Venting If things like addiction, suicidality, narcissism etc. are diseases, why are peoplemso judgmental then?

[KillingPain267]

Nobody condemns a cancer patient for being too weak to work or a dementia patient for being forgetful.

 

[weni]

People usually see cancer or dementia as diseases you can't control, but think mental illness is something you can. In other words, people treat those with mental illness like they're weak and lack the willpower to manage themselves.

 

[cookiencream]

Short answer: religion
Longer answer: People think of themselves as more than their biology. They believe they have a "soul". They don't consider the fact that the brain is exactly like every other organ. It can get sick. This is sort of a direct result of religion and spirituality which has caused most people to believe they're something special apart from their brain.

 

[R. A.]

Nobody condemns a cancer patient for being too weak

Yeah actually no, people actively harass and attack cancer patients.
If you're ill or disabled, people treat you like shit.

 

[KillingPain267]

People usually see cancer or dementia as diseases you can't control, but think mental illness is something you can. In other words, people treat those with mental illness like they're weak and lack the willpower to manage themselves.

And they are simply anti-science then, because it's been proven people's brains are different. There is no choice whatsoever.

Short answer: religion
Longer answer: People think of themselves as more than their biology. They believe they have a "soul". They don't consider the fact that the brain is exactly like every other organ. It can get sick. This is sort of a direct result of religion and spirituality which has caused most people to believe they're something special apart from their brain.

Good point. I actually believe in religion, but I have come to believe in physicalism in regards to humans. The idea of a "soul" is actually a misconception or mistranslation. The original Hebrew texts had no such dualism of a soul-body distinction. What's odd is that modern psychology still makes a huge distinction between mind and body, despite rejecting religion.

 

[TBONTB]

Nobody condemns a cancer patient for being too weak to work or a dementia patient for being forgetful.

Definitely agree there's a difference between obvious biological disease (cancer, dementia) and more subtle (mental illness)

In addition, I think people perceive brain diseases (mental illness) as something that can be treated. Like diabetes, perhaps. So they really want us to take our treatment and try to get better and condemn us for not improving.

 

[KillingPain267]

Yeah actually no, people actively harass and attack cancer patients.
If you're ill or disabled, people treat you like shit.

Yeah, okay. That doesn't surprise me at all. It's actually easy to find perceived causalities between diseases and lifestyle choices. Diabetes, heart patients and lung patients are often judged for having caused their diseases through lifestyle. Even if those causalities are not clear. Also, even if basically all diseases are a result of lifestyle, people should still forgive, tolerate and expend a helping hand, instead of judge. But what can I really expect from humans, lol.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I guess it partly depends on how impactful their 'disease' is on others. Is a cancer patient going about lying to everyone to destroy another person's reputation? Are they stealing from people to feed an addiction?

I think there's still an expectation that we should try to moderate what we know is bad behaviour. Especially when it is harmful to others. And I tend to not believe that all that is done unconsciously. It may be a compulsion but- we are able to break compulsions. People do quit addictive things. You can't quit cancer necessarily. So, the very act of knowingly doing harm against another person and then claiming you can't help it doesn't necessarily hold water.

That's not to say all people who have things like NPD or an addiction behave in those ways. The unfortunate thing is- if you've ever encountered a person whom you suspect does have those things and has behaved appallingly, it can leave you with a negative bias.

Some people's experiences are so extreme that a person has literally changed the course of their life. I became suicidal to begin with because of the behaviour of a (suspected) narcissist. I think simply out of self preservation, after such an experience, many 'victims' of these sorts of people are very cautious to avoid them in the future. Plus, be massively suspicious of them. Who wants to be hurt over and over?

 

[Nightfoot]

Lack of understanding and/or empathy.

 

[KillingPain267]

I guess it partly depends on how impactful their 'disease' is on others. Is a cancer patient going about lying to everyone to destroy another person's reputation? Are they stealing from people to feed an addiction?

I think there's still an expectation that we should try to moderate what we know is bad behaviour. Especially when it is harmful to others. And I tend to not believe that all that is done unconsciously. It may be a compulsion but- we are able to break compulsions. People do quit addictive things. You can't quit cancer necessarily. So, the very act of knowingly doing harm against another person and then claiming you can't help it doesn't necessarily hold water.

That's not to say all people who have things like NPD or an addiction behave in those ways. The unfortunate thing is- if you've ever encountered a person whom you suspect does have those things and has behaved appallingly, it can leave you with a negative bias.

Some people's experiences are so extreme that a person has literally changed the course of their life. I became suicidal to begin with because of the behaviour of a (suspected) narcissist. I think simply out of self preservation, after such an experience, many 'victims' of these sorts of people are very cautious to avoid them in the future. Plus, be massively suspicious of them. Who wants to be hurt over and over?

Well, there is brain cancer that can make a gentle quiet person vulgar and loud, for example. But I get that people might want to separate from such people. Everyone should have the right to association and disassociation. But society forces treatment and/or punishment on people who have behaviors that are hard to control consciously for them, and blame them when they predictably slip up. They are deemed immoral even though they can't really control it.

