Discussion Great reflection/ thought on depression:

[MeltingHeart]

I just read this in a comment following a TED talk on depression and I thought it was worth sharing- as is a fair response to the old 'there are people worst off than you' that people may think or say to depressed people. It also poses a interesting question/ point of reflection on the subject. This is what it said:

"People always tell me the typical "You know other people are worse off than you. You could have cancer." We might not have literal cancer, but I often wonder what it would feel like to be dying every day desperately wanting to live, than to be living every day desperately wanting to die. We do have cancer.. just not in the form of a physical tumor and alot slower of a death."

I have highlighted the bit I find most interesting & that is ripe for philosophical debate. I cant even comprehend the former- as I am not ill & yet have such a strong desire to die, yet the guilt I do feel with that is also strong- knowing that for many it is the latter. But then this just adds to me thinking how sad and topsy-turvy the world is- and full of all different kinds of pain and suffering- which obvs. just deepens my depression.

 

[brainpain2]

The quote you bolded what one of the most thought provoking and beautiful quotes I have read in so long . I hope you don't mind if I borrow it and share

 

[MeltingHeart]

I wish

The quote you bolded what one of the most thought provoking and beautiful quotes I have read in so long . I hope you don't mind if I borrow it and share

No not at all- I stole it from somewhere else- and is such a simple concept and yet it really nails the inherent tragedy of the conundrum of us that want to ctb- like it's utterly awful to even consider & say, and dare I even say it- but some long term deeply depressive would even 'want' to have cancer - I mean of course we wouldn't- we'd prefer not to feel this way- or we'd like to find a peaceful 'exit' but I'm sure that in those darkest moments that thought may have crossed our minds (unless I am totally alone in that ) which is a devastating thought. And the over whelming guilt factor if anyone in that position - knew that, that thought could cross the mind of someone 'healthy' :( its so awful really. I know it is.

 

[WhiteDespair]

I wish

No not at all- I stole it from somewhere else- and is such a simple concept and yet it really nails the inherent tragedy of the conundrum of us that want to ctb- like it's utterly awful to even consider & say, and dare I even say it- but some long term deeply depressive would even 'want' to have cancer - I mean of course we wouldn't- we'd prefer not to feel this way- or we'd like to find a peaceful 'exit' but I'm sure that in those darkest moments that thought may have crossed our minds (unless I am totally alone in that ) which is a devastating thought. And the over whelming guilt factor if anyone in that position - knew that, that thought could cross the mind of someone 'healthy' :( its so awful really. I know it is.

The "cancer" we want comes in many forms. It could be our heart exploding from drugs, not wearing a seat belt or "accidentally" forgetting to take a necessary precaution. The "cancer" may even be engaging in self-desructive behaviors simply to provide the REASON to CtB and not the actual CtB itself. "I got fired? Hot diggity dog! That's a fine enough reason to break out the SN and have a drink!"

There were definitely times I wanted "cancer." At this point, if I did get cancer I don't know if I'd accept treatment.

 

[BlueWidow]

Yes, I feel this way to a lot.

I spent five years watching my husband go through all sorts of horrible procedures, Including severe chemotherapy, bone marrow biopsies, and a bone marrow transplant.
Being poked and prodded by doctors and nurses constantly.
And even at the end, at his sickest, he was still very angry and upset when the doctors told him he had to go into hospice because there was nothing more they could do for him. In fact as we were leaving the hospital, he was in a wheelchair unable to get up and had to be on oxygen 24 hours a day, but he left the hospital the day they referred him to hospice shouting to all of them that they were a bunch of pussies because they wouldn't let him go back into chemotherapy again even if it killed him. My husband wanted to die fighting. He said he was trying to set an example for his family about never giving up. It was obviously heart wrenching for me to watch all of this.
I saw him do so many amazing things and struggle so hard to push forward when he could barely hold his head up.

Now, here I am about to throw in the towel and give up. While I don't feel like I've given up without a fight because I've been fighting all my life, I just don't have the strength anymore. And the main difference between me and him is that he had people to fight and to live for and to set an example for, without him I have no one. It's hard sometimes though. He was so much stronger than me.
And he had a life and a desire to keep living it. Again, without him, my happy life and my desire to live are gone.
It would be a totally foreign concept to me to be sick and dying and want to live. I can't even imagine what that would be like.

