How do we get euthanasia as an option for the mentally ill accepted in liberal states?

[Ambivalent1]

Red states are a lost cause in regard to this issue. Euthanasia should be available to all adults who want it but Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

[SilentSadness]

I somehow doubt it will be made available, at least not soon. The best anyone can do is try to ctb or not for themselves I suppose.

 

[Ambivalent1]

I somehow doubt it will be made available, at least not soon. The best anyone can do is try to ctb or not for themselves I suppose.

Canada is allowing it and Trudeau is a little bitch who forgives treason. He let Canadians come back after joining up with isis. Even democrats would never, so allowing euthanasia seems more plausible in modern day Babylon

 

[FuneralCry]

I don't really think that anyone on here can do anything to get euthanasia as an option. Sadly this society is just so disgustingly anti-suicide, there is no compassion towards those who suffer apart from where it's legalised now.

 

[Ambivalent1]

I don't really think that anyone on here can do anything to get euthanasia as an option. Sadly this society is just so disgustingly anti-suicide, there is no compassion towards those who suffer apart from where it's legalised now.

Bumper stickers and billboards!

"Want to die? We know the feeling. This "rocket ship" *insert picture of Australian euthanasia device* will take you from zero to infinity and beyond without pain and without fear. In the 21st century, long-suffering suffering is not a virtue. It's just simply unnecessary."

I don't know what reactions that would have lol

 

[Xta4Love]

I live in the Netherlands. Here we have it. But it has been made especially difficult for the mentally ill. My general practioner refused. Now I need to apply at this expertise centre. The waiting list is 36 months. If this centre finds any therapy that you have not yet tried...your request will be denied.

 

[Ambivalent1]

I live in the Netherlands. Here we have it. But it has been made especially difficult for the mentally ill. My general practioner refused. Now I need to apply at this expertise centre. The waiting list is 36 months. If this centre finds any therapy that you have not yet tried...your request will be denied.

Prolifers are evil which is live spelled backwards.
When a doctor wishes one well, they're really wishing ill upon them. It's all so sick when you look behind the Oz curtain.

 

[Hotsackage]

i dont know how, you could protest like adam mayer clayton did in canada. legalised next march i think.

 

[UKscotty]

They just made this legal in Canada, so there is hope.

 

[brokeandbroken]

Red states are a lost cause in regard to this issue. Euthanasia should be available to all adults who want it but Rome wasn't built in a day.

1) Just get Euthanasia for those that want it. For "just" mentally ill it could cause problems. I think it is quite simple in words in practice difficult. Point out to the world all of the places society is failing us. Show how little society gives a shit about us and how we are going to CTB either way let us die with dignity. Our desire to CTB isn't an etiology within ourselves but a problem and symptom of the horrendous culture around us. If you are unwilling to change the culture help us then let us have our dignity.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

It would take multitudes of suicidal people staging horrific public suicides like self-immolation, maybe blowing one's brains out, possibly outside statehouses and Congress, and the message of why someone was doing this would have to be made loud and clear.

 

[brokeandbroken]

It would take multitudes of suicidal people staging horrific public suicides like self-immolation, maybe blowing one's brains out, possibly outside statehouses and Congress, and the message of why someone was doing this would have to be made loud and clear.

Not necessarily look at the banner and the fact people want this site shut down... That gives people here an opportunity to tell our stories potentially. To say this is why. With the why being *their*/societies fault.

 

[boom.shaka.laka]

Impatiently waiting for March 2024 over here.. MAiD for MH was suppose to pass in March but they pushed it back a year to add "protocols". Hoping they don't push it back again.

 

[Ambivalent1]

It would take multitudes of suicidal people staging horrific public suicides like self-immolation, maybe blowing one's brains out, possibly outside statehouses and Congress, and the message of why someone was doing this would have to be made loud and clear.

Like the movie The Happening

Not necessarily look at the banner and the fact people want this site shut down... That gives people here an opportunity to tell our stories potentially. To say this is why. With the why being *their*/societies fault.

And even still, society shows their illiteracy. Prolifers don't read our stories.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

Not necessarily look at the banner and the fact people want this site shut down... That gives people here an opportunity to tell our stories potentially. To say this is why. With the why being *their*/societies fault.

