Discussion having children is like using drugs

[progeria]

Why do people have children? At the birth of a child, a person feels a surge of pleasant hormones. A person feels the fulfillment of a life goal, but this is all so realistic. It's good if this continues until the child comes of age, but often parents give birth to children just like that, without any purpose, because their hormones tell them to do it.I think that this is very selfish and in our time there is no good reason to have offspring and bring another life into this world just to satisfy your gut.

 

[Rayzieka]

It's very selfish and I can't see why anyone who isn't prepared to take care of another person for the next 18+ years thinks it's justified.
If you have the resources, or maybe lack of resources to avoid pregnancy then I can understand. If a major goal in your life has always been to have children, then I can understand. But most people will have children when they aren't prepared or even want them because of religion or lack of preparation, or they just go through with it because it's what they see everyone else doing.

 

[progeria]

It is strange that with regard to such things as drugs or suicide, the state takes care that a person does not commit a rash act, but with regard to children you have the right to do anything.

 

[Seiko]

I can't imagine possibly living in this world and wishing to add more life.

 

[progeria]

I can't imagine possibly living in this world and wishing to add more life.

I think in most cases when having offspring people do not think critically

 

[Flippy]

I suppose a lot of people would say that we all have the right to procreate. That it's a basic biological imperative. Well I neither agree or disagree. However, when some people have kids, they do so to feel the unconditional trust and affection but can't see their kids as anything more than intricate and sophisticated dolls.

Others see them as social experiments and bring them up essentially to exist in an environment that doesn't exist. This can lead to all sorts of problems when kids turn into odd and entirely unconventional adults.

My sister had a friend whose parents were super religious and very old fashioned. They were very odd, they dressed like it was still the 1940's and their kids were very unusual, dressed very like old aged pensioners and were bullied and picked on mercilessly. They made our messed up family look almost normal by comparison.

Some years later when I was working in a store, I was serving a young woman who looked very chavish/redneck like. She was polite, friendly and I couldn't understand why she seemed so over familiar and friendly towards me.

She looked like the type that spent a lot of time over indulging in substances and alcohol and this was confirmed by her gleefully telling me about her engaging in said activities. I was totally puzzled until I had to ask for her name and address to enter into the store computer system. And she said "'Flippy' you know who I am! I'm 'Myra' [not her real name of course!]". I was totally shocked as she was unrecognisable and she was really interested trying to persuade me to "go for a crazy night out".

It was like she was desperate to show me she had gone from a timid odd girl to a crazy cool party girl.

She had rejected her super straight laced upbringing for arguably a far more dangerous lifestyle. I have never seen her since and I have often wondered if she ended up ok. It was like she had destroyed who her parents had brought her up to be by creating a new person she perceived as being more acceptable. Like she had become the polar opposite.

Kids aren't toys, pets, dolls or (as someone said once on these forums) butlers. They are real people, they have personhood from birth. It is not something they earn by completing a series of your arbitrary trials and challenges. If you can understand this then you will probably do ok raising kids. If you cant and everything I stated seems ridiculous (like it did to my mother and Myra's) then you should probably not raise kids.

Just my thoughts. :-)

 

[Versailles]

Having children is a spending of time and money, but it gives me a little laughter the arguments of the Petsteras that are against antinatalism, most are boomers defending the "moral principles" or saying that this could affect the world economy.

 

[Freelyffe88]

I've found that a lot of people have this inherent desire to have kids, which is so weird to me, because I've never had it. Combined the fact that I don't think bringing a kid into this world is doing them any favors. If i wouldn't want to be brought into this world again, why would I subject someone else to it?

 

[Flippy]

I've found that a lot of people have this inherent desire to have kids, which is so weird to me, because I've never had it. Combined the fact that I don't think bringing a kid into this world is doing them any favors. If i wouldn't want to be brought into this world again, why would I subject someone else to it?

Yeah, I think if suddenly a huge pop-up appeared in front of me right now saying "Your free trial of LIFE AS A HUMAN has expired. Your progress has been erased! Click here to purchase and start over... " I would be like "Nah, I'm good". It would be quite a quite a relief though!

 

[FuneralCry]

I am never having children. I do not want to bring anyone into a world where there is unlimited potential for suffering. I wish I was never born honestly, all of my problems are caused by the fact that I exist in the first place. It is selfish, but as you said people have this desire to do it. Having a right to die would make up for the fact that we were brought into this world without choice.

 

[Alwaysbadtime]

No kids. Can't afford it. If one is doing well financially why wouldn't they want to create someone that looks like them who will in theory love them and think of them as a God. Kids are only kids for so long...life is mostly adulthood which can be hell. I hope assholes who have fucked me over and who have kids have ones who need the shit out of them.

