Venting If everyone CTBs then society would collapse!

[TAW122]

This was a statement I've heard online and sometime IRL (many years ago) that came to mind and in this thread I will be dissecting and counter-arguing against it. The statement is essentially "if everyone did what (the person CTB'ing did), then society would collapse!" and while that statement is essentially pro-forced-life, my response to such a statement would be "well, if that is the case, then the so called 'sick' society is actually the problem and does NOT deserve to be upheld and deserves to fall."

My reasoning is that if a society is great on it's own then people will want to contribute and see it thrive, but if it is a "sick and ill" society, then by default, it should falter and another society should take it's place or the betterment of conditions that make someone to want to live. People who live because they are forced to live and tolerate conditions that are deplorable are not (in my view) considered to be enjoying or wanting to live. While another argument would be that then said society should improve itself to the degree that people want to and they should live to make things better, but that is often not the case. Another issue is the 'victim-blaming' that most forced-lifers want to push onto the person complaining about how life (sentience) sucks and how society itself is shame, how it sucks, but will address that point a bit later on. Back onto the previous point, about a sick society is that maybe if it is built on unequal terms, injustices, and other ills, then it needs serious reforms. However, not everyone and in fact, most people don't really impact society enough to make it bearable or create conditions that would make those who want to die to no longer wish to die, nor is it possible to do so for everyone as there are a near infinite amount of suffering that is unique to each individual that cannot be alleviated and it would not be fair to hold said person hostage to a life they never really consented to in the first place just to uphold and keep a sick society running while also appealing to the taboo of the act of CTB itself!

With regards to 'victim-blaming' that is another issue that is prevalent with those who don't fit into society. The problem is not only that they are rejected by society (especially for those who want to fit in but could not), but also that it presumes that society is a healthy and correct one and that dissenting (unpopular) views are often wrong and vilified. It also further adds additional burden and pressure to an already uneven imbalance of power (society and the individual). It also attributes all problems to the individual while ignoring the societal issues themselves!

A case example (different, but related)
Another example, while different but similar in some ways, is where there are people who stated that they are glad they didn't CTB, but what that fails to address is that those who chose NOT to CTB didn't do so out of genuine enjoyment of life (while there are some who do but this point is NOT about those people, but those who still don't genuinely enjoy life itself!), but out of an unintelligent biological instinct (but rather one's self-preservation or survival instinct) that prevents them from dying or so. Of course, this is not speaking for everyone, but only for those who still genuinely wish they were dead but for obvious reasons, do not reveal their true intentions. It is a farcical for forced-lifers to presume that if one dictates one's own personal life to not be worth living, then they must have speak for everyone, which is far from the truth! In fact, they are only speaking about themselves and themselves solely.

So in conclusion, a society that is sick and decrepit doesn't deserve to be upheld by those who blindingly believe that there is always betterment, for that betterment that may never arrive (in one's lifetime or arrives way too late to be of meaningful impact for said person). Furthermore, the antagonization and shaming of desperate individuals do NOT improve society. Of course, if a society is worth supporting and living for, then it would make sense for said individuals or people to continue to want to contribute and/or support it to see it thrive over the years and more. Instead, most people who continue going about upholding society like slaves to the system are not doing so out of genuine fondness and desire for it, but rather shackled by their innate biological, self-preservation (survival instinct) and those in power or so take advantage of such and keep people trapped. The ones who decide to exit the system end up having to do so quietly while risking everything on the line (through the act of CTB).

 

[TAW122]

I'm just going to bump this thread, and I found good post by the existentialgoof person once more (quoted and linked below in the box)

existentialgoof said:

So we have to force people to remain alive - people who never consented to being born - so that society can ignore its failings and injustices? That doesn't seem right. None of us consented to being born, and having to live out an entire life of several decades and pay the costs of maintenance of that life is hardly a minor inconvenience that we're imposing on people. We should all have the right to walk out through the front door when we decide that this ride we never agreed to be on isn't worth what it costs. I don't think that suicide should be unthinkable. It's a philosophically valid choice to make. Life wasn't created by some perfect deity incapable of doing wrong. It was created by random, unintelligent and chaotic forces. There's no reason why a thinking person shouldn't be able to reject it. And if life is worth affirming, then society should be able to make a positive case for it, rather than just silencing all dissent with psychiatric epithet.

I bolded and color-coded the last sentence because it summarizes the argument against the sanctity of life (sentience) itself! In short, basically, sentience and life isn't valuable, and only deemed so by default (without proof of it being valuable). Then society as well as the masses silence any dissent that says otherwise (censorship), which is why we are in the situation we are in now (having to hide our intentions, go behind people's backs secretly, taking unnecessary risks, etc.) We are NOT free to CTB if we have to take undue and unnecessary risks, sneak around in secrecy, and more!

 

[SoverignDreamer97]

"Control the things you can control, one step at a time." ~Suncha Ferriera (Victus Group)

 

[ceilng_tile]

This is a dumb argument. "You should continue suffering so that a society full of horrible people who ignore and mistreat you can go about it's business uninterrupted."

 

[Dejected 55]

I mean, if everyone died then obviously society would collapse because there would be no one left... but maybe they just mean if all the people who are suicidal died... which just leans into how flawed our society is.

Despite what people will say, even good people... our society largely works because it is designed to exploit the weak. We have rich people, the only way you can have rich people is to have poor people. There's no way around that. Either everyone is equal OR some have it better than others. The problem is, too many people frame "equality" as them losing something. Until humanity stops looking at the world that way, we will continue to have rich and poor because the rich need the poor to make the system work.

