How can we help psychotic or delusional members on here?

[noname223]

I had psychosis too in the past. I know it can hurt if someone else questions your sanity. If you feel mocked, bullied, followed or spied on it helps when the people listen to you. When they don't believe you it can hurt. But sometimes it is simply the truth. And it is way better to address that instead of keeping quiet in order not to hurt someone.
I have the feeling some people don't have any clue about psychosis and paranoia on the internet/ in general and give dumb/not helpful advices. If someone feels spied on from cyber security agencies it is way more likely (even.../) especially in this forum to be instead mentally ill.
Also religion delusions are very common. I don't like when people make "funny remarks" about delusional people. People also made this about me and when I was rational again it hurt a lot. On Youtube it is a trend to watch delusional people I have seen some Youtuber who made this. Mentally ill are easy targets.

It is important that these people are not strentgthened in their delusion. They should talk to a professional. Take anti-psychotic medication. If they do illegal drugs it is important that they stop taking them. And in my opinion these people should not commit suicide. If a person has an acute psychosis the person cannot make a rational decision. The problem is most don't want to be helped. And we are just some randoms on the internet. People in real life would have to intervene. For us it is very difficult to help. Delusional people are in most cases 100% convinced they are not deceived and believe fully in their delusion.

I don't have the perfect solution for it. There is probably none. But if we do as the examples above I hope it helps even a little bit. Medication and talking to a professional is important in these cases.

 

[Smart No More]

It is really tricky because it's kind of a perfect storm of issues. Like you say some people don't want to be helped and in those instances there's nothing we can do because being able to reach someone is dependent largely on how open they are to your input. I think the most we can do, as you touched upon, is be non judgmental and as understanding as possible. That in itself raises significant challenges as people that suffer psychosis and delusions naturally tend to have extreme and abrasive opinions (however fleeting) and they can express them in confrontational ways. Unintentional as it may be and/or for whatever reason. As we are just randoms it's really hard to come to the situation armed with the right details and forwarning to be understanding as needed. So I guess I'm just reiterating what you said yourself lol. It may not be the best place for people in that state to seek help unfortunately. There are no doubt exeptions to that but generally there are probably more pitfalls for people suffering those issues.

 

[Gordy99]

I am currently on an anti-psychotic medication and have been called delusional. I posted a thread in the recovery section last month outlining my situation. Most people don't believe me. I think it's easier to just assume the person is mentally ill and that there couldn't be any truth to their so called delusions. It's possible to be mentally ill and still be spied on and harassed by others. This situation makes people like me an easy target. I could go through a ton of things that has happened to me in the past and you or anyone else probably wouldn't believe me or would have an alternate story/explanation.

When I was making my dinner earlier today I noticed that an item on my kitchen counter was moved. My mind was slowly going towards the idea that these people let themselves into my home and moved the item. I quickly remembered that I cleaned the counter yesterday after dinner and moved the item. I used to find long and dark hairs in random places in my apartment. No idea who they belonged to considering I live alone, have no pets, and have no visitors. The so called delusion in this case would be me thinking that someone let themselves into my apartment on a regular basis and planted the hairs. There doesn't seem to be a logical explanation other than someone planted the hairs. I would find these same hairs in my last apartment so you can't claim it was somehow from the previous tenants. Anyway, that is just two scenarios in regards to my situation.

I am very tempted to post the three pages worth of stuff that people said about me and reveal tons of information to prove my situation is real. However, I don't want to reveal my identity and most people still probably wouldn't believe me even after posting the information.

I guess my point here is that not everyone who is called delusional is truly delusional. Sometimes there is truth to peoples so called delusions.

 

[Foresight]

I appreciate this post and your advice. I experienced my first episode of psychosis in the past month so I'm not very experienced on the matter.

In regards to religious delusions, I study esoteric ideas for my own pleasure. Off-kilter spiritual ideas don't immediately set off my alarms but there are things I should probably take note of on here to be more cautious in my interactions. I don't want to strengthen delusions.

 

[Smart No More]

It is true that many will labelled dilusional in a medical scenario/setting as its an easy cop out for a professional that has no obvious diagnosis and doesn't want to say they don't know. In a more personal scenario it's possibly even easier to be assumed delusional and people are probably crueler in their accusations so the frustration must be so intense when you believe or even know yourself to be correct. I do think some self doubt is healthy however. It's important to consider the possibility that you may have overlooked something. For example, somebody planting hairs in your home is not impossible so sure, it can't be outright ruled out however follow that scenario through to it's logical conclusion. What would somebody gain from doing so? Who would stand to benefit from doing it. Why would they do it to you in particular. How exactly could they be stealthy enough to enter your home without alerting you? I guess what I'm saying is apply very strict logic to it. Seek to firmly prove or disprove your suspicion and be on the side of fact not opinion. In this specific case you could easily set up a camera on the entrance points of your home. Another thing to be aware of is that we are limited by our experience and imagination. For example, we know the concept of infinity but when we look out into space it's hard to fully comprehend that there is no end to it. I guess this is where the theory of god may originate and look what religion has done to our world. A lack of comprehension is the breeding ground of all sorts of notions and theories but those notions whilst based in logic are often only indicative of the particular logic possessed by the person coming up with them and the circumstances and experiences they're restricted by.

 

[whatevs]

I think you helped the person we both know enough with what you did. For whatever reason, I didn't feel that helpful. There is something about strong delusions that I cannot empathetize with.

However, there WAS a sense of angst and suffering to the person's ramblings. It was wrong to approach the issue like I did.

 

[Gordy99]

It is true that many will labelled dilusional in a medical scenario/setting as its an easy cop out for a professional that has no obvious diagnosis and doesn't want to say they don't know. In a more personal scenario it's possibly even easier to be assumed delusional and people are probably crueler in their accusations so the frustration must be so intense when you believe or even know yourself to be correct. I do think some self doubt is healthy however. It's important to consider the possibility that you may have overlooked something. For example, somebody planting hairs in your home is not impossible so sure, it can't be outright ruled out however follow that scenario through to it's logical conclusion. What would somebody gain from doing so? Who would stand to benefit from doing it. Why would they do it to you in particular. How exactly could they be stealthy enough to enter your home without alerting you? I guess what I'm saying is apply very strict logic to it. Seek to firmly prove or disprove your suspicion and be on the side of fact not opinion. In this specific case you could easily set up a camera on the entrance points of your home. Another thing to be aware of is that we are limited by our experience and imagination. For example, we know the concept of infinity but when we look out into space it's hard to fully comprehend that there is no end to it. I guess this is where the theory of god may originate and look what religion has done to our world. A lack of comprehension is the breeding ground of all sorts of notions and theories but those notions whilst based in logic are often only indicative of the particular logic possessed by the person coming up with them and the circumstances and experiences they're restricted by.

