Even in death, it’s all about the survivors’ ego (A classic case)

[TAW122]

This isn't the first nor the last time a situation like this is going to happen and in this case, it is a classic example of pro-lifers not even practicing what they preach. I get that death can be harsh for people to experience, especially that of someone they know (or sometimes even strangers in general), but I figured I point out the hypocrisy of this particular situation.

This thread on Reddit (quoted below) just shows how egotistical one can be.

"I just found out a couple hours ago.

I don't know what to do, I don't know how to cope with this. We broke up two months ago. We cared for each other very much and had been together for two and half years. In that time in spite of loving each other very much we had issues that did not resolve even with countless discussions.

He called me last night to get closure and we talked for a few hours. He was trying to understand why I left and why I wasn't ready or willing to try again. I did my best to explain that while I would always love him, I could not be with him.

He said that his main purpose in life right now was me, and to get to a point in where I'd be willing to get back together. I said that it wasn't healthy to look at me that way, I told him that he should be motivated to improve his life for himself. I also made it clear that his chance to work things out had been when we were together and I when I was trying, not after I had already been burnt out and left.

I told him to please respect my boundaries and to stop trying to convince me to change my mind.

He said a a tearful goodbye.

An hour later, at 2:30am he shot himself.

I am in absolute shock. I am horrified and sad and I don't know what to do.

I feel so sick to my stomach and I keep going from emptiness, to crying, to anger that he would do this, and I feel completely useless.

If there is anyone who knows how to cope with this sort of situation, or has any advice, I would be very grateful because I am feeling so lost in this moment."

Now keep in mind I'm not going to deny that having someone die or experiencing bereavement isn't traumatic. It is especially for the person losing someone (the survivor(s)), but the hypocrisy lies in the fact that people are often quick to dismiss and play the "nobody is entitled to anything" card when it comes to relationships, human and civil rights (excluding the right to die), and many other aspects and areas in life. Yet, when it comes to bodily autonomy regarding death, suddenly they no longer play the card and even after one is successful (not that the deceased will suffer anymore consequence as the dead have no capacity nor ability to experience the aftermath), they make it all about themselves.

In a previous thread, I talked about how ceasing (in the form of blocking/ignoring someone) all forms of communication is de facto as if that particular person is dead to the individual (because when someone is literally dead, there is no future interaction or anything with said person(s), and cutting all contact with them is more/less the same). Another thread that I wrote years ago also highlights how people are just uncomfortable with the act itself (and also the aftermath), which is again their ego and their interests rather than the person suffering.

However, when it comes to having the knowledge of someone's death, it somehow just bothers them (the survivor or recipient of said news), yet when they remain ignorant or lack knowledge of such an event, it doesn't. This just proves it's not about the person they are mourning, but the fact of their moral, atavistic worldview being shattered. What they don't know can't hurt them applies pretty well in these situations.

So suppose they were under the impression that their ex (or whoever the person is, could be a stranger or a random person even…), was alive (even if untrue or they were operating under such a pretense) then they wouldn't be hurt by it. Their life would still go on as per default (without the knowledge of said person's death), which again just proves that it's the knowledge of the death that bothers them rather than death itself. This is kind of similar (albeit not quite the same) of the metaphysical and philosophical problem of "A tree falling in the forest and no one is there to hear it fall" situation.

What are your thoughts on this, is my observation more or less spot on? Again, as I conclude this thread, I do want to emphasize that losing someone can be hard so I don't want to detract from it. I'm merely writing this thread to expose the hypocrisy and irony of how people make others' death all about them (ego and selfishness).

 

[TAW122]

Bumping this thread, and ultimately, the entire premise of the thread comes to the fact that people just can't accept death and it is ironic how other situations (similar to death) they aren't bothered by it (especially due to the lack of knowledge of said event), yet it's only when they have knowledge of such event that they are bothered. Thus, it proves the fact that it's mainly all tied to their (pro-lifers') ego.

 

[Forever Sleep]

If I'm brutally honest- I do feel kind of sorry for this woman. It may have been accurate and it's not to blame this guy but to have someone tell you they rely on you utterly to keep going themselves is an enormous thing to put on someone. It's a big chore and responsibility just living your own life but to have someone say all their emotions, all their thoughts, all their actions also depend on you- that's a lot to try and shoulder.

Should she have stayed with him and mothered him through it? Even though from her perspective, she felt like the relationship was over? Was his life her responsibility? No- it was his and he made his decision. He may have felt she no longer cared about him and done it out of a broken heart. He may have done it to try and punish her even.

