Exit bag questions

[Thatdude]

How much nitrogen is needed before someone is likely to die before getting exposed to pure nitrogen? What is the flow rate?
Like with the flow rate if it isnt high enough then o2 will seep in. Meaning if the flow rate is below a given amount then at least the person won't die.

I'm trying to get an idea on how much nitrogen to buy and the size of the tank. I want to overkill that part but I don't know what is the cut off before it might not work.

 

[Kapsyl]

It takes approximately 12-15 min to ctb in a near zero oxygen environment. So with the standard suggested flow rate of 15/lpm you would need a minimum of 225 liters of nitrogen to succeed. Now we double the amount for safety margins because some air could sip in and prolong the process, that leaves us with 450 liters of nitrogen.

I personally think 15/lpm is a little low and could easily see a flow rate of 25-30 lpm for more effective co2 removal. This would of course double the nitrogen even more to something like 800-1000 liters.

Having nitrogen enough for an hour or two isn't unheard of and isn't a bad idea. It only gets to much after around 3000-4000 liters, more than that the cylinders gets to cumbersome to move around or transport.

 

[Thatdude]

It takes approximately 12-15 min to ctb in a near zero oxygen environment. So with the standard suggested flow rate of 15/lpm you would need a minimum of 225 liters of nitrogen to succeed. Now we double the amount for safety margins because some air could sip in and prolong the process, that leaves us with 450 liters of nitrogen.

I personally think 15/lpm is a little low and could easily see a flow rate of 25-30 lpm for more effective co2 removal. This would of course double the nitrogen even more to something like 800-1000 liters.

Having nitrogen enough for an hour or two isn't unheard of and isn't a bad idea. It only gets to much after around 3000-4000 liters, more than that the cylinders gets to cumbersome to move around or transport.

Thanks. I didn't know I should look at 15 min. I thought it was 5.

Anyways based on that I would need something like this right? (the price was close for 150 cubic feet and this 300)

New 300 cuft Steel Nitrogen Cylinder | Gas Cylinder Source

New 300 cuft steel nitrogen cylinder. CGA580 valve, durable rust-stop painted finish and thick-walled heavy-duty construction.

gascylindersource.com

I'm still trying to figure out who to refill the tank and how much that will be

This making it roughly $300 for the tank

 

[BeBraveBrother]

It takes approximately 12-15 min to ctb in a near zero oxygen environment. So with the standard suggested flow rate of 15/lpm you would need a minimum of 225 liters of nitrogen to succeed. Now we double the amount for safety margins because some air could sip in and prolong the process, that leaves us with 450 liters of nitrogen.

I personally think 15/lpm is a little low and could easily see a flow rate of 25-30 lpm for more effective co2 removal. This would of course double the nitrogen even more to something like 800-1000 liters.

Having nitrogen enough for an hour or two isn't unheard of and isn't a bad idea. It only gets to much after around 3000-4000 liters, more than that the cylinders gets to cumbersome to move around or transport.

That's what I also think for my CTB.
I bought the biggest tank available to me, which is a 10 liters tank of 99.99% nitrogen on 200 bar equal to 2000 liters in total. As I already had some "dry trails" to get familar with the handling and to ensure to not have any leaks between "tank-pressure reducer- hose", it's less now, around 170-180 bar pressure now.
So am I right if I calculate 170 or180 x 10 l = 1700 to 1800 liters. Or is there a flaw in thinking/calculation?

I am also still scared that I unconcioulsy might uplift my arms to get rid off the bag after unconciousness. Although I am not sure if that's even possible after loosing day-awarness, it's still a think that is bothering me.
Some discussed using bungee chords, yet I am still unsere how I would technically use them.

 

[Kapsyl]

Thanks. I didn't know I should look at 15 min. I thought it was 5.

Anyways based on that I would need something like this right? (the price was close for 150 cubic feet and this 300)

I'm still trying to figure out who to refill the tank and how much that will be

This making it roughly $300 for the tank

Most methods actually require around 12 min since that's the time to become completely brain dead, any method which hinders the brain to receive oxygen.

That cylinder is massive! 8400 liter of nitrogen is quite overkill, there's not really any advantage to have that much. Just moving around a 143 pound cylinder creates challenges.

That's what I also think for my CTB.
I bought the biggest tank available to me, which is a 10 liters tank of 99.99% nitrogen on 200 bar equal to 2000 liters in total. As I already had some "dry trails" to get familar with the handling and to ensure to not have any leaks between "tank-pressure reducer- hose", it's less now, around 170-180 bar pressure now.
So am I right if I calculate 170 or180 x 10 l = 1700 to 1800 liters. Or is there a flaw in thinking/calculation?

