I don't feel like I'm being manipulated here.

[Tintypographer]

I want to share that I was told that the people on this site are "the most manipulative on the planet." That "they are lying about having lost a child".

I have lost a child to suicide, she used a gun and was never part of this website I found it later and joined myself.

I have never tried to convince anyone to commit suicide and I have never been manipulated into it. Not one single person base ever tried to convince me to buy products on here and no one has recruited me as an incel which I am also not.

I've reached out to this individual @kelli and offered to debate her at my university in a moderated forum using only facts regarding statistics, treatment resistant depression and numbers but she won't. She claims anyone but her is lying about losing a child. That's kind of sad considering that suicide is the second leading cause of death for those 14-25.

WISQARS Explore Fatal and Nonfatal Data

WISQARS Fatal and Nonfatal data Explorer

wisqars.cdc.gov

I can state factually that very few of those deaths were caused by SN and cartsinly not for sale by members of sanctioned suicide.

The single biggest cause of death by suicide in this age bracket is firearm and that's what my daughter was a victim of.

I think that is is horrible to call me a manipulator, act as though I am lying and a key part of "convincing children to harm themselves".


Legislators live things that have little impact. Making suicide discussion forums illegal is an awesome thing. I'm sure it will reduce the accessibility of information about both suicide and treatment. But it will.do nothing to reduce the number of firearms per person in the USA.

 

[jodes2]

Making suicide forums illegal is a good thing?! Nah, sorry but I disagree. We gotta have somewhere to talk and vent. And for people who've tried recovery for 20 years with no sign of recovery imo deserve a way out. Sorry

 

[MellowAvenue]

Making suicide discussion forums illegal is an awesome thing. I'm sure it will reduce the accessibility of information about both suicide and treatment. But it will.do nothing to reduce the number of firearms per person in the USA.

To be honest, even ignoring my own personal thoughts on the subject (Obviously I'm against it) restricting any kind of free speech is a slippery slope to me, regardless of how well intentioned. I also don't think it'll reduce attempts as I believe there are other factors that are causing the increase in suicide in young people but people would rather signal out this forum and others like it as an easy scapegoat.

 

[WorthlessTrash]

Making suicide discussion forums illegal is an awesome thing. I'm sure it will reduce the accessibility of information about both suicide and treatment. But it will.do nothing to reduce the number of firearms per person in the USA.

-Retracted because I am unsure of this being sarcasm or not-

 

[BipolarExpress]

How does this help someone who is hopelessly depressed and suffering? Are you a pro lifer? This is something a pro lifer would say. If this place ceases to exist, where do we go to vent our honest feelings without the fear of being deprived of our basic human rights?

I think the OP was being sarcastic. I hope so, anyway.

 

[Cathy Ames]

How does this help someone who is hopelessly depressed and suffering? Are you a pro lifer? This is something a pro lifer would say. If this place ceases to exist, where do we go to vent our honest feelings without the fear of being deprived of our basic human rights?

I initially thought that one sentence was sarcasm? I don't think @Tintypographer would fit a normal person's definition of "pro life." But I could be wrong.

 

[WorthlessTrash]

I initially thought that one sentence was sarcasm? I don't think @Tintypographer would fit a normal person's definition of "pro life." But I could be wrong.

You can never tell via text these days. I tend to get jumpy when it comes to people saying things like that in light of all the flack this forum gets. I half expect anyone to say what they said, to be serious about it :(

 

[Himalayan]

>forum illegal
>Private communication channels is next

 

[RainAndSadness]

I know you have good intentions @Tintypographer but please don't debate Kelli. You need to protect yourself. Kelli has doxed a member of the forum in the past, someone who has committed suicide almost 2 years ago. She has encouraged physical violence on the past site owners and she has harassed and intimiated members that have reached out to them. This person is unhinged and it's not a good idea to engage with someone who will literally try to ruin your life because they disagree with your opinion. These people are not rational actors. They're crazy and they're running on hate and anger - they don't care about your arguments and no amount of empirical evidence will make them stop. Their goal is to take down this forum at all costs, they're literally willing to change the nature of the internet drastically and permanently to achieve that goal, because they want revenge. And that's all they care about. Please keep that in mind.

 

[Pluto]

The single biggest cause of death by suicide in this age bracket is firearm and that's what my daughter was a victim of.

Very sorry to hear of your loss. It's beyond my ability to comprehend. I have always admired your work in bringing awareness to this issue.

Regarding your statistic, it seems that firearms feature prominently in US suicides of all ages. Quote:
A firearm is used in approximately half of suicides, accounting for two-thirds of all firearm deaths.[28]​

It strikes me that our community, improvable as it may be, is being scapegoated for representing a far more complicated issues. I suspect 'Kelli' would dare not wage battle against the vast political power of the NRA, nor is she interested in studying let alone addressing the various root causes of suicidal ideation.