 

[fedup1982]

Nobody condemns a cancer patient for being too weak to work or a dementia patient for being forgetful.

Society still has a long way to go. Thankfully though, at least in the UK, mental health professionals and benefits authorities understand. They really get it thank fuck

 

[Forever Sleep]

Well, there is brain cancer that can make a gentle quiet person vulgar and loud, for example. But I get that people might want to separate from such people. Everyone should have the right to association and disassociation. But society forces treatment and/or punishment on people who have behaviors that are hard to control consciously for them, and blame them when they predictably slip up. They are deemed immoral even though they can't really control it.

I briefly worked with people with dementia- who could become violent. It wasn't exactly nice to be around but still, it was still easier to look beyond that. Some were frightened and no amount of explaining would get them to understand we were trying to help them. It was easier to feel pity towards them.

I think with certain personality disorders and even addiction, people can be extremely manipulative. I find it hard to believe they aren't conscious of what they're doing.

I'll accept they feel compelled to behave in that way. That they are being driven by very intense urges or paranoia or, whatever else. I'm not claiming to suffer as severley by any means but, I would say I've had borderline eating disorders and tend to be prone to limerence. Both of which create incredibly strong drives to think and do certain things. I don't think my 'issues' affected people enormously but, I could still recognise how toxic those two things were- to me. So, I did and do all I can to keep them under control.

Of the experiences I've had- (a likely) narcissist outright lied about me to anyone they could find. Especially people in authority. About a whole bunch of stuff- some of it fairly serious- that I hadn't done. Now, either they were delusional and they actually thought I had done those things. I tend to doubt that though. They would for example- genuinely damage work of mine and then, blame me for something worse as a smoke screen. That's being consciously mannipulative. Or- more likely- they knowingly did it. They surely know when they're gaslighting people. They must realise they're lying to someone or, about someone to create a reaponse. How do they justify that?

I'll accept it could be a desperate need for attention. I'll accept that a narcissist doesn't just appear. They must have endured sonething to create them but, even then- I think we do have knowledge of our own behaviour. It's like saying those who are sexually abused should be expected to then abuse others. Some do of course but plenty surely do all they can to ensure they don't inflict that harm on another. We know when we're doing something wrong- surely?

With actual brain injury, dementia etc. it is different because the person may literally not realise what they're doing. There was a poor and gentle soul who would keep asking people their names- literally every few minutes because they simply couldn't retain recent memories.

Of course, I still have pity for people who have had a rough life. For some, it does seem inevitable that certain conditions will develop. I still think we have a sense over when we do wrong and hurt others though. Of course, we all slip up now and then. I absolutely have. But then, I don't think it is always right to just excuse ourselves either.

 

[KillingPain267]

I briefly worked with people with dementia- who could become violent. It wasn't exactly nice to be around but still, it was still easier to look beyond that. Some were frightened and no amount of explaining would get them to understand we were trying to help them. It was easier to feel pity towards them.

I think with certain personality disorders and even addiction, people can be extremely manipulative. I find it hard to believe they aren't conscious of what they're doing.

I'll accept they feel compelled to behave in that way. That they are being driven by very intense urges or paranoia or, whatever else. I'm not claiming to suffer as severley by any means but, I would say I've had borderline eating disorders and tend to be prone to limerence. Both of which create incredibly strong drives to think and do certain things. I don't think my 'issues' affected people enormously but, I could still recognise how toxic those two things were- to me. So, I did and do all I can to keep them under control.

Of the experiences I've had- (a likely) narcissist outright lied about me to anyone they could find. Especially people in authority. About a whole bunch of stuff- some of it fairly serious- that I hadn't done. Now, either they were delusional and they actually thought I had done those things. I tend to doubt that though. They would for example- genuinely damage work of mine and then, blame me for something worse as a smoke screen. That's being consciously mannipulative. Or- more likely- they knowingly did it. They surely know when they're gaslighting people. They must realise they're lying to someone or, about someone to create a reaponse. How do they justify that?

I'll accept it could be a desperate need for attention. I'll accept that a narcissist doesn't just appear. They must have endured sonething to create them but, even then- I think we do have knowledge of our own behaviour. It's like saying those who are sexually abused should be expected to then abuse others. Some do of course but plenty surely do all they can to ensure they don't inflict that harm on another. We know when we're doing something wrong- surely?

With actual brain injury, dementia etc. it is different because the person may literally not realise what they're doing. There was a poor and gentle soul who would keep asking people their names- literally every few minutes because they simply couldn't retain recent memories.

Of course, I still have pity for people who have had a rough life. For some, it does seem inevitable that certain conditions will develop. I still think we have a sense over when we do wrong and hurt others though. Of course, we all slip up now and then. I absolutely have. But then, I don't think it is always right to just excuse ourselves either.

It has nothing to do with excusing their behavior. That's another debate. But what do you think should be done with a person like a psychopath whose brain simply cannot sense empathy? Aren't they just sick like any other person with a disease? When you talk about conscious vs. unconscious actions, how do you know someone did something unconsciously or consciously? What even is consciousness? And some people apparently have different levels or experiences of consciousness. Are we really aware of what we do anyway? Science seems to say now that we have no control over what we do at all. We act and even think before our brain processes it and then justifies it afterwards. We just have an illusion of thinking we made a conscious choice, but it was after the fact. Basically we ALL lie to ourselves and others of why we chose vanilla over chocolate.

