Discussion Has there ever actually been “free speech”?

[Anxieyote]

I was listening to a podcast recently, and one of the guests said "Free speech has never actually been a thing. There will always be things you're not allowed to say. This will never change as long as humanity exists because people are scared of each other, and they're scared of unwanted ideas spreading."

Do you think this is true? I have always felt that my "free speech" has been limited quite a bit. And I'm not just talking about racial slurs or saying the f-word around children, but there are certain phrases that I could speak into the world that would not only get me banned from these forums, but possibly arrested, thrown in jail, or even killed.

I think there is some legitimacy to the idea that as long as humans exist, you're going to have to craft your words and sentences with delicate brushstrokes to avoid the wrath of the mob.

A lot of our social customs like saying "thank you" and greeting each other with "hello" have been ingrained in us from a young age, so we have general guidelines on how to talk and speak to people. But deviate from these guidelines enough, and people will not want to interact with you—or worse, silence you altogether.

 

[Julgran]

When God said "Let there by light", no one said "No, there will not!", so here we are. That's free speech on steroids

To your point, there will always be people or institutions that we are not allowed to criticize, because they deem themselves to be more important than the normal folks.

 

[Bleak]

You're "allowed" to say anything, but words have power and therefore have consequences. You learn as a child on the playground that if you just say whatever insults come into your mind, you may hurt people's feelings, or maybe even get a punch in the face. I'm all for legitimate protection of "free speech" against abuses of power, but wanting to merely violate basic decency, or to spout crazy accusations without consequences, is not really what free speech means.

 

[busternaught]

A lot of our social customs like saying "thank you" and greeting each other with "hello" have been ingrained in us from a young age, so we have general guidelines on how to talk and speak to people. But deviate from these guidelines enough, and people will not want to interact with you—or worse, silence you altogether.

People not wanting to interact with you because you act a certain way is not an infringement on your free speech. Getting banned from privately owned forums is also not an infringement on free speech. OTHER people have their individual freedom to kick you out of their life or kick you out of their forum if they don't want you to be a part of it.

I think the biggest obstacle to complete freedom speech in a society is the fact that plotting to commit crimes would have to be acceptable by law. Making false bomb threats, calling emergency services and lying to them, etc, etc. It would be a complete legal mess, and it would be impossible to prevent any crimes before they happen. It might even ruin the entire legal system, as you cannot make people swear an oath to tell the truth, since that is a violation of freedom of speech.

The truth is that absolute freedom does not and will never exist. This is all related to social contract theory, the fact that in order to get freedom, you have to give up some freedom to people who can protect your rights. I guess the only way to get complete freedom of speech is to move to a secluded area and only ever talk to yourself

Edit: I feel like this sounds a lot meaner than I meant to. "You" as in "one", anyone. Not directed at at you OP

 

[D&D]

What is meant by 'free speech' has and continues to change through times, cultures and societies. Like everything else, the meaning humans assign to it changes as their societies and culture changes. Some of the iconic works of literature may not be published at all or might be severely mutilated by censorship today, yet they were celebrated in their times. Every human construct is impermanent and changeable.

 

[GenesAndEnvironment]

Semantics and definitions aside, free speech comes from a population being strong and intelligent enough to engage (or one-way ignore), rather than ban/kill/shun.

 

[DetachedDreamer97]

I feel like that is a growing concern based on observations and experiences alone.

There once was free speech, even on reddit, or any place, but since sites started letting certain people into the company or positions of power, things start going totalitarian real quick.

 

[CowsAreCool]

Free speech is a legal principal and a societal principle. The legal principle exists. You can go into public or online and *legally* say extremely unpopular and abhorrent things. You have the legal right to say what you want. The legal principle still stands strong, and there's only few exemptions.

As a societal principle, it's dying. People don't respect one another's right to voice unpopular opinions. Rather than challenging unpopular opinions with arguments and debate, more and more people think it is more acceptable to simply censor. I see rhetoric all the time about how it's necessary to "deplatform" offensive speech. Cancel culture is essentially resorting to bullying to combat opposing viewpoints.