The problem is that suicidal people have no clout being an infinitesimally small part of the population. Look at mass shootings in the US. There is more than one mass shooting a day in the US, and a mass school shooting, at least, every couple months. Even with all that carnage, nothing meaningful gets done to solve the problem. The truth is, there probably isn't anything that can solve the problem. The argument on the suicidal side is that there should be more death. Never gonna fly. I still think it would take a succession of sensationalized suicides to even garner a brief amount of attention from the powers that be. Even then, the likely reaction would be to find more ways to stop suicide. I don't think this can be a David and Goliath story. That was just a story. In real life, the Goliaths normally prevail. There are too many issues nowadays that take up all the attention and trying to break into that limited availability of attention is nearly impossible and requires extreme measures like someone's self-immolation on a Senator's lawn, or in front of the White House, along with a clear, unambiguous accompanying message.

Like the movie The Happening

I didn't see that movie.

 

[brokeandbroken]

The problem is that suicidal people have no clout being an infinitesimally small part of the population. Look at mass shootings in the US. There is more than one mass shooting a day in the US, and a mass school shooting, at least, every couple months. Even with all that carnage, nothing meaningful gets done to solve the problem. The truth is, there probably isn't anything that can solve the problem. The argument on the suicidal side is that there should be more death. Never gonna fly. I still think it would take a succession of sensationalized suicides to even garner a brief amount of attention from the powers that be. Even then, the likely reaction would be to find more ways to stop suicide. I don't think this can be a David and Goliath story. That was just a story. In real life, the Goliaths normally prevail. There are too many issues nowadays that take up all the attention and trying to break into that limited availability of attention is nearly impossible and requires extreme measures like someone's self-immolation on a Senator's lawn, or in front of the White House, along with a clear, unambiguous accompanying message.

The issue is the problem with suicidality and mass shootings is very similar. Extreme rage, depression, sadness, despair, loneliness, etc... It is a mental health issue not a gun issue. Removing guns wouldn't stop it. It would just turn into knives or illegal guns. Most mass shootings are drive by shootings that are gang related. Do you think they don't know it is illegal? Do you expect a government run confiscation effort? That's not going to end well. Nothing is being done because people don't want to undertake the effort of solving the mental health crisis. Ironically allowing for euthanasia would probably reduce some mass shootings and school shootings. So I am not sure *more* death is necessarily true. It would prevent it from being run on the news so news stations couldn't get the news story du jour in. It would also bring death to the forefront briefly. It would force people to face their own ugliness and the ugliness of society. The issue is those would counter-act the issue.

The best message IMO is basically society sucks, you don't care about anyone besides yourselves, many many people are struggling. We have been a consequence of your narcissism and neglect. We are normal, not crazy just want to die because it better to live with your selfish ways, especially seeing as you will let crimes go unpunished, you'll show preferential treatment to some, you'll abandon those who are alone. America has a loneliness problem and we are the biggest victims. If you can back things up with stats it has a chance. For instance NPR even said this
Self-immolation for people who want to die doesn't say any of that. It says I am crazy, I am going to light myself on fire to show you that. They won't see the underlying message regarding society, loneliness, etc.. just the crazy dude who lit himself on fire. On a senator's lawn or white house is even worse. It would be seen as the crazy guy going to attack the senator or president. You won't get anything else it will be used against us. It would virtually guarantee it is shut down. SS is advocating for people to attack congress shut it down now! Those kooks are nuts! They need to be locked up! It would generate the wrong form of attention. It worked for Vietnam because many people detested the war it had already penetrated the cultural zeitgeist. In short our message should be you suck, the society your are in charge of sucks, we have been the victims of it, we mean no harm, we just want to CTB with a shred of dignity.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

Self-immolation for people who want to die doesn't say any of that. It says I am crazy, I am going to light myself on fire to show you that. They won't see the underlying message regarding society, loneliness, etc.. just the crazy dude who lit himself on fire. On a senator's lawn or white house is even worse. It would be seen as the crazy guy going to attack the senator or president. You won't get anything else it will be used against us. It would virtually guarantee it is shut down. SS is advocating for people to attack congress shut it down now! Those kooks are nuts! They need to be locked up! It would generate the wrong form of attention. It worked for Vietnam because many people detested the war it had already penetrated the cultural zeitgeist. In short our message should be you suck, the society your are in charge of sucks, we have been the victims of it, we mean no harm, we just want to CTB with a shred of dignity.

