Venting I don't have gender-dysphoria but being a (low-value) man sucks

[Octavia]

Don't we all.

Fair enough.

 

[Moonomyth]

Keep denying reality. Humans are hierarchical and males fight for dominance/superiority/value in all areas, while women decide on the partner. Even though women also decorate themselves and work strenuously for improvements in appearance, the rate of divorce split by gender plus the shocking difference in standards in online dating shows that women have more weight in a romantic or sexual relationship. They're pickier in the beginning and they'll leave with more ease.

I think you're going to have a hard time evading this, haha. The data is out there. Women have sexual/reproductive privileges. The downsides are menstruation, pregnancy and rape, which does sound pretty horrific. But in 1st world countries the gynocentrism of "progressives" has offset those feminine reproductive trade-offs.

Since you've given me permission, I will do so:

Humans aren't hierarchical and status-based, your claims are wrong, and the data doesn't exist.

Thank you for allowing me to state this, couldn't have done it without you.

 

[ScissorYoda]

I know of too many exceptions to what you're describing plus see hundreds more in just one day outside for it to be even close to the truth. I think you have a case of tunnel vision, the data and your interpretation of it are 2 different things.

 

[melodrama]

In fact, women are not that demanding in relationships. All of those things you said are things that other men have put in your head, only to make you feel worse about yourself. These thoughts will influence you to reach your limit. Seems to be a very deplorable fate.

 

[draingang]

What's the saddest for me is that a lot of men have started realising this issue recently but instead of looking for ways to heal, change and grow they turn to the likes of Andrew Tate and Jordan Peterson who only uphold those views but they repackage it to make it seem like they care about other men when really they're part of the problem. I hate being a man and I hate the struggles it comes with, but I try to stay in the real world and not fall for this sigma male bullshit. I've seen it happen to my cousin who used to be my best friend when we were younger, but now it's just hard to talk to him, cause he's so far gone.

 

[orca87]

I know of too many exceptions to what you're describing plus see hundreds more in just one day outside for it to be even close to the truth. I think you have a case of tunnel vision, the data and your interpretation of it are 2 different things.

At least, I'd say that modern dating is crap. Dating apps have a huge impact on the perception of the data. And based on experience, I'd say that dating apps work in the way the "data" is interpreted here.
However, that is inconclusive because these apps are intermediaries – in other words: amplifying the dating "economics" discussed here brings cash to the operators of such apps.

All that being said, I'd love to see a "debunk" of the "black/whatever pill" interpretation of the data. I agree that reality works differently and in my social circle, I, too, know many counter-examples. However, forming a mental model and getting rid of this toxic interpretation could be beneficial for some. So what are some good arguments here?

 

[Arvinneedstodie]

Being below average sucks for any gender but... IMO, the worst part is that society sees men as expandable. Except the rich and powerful elites of course. We're all just gender signs and age numbers on a giant spreadsheet. When numbers need to be balanced, young men always get allocated the least resources and the first to be sacrificed. Because young men are precieved to be so fking "strong", no one wants to hear us complain, not least the women.

We've all heard the saying "wars are waged by old men and fought and died by young men.". Well, the old men part can be changed to old women, but the young men part will never change for as long as humanity is confined to our physical bodies.

 

[Looking]

All of those things you said are things that other men have put in your head,

Don't you women know? The best way to understand the deep, complicated and diverse inner workings of a woman's mind is.... a man, of course. /s

 

[orca87]

Being below average sucks for any gender but...

The question is, "what is average".

There are so many "invisible" people – from the guy flipping patties at McDonald's to the single mom trying to make it through the day with two jobs. But still, everyone has Instagram. So – on average – people think less of themselves because they see what "is possible" for anyone (not everyone) but them.

And again, dating apps work the same way.

We're building a society of envy-based low self-esteem people. And then, people try to get self-esteem by claiming to be in a sub-culture that "matters" and demand attention…

 

[kindalone]

What's the saddest for me is that a lot of men have started realising this issue recently but instead of looking for ways to heal, change and grow they turn to the likes of Andrew Tate and Jordan Peterson who only uphold those views but they repackage it to make it seem like they care about other men when really they're part of the problem. I hate being a man and I hate the struggles it comes with, but I try to stay in the real world and not fall for this sigma male bullshit. I've seen it happen to my cousin who used to be my best friend when we were younger, but now it's just hard to talk to him, cause he's so far gone.

I feel like it's difficult for men to navigate this world because there are no proper resources for them to learn this stuff. School systems haven't changed for decades. Fathers aren't doing their jobs. You only get this information through coaches and seminars now. And they benefit from you not really getting the right information. Kinda like with dating apps that benefit from people failing to get into an exclusive relationship. These guys benefit from making the men even more dysfunctional and then blame women and/or feminism for it.