Deplatforming, cancelling, and censoring (by social media orgs) doesn't violate the legal principle of "free speech". But in my opinion, it demonstrates a society that's moving away from the principle of "free speech".

If you don't believe you can beat your opponent in debate, your only other move is to shut them up. There's nothing more cowardly and pathetic than arguing that "words are violence" and parading around when an ideological opponent is "banned" or censored. And it's commonplace, on both sides.

We need more free speech. Legally and in principle. And they need to teach in school what the founding fathers envisioned when they included speech in the first amendment. Why it matters, and is essential to a free and fair society.

 

[deathbylife]

Deplatforming, cancelling, and censoring (by social media orgs) doesn't violate the legal principle of "free speech". But in my opinion, it demonstrates a society that's moving away from the principle of "free speech"

If it's harmful and untrue, it should be banned

 

[CowsAreCool]

If it's harmful and untrue, it should be banned

Or you could be an adult, and explain why something is "harmful and untrue" in a open debate.

If you're right, and you have logic on your side, you'll prove your point.

The fact you're justifying censorship probably means you are wrong. And you know you're wrong. On whatever issue you're thinking of.

Nobody censors to support truth. It's never happened in history. And words alone aren't harmful. Not to anyone with a spine.

 

[deathbylife]

Or you could be an adult, and explain why something is "harmful and untrue" in a open debate.

If you're right, and you have logic on your side, you'll prove your point.

The fact you're justifying censorship probably means you are wrong. And you know you're wrong. On whatever issue you're thinking of.

Nobody censors to support truth. It's never happened in history. And words alone aren't harmful. Not to anyone with a spine.

Censoring false news about "stolen elections", holocaust denial, etc is necessary and if you think I'm wrong you're in need of help. That's all I have to say to someone like you.

Or you could be an adult, and explain why something is "harmful and untrue" in a open debate.

If you're right, and you have logic on your side, you'll prove your point.

The fact you're justifying censorship probably means you are wrong. And you know you're wrong. On whatever issue you're thinking of.

Nobody censors to support truth. It's never happened in history. And words alone aren't harmful. Not to anyone with a spine.

Words are definitely harmful, and if you call ppl who get hurt by words "spineless" then you don't belong here.

Nobody censors to support truth. It's never happened in history. And words alone aren't harmful. Not to anyone with a spine.

You need to leave this site.

 

[Myforevercharlie]

Or you could be an adult, and explain why something is "harmful and untrue" in a open debate.

If you're right, and you have logic on your side, you'll prove your point.

The fact you're justifying censorship probably means you are wrong. And you know you're wrong. On whatever issue you're thinking of.

Nobody censors to support truth. It's never happened in history. And words alone aren't harmful. Not to anyone with a spine.

Words can be more harmful then a slap in the face . That has nothing to do with if you got a spine.
What do you think causes a lot of mental illness?

 

[deathbylife]

Words can be more harmful then a slap in the face . That has nothing to do with if you got a spine.
What do you think causes a lot of mental illness?

Are you implying that "personal character weakness/ineffectiveness" causes mental illness?

There is some biological history and a lot of trauma history.
That's what I think causes mental illness. Not "character weakness". That's just blaming the victim.

 

[Myforevercharlie]

Are you implying that "personal character weakness/ineffectiveness" causes mental illness?

There is some biological history and a lot of trauma history.
That's what I think causes mental illness. Not "character weakness". That's just blaming the victim.

I am saying words can cause trauma as well as a physical experience.

 

[DetachedDreamer97]

Words can be more harmful then a slap in the face . That has nothing to do with if you got a spine.
What do you think causes a lot of mental illness?

Frankly, it's a double edged sword... But... I think people can decide how to feel about words. I hate the N-word, which is what I've been called back in high school, and sometimes on the street. And I'm exposed to that a lot, especially on the incel forum, but... as much as I hate it, I had to grow thicker skin. As of now, I tolerate it, so long as it's not used as a direct attack... though even then, I'll just tell you to go fuck yourself, especially after the changes I've been through over the years.