Not if they sent in a "manifesto" to the media and had one laying nearby that would become "evidence" and eventually become public.

In short our message should be you suck, the society your are in charge of sucks, we have been the victims of it, we mean no harm, we just want to CTB with a shred of dignity.

Those would be good words for someone to write in a manifesto.

 

[brokeandbroken]

Not if they sent in a "manifesto" to the media and had one laying nearby that would become "evidence" and eventually become public.

Those would be good words for someone to write in a manifesto.

The media isn't going to care or give it air time. They'll be too busy talking about how crazy we are. What is going to be the better news story? Crazy person sets themselves on fire or you need to talk to a whole bunch of people you don't want to and be a better person because you suck. Also you are trusting the media to tell a dead person's story exactly the way you want it. Seem to have a whole lot of faith in people...

 

[locked*n*loaded]

The media isn't going to care or give it air time.

That's all they talk about now. There are so many specials and documentaries being aired right now that's it's driving me nuts. There are PSA on all the time, day and night. The media loves a juicy story. If there is a succession of very public suicides you can bet that they're going to jump onboard and run with the story. The real issue in bringing the idea of permissible suicide to the forefront is getting the religiosity and $$$ out of the subject.

Seem to have a whole lot of faith in people...

Not at all. But, they didn't hesitate to make Ted Kaczynski's manifesto known.

 

[brokeandbroken]

That's all they talk about now. There are so many specials and documentaries being aired right now that's it's driving me nuts. There are PSA on all the time, day and night. The media loves a juicy story. If there is a succession of very public suicides you can bet that they're going to jump onboard and run with the story. The real issue in bringing the idea of permissible suicide to the forefront is getting the religiosity and $$$ out of the subject.

Most are about politicians, celebrities, and the rich/famous. A bunch of suicidal individuals who have been outcasted from society isn't going to make it. Hell my "mentor" who was an oncologist committed suicide and his now widowed wife wrote a book on doctor suicides (the bitter irony as soon as I needed help faced difficulty the clinic which was pushing it to me ran for the hills like everyone else) ... Judging by the amazon stats it didn't exactly permeate the cultural Zeitgeist either despite good reviews. Some minor news outlets did pick it up. For a good story with a good message about a successful families tragedy. So no the media cares about stories that will sell rather then ones that will be something good for society. Good heartfelt stories don't sell as well as bad. Which is part of the problem. They care about *juicy* stories about famous people. About people in the press. They care about hearing about Trump for the 8,000th day in a row, about pushing their political topic du jour, etc... Which means given the choice between making someone a martyr for a cause that they don't care about and one they would have to look into the mirror and see how awful they are versus making them seem crazy..... They are going to take the crazy angle every time. You are giving them that opportunity. Hell at the church I went to and reached out to help with one of the group leaders in high school worked for the news... (insert state man) victim of crimes in Poland while studying to become an oncologist needs help.... Could probably swing it. Nah never even discussed. Simply put unless you are rich or famous you don't matter to the media. They'll take the angle that suits them best not necessarily the correct one.

Not at all. But, they didn't hesitate to make Ted Kaczynski's manifesto known.

Didn't they publish it because he said he said he would stop the bombing/to catch the author? What incentive does the media have to air a dead person's manifesto? For instance not that he was a good man, should be exalted, martyred, etc... He was potentially if what is alleged is true an awful human being. But look at David Koresh.... He wanted his manifesto released and it was said about him "all the hallmarks of rampant, morbidly virulent paranoia". As the FBI played recordings of jet planes, pop music, Buddhist chanting, screams of rabbits being slaughtered, they also had 9 Bradley fighting vehicles and 5 m728 combat engineer vehicles. They pumped tear gas in and lit it on fire killing 79 people and 21 under 16.... Yet he is paranoid? He's the monster? They couldn't find evidence he sexually assaulted or physically abused kids. No faster way to ruin someone's credibility to say they are paranoid... Nothing you say will ever matter basically. They handed over the case to the ATF (who didn't have jurisdiction by the way)... You know what Koresh was a uneducated loner who found a way to create a community even if it was fraudulently... The point is if you are dead you cannot control the narrative. Media had two stories loner somehow convinced a bunch of people that he was a prophet and decided to live by themselves or a crazy person. Sorry crazy is always going to win in the eyes of the media. Frankly can you even say any of the manifesto's released are ever taken seriously? Ted K's IQ was 167 meaning he wasn't just a genius but one of the smartest people on the planet... It's rarity is 1 in 251,515. This would put his IQ (though these are estimates) above Einstein whose listed at 160, Musk at 155, and Hawking at 160. Yet he's not remembered for his manifesto but rather for the bombings. Maybe look upon as being intelligent as he was... But not his manifesto. Simply put manifestos aren't effective and even less so dead. Note despite multiple people saying he wasn't psychotic Ted K was ultimately diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia.