I briefly worked with people with dementia- who could become violent. It wasn't exactly nice to be around but still, it was still easier to look beyond that. Some were frightened and no amount of explaining would get them to understand we were trying to help them. It was easier to feel pity towards them.

I think with certain personality disorders and even addiction, people can be extremely manipulative. I find it hard to believe they aren't conscious of what they're doing.

I'll accept they feel compelled to behave in that way. That they are being driven by very intense urges or paranoia or, whatever else. I'm not claiming to suffer as severley by any means but, I would say I've had borderline eating disorders and tend to be prone to limerence. Both of which create incredibly strong drives to think and do certain things. I don't think my 'issues' affected people enormously but, I could still recognise how toxic those two things were- to me. So, I did and do all I can to keep them under control.

Of the experiences I've had- (a likely) narcissist outright lied about me to anyone they could find. Especially people in authority. About a whole bunch of stuff- some of it fairly serious- that I hadn't done. Now, either they were delusional and they actually thought I had done those things. I tend to doubt that though. They would for example- genuinely damage work of mine and then, blame me for something worse as a smoke screen. That's being consciously mannipulative. Or- more likely- they knowingly did it. They surely know when they're gaslighting people. They must realise they're lying to someone or, about someone to create a reaponse. How do they justify that?

I'll accept it could be a desperate need for attention. I'll accept that a narcissist doesn't just appear. They must have endured sonething to create them but, even then- I think we do have knowledge of our own behaviour. It's like saying those who are sexually abused should be expected to then abuse others. Some do of course but plenty surely do all they can to ensure they don't inflict that harm on another. We know when we're doing something wrong- surely?

With actual brain injury, dementia etc. it is different because the person may literally not realise what they're doing. There was a poor and gentle soul who would keep asking people their names- literally every few minutes because they simply couldn't retain recent memories.

Of course, I still have pity for people who have had a rough life. For some, it does seem inevitable that certain conditions will develop. I still think we have a sense over when we do wrong and hurt others though. Of course, we all slip up now and then. I absolutely have. But then, I don't think it is always right to just excuse ourselves either.

Our brains reveal our choices before we’re even aware of them: study

www.unsw.edu.au

"an experiment carried out in the Future Minds Lab at UNSW School of Psychology showed that free choices about what to think can be predicted from patterns of brain activity 11 seconds before people consciously chose what to think about."

I think with certain personality disorders and even addiction, people can be extremely manipulative. I find it hard to believe they aren't conscious of what they're doing.

Some of the most dangerous individuals to society is a 7 year old boy with, let's say measles. He needs to be isolated so as not so harm others. But should he be seen as a morally corrupt person with scorn and judgment? Neither he or a person with psychopathy chose to get the diseases.

Some of the most dangerous individuals to society is a 7 year old boy with, let's say measles. He needs to be isolated so as not so harm others. But should he be seen as a morally corrupt person with scorn and judgment? Neither he or a person with psychopathy chose to get the diseases.

Inversely, studies have shown that lifestyle CHOICES such as poor diet, physical inactivity, smoking and doing less stimulating cognitive exercises can contribute to developing Alzheimer's. So, why shouldn't we be judgmental towards Alzheimer's patients? Afterall, they could just have eaten a better diet and gone jogging more. Other old people's memories work fine, so why couldn't theirs? What if they are consciously forgetting things because maybe they are just lazy and not focusing? What if they do it to manipulate and piss off caretakers?

 

[Forever Sleep]

It has nothing to do with excusing their behavior. That's another debate. But what do you think should be done with a person like a psychopath whose brain simply cannot sense empathy? Aren't they just sick like any other person with a disease? When you talk about conscious vs. unconscious actions, how do you know someone did something unconsciously or consciously? What even is consciousness? And some people apparently have different levels or experiences of consciousness. Are we really aware of what we do anyway? Science seems to say now that we have no control over what we do at all. We act and even think before our brain processes it and then justifies it afterwards. We just have an illusion of thinking we made a conscious choice, but it was after the fact. Basically we ALL lie to ourselves and others of why we chose vanilla over chocolate.

Our brains reveal our choices before we’re even aware of them: study

www.unsw.edu.au

"an experiment carried out in the Future Minds Lab at UNSW School of Psychology showed that free choices about what to think can be predicted from patterns of brain activity 11 seconds before people consciously chose what to think about."

Some of the most dangerous individuals to society is a 7 year old boy with, let's say measles. He needs to be isolated so as not so harm others. But should he be seen as a morally corrupt person with scorn and judgment? Neither he or a person with psychopathy chose to get the diseases.

Inversely, studies have shown that lifestyle CHOICES such as poor diet, physical inactivity, smoking and doing less stimulating cognitive exercises can contribute to developing Alzheimer's. So, why shouldn't we be judgmental towards Alzheimer's patients? Afterall, they could just have eaten a better diet and gone jogging more. Other old people's memories work fine, so why couldn't theirs? What if they are consciously forgetting things because maybe they are just lazy and not focusing? What if they do it to manipulate and piss off caretakers?