I find it interesting that you are using logic in a situation that isn't logical. The hairs in my apartments is possible as you pointed out. Let's follow it to the conclusion. This group of people (I call them gangstalkers) have their own motivations for screwing with me. I can only theorize that it's a game they play with targets for their own entertainment. This is what I have found from my research. I have setup wired and wireless cameras in my past apartments and they always go offline whenever one of these people enters my apartment. If you are equipped with the right jammers you can render cameras useless. Even if they weren't jamming my wired ethernet camera then all they need to do is knock my internet modem offline before they enter. These people have control of quite a bit and hack into lot's of stuff. Hence why my computers and phones are all hacked.

The point I'm trying to make is that these gangstalkers want the victim to fight back and deploy cameras and other ways to prove this bizarre stuff is happening to them. The victim will lose every time. It took me over a decade to figure that out.

Here is another example of a so called delusion. Keep an open mind and realize that not all locksmiths out there are ethical. About 3 years ago these people were confronting me quite a bit. I can remember staying at my parents house for a long weekend and had Monday off. The coffee machine in the house was broken Monday morning so I drove about 15 minutes away to a gas station to get coffee. Along the way I spotted one of the people behind this campaign of harassment. He pulled out in front of me and I got angry so I followed him and passed the gas station. I didn't go too far past the gas station because he pulled into a nearby street and just sat there. I had a taser with me and was ready to confront him and wreck his life. I sat in my car which was behind his car for about 5 minutes and decided it wasn't worth it. I went to the gas station, got my coffee, and sat in the parking lot for about an hour. During this time my parents were both out of the house. By the time I got home it was several hours later. My Dad had just gotten home before me and let their new dog out of its crate. The dog was usually very playful and this particular instance it was sitting still and oddly shaking. It was almost as if the dog was partially paralyzed. My Dad freaked out and called my Mom who quickly came home. They went to a nearby vet to get it checked out. According to my parents the dog returned to normal about 10 minutes into the visit (it was an hour drive to the vet). The vet said the dog may have ingested an illicit substance from the house. My parents don't do drugs and I wasn't on medication at the time. There were no illicit substances in the house. My theory is the guy I followed didn't appreciate that I followed him and went to my parents house and quickly injected the dog with some type of substance. It was enough to cause concern and mainly a message to me that said F off. I didn't say anything to my parents because I knew they wouldn't believe me. Interestingly enough my Dad noted to me the next day that his wireless camera that covered the driveway went offline for about 20 minutes while we were all gone.

Anyway, sorry to derail this thread. I just don't like being called delusional.

 

[Smart No More]

Everything is logical. That is to say there is a logic to be apllied to everything. Nothing can happen without logic. Science is in everything. And for what it's worth I didn't call you delusional. I just tried to offer some thoughts on getting to the bottom of things. I was attempting to understand and maybe help somehow. I guess it depends how open you are to that. I don't expect you to trust me or even listen to me. We don't know each other so why would you. I get it. I'm not your enemy though. Just to be clear.

You mentioned the gangstalkers have their own reasons for victimising you. Could you elaborate?

Also, a thought on the guy you followed. Maybe he didn't appreciate being followed. For the sake of offering another possible perspective on that, he could have stopped his car and sat waiting because he noticed he was being followed as you say and was intimidated and didn't want to lead you to his home. That would be understandable behavior. It would be equally understandable of a stranger that did not know you. I wouldn't lead a stranger home if I saw them following me.
With the dog, he would have to assume that you would somehow know that he drugged the dog if he was attempting to send a message. He left it pretty vague. He left nothing to indicate he'd done it. So for such a mastermind he's not all that clever as you could easily have not put the two things together. He didn't know that someone was due home and would let the dog out the crate and that you would notice the dog shivering. The sequence of events could have gone very differently. He would have to be carrying said drug around with him to potentially and randomly administer it to a dog of a particular weight. There are quite a lot of variables to cater for in that scenario. The dog was new so it's not like he would have that info to hand wven if surveiling you and if he did he would have to have predicted the possibility that you would run into each other and that you'd follow him and that he'd beed to retaliate to send a message. With all this forethought he didn't think to prepare something to indicate he was doing it in order for you to know that he was sending you a message. I'm far from ignorant to the games people can play with others and they can get intricate to the point of evil however they are almost always based around either some element of gain or control and involve people in relationships of one kind or another. There is always some kind of pay off because they're each invested in the relationship in one way or another. There's no payoff for a stranger. So that leads me back to my question about the gangstalkers motives. What are they?

Don't worry, I don't inted to continually question you on this subject. I'm certainly intrigued but it's probably not conducive to any beneficial outcome for you or myself to follow you down a rabbit hole. A part of me really wants to in order to attempt to help you whatever the case truly is but I suspect we may never get to that stage and I may just make things worse by poking the hornets nest and/or poking my nose in where it doesn't belong. I'll just reiterate that I'm remaining neutral out of respect for you and respect for logic. I'm a friendly. I have no desire to label you, ridicule you or discredit you.

 

[Gordy99]

Everything is logical. That is to say there is a logic to be apllied to everything. Nothing can happen without logic. Science is in everything. And for what it's worth I didn't call you delusional. I just tried to offer some thoughts on getting to the bottom of things. I was attempting to understand and maybe help somehow. I guess it depends how open you are to that. I don't expect you to trust me or even listen to me. We don't know each other so why would you. I get it. I'm not your enemy though. Just to be clear.

You mentioned the gangstalkers have their own reasons for victimising you. Could you elaborate?

