How do you feel about people having the right to die?

[technicallyAlive]

I understand and advocate for peoples right to die, and I've tried to write down why, but my thoughts are unorganized and I can't exactly put into words why or how I feel about this.
What I got down while journaling:

" I think that people should have the right to die. A big factor as to the reason for why suicide occurs in the first place is that people aren't allowed to talk openly about it without being judged or institutionalized, which results in people hiding and internalizing suicidal ideations and never getting the chance to seek help. And plus, the pro-lifers being the people who have never gone through abuse or neglect of any kind, are shallow and cold hearted individuals who wouldn't understand that emotional or mental suffering is just as harmful as physical suffering."

" I read somewhere that the reason main therapists and councellors can't or struggle to help people who are suicidal, is that they fail to recognize that suicide in itself isn't a problem, its a solution to pre-existing problems. Therapists cannot solve suicide, but they can determine what is causing people to feel those suicidal thoughts or ideations and then do their best to solve those. And another thing is that they use to much of general solutions to problems that often vary in specifity. Like if someone were feeling suicdal due to economics or social pressure, and relationship or dating issues, or money problems, or unresolved childhood trauma, or abuse and s*xual assault, you can see that those are all wildly different problems, suicide being the solution.
And sometimes there is no cure to depression. People can try and try and judge and stigmatize as much as they want but they'll only make it worse. The person will only suffer worse."

I think I've got the main points down but is there anything you feel is important to add or mention?..

(also, something i'd like to add is that this post was made with the mindset of "how would i explain to someone/pro-life that sucide is ethical?" I imagine if a spy or someone against the idea of suicide were viewing this thread that we could maybe explain in a civil manner why suicide should be accepted into society.)

 

[SecretDissociation]

I think your prose on how suicide is the solution for pre-existing problems is pretty on the dot. Therapists focus a lot on stopping suicide, without thinking about why said person is approaching suicide.

I think suicide as an option shouldn't be up for debate, the same way women's rights, trans rights, freedom, equity, and all things related shouldn't be up for debate. We are brought into this world without a choice. We don't get a choice about our circumstances in the living world. We barely even get choices now as conscious adults and beings. Suicide is as valid an option as death isn't. If you can die one day, unceremoniously, then surely you can choose to die.

But I really think this shouldn't be a topic for debate in this world. Suicide is valid. Death is valid. People just choose the socially constructed 'moral' high ground of ethics rather than critically thinking about the ethics of keeping someone who doesn't want to be alive, alive. It's more unethical to keep someone suffering alive, the same way it would be better to cull a dog that has lost its lower body. But social constructs love to differentiate between animals and humans and that's another niche.

 

[real human being]

Here's how I usually put it:

None of us choose to be born, none of us choose to come into this life, or the circumstances of our life. So, all of us have a natural right to end our lives if we so wish. The suicidal person doesn't have to prove that their desire to commit suicide is valid.

Life consists of experiences, some of them negative and some of them positive. When the negative aspects of one's life, the suffering, outweighs the joy and meaning that life has to offer, a person may feel that the whole thing isn't worth it.

Crucially, none of us can truly understand the experience of another person better than they understand their own experience. Only the suicidal person themselves knows what it's like to be themselves, only they can determine the value of their own life, in their own eyes, and only they can make the choice to end it or not to.

 

[lamy's sacred sleep]

the pro-lifers being the people who have never gone through abuse or neglect of any kind

this is the only part I'd disagree with, on the basis that you have people who have gone through stuff and then say that because they have so can everyone else.

other than that, great post
you might like checking out

Schopenhauer on Mars

Discourse on the ethics of birth and death.

schopenhaueronmars.com

The View from Hell

web.archive.org

(I haven't read the whole thing)

Marc AntiNatalist

Welcome . The purpose of this channel is to mainly discuss topics relating to antinatalism , philosophical pessimism , and whatever else comes to my mind.

www.youtube.com

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17315307-every-cradle-is-a-grave (great book)

 

[ultraparadise]

its just selfish really to bring someone into this world without their consent, then if that person grows up and isnt happy they will be forced to not end their suffering and withstand like 80 years of life until finally getting the same peace that was before they were born. its actually insane if you think about it.