I suppose there are levels of harmful behaviour really. If a child kicks an animal- they are probably going to be berated for it. The sensible thing to do would seem to be to ask why they did it. Make them think about what it would be like to be that animal.

I don't believe psychopaths are born that way. I suppose they could have a predisposition towards certain traits but I tend to think a lot of personality traits/ disorders come from our upbringing and early experiences. If we are taught or develop seemingly 'wrong' or unwanted behaviours, I think we do need to address them ourselves and with support.

I'm not convinced it's impossible for people to change or not act on our drives. Not all those with paraphilia go on to molest children. People manage to quit even long-term addiction. Presumably then, it's possible. It's not set in stone a person will become this or that.

The brain experiment is intriguing. Can it predict what choice I'll make in 5 years time, 10 years time? I doubt it. Surely, our brain is malleable. It surely reacts to the various stimuli we have given it to date. So- a chicken and egg scenario I suppose.

Is my brain addicted before I start feeding it addictive substances? No- it can't be. Can I be more prone as a person to addictive tendancies? Yes. Via my genes and upbringing. The hope then, is that the world isn't so shit that I need those things to begin with and that I am taught not to over indulge on certain things.

If I binge eat 3 days in a row, chances are, I will carry on it that fashion. If I manage to quit for 5 weeks, chances are, I'll be able to resist. Was it truly fate that allowed me to quit binge eating or, was it me making the choice not to do it?

As to what to do with the more 'dangerous' personality types, I think the behaviour needs to be identified and addressed as soon as it materialises. I think there are studies to predict which people might develop into psychopaths etc.

It isn't fair or easy. It isn't necessarily that person's 'fault' either that they have whatever it is. It is still their fault however if they carry on to say kill animals for fun and then, people. They know it's wrong- they've been told outright that it is! So- it's not about blaming a person for their affliction. It's about addressing their behaviour because of that affliction.

No- we hopefully wouldn't hate the child that contracted measels. However, if they were told to stay at home and why, but they snuck out to play with their friends- they would be in trouble! So would their friends I imagine. They may even die. Is it the child's 'fault' then? Depends how young they are. Depends how much they were told. Blame there would have to be on the parents too for not keeping a better eye on them.

How do we assess whether it's a conscious decission? Take a preconceived crime. The perpetraitor has thought very carefully about how to commit their attrocity. They have also worked out how they intend to cover their tracks so as not to get caught. That shows an awareness that they are about to do something widely considered wrong but, they want to get away with it- possibly to repeat the behaviour. That suggests a very high level of awareness to me.

With my own example. The person from my childhood destroyed something of mine. Even if that was an uncontrollable rage, they then realised that they would get into trouble so, the concocted a total lie about something worse I (hadn't) done. Clever huh? Cunning anyway. Enough to snowball my parents anyway. I simply won't believe all that was unconscious.

A lot of psychopaths, narcissists, sociopaths seem to be extremely intelligent people. How could they be so effective at manipulating people if they weren't? So, they must be aware that their behaviour is seen as callous and cruel by others. If that doesn't bother them, if they don't care about who they hurt, why should we care about them?

We should of course, in order to try and figure out what creates them. If they want help then absolutely, we should do all we can to help one another too. I truly have nothing but respect for people who are self aware and are trying to mitigate certain things they want to do. Like I said before- I felt the need to do that with limerence.

I also question if a psychopath is unempathetic. How can they enjoy being sadistic if they can't sense pain in others? I think it's more that the thrill they get from that is so intoxicating that they just go ahead.

I'm not sure that I do outright hate or blame them though. Like you say- they are probably the result of their circumstances. I can still hate the damage they cause though. I can hate it that this world actually rewards them. Who hasn't come across a (likely) sociopath at work? Either at management or middle management level. They are particularly useful for doing the jobs those with a conscience would struggle with. Sacking people, berating them, cutting their hours etc. Some seem to actually enjoy it.

I still think it's reasonable for people to want to avoid them too. Why offer yourself up to get hurt?

 

[divinemistress36]

Definitely agree there's a difference between obvious biological disease (cancer, dementia) and more subtle (mental illness)

In addition, I think people perceive brain diseases (mental illness) as something that can be treated. Like diabetes, perhaps. So they really want us to take our treatment and try to get better and condemn us for not improving.

Exactly, its assumed its a chemical imblance and just needs meds to level it out

 

[wham311]

Because an asshole addict is still an asshole.

Addiction could be the cause and it tells you what need to be treated but theyre still an asshole for example

 

[KillingPain267]

I suppose there are levels of harmful behaviour really. If a child kicks an animal- they are probably going to be berated for it. The sensible thing to do would seem to be to ask why they did it. Make them think about what it would be like to be that animal.

I don't believe psychopaths are born that way.

You are wrong. They literally don't develop empathy. You are confusing them with sociopaths.

How do we assess whether it's a conscious decission? Take a preconceived crime. The perpetraitor has thought very carefully about how to commit their attrocity. They have also worked out how they intend to cover their tracks so as not to get caught. That shows an awareness that they are about to do something widely considered wrong but, they want to get away with it- possibly to repeat the behaviour. That suggests a very high level of awareness to me.