Also, a thought on the guy you followed. Maybe he didn't appreciate being followed. For the sake of offering another possible perspective on that, he could have stopped his car and sat waiting because he noticed he was being followed as you say and was intimidated and didn't want to lead you to his home. That would be understandable behavior. It would be equally understandable of a stranger that did not know you. I wouldn't lead a stranger home if I saw them following me.
With the dog, he would have to assume that you would somehow know that he drugged the dog if he was attempting to send a message. He left it pretty vague. He left nothing to indicate he'd done it. So for such a mastermind he's not all that clever as you could easily have not put the two things together. He didn't know that someone was due home and would let the dog out the crate and that you would notice the dog shivering. The sequence of events could have gone very differently. He would have to be carrying said drug around with him to potentially and randomly administer it to a dog of a particular weight. There are quite a lot of variables to cater for in that scenario. The dog was new so it's not like he would have that info to hand wven if surveiling you and if he did he would have to have predicted the possibility that you would run into each other and that you'd follow him and that he'd beed to retaliate to send a message. With all this forethought he didn't think to prepare something to indicate he was doing it in order for you to know that he was sending you a message. I'm far from ignorant to the games people can play with others and they can get intricate to the point of evil however they are almost always based around either some element of gain or control and involve people in relationships of one kind or another. There is always some kind of pay off because they're each invested in the relationship in one way or another. There's no payoff for a stranger. So that leads me back to my question about the gangstalkers motives. What are they?

Don't worry, I don't inted to continually question you on this subject. I'm certainly intrigued but it's probably not conducive to any beneficial outcome for you or myself to follow you down a rabbit hole. A part of me really wants to in order to attempt to help you whatever the case truly is but I suspect we may never get to that stage and I may just make things worse by poking the hornets nest and/or poking my nose in where it doesn't belong. I'll just reiterate that I'm remaining neutral out of respect for you and respect for logic. I'm a friendly. I have no desire to label you, ridicule you or discredit you.

To clarify...I didn't think you called me delusional. My psychiatrist did several years ago. I made that statement out of context. Sorry for the confusion and I don't think you are an enemy. I'm just trying to state my case.

Unfortunately I can't elaborate on the gangstalking motives because I don't know them with 100% certainty. It's not like they called or e-mailed me and said hey we are stalking/harassing you for these reasons. I can only come up with theories based on research of gangstalking. One theory is that they aim to destroy every aspect of a victims life and drive them to insanity and suicide. Home and car break in's through the use of locksmiths and alarm technicians is very common based on my research. In the beginning the victim is usually desperate to prove that something is happening to them. From what I have read these gangstalkers sometimes leave evidence that will frame other innocent people if you call the police.

I get your point of view in regards to the dog scenario that I explained. Is it really that far fetched for a criminal to carry certain substances that can be used on people or animals? I don't know everything about this particular criminal who I think drugged my parents dog but perhaps he is using these substances on other animals or people on a regular basis. You didn't mention anything about me carrying a taser. I didn't know that I would encounter this person on that day and end up following him. I was carrying a taser with me for several months because I was in a state of hypervigilance. Just trying to point out that people carry certain things with them at all times for their own reasons.

This person that I followed is connected to the gangstalkers. They are spying on my entire family. My Mom purchased the dog online through the use of her computer. They would know the exact type of dog she had. Obviously he didn't know I was going to follow him but once I did it probably upset him. Since they are spying on me and my entire family (phones/computers) they would know that none of us were home and that I was sitting in a gas station parking lot. I will say that the person who drugged my parents dog 'probably' has experience with this type of behavior. If he injected too much of the drug it could have caused the dog to die. Not to sound arrogant....but these people know that I am intelligent and that I would connect the dots between following the guy I followed and the dog having problems hours later.

You are entitled to your beliefs and opinions and it doesn't upset me if we don't agree. You can keep questioning me if you want. It doesn't bother me. I don't have all the answers and I'm willing to be wrong. Most delusional people refuse to be wrong. Several months ago I ran into an issue in my life and I immediately assumed that it was the gangstalkers. Long story short, I explained the situation to my Mom and she said that there is an issue with this particular company I'm doing business with and it's probably impacting all of their customers. After a lot of phone calls I discovered that tons of other people were having the same issue as me. I was wrong and admitted that I was wrong. I just want you to know that I'm ok with being wrong.

 

[whatevs]

To clarify...I didn't think you called me delusional. My psychiatrist did several years ago. I made that statement out of context. Sorry for the confusion and I don't think you are an enemy. I'm just trying to state my case.

Unfortunately I can't elaborate on the gangstalking motives because I don't know them with 100% certainty. It's not like they called or e-mailed me and said hey we are stalking/harassing you for these reasons. I can only come up with theories based on research of gangstalking. One theory is that they aim to destroy every aspect of a victims life and drive them to insanity and suicide. Home and car break in's through the use of locksmiths and alarm technicians is very common based on my research. In the beginning the victim is usually desperate to prove that something is happening to them. From what I have read these gangstalkers sometimes leave evidence that will frame other innocent people if you call the police.

I get your point of view in regards to the dog scenario that I explained. Is it really that far fetched for a criminal to carry certain substances that can be used on people or animals? I don't know everything about this particular criminal who I think drugged my parents dog but perhaps he is using these substances on other animals or people on a regular basis. You didn't mention anything about me carrying a taser. I didn't know that I would encounter this person on that day and end up following him. I was carrying a taser with me for several months because I was in a state of hypervigilance. Just trying to point out that people carry certain things with them at all times for their own reasons.

This person that I followed is connected to the gangstalkers. They are spying on my entire family. My Mom purchased the dog online through the use of her computer. They would know the exact type of dog she had. Obviously he didn't know I was going to follow him but once I did it probably upset him. Since they are spying on me and my entire family (phones/computers) they would know that none of us were home and that I was sitting in a gas station parking lot. I will say that the person who drugged my parents dog 'probably' has experience with this type of behavior. If he injected too much of the drug it could have caused the dog to die. Not to sound arrogant....but these people know that I am intelligent and that I would connect the dots between following the guy I followed and the dog having problems hours later.

You are entitled to your beliefs and opinions and it doesn't upset me if we don't agree. You can keep questioning me if you want. It doesn't bother me. I don't have all the answers and I'm willing to be wrong. Most delusional people refuse to be wrong. Several months ago I ran into an issue in my life and I immediately assumed that it was the gangstalkers. Long story short, I explained the situation to my Mom and she said that there is an issue with this particular company I'm doing business with and it's probably impacting all of their customers. After a lot of phone calls I discovered that tons of other people were having the same issue as me. I was wrong and admitted that I was wrong. I just want you to know that I'm ok with being wrong.

Do you have footage or anything tangible to back up the gang-stalking claims? Share it with us.

 

[Gordy99]

Do you have footage or anything tangible to back up the gang-stalking claims? Share it with us.

Unfortunately no I don't have any footage. I just have experiences that I can recall.

 

[Gordy99]

I just remembered that part of my brief documentation includes license plates of some of the stalkers and hackers. It's probably against the rules to post this information. Also, to be valid I would have to post the state that the license plate is from which would give away the state that I live in.