 

[greyhound]

I mean I get where you're coming from. But there is a danger in that this forum is just an echo chamber for the depressed. I would venture to guess that 95% of people that are born are not suicidal and live reasonably content lives. Yes life is painful but for the vast majority the deal is worth it getting to love and be loved and share experiences. The voices on here are only those of the 5% who unfortunately had the most terrible experiences. Odds are if we had kids they probably would be ok and would have a reasonable life.

 

[motel rooms]

Odds are if we had kids they probably would be ok and would have a reasonable life.

Kids of suicidal people would probably have a reasonable life?

 

[Ch92921]

Why we have children? Because its in our instinct to procreate. Its in our genes

 

[greyhound]

Kids of suicidal people would probably have a reasonable life?

Why not I mean everyone here has suffered and probably has more empathy for suffering than the average person. I doubt any of us would abuse or beat our child. Ok maybe somebody CTBs and the kid ends up with a relative or something. But at the end of the day children are pretty resilient plenty of people have crazy parents and grow up just fine.

 

[Flippy]

"if you want to know what the future looks like, imagine a boot stamping on a human face, forever."

Once the genie is out of the bottle (stop snickering at the back there!) You can't put it back in. You may have the most noble of intent when you bring a kid into this world or believe you do. I know I'm far too messed up to not mess my kids up if I had any. I wouldn't set out to do it and my fear and eagerness to avoid creating a disaster would probably be precisely what causes them to be messed up.

I'm sure my mother believed at first she was going to be a shining example and put her own abusive parents to shame, but she fell into the same patterns of behaviour as easily as slipping on an old comfy shoe.

I don't think it's the "echo chamber" effect. I just think that some people (and I realise I may just be part of a subset of people here) don't want to take the risk that despite starting with the best of intentions the trauma from their childhood might be planted anew in a innocent person.

I often wonder when did the shit and misery start? My mother's generation? Her parents generation? Or is it a repeating pattern of shit back to the stone age? Then I realized, it's not the right question. The right question is, "how to break the cycle?" And in my view, and I imagine a lot of other people's, the solution is to not have kids.

 

[motel rooms]

Why not I mean everyone here has suffered and probably has more empathy for suffering than the average person. I doubt any of us would abuse or beat our child. Ok maybe somebody CTBs and the kid ends up with a relative or something. But at the end of the day children are pretty resilient plenty of people have crazy parents and grow up just fine.

You're just being contrarian because you're tired of this grim echo chamber... Nobody with "crazy" parents escapes their situation unscathed. A large number of us would or will or have already fucked up our poor children; it's a known fact that trauma is routinely passed down from parent to child...
You're probably familiar with this poem:

This Be The Verse​

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.

-- Philip Larkin

 

[Alwaysbadtime]

Why we have children? Because its in our instinct to procreate. Its in our genes

Dogs in heat have the instinct to mate. People are just horny and have inflated egos.

It is strange that with regard to things as drugs or suicide, the state takes care that a person does not commit a rash act, but with regard to children you have the right to do anything.

Except abort in many countries as well as Texas

 

[Flippy]

You're just being contrarian because you're tired of this grim echo chamber... Nobody with "crazy" parents escapes their situation unscathed. A large number of us would or will or have already fucked up our poor children; it's a known fact that trauma is routinely passed down from parent to child...
You're probably familiar with this poem:

This Be The Verse​

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.

-- Philip Larkin

Ah! Bravo! I was keeping that one up my sleeve! And indeed they do :-) I was just considering this very poem and I think my take on it is this: Every parent fucks up their kids, it's just a question of do you fuck them up in a way that is socially acceptable. In other words to have huge egos, never a moment of self awareness or doubt. That is the right way to fuck up your kids I suppose. Or you can fuck them up to be the opposite, too meek and self aware and lacking in confidence, afraid. There to be trodden on by the ones that were fucked up the right way.

 

[Alwaysbadtime]

Why not I mean everyone here has suffered and probably has more empathy for suffering than the average person. I doubt any of us would abuse or beat our child. Ok maybe somebody CTBs and the kid ends up with a relative or something. But at the end of the day children are pretty resilient plenty of people have crazy parents and grow up just fine.

Ummmm did you grow up just fine? You're on a suicide website. You think a kid under 18 who has a parent who kills themself is not going to question and be angry? You assume there's a maternal/paternal relative to swoop in and raise kid...foster care can be incredibly abusive....crazy people...or people who can not afford kids...who are unhappy have 0 business procreating. JUST SAY NO

I mean I get where you're coming from. But there is a danger in that this forum is just an echo chamber for the depressed. I would venture to guess that 95% of people that are born are not suicidal and live reasonably content lives. Yes life is painful but for the vast majority the deal is worth it getting to love and be loved and share experiences. The voices on here are only thoseof the 5% who unfortunately had the most terrible experiences. Odds are if we had kids they probably would be ok and would have a reasonable life.

