how likely is sn failure?

[befree]

I would suggest the issue here is that, despite your attempts to help people, in a thread asking the likeliness of failure, you're guessing at numbers and filling people's minds with doubt and anxiety. Not just in this thread either.

Don´t agree.

 

[who doesn't matter]

I think we all need to calm down. We are escalating it needlessly. As others said, the failure of almost any method depends on being found out. The same goes for SN. If you are found, you will most likely be saved.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

I would suggest the issue here is that, despite your attempts to help people, in a thread asking the likeliness of failure, you're guessing at numbers and filling people's minds with doubt and anxiety. Not just in this thread either.

According to the Wikipedia article the LD(lo, lowest lethal dose) is 71mg/kg body weight. For an avg 80 kg person that's round about 6g if I didn't miscalculate. The protocols suggest 25g avg. so this is defintitely lethal, some exceptions might still apply. each human body is different.

 

[betternever2havbeen]

Just for info: I don't have a medical background but some decades ago I studied chemistry for some time.

I start with a quote from the article: "The effects were observed at concentrations of 48 nmol and 480 nmol, but not at 4800 nmol nitrite and 480 nmol nitrate.". nmol (=nano mol) which is a unit for a certain amount (a mass unit, molar mass). That's such a small amount but not an OD with 20-25g.

Another quote: "a final volume of 500 μL containing sodium nitrite (48 to 4800 nanomoles) or sodium nitrate (480 nmol) was administered intravenously to the rats". They talk about µL (micro liters) here not 50ml (milliliter).

It's simply the amount what makes the difference and there is a constant natural nitrate <-> nitrite process in the body anyway but it's not dangerous because the amounts are too small. That's why in theory you could also use nitrate, but you'd need so much more nitrate so that a lethal amount of nitrite could be produced by natural processes in the human body.

After the ingestion of SN it seems that the blood pressure sinks because veins are widening, therefore increasing blood flow, that's why the heart rate increases, therefore people use a beta blocker to reduce the heart rate.The effect that blood flow is increased is the key point in the study to treat stroke, but here it's about medical dosage not OD.

This is how I understand it according to my best knowledge, Please also do your own research.

Thank you for responding and in such detail-appreciate it! Maybe I did get my hopes up a bit when I saw that article. It's interesting for sure but yeh I don't know how applicable it is to an SN OD in humans...I'm still researching as much as I can and believe it to be less risky than other methods.

 

[betternever2havbeen]

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/criem/2016/9013816/

Here's another article I found. 28 year old man taken to hospital about an hour after taking SN. Transient loss of consciousness (bit worrying he wasn't fully unconscious by then) but after being given the antidote and recovering a bit the next day he remembers he only took approx 15g SN (so less than the recommended 25g) about an hour before being taken to hospital.

The patient was transferred to the general ward and was subsequently discharged on day 7 without neurologic impairment.

So no brain damage for this guy with severe Methemoglobinemia due to Sodium Nitrite Poisoning. BUT for balance it does also say in the article "Nitrite is also a potent vasodilator and can cause coronary ischemia and stroke as a result of hypotension, tachycardia, and hypoxia." Which I'm sure will please @befree

Edit-linked the wrong article the first time!

 

[bluesoapyskies]

with any method, getting caught is your biggest risk

 

[John Ryder]

Lol why the dogpile on befree? Obv one of the more reasonable people on here. "Filling people with uncertainty and anxiety"? How, by attempting to be objective and unbiased, instead of coddling with confirmation bias? "Yes yes, your method will put you to sleep in seconds, kill you in minutes, and leave you without even a headache if you fail. Sleep now, little one". And let's be honest, that's what 60% of this forum seems to be after at any time. Not to be as informed as possible, but to feel good about one's method. I've lost count of the threads I've seen where people turn into hyperdefensive toddlers the moment they encounter evidence or reasoning their method is anything less than a gentle handjob from baby jesus.

How many of these case studies (and I've read damn near all of them at this point) follow up a month, three months, a year after the fact? Oh, literally none? Are we also assuming everyone who's attempted an SN ctb has a full case report written up? Hilarious. It's common sense that depriving the organs of oxygen stands to cause potential long term damage, zero in depth science needed.

 

[betternever2havbeen]

It's common sense that depriving the organs of oxygen stands to cause potential long term damage, zero in depth science needed.

Hmm well I suck at Science but wouldn't it be more likely to cause immediate damage if it was going to rather than long-term? Anyway we're talking about SEVERE brain damage here, @befree would have us all believe we'll end up a vegetable-I have seen NO evidence of this happening to anyone as of yet.