Although I will say, at least when you're dying it's going to be over at some point soon. Do you know what I'm saying, if you're fighting to live while you're dying, you're eventually going to die and it's going to be over. There is an endpoint. However, when it's the opposite and you're alive but wanting to die, there doesn't ever seem to be an endpoint. Or at least, the endpoint seems like it could be years or even decades away.
It would be hard for me to say which one is easier.

 

[MeltingHeart]

Yes, I feel this way to a lot.

I spent five years watching my husband go through all sorts of horrible procedures, Including severe chemotherapy, bone marrow biopsies, and a bone marrow transplant.
Being poked and prodded by doctors and nurses constantly.
And even at the end, at his sickest, he was still very angry and upset when the doctors told him he had to go into hospice because there was nothing more they could do for him. In fact as we were leaving the hospital, he was in a wheelchair unable to get up and had to be on oxygen 24 hours a day, but he left the hospital the day they referred him to hospice shouting to all of them that they were a bunch of pussies because they wouldn't let him go back into chemotherapy again even if it killed him. My husband wanted to die fighting. He said he was trying to set an example for his family about never giving up. It was obviously heart wrenching for me to watch all of this.
I saw him do so many amazing things and struggle so hard to push forward when he could barely hold his head up.

Now, here I am about to throw in the towel and give up. While I don't feel like I've given up without a fight because I've been fighting all my life, I just don't have the strength anymore. And the main difference between me and him is that he had people to fight and to live for and to set an example for, without him I have no one. It's hard sometimes though. He was so much stronger than me.
And he had a life and a desire to keep living it. Again, without him, my happy life and my desire to live are gone.
It would be a totally foreign concept to me to be sick and dying and want to live. I can't even imagine what that would be like.

Although I will say, at least when you're dying it's going to be over at some point soon. Do you know what I'm saying, if you're fighting to live while you're dying, you're eventually going to die and it's going to be over. There is an endpoint. However, when it's the opposite and you're alive but wanting to die, there doesn't ever seem to be an endpoint. Or at least, the endpoint seems like it could be years or even decades away.
It would be hard for me to say which one is easier.

Im so sorry about yr husband. yes it does feel relentless- i agree- and that having no end point- you just feel so so trapped-its a horrible feeling. I had a friend who passed last yr- he was young-38 or so, from diagnosis till death- i think he lived a year or so- my heart goes out to his partner- as it did to him when he was ill- but he had even written a letter close to end-to be read at his wake- and it was as astoundingly lacking in torment- he talked spoke about what a great life he had led, how he had done so much and how lucky he was- with all his friends and family and all that he had experienced - I dont know how much was for the sake of his loved ones it was written- but in some ways it seemed he had come to terms with his condition and made peace with the fact he was going to die- this is not to deny the sadness of it, but he did not seem tortured by the fact towards the end. It was actually not long after that I first tried to ctb (not related as such) but I would have been mortified had his partner-who i also knew-of course she would be to much in her own time of grief-i would be quite rightly irrelevant- but still the thought crossed my mind. Not even sure why.

The "cancer" we want comes in many forms. It could be our heart exploding from drugs, not wearing a seat belt or "accidentally" forgetting to take a necessary precaution. The "cancer" may even be engaging in self-desructive behaviors simply to provide the REASON to CtB and not the actual CtB itself. "I got fired? Hot diggity dog! That's a fine enough reason to break out the SN and have a drink!"

There were definitely times I wanted "cancer." At this point, if I did get cancer I don't know if I'd accept treatment.

I would say I wouldnt want treatment - but who knows maybe i would due to pain etc, although from the sounds of it alot of the treatment & its side effects is the worst thing to go through-but people do it because they want to live.

 

[WhiteDespair]

Im so sorry about yr husband. yes it does feel relentless- i agree- and that having no end point- you just feel so so trapped-its a horrible feeling. I had a friend who passed last yr- he was young-38 or so, from diagnosis till death- i think he lived a year or so- my heart goes out to his partner- as it did to him when he was ill- but he had even written a letter close to end-to be read at his wake- and it was as astoundingly lacking in torment- he talked spoke about what a great life he had led, how he had done so much and how lucky he was- with all his friends and family and all that he had experienced - I dont know how much was for the sake of his loved ones it was written- but in some ways it seemed he had come to terms with his condition and made peace with the fact he was going to die- this is not to deny the sadness of it, but he did not seem tortured by the fact towards the end. It was actually not long after that I first tried to ctb (not related as such) but I would have been mortified had his partner-who i also knew-of course she would be to much in her own time of grief-i would be quite rightly irrelevant- but still the thought crossed my mind. Not even sure why.