Edit: It is worth pointing out... If your goal is to get euthanasia for people this is context I am referring to. Suicide by itself let's saying hanging won't impact things either way. You'll just be a statistic some news anchor may reference once a year probably when a celeb commits suicide...

 

[locked*n*loaded]

Most are about politicians, celebrities, and the rich/famous. A bunch of suicidal individuals who have been outcasted from society isn't going to make it. Hell my "mentor" who was an oncologist committed suicide and his now widowed wife wrote a book on doctor suicides (the bitter irony as soon as I needed help faced difficulty the clinic which was pushing it to me ran for the hills like everyone else) ... Judging by the amazon stats it didn't exactly permeate the cultural Zeitgeist either despite good reviews. Some minor news outlets did pick it up. For a good story with a good message about a successful families tragedy. So no the media cares about stories that will sell rather then ones that will be something good for society. Good heartfelt stories don't sell as well as bad. Which is part of the problem. They care about *juicy* stories about famous people. About people in the press. They care about hearing about Trump for the 8,000th day in a row, about pushing their political topic du jour, etc... Which means given the choice between making someone a martyr for a cause that they don't care about and one they would have to look into the mirror and see how awful they are versus making them seem crazy..... They are going to take the crazy angle every time. You are giving them that opportunity. Hell at the church I went to and reached out to help with one of the group leaders in high school worked for the news... (insert state man) victim of crimes in Poland while studying to become an oncologist needs help.... Could probably swing it. Nah never even discussed. Simply put unless you are rich or famous you don't matter to the media. They'll take the angle that suits them best not necessarily the correct one.

Didn't they publish it because he said he said he would stop the bombing/to catch the author? What incentive does the media have to air a dead person's manifesto? For instance not that he was a good man, should be exalted, martyred, etc... He was potentially if what is alleged is true an awful human being. But look at David Koresh.... He wanted his manifesto released and it was said about him "all the hallmarks of rampant, morbidly virulent paranoia". As the FBI played recordings of jet planes, pop music, Buddhist chanting, screams of rabbits being slaughtered, they also had 9 Bradley fighting vehicles and 5 m728 combat engineer vehicles. They pumped tear gas in and lit it on fire killing 79 people and 21 under 16.... Yet he is paranoid? He's the monster? They couldn't find evidence he sexually assaulted or physically abused kids. No faster way to ruin someone's credibility to say they are paranoid... Nothing you say will ever matter basically. They handed over the case to the ATF (who didn't have jurisdiction by the way)... You know what Koresh was a uneducated loner who found a way to create a community even if it was fraudulently... The point is if you are dead you cannot control the narrative. Media had two stories loner somehow convinced a bunch of people that he was a prophet and decided to live by themselves or a crazy person. Sorry crazy is always going to win in the eyes of the media. Frankly can you even say any of the manifesto's released are ever taken seriously? Ted K's IQ was 167 meaning he wasn't just a genius but one of the smartest people on the planet... It's rarity is 1 in 251,515. This would put his IQ (though these are estimates) above Einstein whose listed at 160, Musk at 155, and Hawking at 160. Yet he's not remembered for his manifesto but rather for the bombings. Maybe look upon as being intelligent as he was... But not his manifesto. Simply put manifestos aren't effective and even less so dead. Note despite multiple people saying he wasn't psychotic Ted K was ultimately diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia.

Edit: It is worth pointing out... If your goal is to get euthanasia for people this is context I am referring to. Suicide by itself let's saying hanging won't impact things either way. You'll just be a statistic some news anchor may reference once a year probably when a celeb commits suicide...