I think we just wanna see sources where this has happened-saying stuff like high risk of brain or organ damage and then not elaborating on what exactly that could be is what makes people think it's scaremongering.

 

[John Ryder]

Hmm well I suck at Science but wouldn't it be more likely to cause immediate damage if it was going to rather than long-term? Anyway we're talking about SEVERE brain damage here, @befree would have us all believe we'll end up a vegetable-I have seen NO evidence of this happening to anyone as of yet.

I think we just wanna see sources where this has happened-saying stuff like high risk of brain or organ damage and then not elaborating on what exactly that could be is what makes people think it's scaremongering.

I mean long term in the sense of long lasting/permanent rather than delayed appearance. You would think by default most of this stuff would show up quickly, before discharge, but the human body is also weird as shit. You often see a line like: "Subject was discharged on day 12 with no apparent neurological sequelae" in such reports and I always wonder just how in depth the evaluation is. Is it full on MRI and EEG, or just casual observation and the "Try to recall the three words said before this sprawling paragraph" thing? Sometimes it's laid out clearly but often not.

I doubt the likelihood of full on veggie status too. And I am sure SN is a far safer bet in failure than a lot of things (shotgun to head, bleach) but I just think there should be more emphasis in general on working out one's seriousness about ctb and maximizing success, along with acceptance of possible issues in failure. I think it's easy to reach a point of over analysis where one drives themselves insane with worry over failure consequences and just stagnates, afraid to try anything at all.

 

[betternever2havbeen]

@John Ryder yeh I agree. There are many ways the brain could be damaged and people wouldn't even know-I just think it's important to make the distinction because people automatically assume we're talking about becoming a vegetable when it could simply be something like lapses in memory that someone might not even notice and wouldn't be much of a problem. If there's a risk of serious brain injury I won't even take SN, but small stuff I could deal with-I mean you're incredibly lucky to walk away from a serious attempt unscathed anyway. Of course, I plan not to be walking away from it when/if I do it in any case! Bottom line is no one knows what effect it has, I will just say that I think all signs so far are pointing towards it being a method most can fully recover from until I hear any different...

 

[Arrow]

Sad reality is that no method is 100%. I'm gonna shoot myself in the head and hope and pray I just don't live to see the consequences

I think I'll go your same route eventually, but I will say that the only method I can think of having a 100% success rate would be refusing to eat or drink anything and starving in a room alone. But for obvious reasons almost nobody does that method.

 

[Orbitc]

@befree still haven't seen any evidence that SN causes brain damage, certainly not to call it "very likely" there will be permanent brain damage. I think there's a difference between letting people know of the risks and overexaggerating them. The general consensus on the last guy who used to always turn up scaremongering on SN threads was he was chatting shit. You seem to be taking a leaf out of his book.

Sodium nitrite does not cause brain damage, but hypoxia resulting from SN intake will be causes brain damage. SN itself has no direct effect on the brain.

 

[befree]

Everything I write here on the forum regarding the risks of SN and other overdoses and methods are not assumptions, not estimates, but are based on years of research and my knowledge based on my profession. Everything I write on this forum is not to scare, but to protect members from possible harm. I don´t have to do this. I can also go to the beach or to the forest and enjoy the day. I have no problem with members not believing me. It´s not my intention to convince you. So do what you want.

 

[CW36]

I think I'll go your same route eventually, but I will say that the only method I can think of having a 100% success rate would be refusing to eat or drink anything and starving in a room alone. But for obvious reasons almost nobody does that method.

Your logic is a little flawed.

 

[Fox of June]

Lol why the dogpile on befree? Obv one of the more reasonable people on here. "Filling people with uncertainty and anxiety"? How, by attempting to be objective and unbiased, instead of coddling with confirmation bias?

Guesswork is neither objective or unbiased.

 

[John Ryder]

Guesswork is neither objective or unbiased.

Well good thing pointing out starving your brain and kidneys of oxygen might just fuck them up failing death isn't "guesswork" then, huh. Anyway isn't it tea time or something you loser-ass Brit? jk you guys are great. Butter teeth, fish n crispers, snogs n wollies etc

 

[Fox of June]

Well good thing pointing out starving your brain and kidneys of oxygen might just fuck them up failing death isn't "guesswork" then, huh. Anyway isn't it tea time or something you loser-ass Brit? jk you guys are great. Butter teeth, fish n crispers, snogs n wollies etc

Obviously helps if you read through the thread.

I would guess 50/50 chance of being peaceful and 60/40 chance of being successful.

Literally the first words uttered by befree in this very thread. By all means explain how this isn't guesswork and then explain how this actually helps in the context of the thread.