This forum is potentially a goldmine for research into issues afflicting youth. Even as an intermittent user, I find the same themes appearing, often with painfully simple cures that need to be applied further down the supply chain, such as education about certain issues in schooling.

 

[jamie_]

manipulation has played a massive role in my current state and none of it has come from this site.

 

[Tintypographer]

To be honest, even ignoring my own personal thoughts on the subject (Obviously I'm against it) restricting any kind of free speech is a slippery slope to me, regardless of how well intentioned. I also don't think it'll reduce attempts as I believe there are other factors that are causing the increase in suicide in young people but people would rather signal out this forum and others like it as an easy scapegoat.

All, sorry this was satire and should be taken as such in the way that I wrote it.

All, sorry this was satire and should be taken as such in the way that I wrote it.

It's hard to give sarcastic eye rolls ina forum. That was like me saying I consider nuclear weapons to be a good way to decrease the homeless problem.

Also sarcasm
Kelli:

@kelli @ fix the 26. How about next week on Monday at SMU in Dallas. I can have a hotel set up for you near campus and media and a forum and moderator from the sociology department and a statistics group there to fact check. I know you reside in Houston and can pay for your travel to meet with me and speak in a debate that I will ensure is posted unedited on YouTube and other forums and can invite you to publish.

Here is what I propose:

A list of topic questions with data required facts. An opportunity for a fact check team to validate all statements and all statements without data are shown to be irrelevant to the discussion. We would have a moderator and all subjects would be approved by both of us before hand. No emotional discussions of our lost children and no hearsay in the discussion. I'm more than prepared to discuss this with you in that forum. We can show the topics and questions ahead of time. I'd like to start with your claims that there is an "alarming" increase in the number of deaths by SN" but use statistics to show the level of this increase in comparison to the total population of individuals who commit suicide. And I don't mean that horrible medical publication in the online journal of the claim that there has been a 166 percent increase in the deaths by sodium nitrite. Let's actually share with you on camera in a non shock discussion that this 166 percent increase is actually the increase in the rate, not going up by 166 percent and that increase in feat is actually 8 more deaths than the year before bringing the total to represents the total number in the national poison control database to less than 20 in that year of the alarming jump (2019). This despite the us suicide statistics of 45960 deaths in the USA by suicide in 2019 jumping from 43312 an increase of a similar "alarming percentage rate. The biggest death comes from guns yet no where in your fight against suicide and discussions with the many legislators is there a proposal to reduce firearms dispose being a part of a state where the number of children killed by mass shootings eclipses the number of deaths by sodium nitrite.

The second thing I would.likd to discuss is the numbers of people statistically in a situation of severe treatment resistant depression and what the proposals are for their assistance in your forum for fix the 26 asmthis group represents the single greatest at risk component of suicide.

Then I would like to discuss the numbers of people within sanctioned suicide who are incel members in the general population of commenters and what statistics you have to show that they are "all manipulative pedophiles".

I will also watch for specific slander and will ensure I have legal counsel and will require you and me to each sign a notarized declaration requiring arbitration and subject to lawsuits for any statements with intent to harm the reputation of the other party. Should either of us decide to release names or address, attack character or "come after each other" with falsifications after signing this, the opposing party would have the right to arbitration and lawsuit. I know who I am, I know the value of my reputation, I know a lot about medical studies and math and this topic and I would absolutely love to debate facts with you.

You would be free to submit topics as well provided there are specific facts we could discuss.

Let me know and I'll set up a Skype call with us and legal counsel and we can talk as early as tomorrow.
Kelli:

@kelli @ fix the 26. How about next week on Monday at SMU in Dallas. I can have a hotel set up for you near campus and media and a forum and moderator from the sociology department and a statistics group there to fact check. I know you reside in Houston and can pay for your travel to meet with me and speak in a debate that I will ensure is posted unedited on YouTube and other forums and can invite you to publish.

