Discussion if we are suicidal, why does the brain say so? What's the reasoning behind it?

[KleinerWolf]

I know people may suffer from various traumas, financial/legal/physical/mental health problems,
what I'm trying to figure out, I want to understand how this decision making process works

Spoiler: my reasoning

For me it was actually like,
the potential reward to go on does not match up to my perceived effort & suffering I'm currently going through.

Other than the actual problems,
behind the scenes, what's your reasoning that cause you to say "I wanna kill myself"?

People may say:
"it's not worth it"
"I'm in too much pain"

but is there other common reasoning I overlooked?

I'm trying to understand suicide a little bit better.
Answers are welcome.

 

[FarAcrossTheWater]

Nature makes mistakes often. The way that traits develop is through a brutal trial and error process by which the less desirable die off. I do figure that we're trying to die because nature made broken goods. There's all this bullshit about how every life is precious. Those same people still eat meat and behave poorly to less fortunate people.

Not to mention that life is an awful thing to do to an animal. You're gonna end up dead. Yet, the point is meaningless happiness. The never ending pursuit for highs and lows. Give me a fucking break.

 

[StringPuppet]

Imo our brains aren't tricked by the usual self-deluding mechanisms like everyone else's.

 

[TheGoodGuy]

the potential reward to go on does not match up to my perceived effort & suffering I'm currently going through.

I have also said this many times, you can check the search engine if curious. That is why I say "childhood and teenage years are living, adulthood is just existing", in my childhood I had no physical or mental problems and only a few in my teenage years i.e my youth, as an adult there is no reward for all the suffering most adults have some hard problems month or even years apart so they get breaks between I don´t mine is every day.

So rationally it makes no sense if you put the pain and suffering on one side of the old school scales and reward on the other (if you get that mental picture) why keep existing when you´re no living? I even made a thread about how I feel I have lived a full life I had the best childhood ever and fun and exciting teenage years where I truly lived despite depression so using my teenage years as an example to your post and my own yes I had depression and experienced great pain and suffering BUT I had many close friends and a big social circle, was passionate about my style, my look, girls, hopes and dreams, had many hobbies and looking forward to weekends to hang out with friends so despite the suffering the scale was more equalized although the suffering probably still won it still made sense to live because I still had a life which I haven´t had for many many years. I even made a graph a long time ago illustrating this on my own life.

When looking at age 14-17 life was still fun and exciting despite the suffering, I know I said "suffering probably still won" but it terms of the fun and excitement I had I think 60 on the scale is pretty accurate. And using this graph as an example then even if my physical and mental illnesses magically disappeared and I would feel just content with "life" at around 30-35% even 40% why would I settle for that for the next 60+ years when I have experienced life at its peak at 100% in childhood? I guess I could settle for 80% since life was still fun and exciting and I didn´t have depression yet and the hopefulness of my hopes and dreams and the excitement when thinking about trying to look good in hope of getting a girlfriend etc. but anything below I just don´t see the point in. Death is inevitable for everyone so why does people HAVE to live exist when they are not living and like me haven´t been living for nearly a decade 9+ years to be exact. As I said I HAVE indeed lived a great life and even after years of over a dozen physical and mentally illnesses tormenting me I still can´t say the words "I wish I never had been born" since I lived such a great life but that´s my point I HAVE lived it so whether you have lived a full life at 17 like me or 80 there shouldn´t be a difference, a full life is a full life no matter the age and what good is keep being alive just for the sake of being alive if you´re not living it´s just waiting for death anyways.

EDIT: @StrokeMyEgoBaby sorry if you feel like I highjacked your thread maybe I should make a separate one with your quote at the top. I also wanna say it´s nice to see someone who thinks the same way on the matter of what is life without any reward for all the hardship and suffering.

 

[KleinerWolf]

I have also said this many times, you can check the search engine if curious. That is why I say "childhood and teenage years are living, adulthood is just existing", in my childhood I had no physical or mental problems and only a few in my teenage years i.e my youth, as an adult there is no reward for all the suffering most adults have some hard problems month or even years apart so they get breaks between I don´t mine is every day.