 

[John Ryder]

Obviously helps if you read through the thread.



Literally the first words uttered by befree in this very thread. By all means explain how this isn't guesswork and then explain how this actually helps in the context of the thread.

Yeah I've read the thread. Have to wonder if you'd be having a stroke over guesswork if the figure was more flattering toward SN. Like if BF said "99% chance you catch that bus like a champ" would you have anything to say or would you just be sucking your thumb contentedly in your suicide lair. I've seen a lot of bf's posts at this point and usually it's link to a thread or case study coupled with "here's some info" or a basic claim that's bolstered by evidence. But you're taking this one example and running with it like b-dubz is constantly pulling arbitrary figures and numbers from their ass, which is some loser-ass Brit shit imo. Also even if you go cherry pick 17 examples of them doing exactly that (like some loser ass Brit) I don't give a fuck, because at least bf makes a genuine effort to be informed on methods and to help others with same, much more than most on here.

 

[Fox of June]

Yeah I've read the thread. Have to wonder if you'd be having a stroke over guesswork if the figure was more flattering toward SN. Like if BF said "99% chance you catch that bus like a champ" would you have anything to say or would you just be sucking your thumb contentedly in your suicide lair. I've seen a lot of bf's posts at this point and usually it's link to a thread or case study coupled with "here's some info" or a basic claim that's bolstered by evidence. But you're taking this one example and running with it like b-dubz is constantly pulling arbitrary figures and numbers from their ass, which is some loser-ass Brit shit imo. Also even if you go cherry pick 17 examples of them doing exactly that (like some loser ass Brit) I don't give a fuck, because at least bf makes a genuine effort to be informed on methods and to help others with same, much more than most on here.

Clearly you're very angry at something and I'm not sure if I've had any run-in with you previously on this board, which be the reason for your personal insults and hostility.

This isn't a place for guesswork. It's a place for people seeking comfort, support and advice. I've asked of you to explain, in the context of this thread, how guessing at numbers is either objective or unbiased and you've refused to do so, which leads me to believe you know what befree is posting isn't actually helpful or correct and these rants of yours are of a personal nature.

 

[John Ryder]

Clearly you're very angry at something and I'm not sure if I've had any run-in with you previously on this board, which be the reason for your personal insults and hostility.

This isn't a place for guesswork. It's a place for people seeking comfort, support and advice. I've asked of you to explain, in the context of this thread, how guessing at numbers is either objective or unbiased and you've refused to do so, which leads me to believe you know what befree is posting isn't actually helpful or correct and these rants of yours are of a personal nature.

Aw. Are you gently removing a pair of reading spectacles as you say this? For maximum gravitas? You didn't ask me to explain shit bruh. You stated that "guesswork is neither divine nor noble, but beastly, rather" while harping on one measly example of bf offering up a percentage estimate on likelihood of success, as if that renders the sum total of everything else they've ever said on the matter garbage. I then very boldly insinuated that you wouldn't give a shit about guesswork if what was proferred was more in favor of sn because I suspect you're really just inconvenienced by anything that calls its efficacy into question and that this impartial "just the facts pls" stance is feigned when what you really want is reassurance that it's one sweet, sweet ticket.

 

[Fox of June]

Aw. Are you gently removing a pair of reading spectacles as you say this? For maximum gravitas? You didn't ask me to explain shit bruh. You stated that "guesswork is neither divine nor noble, but beastly, rather" while harping on one measly example of bf offering up a percentage estimate on likelihood of success, as if that renders the sum total of everything else they've ever said on the matter garbage. I then very boldly insinuated that you wouldn't give a shit about guesswork if what was proferred was more in favor of sn because I suspect you're really just inconvenienced by anything that calls its efficacy into question and that this impartial "just the facts pls" stance is feigned when what you really want is reassurance that it's one sweet, sweet ticket.

I'm not sure why me being English is such a problem for you that you find it necessary to keep insulting me in this way. How exactly is this helping the discussion? And I did ask you to explain how his comments are helpful. I did so in post #47, a post you actually quoted by claiming you'd actually read the thread.
I'm going to leave it there. This is not a productive discussion any more. Take care, people.

 

[Keliphah]

I read a thread guide that says 83% success rate but some other say like between 60-70. If you fail by throwing up you will end up with almost no damage but if you go in a come for much time and get saved brain damage is very likely. It all depends how much time passed after the assumption

Yeah I read a case study of a guy who tried to do it with SN. He ingested, passed out, awoke and vomited and in his confusion called an ambulance who rushed him to the hospital. Within 90 minutes of treatment his bloods showed he'd make a full recovery, within 2 days he was transferred to a psych ward. So definitely avoiding vomiting is key. As is making sure you dont end up in hospital. I believe that case they ingested about 11gms for context.