I've talked about this once with someone and he told me about progressives being good at telling people what not to do but fail to give proper guidelines on how to do it. So you're stuck just trying shit out in hopes that it will work. Risk-averse people will be stay inactive and would rather pay these influencers to teach them how. Maybe that needs to change.

The question is, "what is average".

There are so many "invisible" people – from the guy flipping patties at McDonald's to the single mom trying to make it through the day with two jobs. But still, everyone has Instagram. So – on average – people think less of themselves because they see what "is possible" for anyone (not everyone) but them.

That's a good point. Nobody even knows what average is anymore. We get tons of information through social media and entertainment. Most of these people we see are going to be above average. We don't even notice the average guy/girl anymore.

 

[Truth1234]

I am female and have female friends who strictly pay for themselves in dates and lead independent lives. You may not be looking at the correct places. You will not find women you want to date and have meaningful conversations with on online platforms. Have you tried volunteering or going to book clubs or helping out people in general? Kindness and intelligence maybe sometimes more valuable than money.

 

[SamTam33]

In fact, women are not that demanding in relationships. All of those things you said are things that other men have put in your head, only to make you feel worse about yourself. These thoughts will influence you to reach your limit. Seems to be a very deplorable fate.

I was thinking this as well. Especially with where we mainly see these so-called high value men: on the big screen and in children's fairy tales.

Most of those characters and superhero types are written and developed (and directed) by men.

They've introduced and controlled the narrative of "what women want" for generations, going back to the fairy tale Prince Charming types. Men wrote most of those stories.

Perhaps it was a form of projection for who they wished to be. I could definitely see writers and other sensitive men modeling their male (AND FEMALE) characters after who and what they wanted.

Now it's being peddled as this impossible standard that women are seeking, when it was actually an image and a standard created by men.

 

[Disappointered]

Don't you women know? The best way to understand the deep, complicated and diverse inner workings of a woman's mind is.... a man, of course. /s

You don't have to be something to have an informed opinion about it and in any case women's self-awareness can just as easily be biased.

 

[Looking]

You don't have to be something to have an informed opinion about it and in any case women's self-awareness can just as easily be biased.

Yes. Women's views on themselves and their community is going to be biased.... Man... Do I really have to explain that?

It's not about being a woman to understand women (a claim I've never made, by the way...); it's being a man, telling women that "they don't understand", or they're straight up lying, or that they will never experience what that man is experiencing, and that their life is "easier" compared to them, and that they don't understand that "most women" are like this, and so on.

If you don't understand why that's an issue, then I can't teach you common sense.

 

[SexyIncél]

All that being said, I'd love to see a "debunk" of the "black/whatever pill" interpretation of the data. I agree that reality works differently and in my social circle, I, too, know many counter-examples. However, forming a mental model and getting rid of this toxic interpretation could be beneficial for some. So what are some good arguments here?

I'm asking around if anyone knows research. Theories mentioned so far:

1. women want attractive men, leaving nothing for sufficiently unattractive men (black pill)
2. feminism upset the balance of power so guys don't get gals (red pill)
3. lonely men psych themselves out with self-defeating beliefs (fatalism)
4. women more willing to be single than men (bargaining power)
5. women's friends more satisfying than men's friends (male rivalry)
6. lonely men actually choosier than they claim (unreliable narrator)
7. many men can't afford relationships because workers/poor got smashed since the 70's (neoliberalism)
8. people have less time, so superficiality reigns and relationships less varied (overwork)
9. community institutions smashed except church, less chances to bond around shared interests (community)
10. though equally violent, men physically stronger, so women more scared (abuse)
11. lonely men often do something that disturbs women (needs training)
12. lonely men don't signal enough interest (aloofness)
13. lonely men need to speak with 100 gals to get 3, and stop getting discouraged (salesmen)
14. men more powerful economically, women sometimes more powerful domestically (balanced patriarchy)
15. guys can become more attractive/valuable (higher value man)
16. men understand women less than women understand men (ignorance)
17. mainstream media did something sneaky (propaganda)
18. superficial people dominate (normies)
19. dating apps have too many men, not enough women (apps)
20. men's jobs don't have enough women (sausagefest)

In a better world, we'd team up to try fixing each other's problems... partners megathread on steroids

 

[graile]

Ok I'm gay so I don't really have an idea... but when girls look for guys isn't the most important thing just how hard they work and being fatherly etc, not vanity like having a pretty face? That's something girls should worry about more than guys, but even then girls should worry more about having all the important motherly and homemaking skills. You're looking for some weird girls if their criteria is actually "decent penis, be a sexgod, all while having have less pleasure and fewer orgasms per session than your partner." Wtf. So, "man up" and stop being vain...


Also, I'd avoid dating apps... It's literally just finding people based on how they look with no discussion involved until after that part. Probably not helpful if you don't think you're physically attractive. Find people at church or something... If ur discontent with the vanity of the modern world maybe christianity is the answer honestly.