Here is what I propose:

A list of topic questions with data required facts. An opportunity for a fact check team to validate all statements and all statements without data are shown to be irrelevant to the discussion. We would have a moderator and all subjects would be approved by both of us before hand. No emotional discussions of our lost children and no hearsay in the discussion. I'm more than prepared to discuss this with you in that forum. We can show the topics and questions ahead of time. I'd like to start with your claims that there is an "alarming" increase in the number of deaths by SN" but use statistics to show the level of this increase in comparison to the total population of individuals who commit suicide. And I don't mean that horrible medical publication in the online journal of the claim that there has been a 166 percent increase in the deaths by sodium nitrite. Let's actually share with you on camera in a non shock discussion that this 166 percent increase is actually the increase in the rate, not going up by 166 percent and that increase in feat is actually 8 more deaths than the year before bringing the total to represents the total number in the national poison control database to less than 20 in that year of the alarming jump (2019). This despite the us suicide statistics of 45960 deaths in the USA by suicide in 2019 jumping from 43312 an increase of a similar "alarming percentage rate. The biggest death comes from guns yet no where in your fight against suicide and discussions with the many legislators is there a proposal to reduce firearms dispose being a part of a state where the number of children killed by mass shootings eclipses the number of deaths by sodium nitrite.

The second thing I would.likd to discuss is the numbers of people statistically in a situation of severe treatment resistant depression and what the proposals are for their assistance in your forum for fix the 26 asmthis group represents the single greatest at risk component of suicide.

Then I would like to discuss the numbers of people within sanctioned suicide who are incel members in the general population of commenters and what statistics you have to show that they are "all manipulative pedophiles".

I will also watch for specific slander and will ensure I have legal counsel and will require you and me to each sign a notarized declaration requiring arbitration and subject to lawsuits for any statements with intent to harm the reputation of the other party. Should either of us decide to release names or address, attack character or "come after each other" with falsifications after signing this, the opposing party would have the right to arbitration and lawsuit. I know who I am, I know the value of my reputation, I know a lot about medical studies and math and this topic and I would absolutely love to debate facts with you.

You would be free to submit topics as well provided there are specific facts we could discuss.

Let me know and I'll set up a Skype call with us and legal counsel and we can talk as early as tomorrow.

 

[MellowAvenue]

All, sorry this was satire and should be taken as such in the way that I wrote it.

My apologies I didn't catch the sarcasm.

 

[Cathy Ames]

@kelli @ fix the 26. How about next week on Monday at SMU in Dallas. I can have a hotel set up for you near campus and media and a forum and moderator from the sociology department and a statistics group there to fact check. I know you reside in Houston and can pay for your travel to meet with me and speak in a debate that I will ensure is posted unedited on YouTube and other forums and can invite you to publish.

Here is what I propose:

A list of topic questions with data required facts. An opportunity for a fact check team to validate all statements and all statements without data are shown to be irrelevant to the discussion. We would have a moderator and all subjects would be approved by both of us before hand. No emotional discussions of our lost children and no hearsay in the discussion. I'm more than prepared to discuss this with you in that forum. We can show the topics and questions ahead of time. I'd like to start with your claims that there is an "alarming" increase in the number of deaths by SN" but use statistics to show the level of this increase in comparison to the total population of individuals who commit suicide. And I don't mean that horrible medical publication in the online journal of the claim that there has been a 166 percent increase in the deaths by sodium nitrite. Let's actually share with you on camera in a non shock discussion that this 166 percent increase is actually the increase in the rate, not going up by 166 percent and that increase in feat is actually 8 more deaths than the year before bringing the total to represents the total number in the national poison control database to less than 20 in that year of the alarming jump (2019). This despite the us suicide statistics of 45960 deaths in the USA by suicide in 2019 jumping from 43312 an increase of a similar "alarming percentage rate. The biggest death comes from guns yet no where in your fight against suicide and discussions with the many legislators is there a proposal to reduce firearms dispose being a part of a state where the number of children killed by mass shootings eclipses the number of deaths by sodium nitrite.

The second thing I would.likd to discuss is the numbers of people statistically in a situation of severe treatment resistant depression and what the proposals are for their assistance in your forum for fix the 26 asmthis group represents the single greatest at risk component of suicide.

Then I would like to discuss the numbers of people within sanctioned suicide who are incel members in the general population of commenters and what statistics you have to show that they are "all manipulative pedophiles".

I will also watch for specific slander and will ensure I have legal counsel and will require you and me to each sign a notarized declaration requiring arbitration and subject to lawsuits for any statements with intent to harm the reputation of the other party. Should either of us decide to release names or address, attack character or "come after each other" with falsifications after signing this, the opposing party would have the right to arbitration and lawsuit. I know who I am, I know the value of my reputation, I know a lot about medical studies and math and this topic and I would absolutely love to debate facts with you.

You would be free to submit topics as well provided there are specific facts we could discuss.

Let me know and I'll set up a Skype call with us and legal counsel and we can talk as early as tomorrow.

Whelp... if you haven't already sent this directly to her, she will certainly be reading it now. Good luck.