 

[gottagorightnow]

I agree completely

 

[Zaphkiel]

I mean people are moron if they use this as an argument.
For réal... If everyone CTB, it's obvious the société would collaspe. Because society is composed of People. Even more society is the People. If one or the other is sick then...

 

[rainatthebusstop]

I mean it wouldn't collapse due to a lot of people not wanting to ctb actually. I think we kinda forget that we're outliers on this forum.

Also a society deserves to collapse if it actively lets its weakest, most hurt and most "undesirable" die imo

 

[PanaxMan]

This was a statement I've heard online and sometime IRL (many years ago) that came to mind and in this thread I will be dissecting and counter-arguing against it. The statement is essentially "if everyone did what (the person CTB'ing did), then society would collapse!" and while that statement is essentially pro-forced-life, my response to such a statement would be "well, if that is the case, then the so called 'sick' society is actually the problem and does NOT deserve to be upheld and deserves to fall."

My reasoning is that if a society is great on it's own then people will want to contribute and see it thrive, but if it is a "sick and ill" society, then by default, it should falter and another society should take it's place or the betterment of conditions that make someone to want to live. People who live because they are forced to live and tolerate conditions that are deplorable are not (in my view) considered to be enjoying or wanting to live. While another argument would be that then said society should improve itself to the degree that people want to and they should live to make things better, but that is often not the case. Another issue is the 'victim-blaming' that most forced-lifers want to push onto the person complaining about how life (sentience) sucks and how society itself is shame, how it sucks, but will address that point a bit later on. Back onto the previous point, about a sick society is that maybe if it is built on unequal terms, injustices, and other ills, then it needs serious reforms. However, not everyone and in fact, most people don't really impact society enough to make it bearable or create conditions that would make those who want to die to no longer wish to die, nor is it possible to do so for everyone as there are a near infinite amount of suffering that is unique to each individual that cannot be alleviated and it would not be fair to hold said person hostage to a life they never really consented to in the first place just to uphold and keep a sick society running while also appealing to the taboo of the act of CTB itself!

With regards to 'victim-blaming' that is another issue that is prevalent with those who don't fit into society. The problem is not only that they are rejected by society (especially for those who want to fit in but could not), but also that it presumes that society is a healthy and correct one and that dissenting (unpopular) views are often wrong and vilified. It also further adds additional burden and pressure to an already uneven imbalance of power (society and the individual). It also attributes all problems to the individual while ignoring the societal issues themselves!

A case example (different, but related)
Another example, while different but similar in some ways, is where there are people who stated that they are glad they didn't CTB, but what that fails to address is that those who chose NOT to CTB didn't do so out of genuine enjoyment of life (while there are some who do but this point is NOT about those people, but those who still don't genuinely enjoy life itself!), but out of an unintelligent biological instinct (but rather one's self-preservation or survival instinct) that prevents them from dying or so. Of course, this is not speaking for everyone, but only for those who still genuinely wish they were dead but for obvious reasons, do not reveal their true intentions. It is a farcical for forced-lifers to presume that if one dictates one's own personal life to not be worth living, then they must have speak for everyone, which is far from the truth! In fact, they are only speaking about themselves and themselves solely.

So in conclusion, a society that is sick and decrepit doesn't deserve to be upheld by those who blindingly believe that there is always betterment, for that betterment that may never arrive (in one's lifetime or arrives way too late to be of meaningful impact for said person). Furthermore, the antagonization and shaming of desperate individuals do NOT improve society. Of course, if a society is worth supporting and living for, then it would make sense for said individuals or people to continue to want to contribute and/or support it to see it thrive over the years and more. Instead, most people who continue going about upholding society like slaves to the system are not doing so out of genuine fondness and desire for it, but rather shackled by their innate biological, self-preservation (survival instinct) and those in power or so take advantage of such and keep people trapped. The ones who decide to exit the system end up having to do so quietly while risking everything on the line (through the act of CTB).

This goes into the realm of the rise and fall of empires and explains alot of human history and elite overproduction

 

[TAW122]

@rainatthebusstop Yes, realistically society will not collapse because there are more than enough people to want to stay and keep it running, whether it is genuine desire or not (though that is another tangent). I made this thread since I had some thoughts on an unusual, but not rare argument that I heard somewhere online in the past. I am just giving my two cents and response to such arguments.

@PanaxMan It's true that empires rise and fall, and on a macro level, there are likely many other factors (not necessarily tied to CTB exactly) that would cause that throughout history.

 

[PanaxMan]

@rainatthebusstop Yes, realistically society will not collapse because there are more than enough people to want to stay and keep it running, whether it is genuine desire or not (though that is another tangent). I made this thread since I had some thoughts on an unusual, but not rare argument that I heard somewhere online in the past. I am just giving my two cents and response to such arguments.

@PanaxMan It's true that empires rise and fall, and on a macro level, there are likely many other factors (not necessarily tied to CTB exactly) that would cause that throughout history.

True but those other factors cause ctb to actually happen for selfish and selfless reasons

 

[byec560]

It sounds like some edgelord shit but idc if society falls. I know plenty of other suicidal people and I just see it as me checking out first. It's their decision to follow or not follow, and if enough people follow then maybe life really isn't worth living just in general. I'm not really interested in playing this game of wondering whether my suffering merits it or who can have the biggest pity party.