Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[Fathead70]

I been looking into beer making kits. CO2 and a mask. But need to find a regulator. That's not $500.

I had a date set but I'll be damned if something didn't come along and puss all over this date like the last one.

 

[Fathead70]

I had a date set but I'll be damned if something didn't come along and puss all over this date like the last one.

You do like this nickname . It was a nick name in highschool

 

[BlackpillAsshat]

Can someone explain to me why exactly nitrogen requires an exit bag, when carbon monoxide doesn't? Can't you just open a 10,000 liter tank inside a small space like a car? Since burning charcoal seems to do the trick, why can't nitrogen do the same?

 

[Shewaitsforme]

Can someone explain to me why exactly nitrogen requires an exit bag, when carbon monoxide doesn't? Can't you just open a 10,000 liter tank inside a small space like a car? Since burning charcoal seems to do the trick, why can't nitrogen do the same?

It can, aslong at the o2 has been purged from the space and there is enough nitrogen to do so and enough to over power your body so to speak. The body more readily takes up the carbon monoxide. Basically its the rise in carbon dioxide levels in the blood that triggers the breathing receptors not decrease in oxygen as most people think. Nitrogen doesnt do this so by using nitrogen you are fooling the body into thinking its in a way still breathing oxygen. Also why if you are using a bag you have to make sure the carbondioxide the body is producing can be expelled out the bag so the body doesnt get this rise in CO2 levels then start panicking as it wants oxygen. Both gases interfere with the amount of oxygen in the blood going to your cells, nitrogen is just harder for the body to detect. Hope that makes sence, do a little research and it wilk ease your mind :)

 

[BlackpillAsshat]

It can, aslong at the o2 has been purged from the space and there is enough nitrogen to do so and enough to over power your body so to speak. The body more readily takes up the carbon monoxide. Basically its the rise in carbon dioxide levels in the blood that triggers the breathing receptors not decrease in oxygen as most people think. Nitrogen doesnt do this so by using nitrogen you are fooling the body into thinking its in a way still breathing oxygen. Also why if you are using a bag you have to make sure the carbondioxide the body is producing can be expelled out the bag so the body doesnt get this rise in CO2 levels then start panicking as it wants oxygen. Both gases interfere with the amount of oxygen in the blood going to your cells, nitrogen is just harder for the body to detect. Hope that makes sence, do a little research and it wilk ease your mind :)

But let's consider the following: when using the exit bag, they highlight how important it is to have it loose enough on the neck so that CO2 can leave and not cause panic.

But why doesn't it matter when using a CO generator in a closed space? The place is airtight, CO2 and O2 aren't leaving anywhere, and yet CO takes up the place and is enough to kill.

I just want to use nitrogen in the same fashion, without having to prepare a bag. Getting a 10m³ tank is pretty easy and it'd be more than enough to fill up my car. If you say that O2 has to be purged somehow from the space, how exactly would I do that?

According to LAH:
"It is probably also possible to use a small tent that can be sealed. Ideally pushing out all the air whilst inside it, making sure most air is pushed out before sealing the tent, then filling it up with helium, argon or nitrogen. However, this method might require using more gas, and does not seem to be discussed in suicide literature and forums as the preferred way of performing this method."

So yeah, I haven't been finding much information about that.

 

[Shewaitsforme]

You can just its gonna take a more nitrogen than it would CO. They are different compounds so react differently on the body thats all. When using say car emmissions that gas comes out hotter than nitrogen does from the cylinder so putting CO through an exit bag will cause a negative reponse from your body and possibly lead to the removal of the bag. CO entering in the bag and the CO2 expelled from the body also in the bag is going to get a faster responce from the body that O2 is missing carbon dioxide in the blood is rising, with nitrogen at 15LPM, co2 being allowed to expell out the bag and that continuos pusing of O2 out the bag and not coming back in the body wont detect it. O2 saturation in the blood is lowering, Co2 in the blood isnt rising, body carries on doing its normal thing.

With COPD patients administering O2 is done with a caution as it could trigger the hypoxic drive, the body recognises the extra presence of O2 so respiration rate decreases again leading to more CO2 being present in the blood and as we know that could lead to death.