There are people who can plan and do things during a drug blackout. Like going out and buying more booze but not remembering any of it later. There are also people driving and cooking during sleep walking. There is even a case of a man killing his wife, and saying in court he was doing it while sleep walking. Hos do we know he wasn't telling the truth? These are the most extreme examples but highlight a dilemma and question: how aware are we really?

I also question if a psychopath is unempathetic. How can they enjoy being sadistic if they can't sense pain in others? I think it's more that the thrill they get from that is so intoxicating that they just go ahead.

I don't think you understand what a psychopath is. Yes, they manipulate for their own gain, but they don't understand why they shouldn't. It's just rational for them. It's proven they have no empathy and also no anxiety about social consequences. They will only be violent if you get in their way. They are not all sadistic for enjoyment. You are confusing them with classic serial killers who have many more conditions than just psychopathy.

Because an asshole addict is still an asshole.

Addiction could be the cause and it tells you what need to be treated but theyre still an asshole for example

Everyone is an asshole deep down

I still think it's reasonable for people to want to avoid them too. Why offer yourself up to get hurt?

I didn't say they shouldn't be avoided. That is in fact the only thing we can do. Giving them moralistic sermons on why they should be good little angels instead won't help, that's my whole point. Especially when none of us are perfect ourselves. We should avoid them like we avoid a rabid wolf in the forest. But can be blame it for being rabid? Not really.

Now to the fact that I mention suicidality in the title: society also thinks they can rationalize, moralize and psychologize suicidality away. But aren't you tired of that by now? I've tried all the treatments, but I still fall back to suicidal ideation, paradoxically enough, especially because treatments don't work. If we just talk about suicide or the right to die we will be treated almost just like society looks at a psychopath. But we may actually just have a disease that pulls us towards suicide.

Is my brain addicted before I start feeding it addictive substances? No- it can't be. Can I be more prone as a person to addictive tendancies? Yes. Via my genes and upbringing. The hope then, is that the world isn't so shit that I need those things to begin with and that I am taught not to over indulge on certain things.

You don't understand what addiction is. You are confusing dependence with addiction. Also, the world or your life can actually be relatively good, objectively, but you'll still long to take some kind of substances if you are an addict. If an addict never touches a substance, they will still feel like something is lacking.

 

[Forever Sleep]

If an addict never touches a substance, they will still feel like something is lacking.

How will they know they are an addict unless they get addicted to something? Do we all not have the potential to become an addict? Although, I would agree that some people are seemingly more susceptible than others.

Maybe it's cynicism but I think a huge amount of people feel as if there is something lacking in life. The unfortunate thing I guess is when we can't fill that gap any other way.

I'll pose another question though- if I may? Presumably, if we aren't in control of what we do, then we aren't responsible for it either? So- every criminal ought to get an insanity plea passed then? Diminished responsibility.

Would you agree that taking responsibility is an important step in rehabilitation? Accepting that they did do something wrong that hurt other people. Analysing why they did it and presumably, making a plan to ensure they aren't triggered to do it again. If their response is- my brain made me do it and, I have no control over what my brain makes me do- should they ever be released from prison? They don't sound at all safe! Do you suppose that is the reality though?

In some instances, I think you're right. I think some particularly cunning criminals will talk the talk of accepting responsibility in order that they can hoodwink the authorities to be released in order to reoffend.

Do you think true 'recovery' from addiction is impossible for all people or, just some? What makes the people who do 'recover' or, not reoffend or, not offend in the first place- when it comes to crime, different? Are they not 'proper' addicts or criminals? I suppose there's that saying that they are forever in recovery rather than recovered because they fear how easy it would be to go back. I sort of get it. I'll always be at the risk of binging. It's always there and, sometimes it flares up. At that point, I either give in to it or, I keep my resolve.

I still think many of us are largely in control of our actions though. Sure, there will be cases where people do commit crimes while asleep or whatever else. Members here have even reported dissociating and downing a whole bunch of pills. I'm sure there are conditions where that can happen.

In some of those circumstances though- are they dissociating when they buy the pills on multiple separate occassions? They probably can't buy that many all at once. When they stockpike them? Knowing they are prone to doing this? Were there no moments of lucidity in all time where they realised what they were doing would lead to a likely OD? Same goes for me with binging. There are certain foods I simply can't be trusted around so- I don't have them in the house. I don't believe that ALL our actions are unconscious. We make hundreds of choices each day. Some of those choices move us dangerously close to losing control. Others, move us away. Have you ever resisted something you really wanted? Then, it shows it's possible. Not pleasant but, possible.

 

[SchizoGymnast]

I think there are two reasons for this double standard:

Mental illnesses tend to affect things that are within voluntary control. People accept that cancer affects cells causing them to divide uncontrollably and that there's no way for the person to control this. However, mental illnesses cause people to do things that *appear* voluntary so, logically, to them, why can't you just try harder? American culture harbors a deeply individualistic streak combined with Protestant work ethic and I believe that's why you see so much blame placed on people for being sick.