To be honest though- I feel it's too simplistic to criticise her for expressing feelings of sadness- maybe guilt because she cut him off. You must have people in your life who have irritated you. Maybe you don't even particularly like them. Doesn't mean you wouldn't feel bad if you found out they were ill or had died. I think we're more complex than that. Maybe she still wanted him as a friend but she found him too suffocating as a partner. She probably hoped he would recover for himself. She may not have realised just how low he was. But now- there's no hope for reconciliation. She has to go on living wondering whether she could have 'saved' him.

I just don't think people are as all or nothing as all that. Just because you haven't contacted someone in years- it doesn't necessarily mean they don't mean anything to you anymore. She didn't utterly shun him either by the sounds of it- she spoke to him for a few hours and tried to explain why she didn't feel comfortable to try again. Within the space of an hour, he'd killed himself. Honestly- if you had a conversation with someone who told you effectively that they adored you and couldn't live without you- but you don't want to be with them anymore, tactfully pushed them away and within an hour, they'd killed themselves- wouldn't that distress you? I think I'd feel distressed about that.

 

[TAW122]

If I'm brutally honest- I do feel kind of sorry for this woman. It may have been accurate and it's not to blame this guy but to have someone tell you they rely on you utterly to keep going themselves is an enormous thing to put on someone. It's a big chore and responsibility just living your own life but to have someone say all their emotions, all their thoughts, all their actions also depend on you- that's a lot to try and shoulder.

Should she have stayed with him and mothered him through it? Even though from her perspective, she felt like the relationship was over? Was his life her responsibility? No- it was his and he made his decision. He may have felt she no longer cared about him and done it out of a broken heart. He may have done it to try and punish her even.

To be honest though- I feel it's too simplistic to criticise her for expressing feelings of sadness- maybe guilt because she cut him off. You must have people in your life who have irritated you. Maybe you don't even particularly like them. Doesn't mean you wouldn't feel bad if you found out they were ill or had died. I think we're more complex than that. Maybe she still wanted him as a friend but she found him too suffocating as a partner. She probably hoped he would recover for himself. She may not have realised just how low he was. But now- there's no hope for reconciliation. She has to go on living wondering whether she could have 'saved' him.

I just don't think people are as all or nothing as all that. Just because you haven't contacted someone in years- it doesn't necessarily mean they don't mean anything to you anymore. She didn't utterly shun him either by the sounds of it- she spoke to him for a few hours and tried to explain why she didn't feel comfortable to try again. Within the space of an hour, he'd killed himself. Honestly- if you had a conversation with someone who told you effectively that they adored you and couldn't live without you- but you don't want to be with them anymore, tactfully pushed them away and within an hour, they'd killed themselves- wouldn't that distress you? I think I'd feel distressed about that.

That's an interesting take, and yes I do feel a bit of empathy for her, especially that shouldering the loss is quite a big hit to take. I had family members (not immediate ones but extended ones - cousins, uncles, aunts, grandparents, etc.) who have passed away, not necessarily by CTB, but by natural causes and/or other causes. While I do feel sorrow and am upset with their death, I also understand that they are no longer suffering. I couldn't be mad at them even if they did choose euthanasia (I don't believe they did; not that they would have such an option in the country that they lived in). Perhaps I might be a little too harsh in my thread trying to show that the particular woman was making it all about her.

Yes, any death does have an impact on the person and perhaps she cared a lot about it, so you are correct in that aspect that from her pov, guilt and regret (as she endured the event and is sentient to recognize and experience it along with the aftermath of her ex's death). I'm not sure, but if there was a way for people to accept that death is inevitable and perhaps it is not their fault and recognize that there is nothing she can do, maybe she might be a little bit more at peace with what happened? I don't really know the answer here as each individual is different in how they process death. I also agree that perhaps just simplifying this situation to a black and white situation is missing the point as there are many other factors and circumstances that we don't know about, especially whether her ex was really heart broken, or lashing out as an act of vengeance (in hopes to make his ex-gf feel guilty) or both factors.

To answer the last question, yes I would certainly feel distressed and sad, but I also accept that it is not my decision and the other person's decision. I'm not a busybody myself so I don't like to meddle, interfere, or even rat someone out unless it was my own business or my safety in jeopardy, or if I'm mandated to do so (like mandated reporters - who are required by law).

 

[SexyIncél]

What are your thoughts on this, is my observation more or less spot on?