People need to adapt, and contrary to the popular belief, censorship is going to do more harm than good. You can censor all you want, but soon enough, the truth or ugly reality is gonna come crashing down, and if you're not prepared, you're going to have a very hard time.

The reason why we have people here in the first place nowadays is due to being sheltered from the cold reality that comes with life. And I know that from experience.

Also... I'm convinced that mental illness is caused by nihilism.

Are you implying that "personal character weakness/ineffectiveness" causes mental illness?

There is some biological history and a lot of trauma history.
That's what I think causes mental illness. Not "character weakness". That's just blaming the victim.

Arguably, yes... and while it may not apply to women, for men... it's up to them on how to deal with trauma. Not to say I hate them, but... sometimes the most important lessons are learned the hard way. Trauma builds character.

 

[CowsAreCool]

Censoring false news about "stolen elections", holocaust denial, etc is necessary and if you think I'm wrong you're in need of help. That's all I have to say to someone like you.

Words are definitely harmful, and if you call ppl who get hurt by words "spineless" then you don't belong here.

You need to leave this site.

Words can be hurtful, but they aren't violence, and you have no right to shut people up. People have a right to speak. You combat harmful words through example and debate. Not censorship. Censorship is morally wrong.

It's morally wrong even when the speech includes lies about elections. Or includes false information.

You combat lies with truth and false info with true info. If you don't have truth on your side, all you have is censorship. Censorship is never used by the good guy in history, and you can't give me an example to the contrary.

Frankly, it's a double edged sword... But... I think people can decide how to feel about words. I hate the N-word, which is what I've been called back in high school, and sometimes on the street. And I'm exposed to that a lot, especially on the incel forum, but... as much as I hate it, I had to grow thicker skin. As of now, I tolerate it, so long as it's not used as a direct attack... though even then, I'll just tell you to go fuck yourself, especially after the changes I've been through over the years.

People need to adapt, and contrary to the popular belief, censorship is going to do more harm than good. You can censor all you want, but soon enough, the truth or ugly reality is gonna come crashing down, and if you're not prepared, you're going to have a very hard time.

The reason why we have people here in the first place nowadays is due to being sheltered from the cold reality that comes with life. And I know that from experience.

Also... I'm convinced that mental illness is caused by nihilism.

Arguably, yes... and while it may not apply to women, for men... it's up to them on how to deal with trauma. Not to say I hate them, but... sometimes the most important lessons are learned the hard way. Trauma builds character.

I'm really sorry people called you that. People can be terrible.

I agree that a lot of mental illness is caused by nihilism. Also hedonism. People without real purpose often find they have no reason to live. Hence depression and suicidal tendencies. And in a world where fewer and fewer people report being religious, many people have nowhere to turn when they hit tough times. Not saying that any specific religion is the "correct" choice, but nihilism is certainly the wrong one.

I also agree trauma builds character, but that's only provided that people survive the trauma. Some mentally ill people are never able to get better. If (when) things get harder, not everyone will be able to adapt. And you can see that in culture today. If we ever have another serious depression or war, there's a significant portion of the population, especially Gen Z, that will have a lot of trouble adapting. I know because I'm in Gen Z, and we're hopeless. Over half of us are on antidepressants, and things aren't even bad yet.

 

[Winterreise]

Off course words can hurt. You do expect me to take you seriously? If you tell how interlectually unimpressive I am. Wasnt I suppose to believe it? Don't tell me it's just a sound that is coming out of your mouth.
And even if you video taped the whole thing to post it online, you wanted the whole world to believe it.

 

[Disappointered]

Imagine a group of people being grossly over-represented in a bunch of significant areas including academia, publishing and pretty much all media (because dry-cleaning, nothing to see here) and correspondingly having a ridiculous advantage in controlling people's perceptions of which competing opinions are more accurate or justified, nevertheless imposing increasingly extreme responses to speech that they don't like.