Mental illnesses also often make people think and talk and act in ways that may not be harmful but are socially unacceptable. Woman not keeping a clean home because she hoards? Person talking about aliens in a fundamentalist religious society? Scandalous.

 

[claracatchingthebus]

none are real diseases. they are billing codes so the mental health industry can extract money from patients, insurers, employers, and the government

being addicted is a brain state and brains are neuroplastic, if someone stops using long enough they are no longer an addict even if they have a brain that tends to be impulsive and seek out dopamine by nature, suicidality is often caused by situational factors and is not a disease process, narcissism is an imaginary disease based on a greek myth that can't be objectively measured but rather is a way of labeling people that many in society find annoying or difficult. none of these are scientific labels that correspond with objective reality. it's all pseudoscience that gets billed.

 

[bravelytothewinter]

people are very sympathetic to people with illness they themselves think they could have. I.e if you see a schizophernic or manic person saying how they're Jesus, people will mock them and make fun of them. If you see someone dealing with stress or depression or some other condition the think they could have, they are very sympathetic. It's very hard for a "normie" to sympathise with a suicidal person because they've probably never had anything close to those thoughts and thus have no frame of reference why somebody would would want to kill themselves in the first place.

 

[KillingPain267]

How will they know they are an addict unless they get addicted to something? Do we all not have the potential to become an addict? Although, I would agree that some people are seemingly more susceptible than others.

There are studies showing some are born with a dysregulation of dopamine. Almost like they are supposed to increase it with dopami ergic substances. But there is much more. It's like a person with diabetes. They need insulin, otherwise something will feel seriously wrong.

I'll pose another question though- if I may? Presumably, if we aren't in control of what we do, then we aren't responsible for it either? So- every criminal ought to get an insanity plea passed then? Diminished responsibility.

Is a rabid wolf responsible for tearing up a hiker?

Would you agree that taking responsibility is an important step in rehabilitation? Accepting that they did do something wrong that hurt other people. Analysing why they did it and presumably, making a plan to ensure they aren't triggered to do it again. If their response is- my brain made me do it and, I have no control over what my brain makes me do- should they ever be released from prison? They don't sound at all safe! Do you suppose that is the reality though?

That is a different question. We could study how to treat them chemically and genetically. Or we could expell them to an island. Or offer peaceful suicide kits.

Do you think true 'recovery' from addiction is impossible for all people or, just some? What makes the people who do 'recover' or, not reoffend or, not offend in the first place-

They are still studying that. What we know doesn't help against curing addiction is pretty much everything we've tried so far. Moralizing certainly doesn't help.

I still think many of us are largely in control of our actions though.

No, that's just an illusion. Just like the illusion that we exist separate from our bodies. The brain causes this illusion.

 

[popcorn1234]

I believe people are judgmental about it because they look at mental illness as a biological phenomenon (eg, your brain is chemically imbalanced).

This actually leads people to sympathize less with someone with a mental illness, since all they see is the label, they don't see the circumstances that shaped why the person is the way they are today.

I was a psychology major during my undergraduate years. Back then, when I didn't know better, I thought it would give me a better understanding of the human mind. But, as time went on, I realized there were some things I didn't like about it (eg, labels for mental illness, assuming every mental illness is biological in nature) and I found that modern psychology actually closes people off from understanding their mind.

I think modern psychology evolved into what it was today back when a biological cause was introduced on how mental illness develops. After that, there was no focus on the philosophical and spiritual roots of mental illness.

I like psychology before the biological explanation of mental illness permeated the discourse.

I now rely on philosophy and spirituality to understand myself and quite honestly, it's better than anything I learned in psychology.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Is a rabid wolf responsible for tearing up a hiker?

A wolf full stop- rabid or not isn't responsible for tearing up a hiker. It's an animal with instincts. It's rare wolves attack humans anyway. What were they doing to provoke it to attack? Threatening a cub? If it had rabies then- no. The poor thing was reacting under the influence of that.

If it was a scientist that could drink a potion to turn into a wolf and then attack people. And they did it because the taste of the potion was so good or, the experience of being a wolf was so intoxicating, then yes- they are to blame. We're humans. We know right from wrong in most cases. Things that are considered dangerous or harmful to others are often illegal. That's a clue if our upbringing was utterly shit.

Rabies is something that can be tested for though. I'm not sure mental illness and personality disorders are so easy to diagnose. Plus again- not everyone with these disorders acts on them so again- what stops them? Reasoning- surely?

They know it's wrong to rape a child. They know they can become violent under the influence. They know they're on a slippery slope if they start to binge eat (me) or become obsessive about someone. (Also me- limerence.) So- they make a decision in the moment- do I care about the consequences? I find it hard to believe people don't do that.

I still tend to think that we are strongly compelled to do certain things because of our genetics, our life experiences and any didorders that have developed as a result. But, we don't HAVE to act on every bad impulse we get. Sometimes I'll concede that we may not know in the moment it's 'bad' or unwise but again- our behaviours betray the truth. We do these not so great behaviours in secret. Would a rabid wolf wait till they got someone alone to attack them? No- they'd be so overcome with the disease that they lash out at anything anywhere near them. We know stuff we do is bad or unhealthy and, we do it anyway. Me included.