There are ways to make life somewhat enjoyable though but life is never rainbows and unicorns constantly with zero bad/unpleasant things happening. And sometimes making life itself enjoyable can be very, very difficult.

also to add, i only keep living right now because CBT is so extremely difficult and i dont have enough willpower to go through with it, and if i was never born in the fucking first place i wouldnt have to even deal with this stuff

 

[wiggy]

I think it's a somewhat fruitless discussion, because the right to die is the one fundamental right that is the closest to being truly inalienable. So while I am in favor of that right, in the vast majority of circumstances it's not really something that needs to be petitioned even if faced with massive opposition.

 

[technicallyAlive]

this is the only part I'd disagree with, on the basis that you have people who have gone through stuff and then say that because they have so can everyone else.

Yea lol.. I can't lie I wasn't all that happy when writing this, not sure if you could tell by the way I described those people. but yeah if I knew i would've been posting it online i prolly wouldn't have said that:') and the only reason I'm not editing it out rn is because I legit just don't know what words to replace it with

 

[ultraparadise]

this is the only part I'd disagree with, on the basis that you have people who have gone through stuff and then say that because they have so can everyone else.

other than that, great post
you might like checking out

Schopenhauer on Mars

Discourse on the ethics of birth and death.

schopenhaueronmars.com

The View from Hell

web.archive.org

(I haven't read the whole thing)

Marc AntiNatalist

Welcome . The purpose of this channel is to mainly discuss topics relating to antinatalism , philosophical pessimism , and whatever else comes to my mind.

www.youtube.com

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17315307-every-cradle-is-a-grave (great book)

btw thanks for these links, very interesting stuff to read

 

[StrugglingSienna]

People should have the right to a happy, long life. They should also have the right to access a peaceful, long, restful death if they so choose. That's the long and the short of it, to me. And our world is a long way from bringing either ideal to fruition.

 

[FuneralCry]

It needs to be an option, I just want the option to peacefully cease existing and never suffer ever again and I see so much cruelty in how that is denied with the suffering and torture of human existence seen as to force and prolong no matter what as all I hope for is non-existence, for me non-existence truly is all that's positive and is all I could wish for in this existence where there's all this cruelty and suffering all for the sake of it, it's just so horrific to me how it's seen as a crime wanting to have the option to choose when to cease existing even know this existence was imposed in the first place. Non-existence really is all that's desirable for me and I'd just always prefer to not exist than suffer all for the sake of it in this reality where there is no limit as to how much agony one can feel just to be tortured by old age and cease existing anyway, I always suffer so much from being enslaved in this existence so cruelly denied the option to just never exist ever again.

 

[Jade10666]

The right to die is the right of self-determination. It doesn't mean other choices can't be presented but you always have the right to that decision

 

[22yearsbroken]

Are parents have the right to choose if we live or die before birth... if we are here its your life your own life.. become a doctor.. become a vet. A dentist... or you could join the services go to war take many lives... probabaly get a parade and a medal .. i know...

But choosing to make your own choice in regards to yourself .. well now.... you can die for country .. everyone has a choice on your life but you .. they can pull the plug... but you cant pull your own plug...

Im an athesist and a physicist but ive still read the good old book and the Quran we all live on a big blue rock and if you belive in these texts which is fine by me... i belive the texts say we was given free will...

my situation is probably very different feom ma y being terminal and not wanting to suffer .. but truly boiles down to my life my choice if i wanna dye my bkdy blue and live as a smuf, its my cboice i wanna chamge sex my choice..

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

Every human and other sentient animal is under threat of something horrible happening to them.

We would have the means to exit the hell called life and this evil world : the only reasons we don't have the means is because the government monsters made every guaranteed painless suicide method into crimes. like someone helping you with suicide , nembutal, suicide booths ( sarco etc) , ... they made all those and more into crimes. so the government monsters made it a crime for someone to want to move away from extreme suffering or escape extreme torture.

if the government creeps hadn't acted massively to create all these laws things like hiring someone to inject you with Nembutal or to shoot me with a gun would be legal. they purposefully wrote and passed laws to make all these crimes . they even arrested someone for being around a sarco in a supposedely right to die country switzerland or netherlands or something.

they arrested N from D, dr Kevorkian , Kenneth law anyone helping others to escape pain or suffering.

now the UK government are having massive police checks for SN and are trying to get this website banned.

all this and more shows we are slaves , prisoners in an evil prison a suicide prohibition state.

nobody asked to be brought into this dangerous prison. so they should be allowed to hire someone to help them leave it.

this evil prison was imposed. it's a non-consential imposition.