Censorship of politicized opinions is a tell. It means those who are censored are on to something. Jailing people for doing historical research that doesn't shore up the side you exploit for your interests is beyond repair deplorable and dispels any doubts I might have had about said researchers' positions.

 

[Csmith8827]

Words can be hurtful, but they aren't violence, and you have no right to shut people up. People have a right to speak. You combat harmful words through example and debate. Not censorship.

Tell that shit to the voices attacking me all day long. Music is a weapon of the future.

You combat lies with truth and false info with true info.

100%

Words are definitely harmful, and if you call ppl who get hurt by words "spineless" then you don't belong here.

Words can hurt but you have to push past them and fight/combat them with truth. I have voices fucking with me all day long but I push past the shit and see them for the demons they truly are.

 

[deathbylife]

"Words can hurt but you have to push past them and fight/combat them with truth. I have voices fucking with me all day long but I push past the shit and see them for the demons they truly are."

Good for you. Go somewhere else.

 

[DetachedDreamer97]

"Words can hurt but you have to push past them and fight/combat them with truth. I have voices fucking with me all day long but I push past the shit and see them for the demons they truly are."

Good for you. Go somewhere else.

*sips my tea and puts down cup loudly for dramatic effect* Ahhhhhh
I mean wow... are you guys really that intolerant of someone expressing their point of view?

I honestly agree with his sentiment. People nowadays are quite whiners. I get it; you guys have been through shit and are convinced you're losers. But what are you gonna do about it?

And I think the guy should stay whether you like it or not. Contrary to what you believe, the site needs people like us, otherwise this community might as well be an echo chamber, and more and more people are going to die, especially for something that they could've otherwise easily overcome.

I'm really sorry people called you that. People can be terrible.

Don't be; I'm actually kinda grateful this happened.

I agree that a lot of mental illness is caused by nihilism. Also hedonism. People without real purpose often find they have no reason to live. Hence depression and suicidal tendencies. And in a world where fewer and fewer people report being religious, many people have nowhere to turn when they hit tough times. Not saying that any specific religion is the "correct" choice, but nihilism is certainly the wrong one.

Agreed. In my opinion, there needs to be balance. Yes, religion is an outdated concept that often breeds insanity, as is spirituality. However, I'm convinced that despite all that, I feel that it's necessary to reintegrate the two forces back into our lives, as they serve some purpose, no matter how seemingly small they may be, only this time, we should refrain from getting too absorbed into it.

I also agree trauma builds character, but that's only provided that people survive the trauma. Some mentally ill people are never able to get better. If (when) things get harder, not everyone will be able to adapt. And you can see that in culture today. If we ever have another serious depression or war, there's a significant portion of the population, especially Gen Z, that will have a lot of trouble adapting. I know because I'm in Gen Z, and we're hopeless. Over half of us are on antidepressants, and things aren't even bad yet.

You're right about that, some aren't exactly equipped with the necessary qualities... or... they've yet to figure out how to use them.

Funny... I'm gonna say something that may trigger some people, and I may get banned, but... I've made some observations about people coming up with their identities... like "nonbinary" and all that. And when I asked some of them the reason they call themselves such, they tell me it's basically them being gender-noncomforming. But here's the thing: back then before the woke ideology became a thing, they were considered tomboys and tomgirls, which they're still who they are. If you don't fit the standards of what a man or a woman is, then it's whatever; you don't need to go and make that your entire identity like people do with horoscopes, that alone doesn't quite make you special. Instead, you should just treat it like a blueprint of what you can become, because that's what "personality" is. Once you learn your strengths and weaknesses and work with it, there isn't a thing in the world that can stop you. I deadass.

 

[CowsAreCool]

Funny... I'm gonna say something that may trigger some people, and I may get banned, but... I've made some observations about people coming up with their identities... like "nonbinary" and all that. And when I asked some of them the reason they call themselves such, they tell me it's basically them being gender-noncomforming. But here's the thing: back then before the woke ideology became a thing, they were considered tomboys and tomgirls, which they're still who they are. If you don't fit the standards of what a man or a woman is, then it's whatever; you don't need to go and make that your entire identity like people do with horoscopes, that alone doesn't quite make you special. Instead, you should just treat it like a blueprint of what you can become, because that's what "personality" is. Once you learn your strengths and weaknesses and work with it, there isn't a thing in the world that can stop you. I deadass.

