Discussion I think afterlife is much more probable, than many people see it

[Sadbanana]

Here is my reasoning. If we are concious now and conciousness is a dependent process then one could assume that after death it will form again eventually. Why is it something that could never repeat? Once an event happen you can assume or even count on that it will eventually happen again.

If there is no conciousness after death, then there is no time of nothingness, as you can't experience nothing. Just as after anesthesia you it feels like you just skipped time, after death you probably will immediately get into another experience. Even if in reality unimaginable amount of time might have passed.

 

[Hvergelmir]

If we are concious now and conciousness is a dependent process then one could assume that after death it will form again eventually.

Assuming infinite time and that the universe never reaches an equilibrium, this holds true - but so is anything else that could ever be.

That's a pretty big assumption, though.

 

[Sadbanana]

Assuming infinite time and that the universe never reaches an equilibrium, this holds true - but so is anything else that could ever be.

That's a pretty big assumption, though.

Yes it is. But I would say, absolute entropy is also an assumption. From my point of view it is 50/50, or maybe more accurately an absolute unknown whether or not there is an afterlife. But I don't think believing there is none is any more rational than believing there is.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Depends how you view consciousness really. Whether you view it as a separate entity that can jump from body to body and yet- retain characteristics of itself. Or, whether it's simply an ability of the brain. Just like detecting sound is an ability of the ear.

So, after we die- of course there will be many billion more conscious beings born here. Before we were born, there were many million too. I guess it's down to belief on whether you believe those earlier incarnations or future ones were/ are 'you'.

I tend to think consciousness is simply a function of the brain. So, while I imagine there will be a huge amount of conscious beings born after I die, I don't personally believe that 'I' will have anything to do with them. They will be them- not me. Of course, it's nothing either of us can prove.

I agree that consciousness is certainly weird though. Horrific in a way. That we have the 'power' to become aware that we are in fact aware and trapped inside a meat prison. That feeling will also occur to countless others in the future.

The other thing though is- are newborn babies immediately aware of being conscious? What were your first existential thoughts? Do you have any clear memories even- the first 1 or 2 years of life? My guess is- no. I'd say- while babies are obviously alive and conscious of their own needs, they're not exactly self aware like older children and adults are. So- are we born fully conscious even- or, is it something that develops? Plus, if we've already lived so many millions of years- why are we so naive when we are born? We should all surely be genuises with all that accumulated knowledge and experience.

I guess it also depends on how you view self awareness/ consciousness. If you had been born as a crocodile say- do you think you'd have the same sense of self that you have as a human? If you were born as a jellyfish, would you even have many existential thoughts? It's not to claim animals are stupid but I'm not convinced they are as existentially aware as himans. If you were born as a different gender to different parents in a different country- how would that affect how you develop? Do you think you'd still have the same sense that you are you deep down?

That's an interesting idea though I think. Does your consciousness have a gender identity? How much of what we recognise as 'us' revolves around the physical body we inhabit?

 

[Mooncry]

I tend to agree with you for the most part. I once had a dream where I drank SN and laid down in bed waiting to die. When I "died" in the dream, I immediately woke up in real life, no time in between consciousness states, just instantaneous. I personally believe my real death will be something like that—dying then immediately waking up in some new form of existence. Of course, for me, there is a specific existence I hope to wake up in after death, so maybe it's just wishful thinking.

 

[Sadbanana]

Depends how you view consciousness really. Whether you view it as a separate entity that can jump from body to body and yet- retain characteristics of itself. Or, whether it's simply an ability of the brain. Just like detecting sound is an ability of the ear.

So, after we die- of course there will be many billion more conscious beings born here. Before we were born, there were many million too. I guess it's down to belief on whether you believe those earlier incarnations or future ones were/ are 'you'.

I tend to think consciousness is simply a function of the brain. So, while I imagine there will be a huge amount of conscious beings born after I die, I don't personally believe that 'I' will have anything to do with them. They will be them- not me. Of course, it's nothing either of us can prove.