Excellent point. Fact is, she's hurt more by his death than his suffering. It's not about him

He blows his brains out, alone. In contrast, she receives "so many genuinely helpful messages" sympathizing with her "anger that he would do this". Adding them to her "wonderful support system of friends and family". For more context, I looked through her posting history, but didn't see her asking for help easing HIS suffering. Just her own

Maybe it's because he was awful to her. Or maybe she was awful. Maybe both or neither

But in any case, that's why if I break up with a decent person, I should help them replace me. (Of course, I'm under no illusions that anyone'd do this for me.) Forcibly unplugging your teammate from your group mind can be excruciating. For them

If I suddenly withdraw someone's group mind, they may lose their sense of purpose, a big part of their emotion-regulation, etc. Because my goal is to provide what the universe is missing; otherwise why need me? I've studied the various arts of reducing suffering & increasing pleasure, which I proceed to apply to them; people can be drugs, and withdrawal can destroy a person

 

[Forever Sleep]

That's an interesting take, and yes I do feel a bit of empathy for her, especially that shouldering the loss is quite a big hit to take. I had family members (not immediate ones but extended ones - cousins, uncles, aunts, grandparents, etc.) who have passed away, not necessarily by CTB, but by natural causes and/or other causes. While I do feel sorrow and am upset with their death, I also understand that they are no longer suffering. I couldn't be mad at them even if they did choose euthanasia (I don't believe they did; not that they would have such an option in the country that they lived in). Perhaps I might be a little too harsh in my thread trying to show that the particular woman was making it all about her.

Yes, any death does have an impact on the person and perhaps she cared a lot about it, so you are correct in that aspect that from her pov, guilt and regret (as she endured the event and is sentient to recognize and experience it along with the aftermath of her ex's death). I'm not sure, but if there was a way for people to accept that death is inevitable and perhaps it is not their fault and recognize that there is nothing she can do, maybe she might be a little bit more at peace with what happened? I don't really know the answer here as each individual is different in how they process death. I also agree that perhaps just simplifying this situation to a black and white situation is missing the point as there are many other factors and circumstances that we don't know about, especially whether her ex was really heart broken, or lashing out as an act of vengeance (in hopes to make his ex-gf feel guilty) or both factors.

To answer the last question, yes I would certainly feel distressed and sad, but I also accept that it is not my decision and the other person's decision. I'm not a busybody myself so I don't like to meddle, interfere, or even rat someone out unless it was my own business or my safety in jeopardy, or if I'm mandated to do so (like mandated reporters - who are required by law).

I think suicide is a very specific kind of death. Even compared to assisted suicide. Presumably with assisted suicide and natural death from an illness- families and loved ones know it's coming. Even though assisted suicide is at that person's decision- it has been approved. Presumably the person has told their loved ones their wishes. They may well have found them hard to accept- they may have even asked them to reconsider but- they've had a chance to talk about it and prepare.

A self inflicted suicide is likely a lot more sudden and a lot more of a shock. I'm sure it feels all sorts of things- including tragic but it's also an act of defiance and rejection I suppose. Whoever we have left on this planet- we're not willing to stay for them. That's bound to hurt. The people left behind could well feel guilty that they weren't there for them enough. They may well feel abandoned too and angry that this person they cared about has left them. Maybe they feel hurt that they didn't even trust them enough or value their support to even tell them. I can see why people feel hurt.

Yes- they're only focusing on their pain but- that's all there is now. The other person is gone. Part of their pain is presumably knowing that they didn't stop the pain of the person who killed themself. That's got to be hard to deal with either way. Either they knew about it and didn't take the person seriously. Couldn't help them despite trying or- didn't want to help them. It does sadly sound like she didn't want to help this guy at that point. It sounded like she couldn't cope with it anymore to that intensity.

To be fair- I haven't read her other posts. I don't know what kind of relationship it was. How he treated her etc. I guess she could have gone on about what kind of person he was. A memorial to him. I think her feeings towards him were kind of conflicted though. That doesn't become all rosey just because someone has died.

It's clear she did care for him but she also said he was overstepping boundaries. It's kind of unfair to judge- because we don't know about them and I guess it is pretty disrespectful to surmise. Still- hopefully it's all anonymous. The way I interpret it is- they broke up. He couldn't let go and had maybe started to make a pest of himself (overstepping boundaries suggests this.) I guess it's even possible he was using emotional blackmail- if it's really over between us- I can't go on type of thing. Maybe she didn't feel able to cope with it anymore. I think she did want the best for him but I think she was tired of being made to feel so responsible for his entire life- that's the impression I got. Not to say that's his fault necessarily- or hers. Still- if she was resenting that, then the catastrophic next act of taking his life may well have made her feel even more distressed. She may not feel to blame but I suspect she has a feeling that he blamed her. I think- when we feel like someone is trying to make us feel guilty- we can feel more like the victim. Really though- both are victims in this sadly.

