Discussion For those who believe not all reasons for CTB are equal - what is your definition of a good reason and why?

[GrumpyFrog]

Firstly, I do not wish to invalidate anyone's reason for CTB. I think we can all agree that anyone is allowed to leave peacefully here - but some of us might still have opinions on which reasons are significant and relatable to them and which are hard to comprehend. I know it is a controversial topic, but I am interested in opinions and mostly in the reasoning behind those opinions.
Secondly, I am a moron, so if this is in a wrong subforum and should be in "politics and philosophy" or "suicide discussion" instead - my apologies for that.

 

[hamvil]

From time to time I do see some reasons that are "hard to comprehend" if we want to use your words. I never commented on those mostly because I do not think the poster cares about my opinion and in any case I am not interested in give thumbs up and down to the reasons of the others. My reasons feel legit to me, I assume it is the same for the others. We all have to die, it makes little difference where and when.

 

[noname223]

If the person has issues that I could easily help to overcome. I think it is almost a necessity to let the person know some information in case they don't know it but oneself could help.
But in pratice there are a lot of issues coming with this definition.

I am scared to sound presumptuous when giving advices. I am scared to hurt the person even more. I personally have the feeling I would have to take A LOT of energy to do this more often. The issues are often very complex. And I am simply very overburdended with my own problems.

If I have the feeling I have some knowledge which could help the other person I say it. At the same time it should not be platidudes which hurt the person even more. I am too anxious about that.

I feel pressure not to do something wrong in a specific cases because I have the feeling I barely have any knowledge about other the person.

In general I try to make people think in this forum and maybe give them unusual perspectives. But one should still respect them.

It does not exactly answer your question. But it is related to it.

 

[Teddybear]

We (humans) are all "morons" in one way or another. :) And for me personally no number of reasons are valid to "CTB", as long I still got 1 reason to live.

But w/o even that 1 reason, what's the point in going on? As long as there is a shred of doubt, don't do it. You can always kill yourself another day.

Yet if life itself becomes to heavy to carry, then put down that burden and just let go.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

If the person has issues that I could easily help to overcome. I think it is almost a necessity to let the person know some information in case they don't know it but oneself could help.
But in pratice there are a lot of issues coming with this definition.

I think this is a great way to think about it - I agree that it is important that the person in pain really knows what their options are, and helping them get more information or see a new perspective is admirable, as long as you aren't pressuring them and are ready to accept that they might not want to follow your advice or disagree with your perspective. But indeed, being there for someone who is in such a dark place is not easy, especially when your own mental state is far from sunshine and rainbows and when you do not know the person well enough to know how they react to different things. Sometimes we cannot help even if we have the best intentions, and sometimes it is better for us to withdraw instead of forcing yourself to be supportive when you're also in a bad place, because that comes with a risk of unintentionally hurting each other if you're both super vulnerable.

And for me personally no number of reasons are valid to "CTB", as long I still got 1 reason to live.

But w/o even that 1 reason, what's the point in going on?

This makes a lot of sense, and it is an important note on the perspective. It's not just about the issue(s) and the reason(s) to give up - it is also about the reasons to go on, or a lack thereof. There are people out there who get through awful circumstances, and some even retain a positive mindset -not because they don't hurt or somehow suppress their pain with sheer willpower while we weaklings are moaning about our trouble, but because they have powerful reasons to go on that can outweight the pain. It is a matter of balance.

 

[hungry_ghost]

I do find it baffling when I see someone who seems to have much to live for.

But I guess it's also insensitive to be like, "Are you serious? I'd kill to be in your shoes. What do you have to whine about?"

Everyone's suffering is different and unique to them.

But I also think a lot of people who have passed through here tend to catastrophize small problems and instead of mustering the energy to solve them, it's easier to sit around and fantasize about not being alive to have to worry about them anymore.

And I am one of those people.