This information is from about 2 years ago. The rest of my documentation includes things that people have said about me which doesn't prove gangstalking. It just proves my naked picture situation. If I post that information it will reveal personal details about me.

 

[Smart No More]

If I thought this was happening to me the main question eating away at me would be why. I couldn't leave that unanswered because my instinct is to break it down to find the cause and potentially the solution.


Carrying a taster or any other weapon of defence is quite different to carrying a specific drug. Also for somebody to have the instinct to carry something like that they'd also be carrying a whole load of other tools and implements. They'd be operating like special forces or something which lets be honest, would have better things to be doing than bothering you.

Being so organised and monitoring your position, parked up at a gas station would mean they wouldn't accidentally bump into you. If they're monitoring your location and activities such as purchasing they would be doing it 24/7. Just for a moment think about everything that would beed to go through a persons mind following you annoying him by following him less than a mile. They would need to question how they could send a message first. Then consider various options. They would have to check their intel, come up with their plan which would mean checking where you and your family are, that the dog would be home (they wouldn't know this as the dog isn't being monitored right?. Could be out eith a family member) tjen they would have to get to your home, disable the cameras, unlock the door, (all the time at the threat of somebody coming home even if they're monitoring you in real time, which would actually negate this whole situation as they would bever have bumped into you in the first place) they'd then have to inject the dog with the correct amount for its weight, relock the doors, renable the cameras and leave. I haven't even covered things like securty/alarms. The travel time.

You made a very poignant statement at the start of your post. You said 'I can only theorise based on my research on gang stalking'. You actually can't say for certain why they're targeting you.

Leaving hairs to annoy someone has an extremely high chance of doing nothing. I've found long hairs in my home before now. I thought notbing of it. Just figure it blew in or came in on my clothes or whatever. Got on with life.

There would need to be something particularly significant about you for someone to have you and your family under 24 hour surveillance in order to mess with you. They would need unlimited funds and zero life. Do you consider yourself 'special' enough for somebody or even an organisation to put all these resources in flakey efforts of getting to you. It doesn't take intelligence to assume they drugged your dog. It's not an inteligent conclusion. Neither is noticing long hairs. It's pure chance that these things would be attributed to being attempts to get under your skin. You might argue that they didn't want you to work out that the hairs were done by them. In which case, why bother because honestly, who is going to be all that bothered about some odd hairs found in their home. The very most any rational person is going to think is "that's odd" and maybe they'll go as far as to mention it in passing to friend and have a 'ooo that's spooky' conversation and then forget about it entirely. A highly oeganised group of gangstalkers would be doing a terrible job if that was the fruit of their labours. There are much quicker and more effective ways of driving a person to despair. Bigger payoffs to be had and way way shorter timescales.

Bare in mind that you're talking about years of torment here. They would need such a large amount of money and resources to get nothing out of it. It's very far fetched.

Think of how certain you were when you had the conversation with your mother. It took a lot of phoning around until you were able to accept you were wrong. Think of how certain you were until proven wrong. If you hadn't been proven wrong you would still be convinced now, that your incorrect belief was real. I say this as I hope it will help you open up to the possibility of sone of your other theories to be questionable. You say you are open to being wrong. I think everyone is in the face of undeniable proof. The question is do you apply the same amount of undeniability to the proof of being right? That is to say a theory is not a fact until proven correct and without undeniable proof your beliefs about being gangstalked can strictly only be called theories.

Let me ask a question. You don't need to answer it. I just want you to ask yourself the question honestly. Really just take a moment to ask yourself what would it mean if this was wrong? How would it make you feel if you had put all this together and incorrectly assumed it? Would it knock your pride or ego. Is it something you could live with and accept or does the fear of facing this possibility drive you to look further into it?

If you're right about the gang stalkers do you think they're following your online activity here for example?

There's is one way you could defeat them. It's really easy. Stop caring about it. Fuck the hairs. The dog is still alive. Don't worry about that. Just forget them. Don't let them bother you. In all these years they haven't done anything that has physically harmed you or anyone you know or love. They're really acheiving nothing. Unless their aim is to get a middle of the road response from you in the form of some suspicion and paranoia. Even if it led you to suicide it would be the most uneventful, low drama lead upto it that they're surely all looking at each other thinking, "fuck man, we suck at this". I suggest arming yourself with a big dose of 'don't give a fuck' and just tone them out like you would an annoying noise. If they're getting no payoff they'll either move on or ramp things up to a point where you can show undeniable proof. Honestly nobody is infallible. Look at our politicians who constantly get caught doing silly shit and they have a multimillion dolar security detail and pr crew. They really are 24/7 and they trip up constantly.

There's too much work for an organisation to put in to slightly niggle you. Just forget them and move on and hope they do the same. It's win win for you if you take that approach in my opinion and based on what you've said.

 

[noname223]

If I thought this was happening to me the my main question would be why. I couldn't leave that open.


Carrying a taster or any other weapon of defence is quite different to carrying a specific drug. Also for somebody to have the instinct to carry something like that they'd also be carrying a whole load of other tools and implements. They'd be operating like special forces or something which lets be honest, would have better things to be doing than bothering you.

Being so organised and monitoring your position, parked up at a gas station would mean they wouldn't accidentally bump into you. If they're monitoring your location and activities such as purchasing they would be doing it 24/7. Just for a moment think about everything that would beed to go through a persons mind following you annoying him by following him less than a mile. They would need to question how they could send a message first. Then consider various options. They would have to check their intel, come up with their plan which would mean checking where you and your family are, that the dog would be home (they wouldn't know this as the dog isn't being monitored right?. Could be out eith a family member) tjen they would have to get to your home, disable the cameras, unlock the door, (all the time at the threat of somebody coming home even if they're monitoring you in real time, which would actually negate this whole situation as they would bever have bumped into you in the first place) they'd then have to inject the dog with the correct amount for its weight, relock the doors, renable the cameras and leave. I haven't even covered things like securty/alarms. The travel time.

You made a very poignant statement at the start of your post. You said 'I can only theorise based on my research on gang stalking'. You actually can't say for certain why they're targeting you.

Leaving hairs to annoy someone has an extremely high chance of doing nothing. I've found long hairs in my home before now. I thought notbing of it. Just figure it blew in or came in on my clothes or whatever. Got on with life.