This is completely true and reasonable. I see no reason you should get banned. And back when people were tomboys and Tom girls, they weren't coerced into damaging and permanent hormone therapies or surgeries. People accepted their sex. The whole discrepancy between sex and gender is manufactured. People are born with what they're born with.

It's partly a strong desire to fit in. Joining transgender or queer communities gives many people a sense of purpose and belonging. I don't necessarily have a problem with it, but people shouldn't be convinced to reject their own anatomy. And any medical treatment should not be legal with minors. People can chop things off when they turn 18.

If people can't find a better purpose in life than fighting for a man's right to be a woman, we are screwed.

 

[Dot]

This is completely true and reasonable. I see no reason you should get banned. And back when people were tomboys and Tom girls, they weren't coerced into damaging and permanent hormone therapies or surgeries. People accepted their sex. The whole discrepancy between sex and gender is manufactured. People are born with what they're born with.

It's partly a strong desire to fit in. Joining transgender or queer communities gives many people a sense of purpose and belonging. I don't necessarily have a problem with it, but people shouldn't be convinced to reject their own anatomy. And any medical treatment should not be legal with minors. People can chop things off when they turn 18.

If people can't find a better purpose in life than fighting for a man's right to be a woman, we are screwed.

Thre = markd diffrnce betwn sme1 wh/ = electvly gendr nn-conformng & sme1 suffrng wth recgnisd Gendr Dysphria whch = cmpltly diffrnt

= importnt nt 2 confl8 th/ 2 -- espclly givn th/ numbr of usrs wh/ r membrs of th/ SaSu cmmunty bcse of ths conditn

 

[DetachedDreamer97]

Thre = markd diffrnce betwn sme1 wh/ = electvly gendr nn-conformng & sme1 suffrng wth recgnisd Gendr Dysphria whch = cmpltly diffrnt

= importnt nt 2 confl8 th/ 2 -- espclly givn th/ numbr of usrs wh/ r membrs of th/ SaSu cmmunty bcse of ths conditn

You're not wrong. I won't dismiss gender dysphoria; it is a legitimate thing. And perhaps I'm in no position to make claims on it, as it is not something I've experienced. However I am gender non-conforming and have had moments where I was called a girl for it, and I might've gone down the rabbit hole had this been during the years I've been in high-school. Though I do feel that there's always an underlying cause for everything (as a friend once told me when I had a discussion on tragedies and all that). And in such cases, it could be trauma, pressure to fit in, internalized homophobia/misogyny/misandry, auto-gyno/andro-philia or whatever it is.

Yes, transitioning can help some people if it's persistent, but otherwise... it can do some harm, that's why we have detransitioners making videos on YouTube sharing their regrets (look it up if you don't believe me and think I'm spreading misinformation), suing their doctors, or just killing themselves due to the lack of support even from the trans community, regardless of the myrad of issues they'renow dealing with; I watched a video of one confronting their doctor about it and it deeply disturbed me. It happens more often than one would think. The only reason you don't hear or see any critical research on it is due to suppression.

For such individuals, they need a therapist (I know the good ones are hard to find, but at least try), or to have a means of getting to the bottom of their suffering in order to overcome it. I'll testify again: I had my own insecurities, and I hated how I was, and the negative experiences I've faced. But despite the fact I'm so adversed to the bitter truth, I had to accept reality and face my demons. It's kinda like Carl Jung's sentiment. You have the ego, and you have the shadow. You can't reject the shadow, otherwise, it's just gonna eventually take over. It happened with me in an event of a fight I had with my grandfather, and it always left me feeling worse off than before. Instead, you need to just become one with it and learn to utilize it more effectively. That's more or less the only way your life is going to get better.