 

[TAW122]

Excellent point. Fact is, she's hurt more by his death than his suffering. It's not about him

He blows his brains out, alone. In contrast, she receives "so many genuinely helpful messages" sympathizing with her "anger that he would do this". Adding them to her "wonderful support system of friends and family". For more context, I looked through her posting history, but didn't see her asking for help easing HIS suffering. Just her own

Maybe it's because he was awful to her. Or maybe she was awful. Maybe both or neither

But in any case, that's why if I break up with a decent person, I should help them replace me. (Of course, I'm under no illusions that anyone'd do this for me.) Forcibly unplugging your teammate from your group mind can be excruciating. For them

If I suddenly withdraw someone's group mind, they may lose their sense of purpose, a big part of their emotion-regulation, etc. Because my goal is to provide what the universe is missing; otherwise why need me? I've studied the various arts of reducing suffering & increasing pleasure, which I proceed to apply to them; people can be drugs, and withdrawal can destroy a person

Oh yes, another thing that isn't mentioned in my thread previously was about the feedback and replies she got on her Reddit thread. It is mostly about alleviating her suffering, which I understand to some degree, but yes, there should be effort towards alleviating the sufferer's (her ex-bf) suffering too, not just for the survivors only. Additionally, yes we also don't know about all the other details from either's pov (the gf and the ex-bf).

I think suicide is a very specific kind of death. Even compared to assisted suicide. Presumably with assisted suicide and natural death from an illness- families and loved ones know it's coming. Even though assisted suicide is at that person's decision- it has been approved. Presumably the person has told their loved ones their wishes. They may well have found them hard to accept- they may have even asked them to reconsider but- they've had a chance to talk about it and prepare.

A self inflicted suicide is likely a lot more sudden and a lot more of a shock. I'm sure it feels all sorts of things- including tragic but it's also an act of defiance and rejection I suppose. Whoever we have left on this planet- we're not willing to stay for them. That's bound to hurt. The people left behind could well feel guilty that they weren't there for them enough. They may well feel abandoned too and angry that this person they cared about has left them. Maybe they feel hurt that they didn't even trust them enough or value their support to even tell them. I can see why people feel hurt.

Yes- they're only focusing on their pain but- that's all there is now. The other person is gone. Part of their pain is presumably knowing that they didn't stop the pain of the person who killed themself. That's got to be hard to deal with either way. Either they knew about it and didn't take the person seriously. Couldn't help them despite trying or- didn't want to help them. It does sadly sound like she didn't want to help this guy at that point. It sounded like she couldn't cope with it anymore to that intensity.

To be fair- I haven't read her other posts. I don't know what kind of relationship it was. How he treated her etc. I guess she could have gone on about what kind of person he was. A memorial to him. I think her feeings towards him were kind of conflicted though. That doesn't become all rosey just because someone has died.

It's clear she did care for him but she also said he was overstepping boundaries. It's kind of unfair to judge- because we don't know about them and I guess it is pretty disrespectful to surmise. Still- hopefully it's all anonymous. The way I interpret it is- they broke up. He couldn't let go and had maybe started to make a pest of himself (overstepping boundaries suggests this.) I guess it's even possible he was using emotional blackmail- if it's really over between us- I can't go on type of thing. Maybe she didn't feel able to cope with it anymore. I think she did want the best for him but I think she was tired of being made to feel so responsible for his entire life- that's the impression I got. Not to say that's his fault necessarily- or hers. Still- if she was resenting that, then the catastrophic next act of taking his life may well have made her feel even more distressed. She may not feel to blame but I suspect she has a feeling that he blamed her. I think- when we feel like someone is trying to make us feel guilty- we can feel more like the victim. Really though- both are victims in this sadly.