I still think there's power in numbers, and if a bunch of sensationalized suicides took place, all with a clear message as to why, it would be noticed and, at the very least, start a conversation - until the next big story came around, which is bound to happen. Not much anyone can do about that. You can't "permeate the cultural Zeitgeist" speaking hoarsely from the sidelines with a muted bullhorn. You've got to make your presence known.

 

[brokeandbroken]

I still think there's power in numbers, and if a bunch of sensationalized suicides took place, all with a clear message as to why, it would be noticed and, at the very least, start a conversation - until the next big story came around, which is bound to happen. Not much anyone can do about that. You can't "permeate the cultural Zeitgeist" speaking hoarsely from the sidelines with a muted bullhorn. You've got to make your presence known.

People are campaigning to have SS taken down see here https://www.cp24.com/news/this-is-h...use-in-canada-u-k-1.6384699?cache=sbklajmajdo . That opens the door for countervailing arguments as well. They are opening the door for the penetration of the cultural Zeitgeist and allowing for stories to be heard. You also have a CT bill regarding euthanasia https://dailycitizen.focusonthefami...cal-aid-in-dying-bill-to-legalize-euthanasia/ . The step down from euthanasia would be keeping the site active. Either they try and take it down giving people the ability to tell their stories or it's kept up. You are right we do have to make our presence known but I don't think rushing to the WH or congressman's lawn (where security will be at by the way) is going to get the job done. As far as sensationalized suicides how many before the site is taken down and media stops covering it? I imagine very soon. How soon before it is regarding lack of access to psych wards and doctors who don't give a shit rather then addressing the societal problems that exist? How soon before it is a bunch of mentally ill people not people who have been the victims of society? Things must be measured and thought out is all.

As an addendum for the record... What happens when you show up gas can and matches in tow you are tasered, arrested, euthanasia is marginalized further, site is taken down, you have no possibility to CTB, etc...

 

[locked*n*loaded]

People are campaigning to have SS taken down

Yes

That opens the door for countervailing arguments as well.

In the climate we find ourselves, there is no countervailing argument that's going to break the religiosity dogma or $$$ influemce

but I don't think rushing to the WH or congressman's lawn

Just examples

not people who have been the victims of society?

They don't even look at suicidal people like that now

You are right we do have to make our presence known

And I think the only thing that even stands a chance of accomplishing that, an infinitesimally small chance at that, is shock and awe. There isn't even the right to euthanasia for terminally ill people in all 50 states, and IMO, there probably never will be. Now, to try and bypass right past that and obtain rights of euthanasia for mentally ill people if they so choose? It's like putting the cart in front of the horse, IMO.


What's the connection between people staging their own public suicide and SaSu? Do you think SaSu is still up because people are not staging their own public suicides? I submit it won't make one bit of difference whether the anti-choicers are successful or not.

 

[brokeandbroken]

In the climate we find ourselves, there is no countervailing argument that's going to break the religiosity dogma or $$$ influemce

Simple. I am a Christian... I believe if I commit suicide I'll still got o heaven.... I am associated with at least 3 churches. One in Poland and two in the US including one that my uncle is a pastor at and the other a megachurch with thousands of members (top 100 in the US?). The one in Poland is rare a protestant church in Poland no help though... The second a megachurch the one I regularly attended and watched online frequently, I tried to reach out to members no help. And the third the one my uncle is the pastor of... In regards to being a victim of a crime it was pretty much deal with it be happy and poor. Forget the fact your budding career as a doctor future oncologist, tens of thousands of dollars, future, etc... was stolen. Enjoy being poor!!! Humble yourself!! Christians aren't any different then society. They are just as much if not more selfish then the general society. It's basically the prosperity gospel. Pray and God will give it to you! You must not have prayed hard enough. Must not be a true Christian then. It's the no true scotsman fallacy. Simple if the church isn't going to do anything about it nor are my fellow Christians for this and many of societies foibles. You'll talk the talk about helping people but won't walk the walk then you kind of have to be cool with suicide. Unless society is going to act then society has to be okay with it out in the open. You can't have it both ways. Maybe one should be terrified about meeting their maker if they have committed suicide. For me I don't think a good God is going to force you to live in suffering for no benefit. "You thought you suffered before well let me welcome you to hell!" The rules are the rules you believe in him you are going to heaven. Jesus is your ticket, believe in him he already RSVP'd for you.