 

[Teddybear]

…
This makes a lot of sense, and it is an important note on the perspective. It's not just about the issue(s) and the reason(s) to give up - it is also about the reasons to go on, or a lack thereof. There are people out there who get through awful circumstances, and some even retain a positive mindset -not because they don't hurt or somehow suppress their pain with sheer willpower while we weaklings are moaning about our trouble, but because they have powerful reasons to go on that can outweight the pain. It is a matter of balance.

Its a well established fact that the glass half full/half empty part of our personallity is inherited. Early child hood trauma can amplify or suppress that genetic predisposition. But your preference up or down the hill is pretty much set at birth.

Now if one becomes suicidal then the neuro transmitters - which help the brain cells communicate - are strongly diminished. The different parts of your mimd quite literally stop talking to each other. And loneliness nourishes depression.

There are potent chemicals that can be used to correct that, or one might try talk theraphy. But the meds have strong side effects and theraphy takes a loong time, with an uncertain outcome.

So I - and me is the only guy I'm talking about here - have to ask myself: What kind of a life would I live after I went through all this?

Would it be worth living like that? Or more exactly: What for?!
What do I have left to look forward to?

And I for one find very different answers to that question in old age than I did as a young, energetic guy.

If you are young you think you know exactly what the future holds for you. But once you grew old and wised up to the crocked ways of life, you realize that uncertainty is the only thing that's certain about "the future". That and the fragillity of the flesh.

 

[want2dienow]

i dont need a reason

 

[Pluto]

Firstly, I do not wish to invalidate anyone's reason for CTB.

A bit off topic but it's so lovely to see you here. I'd feared the worst after our last chats.

I'd better cobble together an amateurish response to your question now. The most valid reasons for CTB in my insignificant opinion involve making an informed decision over a reasonable period of time. If the reason involves a situation that can be overcome with the right advice, it makes sense to make a decent effort at recovery first. I'm attempting a very shaky recovery myself with the logic that there's literally nothing to lose.

However, the problem is that it's very easy to argue that there's no reason for anyone to make any effort to overcome challenges because 'what's the point' or 'we are all going to die anyway'. Religious people overcome this by having various belief systems which make life purposeful from their perspective, but of course none of these would be persuasive to an outsider who has not been conditioned to find such ideas palatable.

So in the end, no outside source can instill any particular zest for life in an individual. Reasons for CTB could range from total apathy even in the midst of a lifestyle that other people would give anything to have, while another person might battle endlessly through unbearable conditions and never second-guess themselves.

I like to try and offer solutions when people are suicidal due to a particular grievance, and very occasionally have actually been able to help people in some meaningful way, but it's a very nuanced thing for the reasons others have mentioned.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

However, the problem is that it's very easy to argue that there's no reason for anyone to make any effort to overcome challenges because 'what's the point' or 'we are all going to die anyway'. Religious people overcome this by having various belief systems which make life purposeful from their perspective, but of course none of these would be persuasive to an outsider who has not been conditioned to find such ideas palatable.

So in the end, no outside source can instill any particular zest for life in an individual. Reasons for CTB could range from total apathy even in the midst of a lifestyle that other people would give anything to have, while another person might battle endlessly through unbearable conditions and never second-guess themselves.

I like to try and offer solutions when people are suicidal due to a particular grievance, and very occasionally have actually been able to help people in some meaningful way, but it's a very nuanced thing for the reasons others have mentioned.

First of all, I'm glad to see you too and happy to know you're looking into recovery.

I think it is admirable that you are trying to provide people with solutions. I wouldn't say that it is impossible for an outside source to instill zest for life in someone - after all, all of our inner processes are, in one way or another, just our brains processing the information we got from the outside sources. However, as you mentioned, it is indeed very nuanced. What works for one person will not necessarily work for another, we all want different things in life, after all. So offering a solution is worth a try, but not all offers are accepted and that's okay.

 

[Pluto]

I wouldn't say that it is impossible for an outside source to instill zest for life in someone

Now that you mention it, I was overlooking the whole 'motivational speaker' type. Sometimes people who have overcome extreme difficulties develop a mindset of hardened determination which not only leads them to survive, but go on to achieve extraordinary things that dazzle onlookers. Their stories, and the potent sense of inspiration, can be intoxicating and contagious.