I am also still scared that I unconcioulsy might uplift my arms to get rid off the bag after unconciousness. Although I am not sure if that's even possible after loosing day-awarness, it's still a think that is bothering me.
Some discussed using bungee chords, yet I am still unsere how I would technically use them.

Yes your calculations are roughly accurate, you have plenty to be successful.

It's possible during that short window into unconsciousness that you will try to rip of the bag, the body is unaware of the danger so it's all in your psyche if you will try or not. Most likely you will not since it will come as a surprise the unconsciousness but some use some sort of restraint to prevent that.

You could use some form of "play" handcuffs without keys, this will prevent any involuntary actions and simultaneously will allow you to abort.

It's however recommended to use straps or pillows to secure you don't fall over and rip of the bag that way.

 

[Thatdude]

Most methods actually require around 12 min since that's the time to become completely brain dead, any method which hinders the brain to receive oxygen.

That cylinder is massive! 8400 liter of nitrogen is quite overkill, there's not really any advantage to have that much. Just moving around a 143 pound cylinder creates challenges.




Yes your calculations are roughly accurate, you have plenty to be successful.

It's possible during that short window into unconsciousness that you will try to rip of the bag, the body is unaware of the danger so it's all in your psyche if you will try or not. Most likely you will not since it will come as a surprise the unconsciousness but some use some sort of restraint to prevent that.

You could use some form of "play" handcuffs without keys, this will prevent any involuntary actions and simultaneously will allow you to abort.

It's however recommended to use straps or pillows to secure you don't fall over and rip of the bag that way.

From my understanding after 1 or 2 breaths you are knocked out. The biggest risk is you fall over and knock the gear off. I honestly don't know if this is 100% true. Like I don't know if it takes longer to be knocked out.


Anyways I'm still trying to figure this out. I'm fine with having a good bit too much. It's just it shard to find a local place that will fill it up and tanks.

 

[J&L383]

That's what I also think for my CTB.
I bought the biggest tank available to me, which is a 10 liters tank of 99.99% nitrogen on 200 bar equal to 2000 liters in total. As I already had some "dry trails" to get familar with the handling and to ensure to not have any leaks between "tank-pressure reducer- hose", it's less now, around 170-180 bar pressure now.
So am I right if I calculate 170 or180 x 10 l = 1700 to 1800 liters. Or is there a flaw in thinking/calculation?

I am also still scared that I unconcioulsy might uplift my arms to get rid off the bag after unconciousness. Although I am not sure if that's even possible after loosing day-awarness, it's still a think that is bothering me.
Some discussed using bungee chords, yet I am still unsere how I would technically use them.

I believe once you pass out quickly you won't be thrashing about. That's more likely if you're "suffocating" with CO2 (it triggers a panic mode in your brain) rather than using nitrogen. But it wouldn't hurt to make the connection on the neck nice and secure.

 

[BeBraveBrother]

From my understanding after 1 or 2 breaths you are knocked out. The biggest risk is you fall over and knock the gear off. I honestly don't know if this is 100% true. Like I don't know if it takes longer to be knocked out.


Anyways I'm still trying to figure this out. I'm fine with having a good bit too much. It's just it shard to find a local place that will fill it up and tanks.

I believe once you pass out quickly you won't be thrashing about. That's more likely if you're "suffocating" with CO2 (it triggers a panic mode in your brain) rather than using nitrogen. But it wouldn't hurt to make the connection on the neck nice and secure.

Yes, it seems to go very quick after I pass out.
I am just wondering about the state that I am in after passing out.
It could maybe still be possible to feel something and have some kind of conciousness, even if not visible from the outside.
I knew some people here who did some trials to test that passing out - with a scuba mask that would fall down after they pass out - reported having seen pictures like in a dream state.
I just hope the arms won't do anything anymore then.
And that my body won't let me know in that dream, that it's suffocating.
The dying of the brain is sucessively for around 15 minutes. I am only scared of that time being extremly cruel.

 

[J&L383]

Yeah, there is a lot to consider, we don't have any "inside data". What exactly is going on during the dying . I hope it's like the near death experiences where you see a light and find peace at the end.

 

[BeBraveBrother]

Yeah, there is a lot to consider, we don't have any "inside data". What exactly is going on during the dying . I hope it's like the near death experiences where you see a light and find peace at the end.

Yeah. I think most report pleasant experiences but there are also some coming back with deeply hellish experiences.
Would be good to know what made who experience what.

