Discussion how people talk about suicide and suicidal people in suicide prevention

[catman]

does anyone else feel there is a huge separation between how you experience being suicidal and the way its depicited in suicide prevention?

one of the things that bother me the most is phrasing that makes it out to be like anyone who is suicidal is just entirely crazy and incapable of being rational at all. its an immediate infantalization, and its kind of put me off of talking about it in serious ways that could be potentially helpful to me, because it can really quickly constitute being admitted [which ive been before and all it did was give my caregiver a huge debt and no help for me]

like, why i feel this way and have depression is born out of my material reality. i dont just have silly weird chemicals doing a funny dance, i have reasons im unhappy and think dying would end the suffering i feel

its weird seeing suicide prevention saying to drive the person to an ER, like what in the hell is that going to do for anyone? its not even about actually getting us any material help to change our situations. does anyone else feel this way?

 

[jodes2]

Yeah I'm largely the same. The exception is people who are impulsive about it and haven't given themselves a chance to recover. I'm not quite in the fence, but getting there. Saying that, I think everyone should have the right to die once they've tried things.

 

[Rounded Agony]

I recently finished reading and summarizing the content of a book by someone in the field who talks about the actually very poor association between "mental health" (whatever that even means now) and suicidality, as well as the unfortunate fact that the prevention initiative has been brainwashed into the monothought that it's a strictly causative relationship. Unless you're really old and/or have a terminal illness.

But in any other case, you'd need to be crazy to want to die! What's that, you're a survivor of sexual trauma from a war-torn nation who managed to escape with your family but faced dehumanizing systemic institutional discrimination as a refugee, and now half of your family has died and you're living on the street? YOU MUST NEED MENTAL HEALTH TREATMENT please sign up for therapy and someone will call you in 6 months-1 year.

That's just an example to illustrate the point. But as you say, I never wanted to not be alive until my life started pelting shit at me, at a slowly accelerating and intensifying rate. I now consider myself mentally ill, but it's absolutely separate from my suicidality. If anything, I don't want to die because I'm mentally ill, I'm mentally ill because (among other things) I want to die.

 

[Un-]

It's stupid man. I try not to think about it because it makes me angry beyond reason.

Like, I get it. I get that the average person can only know so much about something. It's impossible to know the intricacies of every issue. Like, I don't even know much about the Russian and Ukraine war. Just the basics.

With that being said, I don't say shit about that war. People have become too comfortable with rather expressing their opinion, than refining it.

Beliefs that suicide is caused solely by depression, is irrational, can be treated and so on is caused by ignorance about it. And the people ignorant about it refuse to.. Go deeper. Like those politicians pushing that fucking bill - does it not occur to them WHY there's a suicidal forum in the first place? Have they even seen this forum? Have they interacted with the members of it? Most probably no.

It boggles my mind to no end.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

its weird seeing suicide prevention saying to drive the person to an ER, like what in the hell is that going to do for anyone?

It will do plenty. Just nothing positive.

 

[Hirokami]

Suicide is a lot more multi-faceted than how these prevention programs make it seem. Indeed, to these programs and the general public, all suicide attempts are impulsive and that we're all irrational. Of course, this straw suicidal person is a lot easier to "help" than the person who carefully plans their passing after many failed attempts at recovery. It never once occurs to them that people with treatment-resistant mental health issues and untreatable physical disabilities exist, for starters. It also never occurs to them that suicide can be viewed as a last resort rather than a spur-of-the-moment decision.

 

[Pluto]

I remember working with this intellectually disabled guy. He was supposed to be giving me directions while I was driving. But because of his inability to empathise, he thought that because he knew the way, I should also know. He got irritated at me when I asked him for directions. It was a long day.

So it is with the egocentrism of the normies in this situation. The logic goes: "My life is going well and I couldn't imagine making a rational decision to exit this life, therefore anyone wanting to die is in a completely deluded state."

 

[LaVieEnRose]

So it is with the egocentrism of the normies in this situation. The logic goes: "My life is going well and I couldn't imagine making a rational decision to exit this life, therefore anyone wanting to die is in a completely deluded state."

Or worse: "I got through it and survived, why can't you*.

 

[SamTam33]

To answer your first question - absolutely.

But what I quickly realized after joining SS is that a lot of the stereotypical suicidal types do exist (I guess most stereotypes start with a bit of truth).

This prompts medical professionals or whomever to apply the stereotypical suicidal response.

Very few people are going to take the time to see the different facets and levels to being suicidal.

It's much easier to assume that all [insert group] are all [insert stereotype]. Especially if they have occasional validation of their preconceived notions and biases.

They select one of their pre-made boxes to shove people into because assessing them on an individual basis would require them to apply critical thinking and it might reveal that their stereotypical thinking is lazy and wrong.

 

[Unending]

Suicide is a lot more multi-faceted than how these prevention programs make it seem. Indeed, to these programs and the general public, all suicide attempts are impulsive and that we're all irrational. Of course, this straw suicidal person is a lot easier to "help" than the person who carefully plans their passing after many failed attempts at recovery. It never once occurs to them that people with treatment-resistant mental health issues and untreatable physical disabilities exist, for starters. It also never occurs to them that suicide can be viewed as a last resort rather than a spur-of-the-moment decision.