There would need to be something particularly significant about you for someone to have you and your family under 24 hour surveillance in order to mess with you. They would need unlimited funds and zero life. Do you consider yourself 'special' enough for somebody or even an organisation to put all these resources in flakey efforts of getting to you. It doesn't take intelligence to assume they drugged your dog. It's not an inteligent conclusion. Neither is noticing long hairs. It's pure chance that these things would be attributed to being attempts to get under your skin. You might argue that they didn't want you to work out that the hairs were done by them. In which case, why bother because honestly, who is going to be all that bothered about some odd hairs found in their home. The very most any rational person is going to think is "that's odd" and maybe they'll go as far as to mention it in passing to friend and have a 'ooo that's spooky' conversation and then forget about it entirely. A highly oeganised group of gangstalkers would be doing a terrible job if that was the fruit of their labours. There are much quicker and more effective ways of driving a person to despair. Bigger payoffs to be had and way way shorter timescales.

Bare in mind that you're talking about years of torment here. They would need such a large amount of money and resources to get nothing out of it. It's very far fetched.

Think of how certain you were when you had the conversation with your mother. It took a lot of phoning around until you were able to accept you were wrong. Think of how certain you were until proven wrong. If you hadn't been proven wrong you would still be convinced now, that your incorrect belief was real. I say this as I hope it will help you open up to the possibility of sone of your other theories to be questionable. You say you are open to being wrong. I think everyone is in the face of undeniable proof. The question is do you apply the same amount of undeniability to the proof of being right? That is to say a theory is not a fact until proven correct and without undeniable proof your beliefs about being gangstalked can strictly only be called theories.

Let me ask a question. You don't need to answer it. I just want you to ask yourself the question honestly. Really just take a moment to ask yourself what would it mean if this was wrong? How would it make you feel if you had put all this together and incorrectly assumed it? Would it knock your pride or ego. Is it something you could live with and accept or does the fear of facing this possibility drive you to look further into it?

If you're right about the gang stalkers do you think they're following your online activity here for example?

There's is one way you could defeat them. It's really easy. Stop caring about it. Fuck the hairs. The dog is still alive. Don't worry about that. Just forget them. Don't let them bother you. In all these years they haven't done anything that has physically harmed you or anyone you know or love. They're really acheiving nothing. Unless their aim is to get a middle of the road response from you in the form of some suspicion and paranoia. Even if it led you to suicide it would be the most uneventful, low drama lead upto it that they're surely all looking at each other thinking, "fuck man, we suck at this". I suggest arming yourself with a big dose of 'don't give a fuck' and just tone them out like you would an annoying noise. If they're getting no payoff they'll either move on or ramp things up to a point where you can show undeniable proof. Honestly nobody is infallible. Look at our politicians who constantly get caught doing silly shit and they have a multimillion dolar security detail and pr crew. They really are 24/7 and they trip up constantly.

There's too much work for an organisation to put in to slightly niggle you. Just forget them and move on and hope they do the same. It's win win for you if you take that approach in my opinion and based on what you've said.

I don't want to hurt you @Gordy99 . I had psychosis and delusional thoughts in the past too. I have met a lot of people with delusional thoughts. I know it hurts when someone says straight to your face that you are delusional. But in my opinion it is clear your thoughts are paranoid and caused by a mental illness. I really admire @Smart No More for having this debate and engaging in it with such an effort. But I think logical reasoning does not help in many cases.

I have learned something. If a psychiatrist or doctor who studied medicine and tells you you are delusional in 99 per cent of the cases the professional is right and not the patient who think he/she is not delusional. I already see this argument incoming but what is with the rest. The leaving 1% where the patient is right...yeah it is just a saying... A huge part of being delusional is not being able to see that one is delusional. It is extreme hard work to learn that. For that medication, experience and often literature is needed.
As I said I don't want to hurt you. But delusional people are always very convinced like 100% that they are not delusional...

Do you have a diagnosis of a professional you have met? Was it psychosis or schizophrenia? Do you take medication against it? Do they help?

 

[Gordy99]

I don't want to hurt you @Gordy99 . I had psychosis and delusional thoughts in the past too. I have met a lot of people with delusional thoughts. I know it hurts when someone says straight to your face that you are delusional. But in my opinion it is clear your thoughts are paranoid and caused by a mental illness. I really admire @Smart No More for having this debate and engaging in it with such an effort. But I think logical reasoning does not help in many cases.

I have learned something. If a psychiatrist or doctor who studied medicine and tells you you are delusional in 99 per cent of the cases the professional is right and not the patient who think he/she is not delusional. I already see this argument incoming but what is with the rest. The leaving 1% where the patient is right...yeah it is just a saying... A huge part of being delusional is not being able to see that one is delusional. It is extreme hard work to learn that. For that medication, experience and often literature is needed.
As I said I don't want to hurt you. But delusional people are always very convinced like 100% that they are not delusional...

Do you have a diagnosis of a professional you have met? Was it psychosis or schizophrenia? Do you take medication against it? Do they help?

I'm not going to respond to Smart No More's post because I just don't have the energy to debate it. I thought I did but I don't. It's obvious that we aren't going to agree with each other so I don't want to keep trying to prove what is happening to me.

My psychiatrist diagnosed me with unspecified psychosis. She never told me that I'm schizophrenic but the risperdal I'm taking would lead you to believe that is the case. The medication helps keep my mood in check and it helps me stay calm (I also take klonopin). Despite the high or low doses of the medicine I still maintain that all of this stuff is happening to me.

I'm not special. Far from it. It truly makes no sense that I would be targeted along with my family. I don't have any good answers. I wish I did.

 

[Smart No More]

I'm sorry if I pushed too hard @Gordy99. My intentions were good if a little selfish as I have a weak spot for problem solving. It's not my business though and you don't need to convince me in either direction. TBH I think these conversations are better had in private anyway and I kind of feel bad for putting your thoughts and experiences under scrutiny on an open forum. It's not really fair so I apologise. I really just saw an opportunity to apply my own logic and hoped it might help but I'm not qualified to offer assistance so should know better.

I'm sure there's plenty more to your situation that I have no idea about. So much more and too much for you to voice to a stranger on the Internet. I don't know shit. Purely as a layman and a friendly acquaintance I'd like to offer up my proposed solution again. Ignore the fuckers. Don't give them what they want. They can't do anything to you if you choose not to react.

All the best man!