I would say I wouldnt want treatment - but who knows maybe i would due to pain etc, although from the sounds of it alot of the treatment & its side effects is the worst thing to go through-but people do it because they want to live.

I'd not skimp on the morphine. The chemo and all that other stuff is a toss up. Keep the oxy coming while I decide on the rest.

 

[Reyki6667]

Funny fact, there is no shortage of testimonies of patient who experienced both cancer and severe depression telling that having depression is way worse.

 

[Misanthrope]

'People are worse off than you.'

This is such a stupid thing to point out. In my embittered somewhat unhinged state it makes me just want to punch that person in the face! Especially if it comes from a dismissive place. Then when they are lying on the floor bleeding from their nose. I will then tell them, "There are people in North Korea who know the pain of eating their own children to stave off starvation and still die slowly anyway. That in comparison to me now punching you in the face repeatedly for the next hour is nothing. So stop complaining while I keep punching you in the face. Be grateful you are not as bad off as the North Koreans, how entitled and selfish you are to moan about my fists and a mere hour. Think of what they suffered."

You explore this bankrupt logic to its conclusion. It implies your pain is only valid when it is as bad as something far worse than what is currently occurring to you. That though does nothing to help you with your current pain, it just dismisses how serious it is to you in the moment. That is pretty damn invalidating then.

If it is meant to engender gratefulness, you are essentially being grateful that there are people worse off than you and you are not them. Sounds pretty sick when you put it like that. Can't say that really helps with the depression, knowing people are worse off than me. Kinda feeds it actually. It is also proof you can fall further and worse than now does potentially exist.

Lastly, everyone's thresholds for pain is different. Comparing it is utterly pointless. Physical, mental or societal, unaddressed pain still kills people. So does it really matter what pain is worse?. There are too many justifications used to dismiss pain and the above trite phrase is just one of them.

 

[MeltingHeart]

Funny fact, there is no shortage of testimonies of patient who experienced both cancer and severe depression telling that having depression is way worse.

really, i havent read that..but would find it of interest to read their personal take on this

'People are worse off than you.'

This is such a stupid thing to point out. In my embittered somewhat unhinged state it makes me just want to punch that person in the face! Especially if it comes from a dismissive place. Then when they are lying on the floor bleeding from their nose. I will then tell them, "There are people in North Korea who know the pain of eating their own children to stave off starvation and still die slowly anyway. That in comparison to me now punching you in the face repeatedly for the next hour is nothing. So stop complaining while I keep punching you in the face. Be grateful you are not as bad off as the North Koreans, how entitled and selfish you are to moan about my fists and a mere hour. Think of what they suffered."

You explore this bankrupt logic to its conclusion. It implies your pain is only valid when it is as bad as something far worse than what is currently occurring to you. That though does nothing to help you with your current pain, it just dismisses how serious it is to you in the moment. That is pretty damn invalidating then.

If it is meant to engender gratefulness, you are essentially being grateful that there are people worse off than you and you are not them. Sounds pretty sick when you put it like that. Can't say that really helps with the depression, knowing people are worse off than me. Kinda feeds it actually. It is also proof you can fall further and worse than now does potentially exist.

Lastly, everyone's thresholds for pain is different. Comparing it is utterly pointless. Physical, mental or societal, unaddressed pain still kills people. So does it really matter what pain is worse?. There are too many justifications used to dismiss pain and the above trite phrase is just one of them.

jesus- is that true about N.Korea?! not sure i want to know actually. anyway-all v.lucidly argued as usual, good points each one, esp the idea of measuring off someone else misfortunate in order to feel better or grateful for ones own- and the fact that dwelling on the extent & depths of others suffering around certainly is no good way to alleviate personal depression-far from it. I'll always have a little guilt for feeling the way I do-but feel it I will nonetheless-and then in turn what does guilt feed into-self loathing! yay.

 

[BlueWidow]

I'd not skimp on the morphine. The chemo and all that other stuff is a toss up. Keep the oxy coming while I decide on the rest.