 

[imcurious]

As a woman, and to be completely honest, women don't have that many standards the way you're listing. Tbh he doesn't even need to really pass a looks-test. It's more so, do you make a woman feel special? Do you give her time and attention? If you can do that, I think those weigh MUCH heigher than an "alpha" man. Think about Pete Davidson lol. He's not the best looking, but he can sway any girl because of his confidence and ability to make those girls feel like the best one on the planet.

You don't need to be making ridiculous amounts of money, but I will say that most women appreciate a provider-sort of man. This is different from a sugar daddy. A provider is simply someone who can afford his and her basic needs. He does not necessarily need to have the ability to buy her designer handbags. Women appreciate an ambitiuous man who is honest and tries his best.

I promise most women are not all that vain. Social media datings apps are awful by default and don't prove your inherent worth as a partner.

 

[Ghostofthepast]

You know this hits too close to home for me being a ugly man without anything anyone would want in Me god I just want to be dead

Ok I'm gay so I don't really have an idea... but when girls look for guys isn't the most important thing just how hard they work and being fatherly etc, not vanity like having a pretty face? That's something girls should worry about more than guys, but even then girls should worry more about having all the important motherly and homemaking skills. You're looking for some weird girls if their criteria is actually "decent penis, be a sexgod, all while having have less pleasure and fewer orgasms per session than your partner." Wtf. So, "man up" and stop being vain...


Also, I'd avoid dating apps... It's literally just finding people based on how they look with no discussion involved until after that part. Probably not helpful if you don't think you're physically attractive. Find people at church or something... If ur discontent with the vanity of the modern world maybe christianity is the answer honestly.

Sadly no my ex left me cheated on Mr I was a great dad to her kid I worked 60hrs a week did all the cooking cleaning ect and got thrown away all that just isn't enough anymore

 

[rue]

sigh.. another one of these posts.. there are becoming more prevalent here. i have never even seen men you guys describe in my life.. if i see one of those zeus males i'll ask for a photograph, been hearing much abt them/or him or whatever the fuck. but in all seriousness, if all this is not working out for you then shift your attention to something else. what else can be said?

 

[Ashu]

("low-value" based on the garbage valuations of the garbage society we are stuck with that seem remarkably in sync with garbage nature in a garbage universe)

Love your style.

 

[kindalone]

You know this hits too close to home for me being a ugly man without anything anyone would want in Me god I just want to be dead

Sadly no my ex left me cheated on Mr I was a great dad to her kid I worked 60hrs a week did all the cooking cleaning ect and got thrown away all that just isn't enough anymore

I'm sorry this happened to you. Unfortunately, life can be cruel like that and despite doing everything right, things still go wrong with no fault of your own. It wasn't your fault at all.

 

[Disappointered]

Yes. Women's views on themselves and their community is going to be biased.... Man... Do I really have to explain that?

It's not about being a woman to understand women (a claim I've never made, by the way...); it's being a man, telling women that "they don't understand", or they're straight up lying, or that they will never experience what that man is experiencing, and that their life is "easier" compared to them, and that they don't understand that "most women" are like this, and so on.

If you don't understand why that's an issue, then I can't teach you common sense.

You're right, I don't understand. It seems like an empty statement of gratuitous self-congratulation for voicing a presumption about how terrible the men who complain about women are.

Love your style.

Thanks.

 

[Ghostofthepast]

I'm sorry this happened to you. Unfortunately, life can be cruel like that and despite doing everything right, things still go wrong with no fault of your own. It wasn't your fault at all.

It was it was both of our faults I wasn't perfect no one is

 

[İnilerim]

There is something I've noticed about incel-adjacent discourse recently, and it's the obsessive need to put everything related to interhuman relationships into neat, easy-to-understand boxes with labels and numbers on them.

 

[SexyIncél]

Some of us discussed male pride. The desire to cause immense pleasure. Frustrated when your life becomes: "a job, go home, eat some food, be unloved and unwanted, nobody wants to be around you, check to see if you have any matches on online-dating, then go to sleep."

If we invert his description of the high-value male... maybe that describes a fantasy female who causes immense pleasure? Naturally, being the male version of that seems like a good way to get hetero women to violently enjoy you!

Such ambition can motivate men to be great lovers. Satisfying some lucky woman's brains out. With breakfast in bed, massages, beastiali breeding bukakk bubblebaths...

Or crack into cynical pickup artists, pumping-and-dumping each woman in their spreadsheets. Or just blow their brains out after posting goodbye messages on notorious death-cult incel hangouts like Sanctioned Suicide, covered by New York Times and brave youtuber Tantacrul

There is something I've noticed about incel-adjacent discourse recently, and it's the obsessive need to put everything related to interhuman relationships into neat, easy-to-understand boxes with labels and numbers on them.