 

[RainAndSadness]

You're not wrong. I won't dismiss gender dysphoria; it is a legitimate thing. And perhaps I'm in no position to make claims on it, as it is not something I've experienced. However I am gender non-conforming and have had moments where I was called a girl for it, and I might've gone down the rabbit hole had this been during the years I've been in high-school. Though I do feel that there's always an underlying cause for everything (as a friend once told me when I had a discussion on tragedies and all that). And in such cases, it could be trauma, pressure to fit in, internalized homophobia/misogyny/misandry, auto-gyno/andro-philia or whatever it is.

Yes, transitioning can help some people if it's persistent, but otherwise... it can do some harm, that's why we have detransitioners making videos on YouTube sharing their regrets (look it up if you don't believe me and think I'm spreading misinformation), suing their doctors, or just killing themselves due to the lack of support even from the trans community, regardless of the myrad of issues they'renow dealing with; I watched a video of one confronting their doctor about it and it deeply disturbed me. It happens more often than one would think. The only reason you don't hear or see any critical research on it is due to suppression.

For such individuals, they need a therapist (I know the good ones are hard to find, but at least try), or to have a means of getting to the bottom of their suffering in order to overcome it. I'll testify again: I had my own insecurities, and I hated how I was, and the negative experiences I've faced. But despite the fact I'm so adversed to the bitter truth, I had to accept reality and face my demons. It's kinda like Carl Jung's sentiment. You have the ego, and you have the shadow. You can't reject the shadow, otherwise, it's just gonna eventually take over. It happened with me in an event of a fight I had with my grandfather, and it always left me feeling worse off than before. Instead, you need to just become one with it and learn to utilize it more effectively. That's more or less the only way your life is going to get better.

You're still sprinkling invalidating rhetoric into your posts. Transitioning doesn't just help "some people", as you claim, it helps the overhelming majority of people that have been diagnosed with gender dysphoria, we're speaking about approximately 97% of people who are happy with their transition. The transition regret you're speaking about does exist but it's a tiny minority of all people who transition and we should also keep in mind that in states like the US people detransition simply because they can't afford their transition in some cases. I had a girlfriend from New York a long time ago and she had to stop her transition temporarily because she couldn't afford the hormones any longer. And I know plenty of people in the US have issues financing their transition simply because they can't afford it. That's actually quite common. There are also social reasons that make people detransition, if you look at the high rate of sexual harassement, physical violence and verbal abuse trans people have to go through, you'll understand why that also contributes to people detransitioning. But the idea that masses of people stop their transition because they feel uncomfortable in their body is not true.
According to this study, 15% of respondents detransitioned at some point in their life and 85% of those people(!) detransitioned due to external factors, that's pressure from friends, family, coworkers, financial reasons, etc. So you have a study of approximately 17'000 participants of whom 2'200 detransitioned at some point in their life and only 350(!) of those people listed an internal factor, like uncertainty about their gender and confusion, that's 2%. That's a tiny minority and fits exactly into the scientific consensus regarding trans people. So no, you don't hear about detransitioners because there is suppression on dissenting opinion, you don't hear about detransitioners that much because they're simply statistically irrelevant when you talk about the benefits of transitioning.
And you're still spreading lies intentionally despite the interaction we had previously, I already explained to you all of this. You're doing it despite all the scientific conclusions I've sent to you earlier. And sure, you can keep doing it, you're obviously resistent to new information - I'll simply put you in line with facts and logic. Have fun getting debunked in real time.

And just in case you forgot, here is a recap of the studies I've linked to you in a recent private conversation:

This is a scientific paper from the UK with 3398 attendes, which concluded a 0.47% transitioned-related regret rate.
https://epath.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Boof-of-abstracts-EPATH2019.pdf
US study that found 8% detransitioned, of whom 62% did so for societial, financial or family pressure related reasons.
https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf
Sweden, study with 767 trans people found 2% of whom expressed regrets.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...en_1960-2010_Prevalence_Incidence_and_Regrets
Netherlands, study with young trans people, only 1.9% regret.
DEFINE_ME
On average, 97% of trans people are happy with their transition. Only 3% experience some form of regret according to the most recent data.