 

[Neutron-Witch]

Part of my argument for permitting suicide is about autonomy. I don't have a rights-based ethical framework, so I don't believe in a "right to die" or an "intrinsic right to bodily self-determination" (though I often use those terms as convenient shorthand when talking to others). Simply put, I will do what I wish with my own body and life, regardless of what others want to do with it. That of course includes the decision to continue or cease life. If other people decide they want to end their lives, why would I prohibit them? It's their decision, it doesn't concern me.

The other part is that I don't see death or suicide as a negative. I don't believe in sin or hell, and I view death as neutral at worst. Therefore, I don't see the act of suicide as tragic in isolation (if anything, it's liberatory) or something that should be avoided. Circumstances that force someone to begrudgingly commit suicide are tragic, but even those need not exist in all cases. If someone wants to end their life of their own accord, and without any feeling any obligation, that's not something to lament as a tragedy, but celebrate as someone taking control of their life as they see fit.

Besides arguing that the suicidal don't deserve autonomy and that suicide/death is inherently wrong, pro-lifers like to talk about the possibility of regret as to why one shouldn't kill themselves. But to me, if someone deems that they won't change their mind at any time in the future, then that's not a good reason for dissuading them. Beyond that, I don't feel obligated to continue trapping myself in an uncomfortable existence on behalf of some hypothetical future self that may want me to endure things.

 

[CynicalCyanide]

Hi!
First i wanted to start with this part:

therapists and councellors can't or struggle to help people who are suicidal, is that they fail to recognize that suicide in itself isn't a problem, its a solution to pre-existing problems

I can't help to disagree, but maybe I don't know what you exactly mean by this. The couple of times I went to therapy being suicidal, they never went full focus on the suicide or preventing it, but it was always looking for the things that made me depressed or suicidal and trying to fix those problems. I also can't imagnine someone going thinking "This person is suicidal, they must be totally okay but we just must prevent their suicide". I think everyone automatically assumes there must be an underlying problem or pre-existing problem as you call it. More like: "This person is suicidal, I wonder why". Maybe I understood you wrong? Whats your view about this? Or do you think you have just been to really bad therapists/counselours?

Allright, now the subject you asked for :P
Before recently (let's say half a year) I was completely and 100% for people having the right to die. Now I am maybe 99% for people having the right to die, as I gained 1 reason why people shouldn't have the right to die (but I think it's a weak one, so that's why I am still at 99%).

1. We are set on this earth and in this live against our will. No one did (or can) ask us permission to be set on this earth. You must live through live with all the joy and suffering that comes with it. We didn't give permission to be set alive, so I dont see the reason why we would need permission to leave. The first is making a choice for someone else even, why can't we make the choice for ourselfs to leave?
2. In the laws you can't hurt anyone else. You can't force someone else to do something for you. You can't threaten anyone else. You can't kill anyone else. You can't have someone else as property. I of course agree with this. When it comes to someone wanting to die, suddenly the laws can force you to live, force you to go through your live. Suddenly you are property and they can make choices for you.
3. We are going to die anyway. So why not now? what's the loss? You can be dead by accident practically every moment. Why would someone need to go through something (if they decide they dont want to go through it) if we must die anyway? What's the win for "them"?
4. Maybe we should turn around the question: why can't people have the right to die? I really can't come up with any good reasons. We must keep on living because...? I seriously struggle with reasons why we should't have the right. For people that will miss us? So now (again) they suddenly can make choices for others?
5. Ilnesses. There are serious mental and physical diseases that will make a life miserable. imagine this starting at a yound age and with a body healthy enough to become 80+.

The reason btw why Im 99% for it and not 100% is that because people might make the wrong choice. They can become better even though for their suicidal period it doesn't seem like it. And ofcourse there are many people that go through their suicidal period, and are happy they are still alive.
Why I think this is a weak reason to take away the right to die, is because there can be implemented rules. Be at least suicidal for x amount of time, or you must have at least be in therapy for x time or stuff like that.

 

[11April]

One of the basic principles of the law is that "One person's freedom ends where another's begins." That is, a person can do anything as long as it does not harm others. In my ctb, there are no restrictions on the rights and freedoms of others, so of course suicide cannot be prohibited. The very fact that it is prohibited is absurd.

 

[cme-dme]

I think we should have a right to die but I think there should be an actual procedure for it that you have to go through with a doctor or something. I feel like if you just had suicide booths straight out of Futurama for example you'd have too many people who end their lives impulsively or regret their decision before it is too late or worse - people who are forced to kill themselves via coersion :(