Referring to my post? I like to think of it as poetic compression, applied to actual problems people suffer from. I'm sure a German like you appreciates boxes, labels and numbers. The basis of your architecture

I also use poetic compression to convey how my merciless tongue will lap up people's pre-cum. Right before it does so. As part of my career. But that seems inappropriate here

 

[Looking]

You're right, I don't understand. It seems like an empty statement of gratuitous self-congratulation for voicing a presumption about how terrible the men who complain about women are.

Don't you women know? The best way to understand the deep, complicated and diverse inner workings of a woman's mind is.... a man, of course.

 

[ChildrensITV]

Ok I'm gay so I don't really have an idea... but when girls look for guys isn't the most important thing just how hard they work and being fatherly etc, not vanity like having a pretty face?

Why would you naturally assume that human nature is that meritocratic and just-worldlike? "You can be anything if you just try", "You can compete with women's best options - wealthy, intelligent, tall, goodlooking guys - because you do 2 hours overtime at CorpoTech". Wow. I would love to live in your world. I probably wouldn't be suicidal if I thought the world were how you think it is.

That's something girls should worry about more than guys, but even then girls should worry more about having all the important motherly and homemaking skills. You're looking for some weird girls if their criteria is actually "decent penis, be a sexgod, all while having have less pleasure and fewer orgasms per session than your partner." Wtf. So, "man up" and stop being vain...

Anyone who dates men - be it gay men or straight women - want their man to have a decent penis and be a sexgod. At least he needs to meet a certain threshold. That is not the whole equation. He needs to be physically attractive too. Or why else would you want to get to know him? Cuz he reads books? You can find goodlooking guys who read books. When a woman is riding a man cowgirl-style, she is thinking of his physicality and masculinity, not which chapter of a book he is at this week.

Telling me to man up, just like society does. So helpful. How does it feel to be part of the problem? What does manning up even mean. Maybe you can go into specifics. I bet they are well-meaning things that are the equivalent of what people tell you to get over your suicidal ideation?

Also, I'd avoid dating apps... It's literally just finding people based on how they look with no discussion involved until after that part. Probably not helpful if you don't think you're physically attractive. Find people at church or something... If ur discontent with the vanity of the modern world maybe christianity is the answer honestly.

Good point but in 2023, it's hard to meet women anywhere else. Have you seen the tiktoks of unattractive men looking at a woman in the gym and ending up being labelled a creep? Women HATE being approached by guys below their standard cuz it makes them feel ugly. The only way to minimize the embarassment is dating apps.

I like how you said "don't think you're physically attractive". Society is not even willing to admit that you can be ugly. We think it's a perception in your head.

It's funny how people in this thread would agree that society bullshits us with: "If you think you're depressed, just try going for a walk and being positive. Things will work out if you keep at it" but can't see how society tells men: "If you're part of the growing 30% of men who can't get a girlfriend anymore, it's cuz you're doing something wrong, and need to man up".

 

[targz]

but hey, weve got eachother right?

Damn right, we stick together

 

[borderline-feline]

Anyone who dates men - be it gay men or straight women - want their man to have a decent penis and be a sexgod.

Blatantly false. I don't even care whether or not a man HAS a penis. There's also no such thing as a "sexgod". The key to being good at sex isn't a person's body, but their listening skills and ability to communicate.

At least he needs to meet a certain threshold. That is not the whole equation. He needs to be physically attractive too. Or why else would you want to get to know him? Cuz he reads books? You can find goodlooking guys who read books. When a woman is riding a man cowgirl-style, she is thinking of his physicality and masculinity, not which chapter of a book he is at this week.

Masculinity is overrated. Men who are overly concerned with being hypermasculine tend to be boring and impossible to get along with. Relationships aren't just about sex; talking about a book you're both reading lasts much longer than sex ever will.

It's funny how people in this thread would agree that society bullshits us with: "If you think you're depressed, just try going for a walk and being positive. Things will work out if you keep at it" but can't see how society tells men: "If you're part of the growing 30% of men who can't get a girlfriend anymore, it's cuz you're doing something wrong, and need to man up".

The thing you're doing wrong is that you're centering your self-worth around whether or not women want to fuck you. That's what women think is pathetic. It doesn't even sound like you want a girlfriend; it sounds like all you're interested in is sex.

The average person isn't so material and shallow that they get into relationships just for sex. It's about the emotions.

I don't think you need to "man up"; it's an antiquated and sexist phrase anyway. I think that what you need is a reality check.

 

[whatevs]

… You need therapy.

Haha, that's rich coming from another suicide forum member. You need to stick to the discussion or shut the fuck up with your ridiculously placed mental illness insult in a place like this.

I didn't get personal so why did you? Do YOU need therapy? Do you need something so that you don't want to die? Or should you don't go there at all and receive a warning?