Study Finds Long-Term Mental Health Benefits of Gender-Affirming Surgery for Transgender Individuals

The American Journal of Psychiatry has published an erratum notice after conducting a statistical analysis that was prompted by letters questioning the methodology of “Reduction in Mental Health Treatment Utilization Among Transgender Individuals After Gender-Affirming Surgeries: A Total...

psychiatry.org

The problem isn't even that you're simply spreading false information. The problem is you're spreading false information that's also harmful. You're creating a narrative in which transitioning isn't the logical and convenient solution to gender dysphoria and that's harmful because you're fear mongering about medically sound treatment. And that's not gonna happen on my watch. And I'm so tired of obvious transphobes claiming that they're supressed. You're not oppressed. You simply have a falsifiably false opinion and that's easy to prove given the scientific research of the last 40 years disagrees with you. Maybe you should arrive in the 21th century.

 

[DetachedDreamer97]

You're still sprinkling invalidating rhetoric into your posts. Transitioning doesn't just help "some people", as you claim, it helps the overhelming majority of people that have been diagnosed with gender dysphoria, we're speaking about approximately 97% of people who are happy with their transition. The transition regret you're speaking about does exist but it's a tiny minority of all people who transition and we should also keep in mind that in states like the US people detransition simply because they can't afford their transition in some cases. I had a girlfriend from New York a long time ago and she had to stop her transition temporarily because she couldn't afford the hormones any longer. And I know plenty of people in the US have issues financing their transition simply because they can't afford it. That's actually quite common. There are also social reasons that make people detransition, if you look at the high rate of sexual harassement, physical violence and verbal abuse trans people have to go through, you'll understand why that also contributes to people detransitioning. But the idea that masses of people stop their transition because they feel uncomfortable in their body is not true.
According to this study, 15% of respondents detransitioned at some point in their life and 85% of those people(!) detransitioned due to external factors, that's pressure from friends, family, coworkers, financial reasons, etc. So you have a study of approximately 17'000 participants of whom 2'200 detransitioned at some point in their life and only 350(!) of those people listed an internal factor, like uncertainty about their gender and confusion, that's 2%. That's a tiny minority and fits exactly into the scientific consensus regarding trans people. So no, you don't hear about detransitioners because there is suppression on dissenting opinion, you don't hear about detransitioners that much because they're simply statistically irrelevant when you talk about the benefits of transitioning.
And you're still spreading lies intentionally despite the interaction we had previously, I already explained to you all of this. You're doing it despite all the scientific conclusions I've sent to you earlier. And sure, you can keep doing it, you're obviously resistent to new information - I'll simply put you in line with facts and logic. Have fun getting debunked in real time.

And just in case you forgot, here is a recap of the studies I've linked to you in a recent private conversation:


The problem isn't even that you're simply spreading false information. The problem is you're spreading false information that's also harmful. You're creating a narrative in which transitioning isn't the logical and convenient solution to gender dysphoria and that's harmful because you're fear mongering about medically sound treatment. And that's not gonna happen on my watch. And I'm so tired of obvious transphobes claiming that they're supressed. You're not oppressed. You simply have a falsifiably false opinion and that's easy to prove given the scientific research of the last 40 years disagrees with you. Maybe you should arrive in the 21th century.

You wouldn't be saying that so confidently if you watched the video; it's the other way around.

What's stopping you from watching a 37 minute video? Don't be scared.

 

[RainAndSadness]

You wouldn't be saying that so confidently if you watched the video; it's the other way around.

What's stopping you from watching a 37 minute video? Don't be scared.