So rationally it makes no sense if you put the pain and suffering on one side of the old school scales and reward on the other (if you get that mental picture) why keep existing when you´re no living? I even made a thread about how I feel I have lived a full life I had the best childhood ever and fun and exciting teenage years where I truly lived despite depression so using my teenage years as an example to your post and my own yes I had depression and experienced great pain and suffering BUT I had many close friends and a big social circle, was passionate about my style, my look, girls, hopes and dreams, had many hobbies and looking forward to weekends to hang out with friends so despite the suffering the scale was more equalized although the suffering probably still won it still made sense to live because I still had a life which I haven´t had for many many years. I even made a graph a long time ago illustrating this on my own life.
View attachment 48996
When looking at age 14-17 life was still fun and exciting despite the suffering, I know I said "suffering probably still won" but it terms of the fun and excitement I had I think 60 on the scale is pretty accurate. And using this graph as an example then even if my physical and mental illnesses magically disappeared and I would feel just content with "life" at around 30-35% even 40% why would I settle for that for the next 60+ years when I have experienced life at its peak at 100% in childhood? I guess I could settle for 80% since life was still fun and exciting and I didn´t have depression yet and the hopefulness of my hopes and dreams and the excitement when thinking about trying to look good in hope of getting a girlfriend etc. but anything below I just don´t see the point in. Death is inevitable for everyone so why does people HAVE to live exist when they are not living and like me haven´t been living for nearly a decade 9+ years to be exact. As I said I HAVE indeed lived a great life and even after years of over a dozen physical and mentally illnesses tormenting me I still can´t say the words "I wish I never had been born" since I lived such a great life but that´s my point I HAVE lived it so whether you have lived a full life at 17 like me or 80 there shouldn´t be a difference, a full life is a full life no matter the age and what good is keep being alive just for the sake of being alive if you´re not living it´s just waiting for death anyways.

EDIT: @StrokeMyEgoBaby sorry if you feel like I highjacked your thread maybe I should make a separate one with your quote at the top. I also wanna say it´s nice to see someone who thinks the same way on the matter of what is life without any reward for all the hardship and suffering.

Sorry to hear your excitement level dropped,
I think reward system is a big part of actually feeling alive.
It can be tailored to different things for sure.

I've had my life in a handful unwanted detours,
my appreciation for exciting things are still there,
only because they were so distant from me,
been 9 years as well, without major progress however.

I'm like that guy who's late for the party,
they be closing when I arrive lol

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

For me I know that I have enough going for me that anyone with even a shred of willpower would probably be able to take my exact life into great places.

Problem is that the soul that resides in this body of mine now is too shitty and corrupted to be able to or even want to care enough to not give up. That's why suicide is so appealing to me, because I nothing short of eternal paradise where I literally get everything I want and nothing bad ever happens is going to make me Not want to give up entirely at some point. Dying is my only chance of even coming close to heaven even though I am aware I'm likely more headed to hell although eternal nothingness sounds ok too to be honest.

 

[RedRed]

I think the lack of a specific amount of neurotransmitters in the brain could be a factor. Both dopamine and serotonin is key for a person to be happy, and if both are low then you might be prone to thoughts like this. If a person just wants to ctb without any reason at all, this is called the "Thanatos Effect" aka "The Call of the Void". Almost all of us have self-destructive thoughts, it could be an instinct. Well this is from my lesson in Psych. I'm glad I learned smth at least.

 

[TheGoodGuy]

Sorry to hear your excitement level dropped,
I think reward system is a big part of actually feeling alive.
It can be tailored to different things for sure.

I've had my life in a handful unwanted detours,
my appreciation for exciting things are still there,
only because they were so distant from me,
been 9 years as well, without major progress however.

I'm like that guy who's late for the party,
they be closing when I arrive lol

Good for you but for me apathy and anhedonia along with my other physical and mental illnesses gets worse every single year I can feel no excitement at all I get absolutely ZERO reward for this suffering.