I agree that consciousness is certainly weird though. Horrific in a way. That we have the 'power' to become aware that we are in fact aware and trapped inside a meat prison. That feeling will also occur to countless others in the future.

The other thing though is- are newborn babies immediately aware of being conscious? What were your first existential thoughts? Do you have any clear memories even- the first 1 or 2 years of life? My guess is- no. I'd say- while babies are obviously alive and conscious of their own needs, they're not exactly self aware like older children and adults are. So- are we born fully conscious even- or, is it something that develops? Plus, if we've already lived so many millions of years- why are we so naive when we are born? We should all surely be genuises with all that accumulated knowledge and experience.

I guess it also depends on how you view self awareness/ consciousness. If you had been born as a crocodile say- do you think you'd have the same sense of self that you have as a human? If you were born as a jellyfish, would you even have many existential thoughts? It's not to claim animals are stupid but I'm not convinced they are as existentially aware as himans. If you were born as a different gender to different parents in a different country- how would that affect how you develop? Do you think you'd still have the same sense that you are you deep down?

That's an interesting idea though I think. Does your consciousness have a gender identity? How much of what we recognise as 'us' revolves around the physical body we inhabit?

I tend to think about conciousness as the fact that you experience anything at all. All knoledge and identity, ability to recognize certain patterns is just something that is created by the brain and will probably die with it. You are constantly changing and most likely are completely different then when you were 5 years old, but tge awareness has stayed the same.

But I can't say whether conciousness is just product of brain or something else entirely. But either way I can't see why it shouldn't eventually be recreated.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I tend to think about conciousness as the fact that you experience anything at all. All knoledge and identity, ability to recognize certain patterns is just something that is created by the brain and will probably die with it. You are constantly changing and most likely are completely different then when you were 5 years old, but tge awareness has stayed the same.

But I can't say whether conciousness is just product of brain or something else entirely. But either way I can't see why it shouldn't eventually be recreated.

It will definitely be created time and time again on this earth. The day we die, babies of all species will be born. I suppose my doubt is whether those future creations will have any of 'us' in them. That hinges on belief largely.

I tend to think not but still, try to keep an open mind. Some things still puzzle me. Why do we have similarly themed dreams? Flying dreams for instance. The even greater phenomenon is that people blind from birth do sometimes (apparently) have visual dreams. In which case- where is that information coming from? That does puzzle me.

But really- if the universe is so huge, I don't see why concious beings of some description shouldn't exist elsewhere. Even after this earth and all its inhabitants die, maybe there will still be life out there. Not convinced it will have any relation to us personally though.

 

[Sadbanana]

It will definitely be created time and time again on this earth. The day we die, babies of all species will be born. I suppose my doubt is whether those future creations will have any of 'us' in them. That hinges on belief largely.

I tend to think not but still, try to keep an open mind. Some things still puzzle me. Why do we have similarly themed dreams? Flying dreams for instance. The even greater phenomenon is that people blind from birth do sometimes (apparently) have visual dreams. In which case- where is that information coming from? That does puzzle me.

But really- if the universe is so huge, I don't see why concious beings of some description shouldn't exist elsewhere. Even after this earth and all its inhabitants die, maybe there will still be life out there. Not convinced it will have any relation to us personally though.

Well, we don't know what makes your conciousness specifically yours. It's not really memories or personality, because you could create a perfect clone of yourself with the same exact brain and memories, but it wouldn't be you.

We don't really even know what creates conciousness in the first place. Quantum phisics? Electrons flowing in brain? The metter we are created from?

Either way it is something specific and there is no reason why the same elements wouldn't connect again and create a concious being once more. But it could take very long, maybe even after the death of this universe and brith of another one. But if you suppose that infinity exists it's almost inevitable.