A video about one anedoctal case of a doctor doing something doesn't belong into a conversation about the scientific consensus on transition as a medical practice, even less when my position is substantied only with scientific evidence. I didn't post videos, I didn't post blogs, l didn't do any of that because it's irrelevant when we talk about the big picture of a situation. It doesn't matter what that video describes, I know I can save that time because my response to you was entirely scientific and I debunked your entire premise. My post paints a systemic picture of the situation while your video highlight an individual case of something. Please understand the difference between scientific evidence and anectodal evidence. You're arguing with weak evidence that's not empirical and unverifiable while I'm arguing with strong evidence that's representative of the situation right now. Your video isn't going to change anything about the fact that only 3% of people detransition and not all of them do that because they disagree with the transition, as I pointed out earlier.

 

[DetachedDreamer97]

A video about one anedoctal case of a doctor doing something doesn't belong into a conversation about the scientific consensus on transition as a medical practice, even less when my position is substantied only with scientific evidence. I didn't post videos, I didn't post blogs, l didn't do any of that because it's irrelevant when we talk about the big picture of a situation. It doesn't matter what that video describes, I know I can save that time because my response to you was entirely scientific and I debunked your entire premise. My post paints a systemic picture of the situation while your video highlight an individual case of something. Please understand the difference between scientific evidence and anectodal evidence. You're arguing with weak evidence that's not empirical and unverifiable while I'm arguing with strong evidence that's representative of the situation right now. Your video isn't going to change anything about the fact that only 3% of people detransition and not all of them do that because they disagree with the transition, as I pointed out earlier.

Excuses. I expect you to invest in searching for things that can go wrong rather than selection bias. Even I don't make that mistake when it comes to my projects; that's why I refine it.

 

[RainAndSadness]

Dude. It's a video. Someone is rambling. No clue how you can put that against a study with, for example, 17'000 participants. That's why representative scientific research is so much more important and that's because transphobic talking points don't have that much science. It's always videos, blogs and social media posts about anecdotal nonsense that have absolutely no statistical relevance when you compare it to the bigger picture. And science looks at the bigger picture. That's the beauty of it. That's why I love science. As I said, it seems you're resistent to new information. I'm done here.

 

[DetachedDreamer97]

Dude. It's a video. Someone is rambling.

So, you're dismissing a detransitioner's plight many youtube comments which shares some experience as rambling? Right...

So no, you don't hear about detransitioners because there is suppression on dissenting opinion, you don't hear about detransitioners that much because they're simply statistically irrelevant when you talk about the benefits of transitioning.

*nods*

he problem isn't even that you're simply spreading false information. The problem is you're spreading false information that's also harmful.

So, you're saying self-love is harmful? I feel like you're missing the point once more.

You're creating a narrative in which transitioning isn't the logical and convenient solution to gender dysphoria and that's harmful because you're fear mongering about medically sound treatment.

Isn't always... but then again...

And that's not gonna happen on my watch.

"STOP RIGHT THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM!"

And I'm so tired of obvious transphobes claiming that they're supressed.

You're not oppressed.

And there we have it!


Now... to refute your claims on having all the data, I have all these links. It's as I was saying before: you're the one spreading harmful information. You may have found data to suggest that detransition is rare and that transitioning is the most safe and logical decision, but... there are a while lot of risks involved. You should've taken the time to look for any flaws before you ran off with it to support your ideology.

You could delete my comment or ban me all you like, but then who'd be the villain? You might as well just put the world inside a bottle.

Puberty Blockers:

https://www.fda.gov/media/159663/download&ved=2ahUKEwif5pLwoK38AhVuj4kEHTDdACoQFnoECB8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw10vOUImaN66j8ii42dtXRu

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK547863/#:~:text=Common%20side%20effects%20of%20the,worsening%20of%20diabetes%20and%20osteoporosis
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3671348/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24212879/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7233750/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4342775/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5997553/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4898068/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2669307/

Autoimmunity:
https://www.sciforschenonline.org/journals/autoimmune-infectious/article-data/AIDOA125/AIDOA125.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6180207/
https://bsd.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13293-020-00325-4
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6501433/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4701921/

HRT and Genetic Disorders:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5378510/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32079984/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8647165/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31372078/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32450447/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30307546/
https://academic.oup.com/clinchem/article/65/1/57/5607952?login=true
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27916515/