 

[Painless_end]

I want to die because I am useless member of human society and a burden to my parents who I am currently living with

I wish I had never been born

 

[Reach]

I think the lack of a specific amount of neurotransmitters in the brain could be a factor. Both dopamine and serotonin is key for a person to be happy, and if both are low then you might be prone to thoughts like this. If a person just wants to ctb without any reason at all, this is called the "Thanatos Effect" aka "The Call of the Void". Almost all of us have self-destructive thoughts, it could be an instinct. Well this is from my lesson in Psych. I'm glad I learned smth at least.

Is it possible to have suicidal thoughts and/or do it without any major reason that most have?

So is it possible that the brain can be malfunctioning without any outside affect? Like without any environmental problems that could affect it in a way?
I don't mean some genetic defect. I mean the brain can go 'wrong' by itself? I don't believe it can, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Painless_end]

Is it possible to have suicidal thoughts and/or do it without any major reason that most have?

So is it possible that the brain can be malfunctioning without any outside affect? Like without any environmental problems that could affect it in a way?
I don't mean some genetic defect. I mean the brain can go 'wrong' by itself? I don't believe it can, but maybe I'm wrong.

If it's not outright environmental issues or genetic defects, then what could it be ?

 

[Viceroy]

I want to do it cause the displeasure in life greatly outweighs my pleasures. My life has been ruined, my health is shit, I'm extremely lonely and unloved, I have 0 sources of social /emotional fulfilment and I'm uneducated and unemployed on disability. My life is full of pain, emptiness, boredom, loneliness, and lack of trust and faith in humanity. Its really a meaningless existence with nothing that makes up a valuable or worthwhile life. My brain thinks about suicide to avoid a lifetime of poverty, disability/chronic tormenting discomfort, loneliness etc. Its reasonable to not go on living in that situation.

 

[Reach]

If it's not outright environmental issues or genetic defects, then what could it be ?

That's what I'm asking. Like sometimes there are imbalances in our body (for example if our calcium/potassium ionos has an imbalance, our heart can have some problems, but this one is actually due to our environment). But I this chemical imbalances thing in our brain is always due to environmental problems which is mostly out of the individual's control in my opinion. That's why I don't understand the whole concept of drugs for depression.

 

[Homecoming]

@StrokeMyEgoBaby left out sick, poor, retarded, and barbaric religious society on top of the...

various traumas, financial/legal/physical/mental health problems

I live somewhere in (chaotic) Middle East so this "barbaric" terms may not be relevant to you.

 

[RedRed]

Is it possible to have suicidal thoughts and/or do it without any major reason that most have?

So is it possible that the brain can be malfunctioning without any outside affect? Like without any environmental problems that could affect it in a way?
I don't mean some genetic defect. I mean the brain can go 'wrong' by itself? I don't believe it can, but maybe I'm wrong.

Huh...I actually don't know. It's kinda like the Thanatos Effect, but this phenomena is still just a theory so... I guess I'm gonna ask my professor next week. Now I'm curious as well lol

 

[foxdie]

I think I want to die mostly because I've always been deeply nihilistic. I just feel like life is not worth living, it's a sisyphean task with few rewards and constant pain. Not only my own but all the suffering in the world. It crushes me on the daily.

 

[Deformationalplagio]

Im deformed and because of how evolution works im not in a position to reproduce. We see this in animals too deformed animals are usually killed, neglected or even kill themselves. In my case its common sense and only natural to feel this way.

 

[Reach]

Im deformed and because of how evolution works im not in a position to reproduce. We see this in animals too deformed animals are usually killed, neglected or even kill themselves. In my case its common sense and only natural to feel this way.

I'm wondering if it's possible for deformed people to get legal assisted suicide?

I'm also curious who could be considered 'deformed'? I mean I have facial asymmetry but I don't know how to get an evaluation and be officially labeled as deformed?

 

[KleinerWolf]

Is it possible to have suicidal thoughts and/or do it without any major reason that most have?