I don't think that's a common occurrence at all. If there were people vegetableized from taking SN I would imagine there would be news articles about the situation trying to dissuade people from trying it. I haven't seen any articles like that but I imagine it can happen if you're found. Having a good chunk of time undisturbed is vital

Agreed. Requires going uncinscious, probably a good 2 minutes without oxygen to the brain (you're dead dead at 5 minutes so 2 shoukd vegtable you fairly well) and then be found, resuscitation and/or treatment given so as to prevent you from having a multi-system organ failure.

According to the Wikipedia article the LD(lo, lowest lethal dose) is 71mg/kg body weight. For an avg 80 kg person that's round about 6g if I didn't miscalculate. The protocols suggest 25g avg. so this is defintitely lethal, some exceptions might still apply. each human body is different.

I must have the calculations wrong as I came up with 56.8g

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/criem/2016/9013816/

Here's another article I found. 28 year old man taken to hospital about an hour after taking SN. Transient loss of consciousness (bit worrying he wasn't fully unconscious by then) but after being given the antidote and recovering a bit the next day he remembers he only took approx 15g SN (so less than the recommended 25g) about an hour before being taken to hospital.

The patient was transferred to the general ward and was subsequently discharged on day 7 without neurologic impairment.

So no brain damage for this guy with severe Methemoglobinemia due to Sodium Nitrite Poisoning. BUT for balance it does also say in the article "Nitrite is also a potent vasodilator and can cause coronary ischemia and stroke as a result of hypotension, tachycardia, and hypoxia." Which I'm sure will please @befree

Edit-linked the wrong article the first time!

thank you! This helps, especially on times.

 

[Sad Avocado]

Non è bene discutere di tante informazioni sulle fonti nel forum (paesi). Per questo motivo ho cancellato il mio ultimo messaggio nel forum.
Forse è meglio che lo faccia anche tu.

okk grazie per il consiglio

 

[betternever2havbeen]

Everything I write here on the forum regarding the risks of SN and other overdoses and methods are not assumptions, not estimates, but are based on years of research and my knowledge based on my profession. Everything I write on this forum is not to scare, but to protect members from possible harm. I don´t have to do this. I can also go to the beach or to the forest and enjoy the day. I have no problem with members not believing me. It´s not my intention to convince you. So do what you want.

So how do you explain the ones that have failed and come back and told us they're fine? They were lying, or they're just super lucky, or they will get damage in a few years, what? If you've got professional knowledge we need that here for sure I just think you're kind of vague a lot and that doesn't really help people. No one is walking away unscathed from being starved of oxygen by hanging, we know how that works. The same should be true with SN but somehow it's not-unless you think there are scores of people sitting in a hospital somewhere who can't move or speak and tell us about it which is terrifying, but I'm sure we'd have heard about it one way or another if that was the case.

Sodium nitrite does not cause brain damage, but hypoxia resulting from SN intake will be causes brain damage. SN itself has no direct effect on the brain.

So are you saying the ones that survived without any brain damage somehow avoided hypoxia?

 

[befree]

I just think you're kind of vague

You are free to believe what you want.

 

[betternever2havbeen]

@befree ok so still being vague then lol.

 

[Arrow]

Your logic is a little flawed.

How? Starving yourself would certainly cause death, and it would be extremely difficult to not eat for a long period of time, hence why it's an uncommon method. What's the logical flaw?

 

[befree]

@befree ok so still being vague then lol.

ridiculous

 

[betternever2havbeen]

@befree I'm literally trying to engage with you, if you're not interested in any discussion that's fine.

 

[John Ryder]

you're guessing at numbers and filling people's minds with doubt and anxiety. Not just in this thread either.

Oh cool. Could you be a doll and link to some examples of that ongoing "reign of terror"? Surely there's no shortage of evidence, right? Otherwise that's a pretty bold accusation toward befree. Slanderous, even.

Guesswork is neither objective or unbiased.

The idea guesswork is inherently biased is absurd. If I'm asked to form a prediction or conclusion on a subject I'm totally impartial on based on evidence made available to me, how would that conclusion be "biased"? It's obv possible to do so without an agenda. That's almost too obvious to even address.

Also can you touch on how one addresses a method's odds of success without guesswork? Seeing as it's apparently an exact science with a precise formula and all, that even accounts for individual circumstances and physiology. Lol. Inquiring minds need to know.

All you've done here is frame an answer you didn't like in baseless accusations of bad faith and agenda, as anyone with half a brain can see. What an accomplishment! Standing ovation.