I feel as though the majority of "Professionals" are incapable of admitting to themselves that some people just can not be helped by the mental healthcare system as it is today. That being said, one of the therapists I saw while attending a program a while back did open up to me about how I am not the only one who is aware of this and that they have been painfully aware of the ineffectiveness of treatment as well and essentially given up hope while their fellow staff continues to push all the same inefficient mindfulness and meds on people who've been trying these things for years already, essentially tricking patients into thinking that they weren't giving it enough effort when it came to finding the right med or meditating consistently enough. While on the edge of tearing up, they told me that they planned on resigning from their job in the near future. It was sad as it was validating..

 

[KuriGohan&Kamehameha]

I feel as though the majority of "Professionals" are incapable of admitting to themselves that some people just can not be helped by the mental healthcare system as it is today. That being said, one of the therapists I saw while attending a program a while back did open up to me about how I am not the only one who is aware of this and that they have been painfully aware of the ineffectiveness of treatment as well and essentially given up hope while their fellow staff continues to push all the same inefficient mindfulness and meds on people who've been trying these things for years already, essentially tricking patients into thinking that they weren't giving it enough effort when it came to finding the right med or meditating consistently enough. While on the edge of tearing up, they told me that they planned on resigning from their job in the near future. It was sad as it was validating..

This is really tragic. I saw similar sentiment being expressed in posts on a psychiatry forum, where people had to be lisenced psychiatrists, psychologists, ward staff, etc to be allowed to post. So many people confessed that they believe in the concept of "Shit Life Syndrome" and that there are some individuals who can't be helped with the current blunt tools we have, no matter how hard we try.

You can push endless SSRI perscriptions, involuntary sectioning holds, and CBT therapy sessions upon this demographic, but it isn't going to make a difference. As long as their socioeconomic circumstances are in disarray - including the consequences of things that may have happened in the past and permanently changed one's life for the worst- these people aren't going to be helped by rudimentary therapy techniques and pills.

The type of issues that drive suicidality are extremely complex and heterogeneous in nature, and many of the posters on that forum reluctantly admitted to the fact. However, almost every single one of these mental health workers confessed to lying and decieving their patients in regards to this.

This happened because they were either afraid of being sued if the patient went through with suicide in the end, or held a misguided belief that if they keep lying to the person and filling them with false beliefs that it always gets better and their struggles derive from their lack of a positive attitude and optimism, they will quit being suicidal eventually.

If staff in these professions could admit to their powerlessness, and have an ounce of honesty like the woman you spoke to, everyone would be better off, because more effort would be put into developing solutions that have the potential to change things rather than beating a dead horse.

 

[Unending]

more effort would be put into developing solutions that have the potential to change things rather than beating a dead horse.

Ah yes, the dead horse that I presume has been being beaten for a majority of many SS users's lives. Thank you for your reply. For me personally, believing the lies that push me towards the idea that I'm not seeking help correctly or "giving it my all" is much more painful than simply understanding that I've done what I can. They preach radical acceptance in therapy quite frequently and I think I've finally found a situation where it can be applied for myself.

 

[HoneyandGlass]

I find any dialog on suicide prevention infuriating. It shows me that those in the field are largely out of touch with what is needed, how to talk about it etc. It is more a one size fits everyone so everyone treated the same.

 

[Pluto]

So many people confessed that they believe in the concept of "Shit Life Syndrome" and that there are some individuals who can't be helped with the current blunt tools we have, no matter how hard we try.

I hadn't heard that term before. Thanks for enlightening me. Though I doubt it would help trying to argue the point with my psychologist.

Shit life syndrome - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[FuneralCry]

Yes, it's ridiculous to me how they view suicidal people. I think a lot of people like that are delusional. It's true that wanting to die is a perfectly rational response to seeing life as not being worth living, it's not necessarily 'mental illness', and this fact should be respected. I mean after all, life is objectively a terrible concept filled with endless suffering that continues to be experienced day after day and will always do as long as beings continue to be brought into this world.

If people want to live then that is up to them, but there should be some kind of acceptance towards the reality of this existence being undesirable and the fact is that it's not for everyone. Some people simply just don't want to be here, and I hate the view that life must always be lived at all costs regardless of the circumstances. The way that those people think is so ignorant towards the reality of this existence and those that are against suicide really are insane, at least to me.

 

[BipolarExpress]

My problem with mainstream suicide-prevention information is that they presume that suicidal people are intrinsically irrational and must be kept alive at all costs, even if that means enduring poverty, debt, social rejection, isolation, debilitating illness, severe depression, and other long-term stressors. For those whose suicidality comes from material conditions, platitudes will not make sure the bills are paid, food is on the table, and there is a roof over the person's head. For those whose suicidality comes from social isolation, calling a hotline will not bring them friends, family, or partners. Locking someone up in a psych ward will not cause the chronically depressed to suddenly be happy and excited about life; instead, they will probably leave the ward even more traumatised than they were to begin with. Simply taking away the means to suicide will not make the world more accessible for people with disabilities. It will not remove my autistic aversions and sensory overload.

Suicide isn't just a personal problem; it's a policy problem. Unfortunately, most of the policy changes, both governmental and corporate, have focused on restricting suicidal people's access to painless forms of suicide (e.g., the message spread by Means Matter and Zero Suicide), rather than alleviating the problems that lead people to be suicidal in the first place. Putting up suicide barriers, taking SN off the market, and locking people up in psychiatric wards isn't going to resolve the underlying problems that drive people to kill themselves in the first place. They talk about removing means to suicide—for example, making household natural gas less lethal. Lives were saved, yes, but were those lives of high quality? Did those people continue to be miserable? Did they do anything to improve those people's quality of life? They just pat themselves on the back, saying "We save lives!" without doing the long-term work to ensure that we get the support we need BEFORE we are brought to the brink of suicide.