 

[developic]

Short answer: religion
Longer answer: People think of themselves as more than their biology. They believe they have a "soul". They don't consider the fact that the brain is exactly like every other organ. It can get sick. This is sort of a direct result of religion and spirituality which has caused most people to believe they're something special apart from their brain.

Real

 

[KillingPain267]

A wolf full stop- rabid or not isn't responsible for tearing up a hiker. It's an animal with instincts. It's rare wolves attack humans anyway. What were they doing to provoke it to attack? Threatening a cub? If it had rabies then- no. The poor thing was reacting under the influence of that.

If it was a scientist that could drink a potion to turn into a wolf and then attack people. And they did it because the taste of the potion was so good or, the experience of being a wolf was so intoxicating, then yes- they are to blame. We're humans. We know right from wrong in most cases. Things that are considered dangerous or harmful to others are often illegal. That's a clue if our upbringing was utterly shit.

Rabies is something that can be tested for though. I'm not sure mental illness and personality disorders are so easy to diagnose. Plus again- not everyone with these disorders acts on them so again- what stops them? Reasoning- surely?

They know it's wrong to rape a child. They know they can become violent under the influence. They know they're on a slippery slope if they start to binge eat (me) or become obsessive about someone. (Also me- limerence.) So- they make a decision in the moment- do I care about the consequences? I find it hard to believe people don't do that.

I still tend to think that we are strongly compelled to do certain things because of our genetics, our life experiences and any didorders that have developed as a result. But, we don't HAVE to act on every bad impulse we get. Sometimes I'll concede that we may not know in the moment it's 'bad' or unwise but again- our behaviours betray the truth. We do these not so great behaviours in secret. Would a rabid wolf wait till they got someone alone to attack them? No- they'd be so overcome with the disease that they lash out at anything anywhere near them. We know stuff we do is bad or unhealthy and, we do it anyway. Me included.

We are biological machines. A car with broken breaks is dangerous to let out on the street. Can it be repaired, then let's try. If not, then lock it into the garage forever, but we can't sit and moralize about it and say it is evil or tell it to try to fix itself. Consciousness and its deliberations are a result of biological, environmental and genetic conditions, and no less natural, or do you believe in a soul now?

 

[Forever Sleep]

We are biological machines. A car with broken breaks is dangerous to let out on the street. Can it be repaired, then let's try. If not, then lock it into the garage forever, but we can't sit and moralize about it and say it is evil or tell it to try to fix itself. Consciousness and its deliberations are a result of biological, environmental and genetic conditions, and no less natural, or do you believe in a soul now?

Again no- we wouldn't 'blame' the car unless it had intentionally hurt someone. Which- it can't. It isn't conscious. We'd blame the company that designed the car- if the brakes failed.

Which is something I want to address later- I assume you still believe that our ultimate creator/ designer is God. I therefore find it puzzling that you attribute all this (bad in this case) behaviour to various disorders but, don't blame the creator of the organ they originate in. Did God not envisage narcissism, psychopathy, paedophilia?

I still think sometimes, some people do things to intentially hurt others. And, of course we can describe some actions as 'evil'. Raping a person for instance. Molesting a child. There are laws to tell us what things are really bad if we are unsure.

I don't believe it's all unconscious or unchallenged at least- that's why it's wrong. I can't know though so- maybe you're right. Maybe people who commit the most appalling attrocities had no way of stopping themselves or knowledge they were even doing anything wrong.

Again- I'll return to my position on it all. Some people develop incredibly strong urges to act in ways that are harmful to others. They can't help that- no blame there. No accusation of them being evil- WHILE THOSE THINGS ARE THOUGHTS.

At that point though- some do make a decision. They don't all dissociate- surely? Again, it will be influenced by their upbringing, the moral code they have or haven't been given. We can see that they aren't acting impulsively when they plan and do things in secret though. That demonstrates their awareness that what they are about to do is considered wrong.

From then on though, it's going to depend on what action they intend to do as to how society will judge them. If it's a binge on food- society may be disgusted with how fat they are (like I am.) If it's alcohol/ drugs and they can't work the next day- it will piss the people off who have to cover for them eventually. If it's to go out and molest a child- people will consider them a monster and I'm sorry but yeah- I think they deserve that. They have knowingly hurt someone there.

I like the idea of a soul but no, I don't believe. Although, I still find your position curious as someone who I can remember from previous (heated) discussions has a strong faith in God.

If I remember correctly from previous conversations, you have defended God from any blame because it's humans who have chosen to commit evil- right back from when they indulged in that bloody apple. So- if we now actually don't in fact have free will or the power to avert from doing evil. If all our decisions are dictated to by our brains- who created our brains to begin with?

I'm not really sure whether you defend the free will argument when it comes to God- God gave us free will, it's not their fault if we use it to do commit evil. But then, it feels as if you're saying we don't in fact have free will to choose at all.

So- is it all our parents and societies fault instead? But, in turn, they can't control their behaviour either- surely? Unless you want to deny any evil exists at all, then it surely makes sense to try and lay responsibility to stop it happening again so- who do we blame? Where does it originate?