Just examples

Idea works the execution not so much.

They don't even look at suicidal people like that now

They never have. Which the point. They should, the stats flesh it out. Suicide should almost universally be seen as a societal problem. Instead it is seen as the victims problem. Society wants it out of the limelight, they don't want to think about it. Too yucky. Much rather think about Trump.

And I think the only thing that even stands a chance of accomplishing that, an infinitesimally small chance at that, is shock and awe. There isn't even the right to euthanasia for terminally ill people in all 50 states, and IMO, there probably never will be. Now, to try and bypass right past that and obtain rights of euthanasia for mentally ill people if they so choose? It's like putting the cart in front of the horse, IMO.


What's the connection between people staging their own public suicide and SaSu? Do you think SaSu is still up because people are not staging their own public suicides? I submit it won't make one bit of difference whether the anti-choicers are successful or not.

People are committing suicide I would wager not publicly but more so in the shadows of the night. Trying to evade detection and make they aren't caught and the opportunity is ripped away from them. There's a difference between the publicity of someone running onto their favorite congressman's lawn and lighting themselves on fire versus in the darkness of the night, trying to avoid detection, filled with fear of pain, immense emotional trauma, lacking dignity, and all the other accompanying emotions trying to CTB. One you are made to be seen as crazy and no one mourns the loss of, the other the person is blamed for their own trauma. Society escapes the blame by castigating them as mentally ill/selfish rather then the victims of societies abuses looking for an escape for their suffering. One the story doesn't matter because it's handwaved away, and the other? Well it isn't told.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

Simple. I am a Christian... I believe if I commit suicide I'll still got o heaven

On the flip side, many Christians don't believe that.

They are just as much if not more selfish then the general society.

No argument from me there.

Idea works the execution not so much.

Crowded public places would have the same effect.

They should

Just because they should doesn't mean they will.

Suicide should almost universally be seen as a societal problem.

People are too consumed with their own (legitimate) issues. And the world has become too polarized and people are too dug in to their beliefs.

People are committing suicide I would wager not publicly but more so in the shadows of the night. Trying to evade detection and make they aren't caught and the opportunity is ripped away from them. There's a difference between the publicity of someone running onto their favorite congressman's lawn and lighting themselves on fire versus in the darkness of the night, trying to avoid detection, filled with fear of pain, immense emotional trauma, lacking dignity, and all the other accompanying emotions trying to CTB. One you are made to be seen as crazy and no one mourns the loss of, the other the person is blamed for their own trauma. Society escapes the blame by castigating them as mentally ill/selfish rather then the victims of societies abuses looking for an escape for their suffering. One the story doesn't matter because it's handwaved away, and the other? Well it isn't told.

I can only hearken back to the 1970s when discarded fetuses were being left in alleyways and other public areas. It took that type of shock and awe to even begin to penetrate the cultural zeitgeist of that era and give voice to women to create the change they wanted. Obviously, we are in a different era now (politically not culturally) and that issue has once again reared it's ugly head. Nevertheless, it still took shock and awe back then to even bring the issue out of the darkness and to give voice to those affected. Right now, this small community we have doesn't even have a voice outside this small forum, hence (members) "trying to evade detection and make (sure) they aren't caught and the opportunity is ripped away from them." You have to have a voice first before any meaningful change can ever come about. People's attention is not easy to obtain, let alone hold. You have to get their attention first, and with the way things are, it's a hard ask and usually takes extreme measures to even get 15 minutes of fame.

 

[brokeandbroken]

On the flip side, many Christians don't believe that.

Most do but if someone is suicidal isn't going to say it for fear it would incentivize suicide. Like I said I think fear of having to explain to God who created you why you committed suicide (murder) should be enough of a fear.

Crowded public places would have the same effect.

Ehh same issue. If you scare people to the point where there's a risk of their lives being jeopardy it will create backlash that will be crippling. So again good idea but too destructive. Assuming you still mean self-immolation as well. I'm not sure unless that is how you want to CTB in which case that sounds awful that it is going to help in anyway in terms of what we have discussed....

People are too consumed with their own (legitimate) issues. And the world has become too polarized and people are too dug in to their beliefs.