Even then, there's a fine line between an adverse situation that can be overcome through mustering superhuman strength, and one that is unworkable in practice. Some people have overcome even terminal illness through sheer willpower, while others might be unable to conquer quite mundane issues because motivation is lacking. It seems best to avoid judgement.

The rest of us need to decide where we stand, hopefully making an informed choice. Unfortunately, a lot of motivational content would be considered inappropriate ("pro-life") here, which leaves us with a bit of a bias towards defeatism. This is a tragedy of circumstance, since there needs to be a place like this for people who just need to feel accepted, loved and supported in what may be their final days.

I don't want to drift off topic, but please reach out any time you might feel like a chat.

 

[Teddybear]

Now that you mention it, I was overlooking the whole 'motivational speaker' type. Sometimes people who have overcome extreme difficulties develop a mindset of hardened determination which not only leads them to survive, but go on to achieve extraordinary things that dazzle onlookers. Their stories, and the potent sense of inspiration, can be intoxicating and contagious.
…

I just find this type of people boring to the extreme.

I work in corporate IT with sheyit that's so complex, it makes brain surgery look simple. So one day we are all told to attend a conference over the weekend (unpaid overtime of course) and I think "that must be truly important stuff they'll be telling us there".

Only to find out that it was a motivational speaker telling us about mountain climbing and the challenges to survive up in the rock face.

I felt so livid I wanted to get up in *his* face. That guy couldn't distinguish a bit from a baud, he had no clue about TCP/IP data streams, web protocols or database interfaces.

I had worked my ass off to safely convert a DB Terrabytes in size. I needed sleep, I wanted pleasure and here I sat listening to this n00b telling us fancy tales about holding on to some shrubs high in the Alps.

I got up, took my girl friend to the hotel room and we f*cked the remainder of the day away. My boss was definetly not pleased, so I told him I'd fuck him, too, if it would make him feel any better.

Shortly after my generous offer he fired me. Not nice.

 

[NumbItAll]

I just find this type of people boring to the extreme.

I work in corporate IT with sheyit that's so complex, it makes brain surgery look simple. So one day we are all told to attend a conference over the weekend (unpaid overtime of course) and I think "that must be truly important stuff they'll be telling us there".

Only to find out that it was a motivational speaker telling us about mountain climbing and the challenges to survive up in the rock face.

I felt so livid I wanted to get up in *his* face. That guy couldn't distinguish a bit from a baud, he had no clue about TCP/IP data streams, web protocols or database interfaces.

I had worked my ass off to safely convert a DB Terrabytes in size. I needed sleep, I wanted pleasure and here I sat listening to this n00b telling us fancy tales about holding on to some shrubs high in the Alps.

I got up, took my girl friend to the hotel room and we f*cked the remainder of the day away. My boss was definetly not pleased, so I told him I'd fuck him, too, if it would make him feel any better.

Shortly after my generous offer he fired me. Not nice.

Agreed I will never understand the appeal of this particular genre of douchebaggery. In high school some absolute idiot came in to lecture us about how easy it is to become a millionaire from real estate, which of course is why everyone does it. Not like there is a finite supply of homes, huge barriers to entry, or any skill involved or anything. And then you have TED Talks where everyone marvels at some narcissist spewing nonsense about something that doesn't matter, all while wearing a stupid headset. Sorry this is off the original topic but I couldn't pass this up.

As far as the original topic, I don't see how any outsider can say what is a valid reason to ctb. I am in favor of offering help if possible but ultimately it is a personal decision. I would reference this essay on the subject which makes a lot of great points: http://antipsychiatry.org/suicide.htm (not necessarily endorsing this site as a whole but just this particular essay that is featured on it)

 

[Mr2005]

Something that can't be changed. If someone can do something about it but is choosing not to they deserve no sympathy