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madasco

Member
Sep 13, 2022
29
Hi! Imagine you have a few small bottles of N and do not want your family to find them.

So you open them and put all their content into a larger bottle with no label (you keep the bottle safely guarded ofc).

This is your insurance to CTB a few years later when your physical condition worsens.

How long would the N remain effective?

Would you need to pump out the air/oxygen from the large bottle so that you create a vacuum and N is not oxygen-degraded?
 
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ferrie

ferrie

she/they
May 19, 2024
424
I can't find any info on if it degrades in the presence of oxygen. All I see for storage requirements is that it is kept in the dark at room temperature. N does degrade after about two years though. If it develops a yellow discoloration, it is no longer usable
 
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intr0verse

intr0verse

Experienced
Jan 29, 2021
222
I think it would be easier to just remove the labels from the existing bottles but if changing to another bottle is a must, then pick a bottle that will fit the content; for example, if you have 4x50ml bottles, pick a 200ml bottle so there would be very little space left for air, also look for a bottle with an airtight cap. Keep it in a dark, cool place and check for any sign of precipitate (little particles at the bottom of your bottle would be an indication it's starting to degrade).
 
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locked*n*loaded

locked*n*loaded

Archangel
Apr 15, 2022
6,412
You shouldnt have opened it unless you were ready to use it. Now you have a dilemma for which there is scant info.
 
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E

Ernest1964

Specialist
Jan 6, 2023
364
You shouldnt have opened it unless you were ready to use it. Now you have a dilemma for which there is scant info.
Agreed 100%. Which is why I say that one should never TRY to CTB, either do it or don't do it. Some people "play" with CTB and end up making their lives even worse than before the "attempt".
 
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madasco

Member
Sep 13, 2022
29
That's why I am asking here, because there is not much info; else I would know the answer already.

I can't find any info on if it degrades in the presence of oxygen. All I see for storage requirements is that it is kept in the dark at room temperature. N does degrade after about two years though. If it develops a yellow discoloration, it is no longer usable
Thank you for your useful and on point answer, Ferrie.

The 2 year life is once opened or the usual shelf-life states in the label of a bottle (unopened)?

Thanks
I think it would be easier to just remove the labels from the existing bottles but if changing to another bottle is a must, then pick a bottle that will fit the content; for example, if you have 4x50ml bottles, pick a 200ml bottle so there would be very little space left for air, also look for a bottle with an airtight cap. Keep it in a dark, cool place and check for any sign of precipitate (little particles at the bottom of your bottle would be an indication it's starting to degrade).
Thank you, intr0verse. Your suggestions are useful; will bear those in mind.
Agreed 100%. Which is why I say that one should never TRY to CTB, either do it or don't do it. Some people "play" with CTB and end up making their lives even worse than before the "attempt".
My question has absolutely nothing to do with trying/playing/half-heartedly intending to CTB
 
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ferrie

ferrie

she/they
May 19, 2024
424
That's why I am asking here, because there is not much info; else I would know the answer already.


Thank you for your useful and on point answer, Ferrie.

The 2 year life is once opened or the usual shelf-life states in the label of a bottle (unopened)?

Thanks

Thank you, intr0verse. Your suggestions are useful; will bear those in mind.

My question has absolutely nothing to do with trying/playing/half-heartedly intending to CTB
Afaik the two year date is from when it was manufactured. There should be an expiry date on the original packaging
 
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wanttogetonthebus

wanttogetonthebus

chronically unlucky
Nov 27, 2021
388
Hi! Imagine you have a few small bottles of N and do not want your family to find them.

So you open them and put all their content into a larger bottle with no label (you keep the bottle safely guarded ofc).

This is your insurance to CTB a few years later when your physical condition worsens.

How long would the N remain effective?

Would you need to pump out the air/oxygen from the large bottle so that you create a vacuum and N is not oxygen-degraded?
N degrades once it's exposed to air and may no longer be effective after a short period of time, but no one seems to know the particulars on just how much the potency degrades or how fast because N is usually used immediately after the seal is broken. I would use N within the hour to be safe if I broke the seal on mine. I would never break the seal if I wasn't going to consume it ASAP.
Hi! Imagine you have a few small bottles of N and do not want your family to find them.

So you open them and put all their content into a larger bottle with no label (you keep the bottle safely guarded ofc).

This is your insurance to CTB a few years later when your physical condition worsens.

How long would the N remain effective?

Would you need to pump out the air/oxygen from the large bottle so that you create a vacuum and N is not oxygen-degraded?
N degrades once it's exposed to air and may no longer be effective after a short period of time, but no one seems to know the particulars on just how much the potency degrades or how fast because N is usually used immediately after the seal is broken. I would use N within the hour to be safe if I broke the seal on mine. I would never break the seal if I wasn't going to consume it ASAP.
I found the information you were looking for. "Exactly how long it will stay good for after opening is up for debate, but it is generally accepted to be a few weeks to a couple of months after opening." If stored in a cool dry place without breaking the seal it can last up to 20 years well past the expiration date of 2 years.
 
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Tesha

Tesha

Life too shall pass
May 31, 2020
738
Shelf life after opening is only around 60 days. That's not to say it won't still be potent for longer, but that's the manufacturer recommendation when vets use it.
 