That is mostly true on say abortion.... On suicide though it isn't discussed. In fact I'd argue there's support for euthanasia just not for everyone. Which means people aren't that dug in. Minds can be changed. The argument and the way it is presented is what is going to matter. If the argument is we are a threat it won't work. If the argument is this isn't thought out it isn't going to work. Some compromise needs to be given. Like I said before I don't think snap decisions will ever make it. Maybe people on here disagree but I don't think it should be impulsively. It should be thought out... Seeing a professional, being evaluated, having a waiting process say a year, and discussing thing surrounding it that must be known beforehand is what is salient. That type of approach could work....

I can only hearken back to the 1970s when discarded fetuses were being left in alleyways and other public areas. It took that type of shock and awe to even begin to penetrate the cultural zeitgeist of that era and give voice to women to create the change they wanted. Obviously, we are in a different era now (politically not culturally) and that issue has once again reared it's ugly head. Nevertheless, it still took shock and awe back then to even bring the issue out of the darkness and to give voice to those affected. Right now, this small community we have doesn't even have a voice outside this small forum, hence (members) "trying to evade detection and make (sure) they aren't caught and the opportunity is ripped away from them." You have to have a voice first before any meaningful change can ever come about. People's attention is not easy to obtain, let alone hold. You have to get their attention first, and with the way things are, it's a hard ask and usually takes extreme measures to even get 15 minutes of fame.

I mean I am not here to discuss abortion though I am happy to do so.... But A) not particularly germane to the conversation B) I would have to read up on the history of abortion in regards to how it became popular in the press to know. That said it has been discussed in some matter since the mid 1800s... I believe a Rubella outbreak had an impact.

You are absolutely correct. In fact I would go as far as saying it will likely never occur. But like I said before. If people are trying to shut us down, etc.... It gives room for countervailing arguments and that's where people's stories and why becomes important.

 

[Wyldfyre4948]

In the good old USA they like to pretend to protect life, but don't really care. If you have mental illness you won't get euthanasia. Instead they'll sell you some guns and show you a map of schools and crowded public places. It's really sad that mental health is treated so poorly in the world in general, and their big fix is to just pump people full of drugs. If you want to end your life you get treated like a criminal and lose all rights because you're a danger to yourself. Maybe euthanasia will be legal for the mentally ill in the USA in 50 years, but given the current political climate and how they keep rolling back rights for non white people and women's reproductive rights its a scary time in general.

Given what's going on politically in just the USA you'd have to be crazy to not want to CTB.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

Most do but if someone is suicidal isn't going to say it for fear it would incentivize suicide. Like I said I think fear of having to explain to God who created you why you committed suicide (murder) should be enough of a fear.

There's more than a billion Catholic Christians who don't.

Ehh same issue. If you scare people to the point where there's a risk of their lives being jeopardy it will create backlash that will be crippling. So again good idea but too destructive. Assuming you still mean self-immolation as well. I'm not sure unless that is how you want to CTB in which case that sounds awful that it is going to help in anyway in terms of what we have discussed....

It doesn't matter the method. You're too literal. The idea is to get the issue to the forefront and noticed.

That is mostly true on say abortion.... On suicide though it isn't discussed. In fact I'd argue there's support for euthanasia just not for everyone. Which means people aren't that dug in. Minds can be changed. The argument and the way it is presented is what is going to matter. If the argument is we are a threat it won't work. If the argument is this isn't thought out it isn't going to work. Some compromise needs to be given. Like I said before I don't think snap decisions will ever make it. Maybe people on here disagree but I don't think it should be impulsively. It should be thought out... Seeing a professional, being evaluated, having a waiting process say a year, and discussing thing surrounding it that must be known beforehand is what is salient. That type of approach could work....

No, it's completely true on abortion and ANY other divisive subject. There is only limited support for euthanasia, and even then there are all kinds of "asterisks" attached to it. People might say one thing, but their stance completely changes when it starts involving one of their own lived ones.

If the argument is we are a threat it won't work.

Never said take anyone else out with you or harm anyone else.

Seeing a professional, being evaluated, having a waiting process say a year, and discussing thing surrounding it that must be known beforehand is what is salient.

Everything you said here is an OUTCOME of any change that could come about. This is not the discussion. The discussion is about fostering the conversation, which has to come first, and you aren't going to get there with a passive voice, a passive voice that isn't even existent on the subject at hand.

