of tedious incel rhetoric imo in that it assumes the correct and appropriate challenging of its more unpleasant rhetorical aspects is a further act of persecution against maleness and thus the self-justifying bullshit continues.

The facts are that if someone is an objectionable arsehole who spouts furious misogynistic nonsense on the daily, chances are that person is contributing significantly to their own isolation.