 

[NaturalBornNEET]

 

[PI3.14]

See, if the universe is eternal, and by the universe I mean the most fundamental blocks of matter/energy, then us existing again is guaranteed.

Heat death, like you said, doesn't mean nothing will exist, something will always exist, it's just that we don't know for sure the properties the universe will exhibit by then, it could be the case that some properties only emerge under the conditions of the heat death, ones that can shape matter into how we know it.

I also agree that us, as well as our memories and thoughts, are nothing but a specific arrangement of matter.

The question I struggle with though, is who am I? Can I exist under different circumstances that those I was born into? Could "I" have existed in a different body, circumstances, culture, and still be the same me? When I say the same me, I mean the same conscious entity. I'm not the same as my younger self in terms of so many things, but my current self and younger self are of the same conscious entity, one conscious agent.

The question is, how many different lives, if any, I can exist in and still be me? What if me can only exist within the exact same circumstances I exist under now? This means that if I ever come to be in the far future, I'll be going through the same story again, unless me can exist under other circumstances and still gave the same agency.

It's basically the problem of identity in philosophy.

My current belief is the following: We become conscious at a certain point in time, so we're not conscious right out of the womb. The moment we become conscious is the moment "I" us created, i.e. the agency.

If that is true, then as long as the exact atoms formation we had when we became conscious can exist under different set of events, then there is a possibility of you, for example, existing under better circumstances next time.

However, if the atoms formation we had when we became conscious can only exist under the circumstances that we had in this life, then it's unfortunate news, cus this mean whenever we exist, the same story will be told again, and again.

I replied to a similar post few days ago.

 

[Forever Sleep]

It's not really memories or personality, because you could create a perfect clone of yourself with the same exact brain and memories, but it wouldn't be you.

It couldn't have the same consciousness- presumably- because we're already 'using' it at that moment. I'm not sure that lends weight to it being someone else's consciousness though.

Again though- do you even see consciousness as having a personality to begin with? How can it have one without memories and experiences and a vehicle to operate in? Is it simply more like a generic battery that makes a sentient being 'go'. Then- is it 'us' at all? Isn't it just a non feeling/ thinking component?

But again, I don't know either. I'm not totally opposed to the idea we are all connected as part of one big consciousness even but again- I'm not keen on that idea either! Not that that doesn't make it true but, seeing as there's little evidence to support any theory, all we have is reasoning and hypothesis. I guess we all side with the version we most want to be true maybe. Do you want there to be an afterlife?

I guess then, it touches on the spiritual aspect. Why would we need to experience mortal life at all if at the centre of us is an immortal spiritual being? I don't know. I have more questions than answers!

 

[Sadbanana]

It couldn't have the same consciousness- presumably- because we're already 'using' it at that moment. I'm not sure that lends weight to it being someone else's consciousness though.

Again though- do you even see consciousness as having a personality to begin with? How can it have one without memories and experiences and a vehicle to operate in? Is it simply more like a generic battery that makes a sentient being 'go'. Then- is it 'us' at all? Isn't it just a non feeling/ thinking component?

But again, I don't know either. I'm not totally opposed to the idea we are all connected as part of one big consciousness even but again- I'm not keen on that idea either! Not that that doesn't make it true but, seeing as there's little evidence to support any theory, all we have is reasoning and hypothesis. I guess we all side with the version we most want to be true maybe. Do you want there to be an afterlife?

I guess then, it touches on the spiritual aspect. Why would we need to experience mortal life at all if at the centre of us is an immortal spiritual being? I don't know. I have more questions than answers!

Yes, we don't know any of that unfortunately. We just have no clue what conciousness is. There are many definitions of conciousness, but what I'm talking about is the capacity for subjective experience. So I don't really think there is any personality at its core, it's just awareness.

I don't know if there is some sort of universal conciousness like budhism claims. Because you don't experience me and I don't experience you, there is a clear boundry, so it doesn't make sense to me.

 

[asaṅkhata]

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