History has shown time and time again, whether it be the Civil Rights Movement, Women's Right's Movement, ending the Vietnam War, the Abortion Rights Movement, the fight for Gay rights..................................ALL of these required, and require, some type of in-your-face, shock and awe antics just to get society to even start to pay attention. People don't listen to passive voices. Passive voices are not respected in this world. You have to do things to grab people's attention just to get an iota of respect to even begin to make your argument(s) to them. People need to know that you mean business. You aren't going to persuade hardened minds with lovey-dovey talk. Your ideas may work in a university setting with more cultured, and, frankly, intelligent minds, but it's not going to work for the masses of closed-minded people who inhabit regular society.

I think this discussion has gone on long enough. In the end, it doesn't make one bit of difference what either you, or I, think, as our voices are only being heard by a receptive audience. In full disclosure I have no plans of making my CTB a spectacle in order to foster any kind of change in the collective mindset of the American public. I plan on going out without any fanfare, as selfish as that may be. If you decide to try and get some kind of a discourse going about this topic with society at large, I wish you the best with your muted bullhorn.

 

[brokeandbroken]

There's more than a billion Catholic Christians who don't.

https://www.catholicbridge.com/catholic/suicide-hell-catholic-teaching.php Ehh no. Some do and some don't. The catholic church also sold indulgences so.... Might want to have a look yourself.

It doesn't matter the method. You're too literal. The idea is to get the issue to the forefront and noticed.

I agree. But the optics matter.

No, it's completely true on abortion and ANY other divisive subject. There is only limited support for euthanasia, and even then there are all kinds of "asterisks" attached to it. People might say one thing, but their stance completely changes when it starts involving one of their own lived ones.

That's a good argument. My loved ones may do it? Just curious if your loved ones are potentially going to do it and they have to wait a year.... Yet you cannot care about them enough or show them they have a reason to be alive etc.... I think you are a monster and I don't particularly care. Why don't you be a better person?

Never said take anyone else out with you or harm anyone else.

Yes I know but again optics and how things can be construed. One man's self immolation is the media's lunatic who wanted to set (insert name here) on fire.

Everything you said here is an OUTCOME of any change that could come about. This is not the discussion. The discussion is about fostering the conversation, which has to come first, and you aren't going to get there with a passive voice, a passive voice that isn't even existent on the subject at hand.

History has shown time and time again, whether it be the Civil Rights Movement, Women's Right's Movement, ending the Vietnam War, the Abortion Rights Movement, the fight for Gay rights..................................ALL of these required, and require, some type of in-your-face, shock and awe antics just to get society to even start to pay attention. People don't listen to passive voices. Passive voices are not respected in this world. You have to do things to grab people's attention just to get an iota of respect to even begin to make your argument(s) to them. People need to know that you mean business. You aren't going to persuade hardened minds with lovey-dovey talk. Your ideas may work in a university setting with more cultured, and, frankly, intelligent minds, but it's not going to work for the masses of closed-minded people who inhabit regular society.

I think this discussion has gone on long enough. In the end, it doesn't make one bit of difference what either you, or I, think, as our voices are only being heard by a receptive audience. In full disclosure I have no plans of making my CTB a spectacle in order to foster any kind of change in the collective mindset of the American public. I plan on going out without any fanfare, as selfish as that may be. If you decide to try and get some kind of a discourse going about this topic with society at large, I wish you the best with your muted bullhorn.

Isn't this the discussion? Where else are we going to discuss it? Shouldn't it be reasonably discussed here? I'm just a moron who has his own opinions... What would you prefer?

Did it? All of that was from actions that were in your face *but* non-threatening to the individuals seeing it. For instance civil rights and sit-ins. Yes you need exposure which is what you are discussing. But there is proper and improper exposure. Improper it will never occur. Proper and there's the potential for something to occur positively. I don't think we disagree here.

I'm quite confused to be honest. You seem angry with me. Are you angry I won't light myself on fire on the lawn of my favorite congressman's home? It's idealized there's not going to be camera's it will just be the strangest emergency call ever. Barely make headlines. Both David Buckel (a fairly well known individual) and Wynn Bruce (outside the surpreme court building second attempt the other being 2017) for climate change set themselves on fire one in 2018 the other 2022. Did you read about it? I definitely didn't (until now for an entirely different reason)....

As for when you enter the long good night may it be painless and peaceful.