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Relic

Relic

Astral Corpse
Mar 6, 2021
534
Methods: Our preparation consists of a mixture of sodium pentobarbital in alkaline aqueous solution,
propylene glycol, and ethanol. Pentobarbital content in this preparation was assayed by high-pressure liquid
chromatography (HPLC). We also assayed pentobarbital content over time in preparations of various ages
up to 6 years old.

Results: We determined that the drug degraded at a maximum of 0.5% per year in our preparation (alkaline
water/propylene glycol/ethanol) when stored in the dark at room temperature. A yellow discoloration
developed after about 2 years, which we have arbitrarily determined disqualifies the preparation from use as
an anesthetic. Attempts to spectroscopically assay this discoloration were not successful.
 

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wanttogetonthebus

wanttogetonthebus

chronically unlucky
Nov 27, 2021
388
Thanks for sharing the original source of this! I wonder why "attempts to spectroscopically assay this discoloration were not successful for them though.
 
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prototypian

prototypian

Member
May 6, 2024
67
It's a salt and is slightly hygroscopic which means it takes up water but it won't "go bad". There isn't a pathway for it to really oxidize quickly from nitrite to nitrate without higher temperature. If the lid is closed and perhaps covered with plastic wrap you won't have tremendous degradation as a solid at room temperature over time. When I say not much, the degradation takes 330 degrees C for 1 gram to fully degrade in one hour, and a typical rule of thumb is doubling a reaction rate for every 10 degrees (that's rough). So at room temperature you are 1/2 to the power of 30 or so less likely to degrade completely so basically a buttload longer than you need to worry about especially if you keep it dry and closed.
 
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Relic

Relic

Astral Corpse
Mar 6, 2021
534
Thanks for sharing the original source of this! I wonder why "attempts to spectroscopically assay this discoloration were not successful for them though.

Looks like it is due to limitations of this technique. The explanation given was
We reasoned that a yellow solution should absorb reproducibly at one or more points in the red or blue regions of the visible spectrum, and that this could become the basis for quality control based on color. As Figure 5 shows, this effort was unsuccessful. Pentobarbital samples of several dilutions and ages – all quite visibly yellow – failed to give a stable absorbance correlating to the obvious color of the sample in any region analyzed.

But in this context the more important part might be at the beginning of that paragraph, which states that:
The discoloration is almost always a yellow color that becomes more intense with the age of the sample. There may in fact be no good reason for disqualifying these preparations from use, as the pentobarbital content in the samples remains quite high.
 
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Tesha

Tesha

Life too shall pass
May 31, 2020
738
@prototypian, good answer - but you're talking about SN, the Op was asking about N (Nembutal - Sodium Pentobarbital). Easy mistake to make!
 
wanttogetonthebus

wanttogetonthebus

chronically unlucky
Nov 27, 2021
388
It's a salt and is slightly hygroscopic which means it takes up water but it won't "go bad". There isn't a pathway for it to really oxidize quickly from nitrite to nitrate without higher temperature. If the lid is closed and perhaps covered with plastic wrap you won't have tremendous degradation as a solid at room temperature over time. When I say not much, the degradation takes 330 degrees C for 1 gram to fully degrade in one hour, and a typical rule of thumb is doubling a reaction rate for every 10 degrees (that's rough). So at room temperature you are 1/2 to the power of 30 or so less likely to degrade completely so basically a buttload longer than you need to worry about especially if you keep it dry and closed.
Are you talking about Sodium Nitrite? Because I think everyone here is discussing Sodium Pentobarbital including the research paper that is linked. But, Pentobarbital does have sodium in it's name so maybe it's also a salt, but if so and if we're all talking about the same substance, then I had no idea that the whole nitrite oxidizing into nitrate applied to Sodium Pentobarbital too. I only knew about sodium nitrite turning into nitrate. Thanks for explaining the meaning of hygroscopic. It's convenient when people assume others just know terms like that and then I have to go on a bunch of google searches to try to understand the term.
@prototypian, good answer - but you're talking about SN, the Op was asking about N (Nembutal - Sodium Pentobarbital). Easy mistake to make!
Oh! I suspected they confused SN for N because the acronyms are so similar. It happened to me before when I first arrived on the forum.
Looks like it is due do limitations of this technique. The explanation given was


But in this context the more important part might be at the beginning of that paragraph, which states that:
Thank you so much!! :happy: This is so interesting and I'm so happy you quoted and brought to attention the most important part too that the solid forming didn't really affect the N's content. I can see why having a solid might be bad for injecting purposes, but orally it really shouldn't be a big deal! Thanks again for sharing your findings and this paper!
 
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Relic

Relic

Astral Corpse
Mar 6, 2021
534
This is so interesting and I'm so happy you quoted and brought to attention the most important part too that the solid forming didn't really affect the N's content.
Precipitate and discoloration might be of concern in medical applications, depending on the case, but here they don't mean much. While pills and powders are always more stable, the same amount of attention would be needed to store them in either form.
 
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prototypian

prototypian

Member
May 6, 2024
67
My bad on the SN vs N. Should have read more carefully. Apologies
 
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