 

[callme]

To be honest, even ignoring my own personal thoughts on the subject (Obviously I'm against it) restricting any kind of free speech is a slippery slope to me, regardless of how well intentioned. I also don't think it'll reduce attempts as I believe there are other factors that are causing the increase in suicide in young people but people would rather signal out this forum and others like it as an easy scapegoat.

If too many people quit, those fix 26 miserable pipsqueaks will inevitably get up smell the air, see it works like a charm and bully yet more others in doing the same. Not good. I am only implying free speech itself is a slippery slope. Anybody leaving up because they find no more use or feeling exposed over here just gives ammunition and an easier way for legislation to ban it.

We all (will?) protect free speech by remaining here for as long as possible to each. Kind of, free speech is a refusal to not be able to speak rather than a court ruling whether to or not to.

Too bad in countries of superior laws people are harassed, doxed or exposed by petty newspaper interns.

 

[makethepainstop]

I want to share that I was told that the people on this site are "the most manipulative on the planet." That "they are lying about having lost a child".

I have lost a child to suicide, she used a gun and was never part of this website I found it later and joined myself.

I have never tried to convince anyone to commit suicide and I have never been manipulated into it. Not one single person base ever tried to convince me to buy products on here and no one has recruited me as an incel which I am also not.

I've reached out to this individual @kelli and offered to debate her at my university in a moderated forum using only facts regarding statistics, treatment resistant depression and numbers but she won't. She claims anyone but her is lying about losing a child. That's kind of sad considering that suicide is the second leading cause of death for those 14-25.

WISQARS Explore Fatal and Nonfatal Data

WISQARS Fatal and Nonfatal data Explorer

wisqars.cdc.gov

I can state factually that very few of those deaths were caused by SN and cartsinly not for sale by members of sanctioned suicide.

The single biggest cause of death by suicide in this age bracket is firearm and that's what my daughter was a victim of.

I think that is is horrible to call me a manipulator, act as though I am lying and a key part of "convincing children to harm themselves".


Legislators live things that have little impact. Making suicide discussion forums illegal is an awesome thing. I'm sure it will reduce the accessibility of information about both suicide and treatment. But it will.do nothing to reduce the number of firearms per person in the USA.

No one here wants to manipulate you. That is just not us. Look at how many times people here ask others for help or find a way to improve things that are causing them pain. As for me personally trying to manipulate me is like trying to force me to do something. I always will do the exact opposite of what you want. Force does not avail with me, and so I would not force or manipulate anyone. (Tho I do prefer young people here to wait til they are older if they are trying to CTB).

 

[Tintypographer]

I have reached out to Kelli and asked her to speak with a law firm about a disparagement and slander clause for both of us with a high value arbitration value should either of us publicly disparage the other in perpetuity regarding our debate on this site. Since I am not in the public eye or representing anyone I need to protect my career. I am also not going to be representing sanctioned suicide in the discussion, only working to challenge statements with facts that can be checked during the debate live. It is my belief that sanctioned suicide statistically is not responsible for thousands or tens of thousands of deaths, I do not believe that there are significant numbers of suicides caused by the ingestion of SN in the USA based on data, I do not believe that the site meets the definition of cult per the FBI and sociologists (I will have a fellow professor who is an expert on cults to fact check this) wherein a "leader builds a following of a new religious or quasi religious movement in which followers are expected to reject cultural beliefs in order to maintain their connection to other members", I do not believe that the site is specifically devoted to involuntary celibate (incel) or pedophile facilitation with any more likelihood of percentages than other social.media sites.

I do believe that the site does not do a good job of policing minors but my belief in that is founded on what I see as a lack of controls and not anecdotal claims. I have lost a child to suicide and I have been suicidal.myself a fact that is known.to.my employers and I have regularly posted on sanctioned suicide my thoughts on the state of mental health in America today. I believe that the existence of sanctioned suicide is an outcome of terrible pain associated with treatment resistant depression, bipolar disorder and other mental health issues which are expensive and often a lifetime without full remission. I further believe that labeling all members of sanctioned suicide as "incels", "pedophiles", and "manipulators" is a severe statement that I feel is designed to evoke shock and is similar to the catholic church practice of interdiction when an entire region could be excommunicated. I believe that these labels cause emotional harm to many people who are suicidal and seeking to understand their ideations in a context without the sentiments from conventional therapy. I will have several experts and data from clinical publications to back this up.

I do not doubt that there will be discussions of legal statutes that I will not be able to refute and certainly the unique concept of free speech vs public good. But I will absolutely fight to avoid being lumped in or attacked as a pedophile or incel or person who approves of the death of children and will have a photo of my daughter who killed herself without ever being part of sanctioned suicide after failing years of the best treatments known to western medicine.