So is it possible that the brain can be malfunctioning without any outside affect? Like without any environmental problems that could affect it in a way?
I don't mean some genetic defect. I mean the brain can go 'wrong' by itself? I don't believe it can, but maybe I'm wrong.

I think so.
It'd be rare since most people have a reason/problem/something that triggers them.

 

[muffin222]

This is an unorthodox opinion, but I feel like suicidal thoughts/ideation serve a purpose in that they alert us that whatever stressor, situation, issue, or challenge we're facing exceeds our brain's capacity to cope with it. The suicidal thoughts are like an alert system telling us that we're suffering beyond what our coping skills can adequately handle, whether that's due to trauma, mental illness, genetics, body chemistry, etc.

Ideally, we heed this "warning" and either work to gain new coping skills or find more suitable solutions to lessen the suffering- or, we somehow leave the situation we're in that's causing the suffering, if that's possible. But, that doesn't or can't always happen for various reasons, so the end result is often either chronic suicidal thoughts or ctb

 

[KleinerWolf]

That's what I'm asking. Like sometimes there are imbalances in our body (for example if our calcium/potassium ionos has an imbalance, our heart can have some problems, but this one is actually due to our environment). But I this chemical imbalances thing in our brain is always due to environmental problems which is mostly out of the individual's control in my opinion. That's why I don't understand the whole concept of drugs for depression.

I don't trust drugs when it comes to mental health,
but then again,....

@StrokeMyEgoBaby left out sick, poor, retarded, and barbaric religious society on top of the...

I live somewhere in (chaotic) Middle East so this "barbaric" terms may not be relevant to you.

Yeah that basically goes under the "physical"category,
by physical I was referring to the health/circumstantial factors.

P.S. I lived in China, not that great either.

Im deformed and because of how evolution works im not in a position to reproduce. We see this in animals too deformed animals are usually killed, neglected or even kill themselves. In my case its common sense and only natural to feel this way.

I'm deformed on my ear and also lose half of my hearing,
my deformity perhaps not regarded as severe,
but know that I can relate to how you feel.

I'm wondering if it's possible for deformed people to get legal assisted suicide?

I'm also curious who could be considered 'deformed'? I mean I have facial asymmetry but I don't know how to get an evaluation and be officially labeled as deformed?

When it's bad, you'd be able to tell.

I don't think it's a major concern to get officially certified...

all I can say, deformity is unwanted and makes life more challenging.
It takes enormous strength to carry on,

I don't think deformity alone can gain you access to assisted suicide.
My perception is that even the disability support seems strict if you are suffering in a way but it doesn't directly affect your ability to work.
I don't know if this makes sense.

This is an unorthodox opinion, but I feel like suicidal thoughts/ideation serve a purpose in that they alert us that whatever stressor, situation, issue, or challenge we're facing exceeds our brain's capacity to cope with it. The suicidal thoughts are like an alert system telling us that we're suffering beyond what our coping skills can adequately handle, whether that's due to trauma, mental illness, genetics, body chemistry, etc.

Ideally, we heed this "warning" and either work to gain new coping skills or find more suitable solutions to lessen the suffering- or, we somehow leave the situation we're in that's causing the suffering, if that's possible. But, that doesn't or can't always happen for various reasons, so the end result is often either chronic suicidal thoughts or ctb

Sounds accurate to me.

 

[TrailerTrash]

This pretty much describes how it's working for me ......... Summary - no belongingness, high burdensomeness, and now thanks to SS and other helpful reference sites .... acquired capability.

The interpersonal-psychological theory of suicidal behavior: Current empirical status

The interpersonal-psychological theory proposes that an individual will not die by suicide unless s/he has both the desire to die by suicide and the ability.

www.apa.org

 

[KleinerWolf]

Mankind is depressed as we were made to be warriors, hunt for food, fight with swords and be in the nature! We became slaves of technology and barely vegetables now. We don't do any thinking we don't have that survival instinct or is barely disappearing as we evolve into what I dunno. And hope it not here to see it! X

imo thinking is only good when you create/(discover) a problem and able to solve it.
else it'd probably be better off keeping it simple,
reflecting from my own experience of course...