Receptors in the body are triggered by different things thats all, nitrogen is better at fooling them because the receptors are not looking/triggered by it.

The only way to purge the O2 is having the nitrogen push it out so it would require more nitrogen than it would having a bag on your head. Carbon atoms are coing to combine with the O2 in the car on their own so aslong as no more O2 is being allowed into the car you dont need the bag

 

[TiredHorse]

Can someone explain to me why exactly nitrogen requires an exit bag, when carbon monoxide doesn't? Can't you just open a 10,000 liter tank inside a small space like a car? Since burning charcoal seems to do the trick, why can't nitrogen do the same?

CO and Inert Gas (IG) work on completely different principles.

Your body --in particular your brain-- needs O2 to live.

With IG, you are creating an environment where there is no air, thus no O2. In a space filled with IG, your body cannot replenish the O2 as you breathe --it would if it could, but there's just no O2 available. You have removed the air. Could you do this in a larger space than an exit bag? Yes, but you would need an impractically large amount of IG to first flush all the air out of the car (for instance) and then create a flow of IG that both flushes away the CO2 and prevents air from leaking into the car as the IG leaks out.

With CO, you are filling the air with a substance (CO) that your blood prefers to O2, so it doesn't matter that there's air all around you, your body takes the CO by preference. The O2 remains available in the air, but because of the CO filling your blood, your body has no way to collect it. You are poisoning the air with a substance (CO) that your body prefers (fatally) to O2, and so long as you can apply an adequate dose of that poison, you have no need to remove the otherwise life-supporting air.

An exit bag allows you a small enough space to make IG practical. With CO, you can poison a much larger space much more easily.

 

[BlackpillAsshat]

I see now. I could swear it was just the same kind of chemical asphyxia. So, although they really both are chemical asphyxia, they achieve it through different means.

So far, CO is seeming much easier to be done.

But in terms of peacefulness, are they both pretty much the same or is there an advantage to one of them?

 

[TiredHorse]

But in terms of peacefulness, are they both pretty much the same or is there an advantage to one of them?

The short answer is that in terms of peacefulness, I don't know.

I have the impression that CO can give you some unpleasant side effects before you black out --headache, nausea, etc.-- but given how stealthy CO poisoning can be to the unwary, those side effects might not be so prevalent or so powerful as rumored. I suspect the CO megathread would give you better answers than I can. From the times I have tried and failed with inert gas (N2), I can assure you there is no physical discomfort.

Of course each of the two methods has its own logistical demands that may make one method or the other more appropriate, but that is entirely a different issue than peacefulness.

 

[Arak]

Argon, helium, nitrogen. For volume (in Europe), any suggestions ? More is better in this case.

 

[TiredHorse]

Argon, helium, nitrogen. For volume (in Europe), any suggestions ? More is better in this case.

I have no specific knowledge for Europe, but here in the US, nitrogen seems to be the cheapest option. They are all equally effective, assuming you get the pure stuff, unadulterated with air (as has been reported with some helium suppliers).

You shouldn't need more than 600L total gas, assuming you're using an exit bag. That's a fairly small cylinder.

 

[Arak]

I like larger volumes, safer that way. Prefer not to rely too much on luck and convoluted approaches.

 

[TiredHorse]

I like larger volumes, safer that way. Prefer not to rely too much on luck and convoluted approaches.

Fair enough. I have a 40cf tank instead of the minimum 20cf.

That said, don't rely on massive volumes to compensate for poorly assembled equipment, either. Understand how the technique works and you will understand what you need to achieve success with it.

 

[Arak]

Max Dog brewing: https://store.cyberweld.com/shielgascyl22.html 20cf

EU http://shop.gase-dopp.de/Stickstoff-28-2-Liter-Flasche-neu-gefuellt bit different but I think the same. 40cf would require a different supplier I think.

 

[TiredHorse]

Max Dog brewing: https://store.cyberweld.com/shielgascyl22.html 20cf

EU http://shop.gase-dopp.de/Stickstoff-28-2-Liter-Flasche-neu-gefuellt bit different but I think the same. 40cf would require a different supplier I think.