 

[noaccount]

Hi @noname223 . It is important to realized that these terms, are highly subjective, and morally-loaded. What sets "a belief that others might disagree with" apart from "a belief that's considered psychotic," is socially-relative - anyone with strong political convictions might say that people from an opposing camp are "delusional," and those people might throw the same accusation right back in return. Or, for instance, having a religion is by definition about believing in things that are not rational or provable - so some might say that any religious person is psychotic for not instead being an atheist, rationalist, or freethinker - but to reduce all religious experience to "psychosis" would be to strip away and ignore many layers of spiritual meaning.

Please keep in mind that other people have the right to have beliefs you think are wrong, just not the right to act on them in ways that hurt others. This is a good metric that I use, both for when talking to people with highly-unusual beliefs, and when dealing with people who think that their largely-socially-accepted-beliefs - nationalism, sexism, etc - give them the right to mistreat others.

"People have the right to have questionable or unusual thoughts" is, unfortunately, a radically-countercultural idea, in a society where forced and coercive psychiatry are used to thought-police disabled people and beat dissident ideas out of them. Let's make sure this is a consistently pro-choice space that doesn't reinforce that kind of coercion.

 

[Gordy99]

I'm sorry if I pushed too hard @Gordy99. My intentions were good if a little selfish as I have a weak spot for problem solving. It's not my business thouhh and you don't need to convince me in either direction. TBH I think these conversations are better had in private anyway and I kind of feel bad for putting your thoughts and experiences under scrutiny on an open forum. It's not really fair so I apologise. I really just saw an opportunity to apply my own logic and hoped it might help but I'm not qualified to offer assistance so should know better.

I'm sure there's plenty more to your situation that I have no idea about. So much more and too much for you to voice to a stranger on the Internet. I don't know shit. Purely as a layman and a friendly acquaintance I'd like to offer up my proposed solution again. Ignore the fuckers. Don't give them what they want. They can't do anything to you if you choose not to react.

All the best man!

You didn't necessarily push too hard and I'm not upset. I just don't have the energy to go back and forth. I can only provide so many details without giving away my identity. I enjoy problem solving too and am actually a logical person. However, I used to get stuck on the why this was happening and decided the why doesn't seem logical. So I stopped trying to figure out the why...hence why I only have a few theories.

I agree that ignoring these people is the best solution. It's something I have been doing for the past 2 years. It just sometimes feels good venting about it on here because the different opinions and perspectives are interesting to me. Therapists and psychiatrists simply don't believe me or won't believe me. They won't try to logically think things through like you did regardless of whether I agree with you. This is just my experience with them though. I'm not saying all therapists and psychiatrists are like this.

Anyway, I wish you the best and hopefully my situation turns around.

 

[Auto Immunity After]

I think you helped the person we both know enough with what you did. For whatever reason, I didn't feel that helpful. There is something about strong delusions that I cannot empathetize with.

However, there WAS a sense of angst and suffering to the person's ramblings. It was wrong to approach the issue like I did.

I have spoken in private chat with the member. We used to chat all the time, he does not believe he is suffering from any type of psychosis whatsoever. He said he is thinking more clearly than ever before. I begged him to take a step back and just rest and think about anything other than what he has been posting. I am very concerned for him, especially considering that his country does not openly believe in treating mental illness or even acknowleding it. He is close to his mother I hope she can see his suffering and reach out to him.

 

[rudebeat]

I have learned something. If a psychiatrist or doctor who studied medicine and tells you you are delusional in 99 per cent of the cases the professional is right and not the patient who think he/she is not delusional. I already see this argument incoming but what is with the rest. The leaving 1% where the patient is right...yeah it is just a saying... A huge part of being delusional is not being able to see that one is delusional. It is extreme hard work to learn that. For that medication, experience and often literature is needed.
As I said I don't want to hurt you. But delusional people are always very convinced like 100% that they are not delusional...

This is just my one off anecdote but based off of what happened to me I'd assume the amount of people misdiagnosed with psychosis is a bit higher than 1%. I was hospitalized last year because off some health conditions that were driving me to suicide. When I was younger I always listened to things at max volume because I assumed I'd commit suicide before I experienced any consequences from it.
In 2020 I got tinnitus. In 2021 my vision became filled with static which is something associated with getting tinnitus, it's called visual snow. As soon as I got that condition I got some of the other symptoms of the condition, my eyes became very sensitive to light, I started seeing random moving dots whenever I looked at something bright, especially outside, and I started getting after image in my vision.
My doctors were worried about this and recommended I get an MRI. During the MRI I got a new type of tinnitus which gradually got louder and louder throughout the MRI. A bit after it was over I started experiencing pain from quiet noises as if they were extremely loud. This is called as hyperacusis and can happen due to exposure due to loud noise. Again, I checked off all the marks for the other symptoms before even knowing what the other symptoms were.

Once I got into the hospital what did the psychiatrist tell me? Since the MRI came up negative and since I only had a small amount of hearing loss I couldn't really have these conditions, and I must have psychosis. This was supposed to be a good hospital. Even when I explained to the doctor how much noise I'd been exposed to and how I didn't know all of the symptoms of these conditions before thinking I had them, and how all of them were associated with noise exposure, the doctor didn't care. If this is how much a psychiatrist is willing to ignore everything their patient is trying to explain to them I'd expect misdiagnoses would be a bit higher than 1%.

Given all of that I don't think it would be extremely higher. Also I didn't mean to come in here and start a debate I'm just stating my experience.

Edit: Forgot to mention the fact that the MRI came up negative didn't even matter because I read online the condition I have only shows up on a PET scan.

 

[Smart No More]

This is just my one off anecdote but based off of what happened to me I'd assume the amount of people misdiagnosed with psychosis is a bit higher than 1%. I was hospitalized last year because off some health conditions that were driving me to suicide. When I was younger I always listened to things at max volume because I assumed I'd commit suicide before I experienced any consequences from it.
In 2020 I got tinnitus. In 2021 my vision became filled with static which is something associated with getting tinnitus, it's called visual snow. As soon as I got that condition I got some of the other symptoms of the condition, my eyes became very sensitive to light, I started seeing random moving dots whenever I looked at something bright, especially outside, and I started getting after image in my vision.
My doctors were worried about this and recommended I get an MRI. During the MRI I got a new type of tinnitus which gradually got louder and louder throughout the MRI. A bit after it was over I started experiencing pain from quiet noises as if they were extremely loud. This is called as hyperacusis and can happen due to exposure due to loud noise. Again, I checked off all the marks for the other symptoms before even knowing what the other symptoms were.