This pretty much describes how it's working for me ......... Summary - no belongingness, high burdensomeness, and now thanks to SS and other helpful reference sites .... acquired capability.

The interpersonal-psychological theory of suicidal behavior: Current empirical status

The interpersonal-psychological theory proposes that an individual will not die by suicide unless s/he has both the desire to die by suicide and the ability.

www.apa.org

I believe many people feel this way. I fit into that category for the most part as well.
Still having a glimpse of hope on somehow problem solve though...
Maybe I'm delusional I dunno...

 

[262653]

I guess I'm programmed to avoid pain and suffering. I also believe that death stops the experience, including unpleasant ones. I think of dying as entering the state of dreamless sleep with no pain or pleasure, for an indefinite period of time. Then I compare this neutral state with my life in terms of how desirable these states are. Mostly enjoying is good, mostly not enjoying is bad, neutral is worse than good but better than bad. My life is consistently, prevalently unenjoyable, and my predictions are not promising, so I think that a state of neutral value to me (death) is preferable to life.

Then someone might say that I don't know what happens after death, so I can't really tell if it's better for me to die.
What I have to respond with, is that death is inevitable. So the choice isn't between life and death, but between life and no life.
The effect of suicide on the quality of afterlife (if there is anything like that) is irrelevant to me because I can't tell the likelihood of suicide affecting afterlife negatively (or positively), or the magnitude of such effects, and I don't think there is any way for me of knowing.

Wanting to die isn't enough, of course. Wanting to die goes against self-preservation, probably the drive of my primal brain, I think it's simpler and dumber, but faster and his demands have a high priority, with desire to avoid death being the highest. So I want to die without being able to die, aka being suicidal.
I think of being raped as analogy. There is domination over the unwilling victim without killing the victim, so the victim continuously feels bad. The victim tries to fight back but unsuccessful so far. Wanting this experience to stop but not being able to fight the oppressor urges the victim to look for alternative ways.

There is a popular saying in psychology: "if you can't change the situation, change your attitude to it". That's exactly what coping mechanisms are for.
My mechanisms are mostly distraction, dissociation, and I guess intellectualization, judging by the post I just wrote. Honestly, I don't feel any better now that I did it. Maybe I'll play a video game instead.

 

[Reach]

I don't trust drugs when it comes to mental health,
but then again,....

Yeah that basically goes under the "physical"category,
by physical I was referring to the health/circumstantial factors.

P.S. I lived in China, not that great either.

I'm deformed on my ear and also lose half of my hearing,
my deformity perhaps not regarded as severe,
but know that I can relate to how you feel.

When it's bad, you'd be able to tell.

I don't think it's a major concern to get officially certified...

all I can say, deformity is unwanted and makes life more challenging.
It takes enormous strength to carry on,

I don't think deformity alone can gain you access to assisted suicide.
My perception is that even the disability support seems strict if you are suffering in a way but it doesn't directly affect your ability to work.
I don't know if this makes sense.

Sounds accurate to me.

Being deformed doesn't mean that you can get assisted suicide easily but it's something that can help you to get there (it doesn't mean 100% chance). That's why I asked what counts deformity officially, because if I could get in that category, it's something I could put on my CV for assisted suicide among other things.

 

[Istanbulite]

Nature makes mistakes often. The way that traits develop is through a brutal trial and error process by which the less desirable die off. I do figure that we're trying to die because nature made broken goods. There's all this bullshit about how every life is precious. Those same people still eat meat and behave poorly to less fortunate people.

Not to mention that life is an awful thing to do to an animal. You're gonna end up dead. Yet, the point is meaningless happiness. The never ending pursuit for highs and lows. Give me a fucking break.

/thread

 

[FuneralCry]

I guess I am suicidal as I see life as just being meaningless suffering. My life is only pain and misery, there is nothing positive about me being here. I do not enjoy anything and there is nothing that I look forward to. I simply prefer the sound of non existence as nothing can hurt me then.