I envy everyone who has the balls to just do it and not overthink as much as I do what would happen in that time frame

 

[UnwillingSavior]

Yes, it seems to go very quick after I pass out.
I am just wondering about the state that I am in after passing out.
It could maybe still be possible to feel something and have some kind of conciousness, even if not visible from the outside.
I knew some people here who did some trials to test that passing out - with a scuba mask that would fall down after they pass out - reported having seen pictures like in a dream state.
I just hope the arms won't do anything anymore then.
And that my body won't let me know in that dream, that it's suffocating.
The dying of the brain is sucessively for around 15 minutes. I am only scared of that time being extremly cruel.

Your body doesn't know that it's suffocating, afaik. It only senses a high CO2 level which won't exist if you use an exit bag, where the nitrogen displaces oxygen and carries away the CO2.

I've watched industry videos that explain the dangers of low oxygen environments, and from what it seems, you go completely limp and unconscious in just a few seconds. Your body needs oxygen to produce energy and, without it, is basically an engine with no fuel. The process of brain death begins at 3 minutes I think, so even if you got to only 7–8 minutes of nitrogen flow lets say, you'll be a vegetable until your body succumbs to a still failing brain. I doubt much oxygen would penetrate the exit bag either, even after the flow of nitrogen ceases. Your breathing should become more of a messy shuddering motion in this state, so you won't be breathing correctly anyway. And if we assume the bag comes off, and you are exposed to oxygen, then I would still guess you'll be unconscious and be alive for a while longer until succumbing to your partially dead brain.

Also, don't forget that your entire body needs oxygen. So you'll also have partially dead organs in this state as well.

All in all, just make sure the bag doesn't come off and no one will find you. It's a method that requires a bit of planning, so don't rush it.

 

[BeBraveBrother]

Your body doesn't know that it's suffocating, afaik. It only senses a high CO2 level which won't exist if you use an exit bag, where the nitrogen displaces oxygen and carries away the CO2.

I've watched industry videos that explain the dangers of low oxygen environments, and from what it seems, you go completely limp and unconscious in just a few seconds. Your body needs oxygen to produce energy and, without it, is basically an engine with no fuel. The process of brain death begins at 3 minutes I think, so even if you got to only 7–8 minutes of nitrogen flow lets say, you'll be a vegetable until your body succumbs to a still failing brain. I doubt much oxygen would penetrate the exit bag either, even after the flow of nitrogen ceases. Your breathing should become more of a messy shuddering motion in this state, so you won't be breathing correctly anyway. And if we assume the bag comes off, and you are exposed to oxygen, then I would still guess you'll be unconscious and be alive for a while longer until succumbing to your partially dead brain.

Also, don't forget that your entire body needs oxygen. So you'll also have partially dead organs in this state as well.

All in all, just make sure the bag doesn't come off and no one will find you. It's a method that requires a bit of planning, so don't rush it.

Yes, I know that oxygen deprivation doesn't evoke that suffocation feeling in the classical sense, but that's it's carbon dioxide if rebreathed.
That's why the process till fainting is considered being similar to getting very drunk.
Anyway I had a bad experience while trying carbonmonixide with a barbacue in a bathroom 7 years ago. The concenration was first high enough to kind of faint but then regained some parts of conciousness. The things I experienced were so bad that it's hard to describe it with words. I didn't know where I was, that I am, I just was full of the feeling of running out of oxygen from within (carbon monoxide is blocking oxygen in the Red blood cells). It also feels like suffocation although not in your lungs but in the whole body.

Although I know that it's just not possible to regain conciousnes with the exit bag method - if carried out correctly - there is still the fear that I will be in a dream like state and experience the symptoms of my body, even if I don't experience the outer world.

In dream states, it's definatly possible for the brain to integrated both stimuli from the outer world (for example if someone is talking, or a Song is playing while you are dreaming) and stimuli from the body (for example if parts of your body hurt and you dream of it - a friend dreamed having a leg horribly cut of because the leg was lying on some kind of wood and therefore was hurting).
So knowing this happens in dream states, we also know that people sometimes experience things from the outer world or from their body when they are in a coma after heavy brain damage.

In the exitbag process the brain dies in around 15 minutes. The dying process happens succesivly, not all at once. The brain consist of several parts. It is known that the most primitive part (fight or flight mechanism) is one of the last ones or THE last part to die. This might still make stress. I just don't want to have an experience of my heartbeat accelaration or anything else unplesant.


P.s.: I am far from rushing. Been in this forum since 2020 and I have the exit bag, nitrogen tank and everything else since 2021.
My time is long overdue