Once I got into the hospital what did the psychiatrist tell me? Since the MRI came up negative and since I only had a small amount of hearing loss I couldn't really have these conditions, and I must have psychosis. This was supposed to be a good hospital. Even when I explained to the doctor how much noise I'd been exposed to and how I didn't know all of the symptoms of these conditions before thinking I had them, and how all of them were associated with noise exposure, the doctor didn't care. If this is how much a psychiatrist is willing to ignore everything their patient is trying to explain to them I'd expect misdiagnoses would be a bit higher than 1%.

Given all of that I don't think it would be extremely higher. Also I didn't mean to come in here and start a debate I'm just stating my experience.

Edit: Forgot to mention the fact that the MRI came up negative didn't even matter because I read online the condition I have only shows up on a PET scan.

There is so much misdiagnosis going on!

I think a major part of the problem is that once you get referred to a department they have decided you will have a condition that falls within said department. ie psych, gastro, cardio etc. Its they don't look at things holistically and don't communicate between departments. If you have a cancer that impacts many areas of health they will treat you for individual issues and often never delve into the relativaty of the other issues past your word. It probably improves as you're spiraling the plug hole and can't travel between departments and the specialists have to visit you but at the ealier end of the scale to the semi healthy person coming referred by a general practicioner you're going into a situation where they'll fit your symptoms into their preconceptions. It's painfully frustrating and quite insulting. Not to mention terribly poor practice.

 

[noname223]

Hi @noname223 . It is important to realized that these terms, are highly subjective, and morally-loaded. What sets "a belief that others might disagree with" apart from "a belief that's considered psychotic," is socially-relative - anyone with strong political convictions might say that people from an opposing camp are "delusional," and those people might throw the same accusation right back in return. Or, for instance, having a religion is by definition about believing in things that are not rational or provable - so some might say that any religious person is psychotic for not instead being an atheist, rationalist, or freethinker - but to reduce all religious experience to "psychosis" would be to strip away and ignore many layers of spiritual meaning.

Please keep in mind that other people have the right to have beliefs you think are wrong, just not the right to act on them in ways that hurt others. This is a good metric that I use, both for when talking to people with highly-unusual beliefs, and when dealing with people who think that their largely-socially-accepted-beliefs - nationalism, sexism, etc - give them the right to mistreat others.

"People have the right to have questionable or unusual thoughts" is, unfortunately, a radically-countercultural idea, in a society where forced and coercive psychiatry are used to thought-police disabled people and beat dissident ideas out of them. Let's make sure this is a consistently pro-choice space that doesn't reinforce that kind of coercion.

When I think about being delusional I mostly mean the definiton from the ICD-10. It is used by therapists to classify mental illnesses and is accepted in many countries and different societies on this earth. If you mean societies with for example magical thinking I think we should ignore them an instead use scientifical methods for diagnosis.

Moreover your example calling someone delusional because he has another political worldview does not fit to the ICD-10 definiton. I am rather in favor of science when it comes to psychosis. I know in some areas they treat people with psychois as shamen. I think this is only superstition.

 

[whatevs]

@Gordy99 I will be honest and this is done in good faith, to help you. I am a huge conspiracy theorist and will never take the vaccine. These are my credentials in the realm of paranoia, so you know that I am more than open for such ideas.

There was nothing in your posts that made your gang-stalking case credible. I think you have persecutory feelings/thoughts and then craft this non-existing conspiracy. Particularly the idea that trying to prove it with cameras or whatever just make it worse or they can "jam" the cameras is particularly telling. Can't you see that your delusions have a life of their own, and they seeded this idea in your mind so that conveniently you don't need to prove what is supposedly being done to you?

Gang-stalking is interesting, because in theory you could actually destroy someone with it, driving them to suicide, but you need a motivation and also the details have to make sense. A nobody being harassed by professional hackers that use jammers and monitor all the PCs related to him or her is absurd. That operation is very expensive, why are you deserving of it? It's your mind that's doing this to you.

 

[noaccount]

When I think about being delusional I mostly mean the definiton from the ICD-10. It is used by therapists to classify mental illnesses and is accepted in many countries and different societies on this earth. If you mean societies with for example magical thinking I think we should ignore them an instead use scientifical methods for diagnosis.

Moreover your example calling someone delusional because he has another political worldview does not fit to the ICD-10 definiton. I am rather in favor of science when it comes to psychosis. I know in some areas they treat people with psychois as shamen. I think this is only superstition.

Dear. People have an inalienable human right to their own thoughts, their own minds. You must recognize, that we live in a society that violates this right regularly, on a mass scale, pushing "help" on people against their will, caging and assaulting them until they agree to give up their unusual beliefs. This is a pro-choice site. We don't do that here. There are many things that can be done to a person against their will, and "help" is not one of them.

Survivors of forced psychiatric intervention, and the dehumanizing invalidation by doctors that goes along with it, have congregated at the Hearing Voices Network, Phoenix Rising and the Psychiatric Survivor Archives, Recovery In The Bin, MindFreedom International, Therapy Abuse Link Line, and elsewhere.

The "science" is not nearly so solid as you think it is. It's easy to point out, countless examples of black people talking about being followed around stores and profiled by police, and called psychotic for it. This is the rule rather than the exception, for how the medical establishment treats the oppressed. All societies, by the way, have magical thinking. A Catholic school is not less superstitious than a shaman's following.

 

[noname223]

Dear. People have an inalienable human right to their own thoughts, their own minds. You must recognize, that we live in a society that violates this right regularly, on a mass scale, pushing "help" on people against their will, caging and assaulting them until they agree to give up their unusual beliefs. This is a pro-choice site. We don't do that here. There are many things that can be done to a person against their will, and "help" is not one of them.

Survivors of forced psychiatric intervention, and the dehumanizing invalidation by doctors that goes along with it, have congregated at the Hearing Voices Network, Phoenix Rising and the Psychiatric Survivor Archives, Recovery In The Bin, MindFreedom International, Therapy Abuse Link Line, and elsewhere.

The "science" is not nearly so solid as you think it is. It's easy to point out, countless examples of black people talking about being followed around stores and profiled by police, and called psychotic for it. This is the rule rather than the exception, for how the medical establishment treats the oppressed. All societies, by the way, have magical thinking. A Catholic school is not less superstitious than a shaman's following.

Just because we also have magical thinking in our society e.g. cathloic religious beliefs I really doubt we should follow their advice in such a mental health issue. Psychotic people were in a way worse situation before the modern psychiatry was a thing. In countries without a psychiatry system they are often locked in cages and decades ago religious people did exorsism with them.