Honestly though, I think we're just going to go around and around in circles. I'm unlikely to change my views and, I don't expect you to change yours either. So, I think we're nearing the 'agree to disagree' point!

I haven't meant to offend you in any of this. I do actually agree that huge amounts of blame does lie with our culture, our upbringing, our shitty circumstances. At the same time though, I've never really even seen the value in shirking responsibility for wrong doing. Neither do I fully believe we all do it unconsciously.

If this is a personal feeling though from your own personal experience then- I have no right to challenge you. If you feel all that has happened to you was unavoidable by you then- you know your circumstances best. I'm not meaning to take a dig at you in any of this.

 

[Pale_Rider]

So I told my case worker a few weeks ago Id like to go back to NYC, and get back on the methadone program. I could tell that was looked down on. She is a wonderful woman, but I can tell thats not something that is really acceptable in here mental programming. Indeed last time I was there I was compelled to go to outpatient programs, and they looked down on it also, but couldn't stop me. I think Ive made it to a point that if Im not going to ctb, I am going to check out of society. Im gonna trash a bunch of my belongings, and even my car at some point will be on the chopping block. These are things that have to be maintained through economic slavery basically is my though on that. There is no point in my participation with society anymore is how I feel these days. If you look at a good number of drug users you will see people who have had some really harsh lives. If like myself we are turning to drugs to be numb, or gain chemical happiness the mental health system has failed us.They have failed us, and will continue to fail us, because they are more worried about trying to dictate what out behaviors look like; namely abstinence from drugs. So yeah the methadone program is legal. I dont want to be a criminal. Its a work around as far as Im concerned. Mental health could easily prescribe me something, but they have that mold they want me to fit in apparently. Thanks for reading this.

 

[KillingPain267]

Again no- we wouldn't 'blame' the car unless it had intentionally hurt someone. Which- it can't. It isn't conscious. We'd blame the company that designed the car- if the brakes failed.

Which is something I want to address later- I assume you still believe that our ultimate creator/ designer is God. I therefore find it puzzling that you attribute all this (bad in this case) behaviour to various disorders but, don't blame the creator of the organ they originate in. Did God not envisage narcissism, psychopathy, paedophilia?

I still think sometimes, some people do things to intentially hurt others. And, of course we can describe some actions as 'evil'. Raping a person for instance. Molesting a child. There are laws to tell us what things are really bad if we are unsure.

I don't believe it's all unconscious or unchallenged at least- that's why it's wrong. I can't know though so- maybe you're right. Maybe people who commit the most appalling attrocities had no way of stopping themselves or knowledge they were even doing anything wrong.

Again- I'll return to my position on it all. Some people develop incredibly strong urges to act in ways that are harmful to others. They can't help that- no blame there. No accusation of them being evil- WHILE THOSE THINGS ARE THOUGHTS.

At that point though- some do make a decision. They don't all dissociate- surely? Again, it will be influenced by their upbringing, the moral code they have or haven't been given. We can see that they aren't acting impulsively when they plan and do things in secret though. That demonstrates their awareness that what they are about to do is considered wrong.

From then on though, it's going to depend on what action they intend to do as to how society will judge them. If it's a binge on food- society may be disgusted with how fat they are (like I am.) If it's alcohol/ drugs and they can't work the next day- it will piss the people off who have to cover for them eventually. If it's to go out and molest a child- people will consider them a monster and I'm sorry but yeah- I think they deserve that. They have knowingly hurt someone there.

I like the idea of a soul but no, I don't believe. Although, I still find your position curious as someone who I can remember from previous (heated) discussions has a strong faith in God.

If I remember correctly from previous conversations, you have defended God from any blame because it's humans who have chosen to commit evil- right back from when they indulged in that bloody apple. So- if we now actually don't in fact have free will or the power to avert from doing evil. If all our decisions are dictated to by our brains- who created our brains to begin with?

I'm not really sure whether you defend the free will argument when it comes to God- God gave us free will, it's not their fault if we use it to do commit evil. But then, it feels as if you're saying we don't in fact have free will to choose at all.

I have abandoned my free will position since then, partly due to our discussions. I'm now a hard determinist, and believe we live in a sort of video game simulation with God as the programmer and player. So whatever happens happens. Maybe because we were created as some kind of entertainment. So, like the Shakespeare quote that life is a stage and we the players. But that doesn't make God evil, because God is not under some kind of standard beyond Him to be judged by. Certainly not by us. Just like the video game designer is not evil for making the Sims and the player not evil for making the characters do certain things. It gives much more peace once we realize we cannot always control everything.

So- is it all our parents and societies fault instead? But, in turn, they can't control their behaviour either- surely? Unless you want to deny any evil exists at all, then it surely makes sense to try and lay responsibility to stop it happening again so- who do we blame?

That's my whole point: why do we have this obsessionn with finding blame, especially judging others? What if things just are and just happen? Should be morally blame weather patterns for creating hurricanes?

I haven't meant to offend you in any of this.

None taken.

 

[Ashu]

The people who are judgmental aren't the people who see them as diseases.