Your percentages of happy people vs unhappy are a skewed and incorrect. Google things like poverty, unemployment rates, crime, war, genocide, percentage of people on anti-depressants, autism, high housing costs, cancer, divorce, rape, incest, lack of healthcare, homeless. If you see this forum as an 'echo chamber' just for the 'depressed' maybe you should find another hobby preferably not creating life. Adopt if you're so healthy. It's like saying only 5 percent of the WORLD suffers...baseless comment. Google Venezuala, Columbia, Palestine, Yemen, Lebanon, Iraq etc etc...Not everyone on SS is depressed. There are many many reasons to want to exit existence. I really think you're comment is scary. You sound like you're half-way there to having a kid for kicks...for the love and experiences you mention. Do you live in a gated community? Societal problems do not only affect 5 percent of the global fucking population...or even the US population. No where is that safe.

 

[greyhound]

Ummmm did you grow up just fine? You're on a suicide website. You think a kid under 18 who has a parent who kills themself is not going to question and be angry? You assume there's a maternal/paternal relative to swoop in and raise kid...foster care can be incredibly abusive....crazy people...or people who can not afford kids...who are unhappy have 0 business procreating. JUST SAY NO

Your percentages of happy people vs unhappy are a skewed and incorrect. Google things like poverty, unemployment rates, crime, war, genocide, percentage of people on anti-depressants, autism, high housing costs, cancer, divorce, rape, incest, lack of healthcare, homeless. If you see this forum as an 'echo chamber' just for the 'depressed' maybe you should find another hobby preferably not creating life. Adopt if you're so healthy. It's like saying only 5 percent of the WORLD suffers...baseless comment. Google Venezuala, Columbia, Palestine, Yemen, Lebanon, Iraq etc etc...Not everyone on SS is depressed. There are many many reasons to want to exit existence. I really think you're comment is scary. You sound like you're half-way there to having a kid for kicks...for the love and experiences you mention. Do you live in a gated community? Societal problems do not only affect 5 percent of the global fucking population...or even the US population. No where is that safe.

I'm chronically ill and my life has been hell for more than a couple of decades. I've told my mom before that I wish she didn't have me, life has been so painful (maybe a bit cruel to say). I do think parents should maybe be vetted by the government or something. If you need a license to drive why is procreation totally free. I was a mistake my parents made in college when they were completely poor and yet they decided to keep me. But I can't really fault them for my issues, I had a happy middle class childhood that was really the best part of my life (before I fell sick).

No I'm not planning on having kids I have never wanted them (maybe intuitively knew I was going to get sick or something). Definitely don't have the energy to raise them now and planning on CTB very shortly anyway.

But your post just basically confirms my point. Your writing is absolutely dripping with trauma and misery I'm sorry to say. It basically screams off the page. I never said that only 5% suffer, everyone suffers, but suicide only accounts for 1% of the deaths worldwide. I just feel like for all the good this forum does for people in need of info and support, it also is just this dark pit that some get sucked into.

 

[demuic]

I'm chronically ill and my life has been hell for more than a couple of decades. I've told my mom before that I wish she didn't have me, life has been so painful (maybe a bit cruel to say). I do think parents should maybe be vetted by the government or something. If you need a license to drive why is procreation totally free. I was a mistake my parents made in college when they were completely poor and yet they decided to keep me. But I can't really fault them for my issues, I had a happy middle class childhood that was really the best part of my life (before I fell sick).

No I'm not planning on having kids I have never wanted them (maybe intuitively knew I was going to get sick or something). Definitely don't have the energy to raise them now and planning on CTB very shortly anyway.

But your post just basically confirms my point. Your writing is absolutely dripping with trauma and misery I'm sorry to say. It basically screams off the page. I never said that only 5% suffer, everyone suffers, but suicide only accounts for 1% of the deaths worldwide. I just feel like for all the good this forum does for people in need of info and support, it also is just this dark pit that some get sucked into.

Suicide is highly stimgimatized and also biologically programmed against. Just because they didnt commit suicide doesn't mean they aren't in severe pain they would escape if they had the means. People aren't allowed to express their pain in real life because that causes them to be deemed toxic, insane, etc.

Its no dark pit for me, it's the reality that no one actually wants to talk about because they want to pretend everything is sunshine and rainbows. I've always felt the way I have, SS is just the only place I've found with likeminded people who can share their true thoughts without BS and I think many feel the same.

 

[greyhound]

Suicide is highly stimgimatized and also biologically programmed against. Just because they didnt commit suicide doesn't mean they aren't in severe pain they would escape if they had the means. People aren't allowed to express their pain in real life because that causes them to be deemed toxic, insane, etc.

Its no dark pit for me, it's the reality that no one actually wants to talk about because they want to pretend everything is sunshine and rainbows. I've always felt the way I have, SS is just the only place I've found with likeminded people who can share their true thoughts without BS and I think many feel the same.