My husband used to refuse all pain meds until he absolutely couldn't stand it anymore.
I agree with you, I'd take any and all pain meds they offered me. However, after watching both my sister and my husband go through chemo, I would pass on that. It's not worth it to go through all that hell just to end up dying anyway. Just dope me up with pain pills and let me die.

 

[Return2Dust]

My husband used to refuse all pain meds until he absolutely couldn't stand it anymore.
I agree with you, I'd take any and all pain meds they offered me. However, after watching both my sister and my husband go through chemo, I would pass on that. It's not worth it to go through all that hell just to end up dying anyway. Just dope me up with pain pills and let me die.

I'm so sorry for your loss.

 

[Sweet emotion]

I just read this in a comment following a TED talk on depression and I thought it was worth sharing- as is a fair response to the old 'there are people worst off than you' that people may think or say to depressed people. It also poses a interesting question/ point of reflection on the subject. This is what it said:

"People always tell me the typical "You know other people are worse off than you. You could have cancer." We might not have literal cancer, but I often wonder what it would feel like to be dying every day desperately wanting to live, than to be living every day desperately wanting to die. We do have cancer.. just not in the form of a physical tumor and alot slower of a death."

I have highlighted the bit I find most interesting & that is ripe for philosophical debate. I cant even comprehend the former- as I am not ill & yet have such a strong desire to die, yet the guilt I do feel with that is also strong- knowing that for many it is the latter. But then this just adds to me thinking how sad and topsy-turvy the world is- and full of all different kinds of pain and suffering- which obvs. just deepens my depression.

The quote about cancer, I can't agree with you more on. I have Complex regional pain syndrome which is the highest ranking pain condition in medical history and there is no cures for it and you just pray to die each time you wake up. With cancer you fight to live. With this and a lot of it her diseases you pray to die. And there are not as many options as there are for people like me and you that there are for cancer patients. And in some states if you have six months left to live you can be given something to die peacefully. Where is my peacefully death? I have to do that myself. I'm not trivializing cancer. My father died from it and my grandmother beat it. But they didn't suffer as much as I suffer every day combined. You say cancer and people freak. But you say other conditions and people say it could be worse it could be cancer. Do they know that I pray for cancer so I can turn down treatment and go to a state where they will give me medication to kill myself? And with cancer you either get better or die and are put out of your misery. It may take a long time to die but it's not going to take a lifetime where it would take me to be out of my misery.

The "cancer" we want comes in many forms. It could be our heart exploding from drugs, not wearing a seat belt or "accidentally" forgetting to take a necessary precaution. The "cancer" may even be engaging in self-desructive behaviors simply to provide the REASON to CtB and not the actual CtB itself. "I got fired? Hot diggity dog! That's a fine enough reason to break out the SN and have a drink!"

There were definitely times I wanted "cancer." At this point, if I did get cancer I don't know if I'd accept treatment.

I said the same thing you did about not wanting treatment if you got it for cancer.

'People are worse off than you.'

This is such a stupid thing to point out. In my embittered somewhat unhinged state it makes me just want to punch that person in the face! Especially if it comes from a dismissive place. Then when they are lying on the floor bleeding from their nose. I will then tell them, "There are people in North Korea who know the pain of eating their own children to stave off starvation and still die slowly anyway. That in comparison to me now punching you in the face repeatedly for the next hour is nothing. So stop complaining while I keep punching you in the face. Be grateful you are not as bad off as the North Koreans, how entitled and selfish you are to moan about my fists and a mere hour. Think of what they suffered."

You explore this bankrupt logic to its conclusion. It implies your pain is only valid when it is as bad as something far worse than what is currently occurring to you. That though does nothing to help you with your current pain, it just dismisses how serious it is to you in the moment. That is pretty damn invalidating then.

If it is meant to engender gratefulness, you are essentially being grateful that there are people worse off than you and you are not them. Sounds pretty sick when you put it like that. Can't say that really helps with the depression, knowing people are worse off than me. Kinda feeds it actually. It is also proof you can fall further and worse than now does potentially exist.

Lastly, everyone's thresholds for pain is different. Comparing it is utterly pointless. Physical, mental or societal, unaddressed pain still kills people. So does it really matter what pain is worse?. There are too many justifications used to dismiss pain and the above trite phrase is just one of them.

I can't tell you how much I agree with everything you've just said.