I know many people with psychosis who reject medication. They are often homeless, are in huge debt because of it and suffer extremely painful lives.
I don't have the notion that this is the expression of their free will. Instead it is a cause of their mentall illness.
Oh and of course you cannot really compare someone who is depressed with someone who is psychotic.

I reallly do believe in science. I don't really believe your argument that countless of black people are called psychotic for those thoughts you mentioned. I have a high trust in science and statistics. There are different kind of clinics for psychotic patients. They have different approaches how to handle psychotic episodes. Some prescribe more and some less medication. I also experienced that many family member suffer a lot if they have a relative who rejects treatment. This truely can destroy families and in general relationships.

To add one example. I know a girl who is always acute suicidal during her psychosis. One time she almost killed herself but her therapist could intervene. I talked to her. She says she loves life and she absolutely does not want to die or kill herself but during her psychosis she thinks she is obliged to kill herself....and that is why she is suicidal then. I have heard from another similar example a woman tried self-immolating during her psychosis and now has to live with the consequences...

 

[noaccount]

I don't really believe your argument that countless of black people are called psychotic for those thoughts you mentioned.

Jesus FUCKING Christ the Caucasity.

How Schizophrenia Became a Black Disease: An Interview With Jonathan Metzl

In the late-1960s, large numbers of African Americans were diagnosed with schizophrenia after they were arrested for participating in the civil rights movement. Psychiatrist and cultural historian Jonathan Metzl has written a fascinating and disturbing book explaining how that happened.

www.psychologytoday.com

<em>The Protest Psychosis</em>

Dr. Metzl documents the alleged finding of an increased incidence of schizophrenia in black men, but he argues that the link was fabricated during the 60s and early 70s to undermine the Civil Rights Movement. The event is at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor.

www.c-span.org

Race, quality of care, and antipsychotic prescribing practices in psychiatric emergency services - PubMed

The results highlight the importance of efforts to engage African Americans in the treatment process and the need for clinical skills and training to help bridge cultural distances.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Entire organizations like Surviving Race , LETS , and Inclusive Therapy have had to form to combat the widespread racial violence of the psy-professions.

The institutions you cite to faithfully(!), also claim that suicidality is proof of delusion/disorder, and to "help" us they are justified in detaining and caging us.

This is a site that explicitly rejects that model.

To ask "How do we help suicidal people?" is a question, in our society, that often silences the many suicidal people yelling, "Wait, we don't WANT this help!"
So the first step of a pro-choice group, in posing this question, is to first ask, "Is this person CONSENTING to the help that is being offered?"
And where their consent stops, the attempts-at-intervention stop.

 

[noname223]

Jesus FUCKING Christ the Caucasity.

How Schizophrenia Became a Black Disease: An Interview With Jonathan Metzl

In the late-1960s, large numbers of African Americans were diagnosed with schizophrenia after they were arrested for participating in the civil rights movement. Psychiatrist and cultural historian Jonathan Metzl has written a fascinating and disturbing book explaining how that happened.

www.psychologytoday.com

<em>The Protest Psychosis</em>

Dr. Metzl documents the alleged finding of an increased incidence of schizophrenia in black men, but he argues that the link was fabricated during the 60s and early 70s to undermine the Civil Rights Movement. The event is at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor.

www.c-span.org

Race, quality of care, and antipsychotic prescribing practices in psychiatric emergency services - PubMed

The results highlight the importance of efforts to engage African Americans in the treatment process and the need for clinical skills and training to help bridge cultural distances.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Entire organizations like Surviving Race , LETS , and Inclusive Therapy have had to form to combat the widespread racial violence of the psy-professions.

The institutions you cite to faithfully(!), also claim that suicidality is proof of delusion/disorder, and to "help" us they are justified in detaining and caging us.

This is a site that explicitly rejects that model.

To ask "How do we help suicidal people?" is a question, in our society, that often silences the many suicidal people yelling, "Wait, we don't WANT this help!"
So the first step of a pro-choice group, in posing this question, is to first ask, "Is this person CONSENTING to the help that is being offered?"
And where their consent stops, the attempts-at-intervention stop.

Most of your proofs describe the situation in the 60s and early 70s. However you might be right that there is a discrimination of black people concerning schizophrenia medication.

What do you think about the girl that I know? During her psychosis she thinks she has to ctb. But when she is out of this mental state she says she wants to live and she would never commit suicide. She says she loves life.
Do you think her therapist did wrong to stop her? Would it have been better in your opinion if she killed herself? Because if I follow your line of argumentation it means you would have preferred that.

I also don't like many parts of psychiatry. I don't like they lock suicidal people up. However in my opinion you need to differentiate between people who can make a judgement and people who are just in this moment insane/psychotic. I think the psychiatry does not make a good job at that. Because they treat every person who wants to ctb as insane.
However this does not mean the oppsosite is true. There are some people who are in this moment not fully sane. I have read about a bipolar guy who heard voices that he has to kill himself. He did it and jumped from the Golden Gate Bridge. He survived and said without these voices he would not have done it. Someone who gets orders from his voices and has to follow them can't make a rational decision.

And now a more abstract example. If someone thinks aliens are investigating him and he needs to ctb because of that. Is it really good to let him do that? The person is clearly not fully sane.

Do you want to say we have no right to assess whether someone is sane or not? I could partly agree that this is often abused by psychiatrist and psychiatry. Though this does not mean for me that the whole concept of psychiatry is stupid.

Or do you want to say that there is no truth? There is always another perspective and truth is only siubjective. I personally don't believe that. I think there is objective truth but it is hard to find it. And if someone tells me he is Jesus Christ and has the message for all people that he has now the right to rule over this world. I can clearly say sorry this is not true.

 

[noaccount]

I have no desire to be what you, or the law, calls "SANE."

@Persephone ❦ @RainAndSadness The anti-choice rhetoric is getting really out of hand here.

 

[noname223]

@Persephone ❦ @RainAndSadness The anti-choice rhetoric is getting really out of hand here.

Sorry this forum has too much problems even without that. We should not fight for the rights that minors should have the right to ctb, neither should we fight for the right to ctb for people who think aliens are assaulting them and this is their reason to ctb.

And by the way it is cheap to call for mods in order not to answer my question. In my opinion we can close this thread. The argument is too heated I can see that. I have not intervened in anyone's decision and this was never my intention because I know the rules. I simply don't find it not a good idea morally or strategically to fight for this. The media coverage is bad enough.

 

[noaccount]

My bodily autonomy matters more than media spectacle.