Yes I agree that if it was less stigmatized and more was known about consciousness then more would certainly commit suicide. But I think the numbers would still be relatively low. I think evolution has honed the tradeoff between pain and pleasure pretty well. Humanity has persisted after all up until this point through some fairly difficult conditions in the past.

But it's known that depressed people often cannot see outside of their distorted perspective. I watched an interview with Hugh Jackman randomly a while back and in it he talked a bit about suicide. They asked him if he thought hell existed and he said maybe suicidal people are in hell. I think that's pretty perceptive. I do think a certain percentage of people are in hell here, and they tend to congregate on this site. But he also said he couldn't even imagine wanting to commit suicide. To me that was a bit shocking as I've been suicidal for so long. To hear someone say they couldn't even imagine thinking it. But I think it's true, in this life some people are in heaven, some in hell, and many somewhere in between.

 

[motel rooms]

I do think a certain percentage of people are in hell here, and they tend to congregate on this site.

Is it their fault that they're in hell? Where else are they supposed to congregate? If they bring you down, ignore them & go to your happy place

 

[whywere]

My "parents" NEVER wanted me and social norms of the time would have made them look horrible if they put me up for adoption so instead I got 18 years of being called "the mistake" to my face, in public, everywhere. When I got kicked out at 18 I told myself never ever any kids and I am now 65 and zero kids. Too much over population to begin with and having a kid to "keep up" with others?? No thank you. Walter

 

[Alwaysbadtime]

I'm chronically ill and my life has been hell for more than a couple of decades. I've told my mom before that I wish she didn't have me, life has been so painful (maybe a bit cruel to say). I do think parents should maybe be vetted by the government or something. If you need a license to drive why is procreation totally free. I was a mistake my parents made in college when they were completely poor and yet they decided to keep me. But I can't really fault them for my issues, I had a happy middle class childhood that was really the best part of my life (before I fell sick).

No I'm not planning on having kids I have never wanted them (maybe intuitively knew I was going to get sick or something). Definitely don't have the energy to raise them now and planning on CTB very shortly anyway.

But your post just basically confirms my point. Your writing is absolutely dripping with trauma and misery I'm sorry to say. It basically screams off the page. I never said that only 5% suffer, everyone suffers, but suicide only accounts for 1% of the deaths worldwide. I just feel like for all the good this forum does for people in need of info and support, it also is just this dark pit that some get sucked into.

I don't understand if this is a critisism nor do I give a fuck that my writing is 'dripping with trauma and misery'. 'Screams off a page'....ummm huh...okay good...You said something like 95% of everyone is doing pretty good. It says suicide is 1.7% and 17th leading cause of death for 2019. I really doubt that all suicides are registered especially those in fucked up poor countries. It's higher now due to Covid. Numbers don't matter to me AT ALL. Your point seems to be that this is a 'dark pit some get sucked into' and suicides are rare...Okay sure. And? So my hate and terror confirms the point that I am using SS as a public shitter? It's better than Reddit and I sorta feel less alone and like I can express myself on it...so no I don't see it as a dark hole. A dark hole is staring out my window at a tree that never holds a bird...staring into space ignoring everything on TV and hearing every trigger, but not wanting to lie in bed and do and look at nothing. Of course I have trauma and misery. Jezzus...

I feel empathy that you are chronically ill and feel like you have been in hell for more than a couple decades. Take care.

 

[Flippy]

My "parents" NEVER wanted me and social norms of the time would have made them look horrible if they put me up for adoption so instead I got 18 years of being called "the mistake" to my face, in public, everywhere. When I got kicked out at 18 I told myself never ever any kids and I am now 65 and zero kids. Too much over population to begin with and having a kid to "keep up" with others?? No thank you. Walter

I've read a fair few of your posts and you certainly seem to have had more than your fair share of harsh experiences :-( It must have been horrible to be told that from the very people who should have built you up and nurtured you!

Leaving home should have been a positive right of passage! Not something you are forced to do when you hit an arbitrary age limit. It's exactly the sort of shit my mother put me through. Yet so many people are horrified when they find out I haven't spoken to her in over 16 years.

 

[greyhound]

Is it their fault that they're in hell? Where else are they supposed to congregate? If they bring you down, ignore them & go to your happy place

I obviously come here because I can relate to being in hell. Misery loves company. But when these threads start like all of humanity should be cancelled and 10 suicidal people start cheering I'm just like hold up a minute.

 

[motel rooms]

But when these threads start like all of humanity should be cancelled and 10 suicidal people start cheering I'm just like hold up a minute.

I don't think humanity is in serious danger because the SS crowd is into antinatalism

 

[Versailles]

I don't think humanity is in serious danger because the SS crowd is into antinatalism

Well, we are not the only anti-natalists here, more and more new generations are adopting this way of thinking