I don't read the language, but I'll trust that you've got it under control. And thank you very much for posting the resources!

 

[crova]

Max Dog brewing: https://store.cyberweld.com/shielgascyl22.html 20cf

EU http://shop.gase-dopp.de/Stickstoff-28-2-Liter-Flasche-neu-gefuellt bit different but I think the same. 40cf would require a different supplier I think.

I have this one from Ebay:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Nitrogen...h=item2a86eff418:g:X58AAOSwjjpbKqxH:rk:2:pf:1

 

[mysterymask]

test

 

[mysterymask]

okay guys please please please reply me....guide me along

 

[mysterymask]

im ordering nitrogen tank right now they are asking a few questions like

1. capacity of tank

2.pressure and flow rate

3. how many litres


how much do I get?

 

[Arak]

I have this one from Ebay:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Nitrogen...h=item2a86eff418:g:X58AAOSwjjpbKqxH:rk:2:pf:1

Right. But I see no brand name, and what about the flow regulator ? Is it up to spec for our purpose ?

 

[TiredHorse]

im ordering nitrogen tank right now they are asking a few questions like

1. capacity of tank

2.pressure and flow rate

3. how many litres

how much do I get?

You will need at least 600L of your gas of choice --N2, Ar, or He. That will determine the size (capacity) of the tank.

Here in the US, you want nothing smaller than a 20cf tank, and a 40cf tank gives you a good safety margin.

That's very odd that they're asking you what pressure and flow rate you want. Those would vary wildly depending on what you're doing with any given gas --even welding different thicknesses of metal, your flow will vary by the thickness.

What gas are you buying? That will determine your cover story and may help you talk to the gas tank supplier.

 

[Fathead70]

You do like this nickname . It was a nick name in highschool

Man I tell you I am either a fuckimg dip shit of I have forgotten how to use this sight. It seems like shit has changed man. I had to make a new account because the other 2 got fucked uonsine how. I'm ready for the CO2 challenge. Just gotta get a canister and mask. I'm thinking beer making will be my best chance . The regulator is what Fucks me up. Need to find out where to find this . Any ideas . Sorry my texting tonight is so shitty. S little whisky and it's like texting and driving.

 

[Smilla]

Man I tell you I am either a fuckimg dip shit of I have forgotten how to use this sight. It seems like shit has changed man. I had to make a new account because the other 2 got fucked uonsine how. I'm ready for the CO2 challenge. Just gotta get a canister and mask. I'm thinking beer making will be my best chance . The regulator is what Fucks me up. Need to find out where to find this . Any ideas . Sorry my texting tonight is so shitty. S little whisky and it's like texting and driving.

Reported.

 

[Fathead70]

Exit Bag and Inert Gas Basics —A very, very long post, I know, but I feel like I've fielded a lot of questions about this, so I figured I'd spell out everything I know. Others on the forum should please add to this thread whatever reliable technical information they feel is appropriate for someone attempting this method to have.

The idea behind using an exit bag with inert gas is to create an atmosphere around your head that is both free of life-sustaining O2 and can carry away the exhaled CO2 that would activate your hypercapnic alarm.

The Gas:

You will need to keep the inert gas flowing at 15 liters per minute (Lpm) for 40 minutes to be confident of ending your life —in other words, you'll need a minimum of 600 liters of inert gas. In the past this would have been helium (He), but due to the uncertain availability of genuinely pure He, the best current options are nitrogen (N2) and argon (Ar). Both are reliably available in pure form (no air contamination) from stores that supply welders. N2 is also available from some brewery supply houses, but the purity of the gas should be confirmed to your satisfaction. Both N2 and Ar should work to ctb and are similar enough in their properties to be treated identically for use with an exit bag.

Pressurized gas cylinder sizes are not standardized across the industry, nor internationally, and it can be difficult, if not impossible, to tell how much gas they contain from a photograph on a website.

In the US, a 20 cubic foot (cf) cylinder is the smallest you should use for ctb; a 40cf will allow some margin for flinching, practicing, etc. "A 20cf" and "a 40cf", or "a 20" and "a 40" is nomenclature US welding supply houses will recognize, so asking for either should get you the desired product. A 20cf cylinder is quite small for industrial use; I've had clerks tell me, "well, we have a 40, but we'll need to special order a 20." It's up to you what you do in that situation. Personally, I have a 40cf cylinder. It has allowed me to flinch and abort my attempt three times now, and I don't need to worry about refilling it. I bought my N2 at AirGas, a national company here in the US. They do not demand any sort of professional certification for purchasing inert gas, and no more than the usual forms of ID depending on payment method.

I know nothing of gas cylinders outside the US, so if you are using other than US-typical cylinders, you'll need to call and ask to make sure whatever tank you're contemplating holds 600L of compressed gas. Hopefully knowledgeable forum members will add cylinder sizing information to this knowledge base.

Cover story: N2 and Ar are both used for welding. N2 is used in beer brewing. In my day job, I use both N2 and Ar to flood partial cans of expensive paint, to displace the O2 in the cans and prevent the paint from skinning over and going bad. It's a cost saving measure. The clerks I've bought gas from have never heard of that trick, which has meant they don't know enough to interrogate me on my motives or to try and quiz me on my welding knowledge. They have merely said, "huh! That's a new one!"

The store clerk may ask how you're carrying the pressurized cylinder "back to your shop," since pressurized cylinders can be very hazardous to transport (the valve is vulnerable to damage in an accident). I haven't had any trouble when I have told the clerk, "in the back footwell of my car, and very carefully padded!" What they really want to know is that you are aware that a pressurized cylinder is a missile waiting to explode if anything damages it, and that you know enough to not let that happen.

Great stuff . I will not hesitate once I get my contaminated . I'm just finished with this shit . But hey great info and I appreciate it

 

[Fathead70]

Reported.

Reported ? For what ? Because I swore . Did I offend you ? I opologize if I did

 

[Jodes]

What options are there for the bag itself?

I think I've underestimated how difficult its design is....

Should the bag always be completely full at end end of each breath out, by keeping the flow rate high enough? Otherwise the bag could be sucked into the mouth? ----But that still doesn't guarantee it----

I'm worried. If it's supposedly a good method then I've missed something. I'm otherwise fully prepared!!!

Please help

 

[Kdawg2018]

What options are there for the bag itself?

I think I've underestimated how difficult its design is....

Should the bag always be completely full at end end of each breath out, by keeping the flow rate high enough? Otherwise the bag could be sucked into the mouth? ----But that still doesn't guarantee it----

I'm worried. If it's supposedly a good method then I've missed something. I'm otherwise fully prepared!!!

Please help

I like the reynolds oven bags for turkeys. The bag fills while above head, then breathe out, then pull down, the bag should not stick to mouth because the air puffs the bag up the whole time

 

[littlelady774]

Hi everyone,
I'm new to the forum and am planning on using this method.
I have a 22 cf tank (CGA 580), flow meter, and plastic tubing. Want to use N2.
I just need to find a gas supplier around here. I'm in a pretty rural area with not a lot around. Also worried about transporting a full cylinder in my car. Is it safe?
Thanks

 

[TiredHorse]

Also worried about transporting a full cylinder in my car. Is it safe?

Provisionally, yes, it's safe. The important thing is to make sure the tank can't roll around, and ideally that it is well enough secured that if you're in an accident it won't be flung around. And, of course, to avoid accidentally opening the valve and letting the N2 leak out.

The most critical element to consider when transporting compressed gas cylinders is to protect the valve stem, which is surprisingly fragile. It won't break off by handling it, of course, but if the tank is flung about in a car accident it is all too likely for the valve to be damaged and to release the highly compressed gas uncontrolledly --which turns the cylinder into a missile propelled by the escaping gas.

All that said, I don't get especially paranoid about it. I'll carry a 20cf in the footwell of my truck's back seat, wedged in place against the front seat with the blanket I always keep in the car.

With no idea where you are, I'm afraid I can't suggest a supplier. Here in the US, I have my various tanks filled by AirGas.

 

[mysterymask]

my suppliers told me that..

I needed 600l so thats eq to 0.6m3 which is 6.8l or 10l...

is that correct?