Very good post! Yes CTB is indeed a very specific kind of death (though afa the universe is concerned, it is still the same to a non-sentient entity, death is death - but I digress). I believe that part of the stigmatization still comes with death in general, particularly CTB, is a consequence of a prohibitive society that does not view death as a part of life as well as the religious indoctrination and woke-oppression (from secular standpoints) regarding death itself. As for assisted CTB and natural death from an illness, yes it does allow time to prepare and of course, grieve especially after a decision has been made and for the inevitable (terminal illnesses and also not necessarily foreseeable death but low quality of life). This is also one of the major reasons why I'm a staunch proponent for the right to die and such. Ironically though, the people against CTB itself are generally against legalization of assisted CTB and death with dignity even though it could solve a lot of these problems, make things less painful to bear. These pro-lifers simply can't have their cake and eat it at the same time. I do claim that I get not only baffled by their illogical mindset and reasoning, but also the fact that they don't want to solve/mitigate the issue (people CTB'ing to escape suffering - so legalize voluntary euthanasia and it'll alleviate a lot of suffering, solve lots of problems), yet they want to complain about people who DIY ctb (which is riskier, more barbaric and damaging), (this video linked here explains the problem pretty well).

 

[SexyIncél]

It's clear she did care for him but she also said he was overstepping boundaries. It's kind of unfair to judge- because we don't know about them and I guess it is pretty disrespectful to surmise. Still- hopefully it's all anonymous.

Good point! It's in the public sphere & anonymised, so it shouldn't harm Pkpaws to use it as a case study. And we don't know the real messy relationship itself, so we're only considering abstract models of their relationship. For lessons

Maybe Pkpaws was in shock & an unreliable narrator. But all that matters is the responses to her reddit post. Because we're talking about social phenomena

I guess it's even possible he was using emotional blackmail- if it's really over between us- I can't go on type of thing.

Yeah, people have used this tactic on me... and I think it's fine! They're basically saying that I generated a suffering spike that bumped them above the suicide threshold. Doesn't take much; many live close to it anyway

Once told a shrink about an ex who did this. She wore this look of shock so exaggerated that it seemed socially-programmed. But no ex of mine ended up ctb'ing. Because there were tons of ways to preempt/solve the underlying suffering

Here on sasu, sometimes we solve people's root problems. But sometimes we're unwilling to do what it takes. So they ctb

The way I interpret it is- they broke up. He couldn't let go and had maybe started to make a pest of himself (overstepping boundaries suggests this.) I guess it's even possible he was using emotional blackmail- if it's really over between us- I can't go on type of thing. Maybe she didn't feel able to cope with it anymore. I think she did want the best for him but I think she was tired of being made to feel so responsible for his entire life- that's the impression I got. Not to say that's his fault necessarily- or hers. Still- if she was resenting that, then the catastrophic next act of taking his life may well have made her feel even more distressed. She may not feel to blame but I suspect she has a feeling that he blamed her. I think- when we feel like someone is trying to make us feel guilty- we can feel more like the victim. Really though- both are victims in this sadly.

Yeah, quite possible he was being unreasonable

But it's also entirely possible Romeo was romantic in relationships — and died with a horror realization that she's pragmatic. I've seen what happens to gals' faces when they finally comprehend their bosses' natures. There's a similar horror in guys, when they realize the nature of the person in their bed

 

[Sprite_Geist]

Now keep in mind I'm not going to deny that having someone die or experiencing bereavement isn't traumatic. It is especially for the person losing someone (the survivor(s)), but the hypocrisy lies in the fact that people are often quick to dismiss and play the "nobody is entitled to anything" card when it comes to relationships, human and civil rights (excluding the right to die), and many other aspects and areas in life. Yet, when it comes to bodily autonomy regarding death, suddenly they no longer play the card and even after one is successful (not that the deceased will suffer anymore consequence as the dead have no capacity nor ability to experience the aftermath), they make it all about themselves.

Absolutely correct! There have been a few past threads that have discussed "entitlement", but it is still very good that you mentioned it in your own thread. This is something that the broader population in many societies do not think about at all when arguing against any form of assisted suicide; it is also the reason why (from a personal opinion) the whole argument of the "duty to live" breaks down completely. We really need a paradigm shift - to view assisted suicide through the same lens as any other relationship with regard to the issue of entitlement.

...So you owe me nothing? Okay I owe you nothing either, so why do you feel "entitled" to dictate whether or not I can end my own life? Relationships are not an obligation you say? So why are you trying to convince suicidal individuals that they are obligated to maintain their relationship(s) with others? This mindset is very similar to a former partner who refuses to leave; in a non-suicidal context this could be considered harassment.

I am really sorry if my post comes across as a rehash of a part of your own post, but I just really wanted to respond because you have made a point which has really struck me - not in a negative way.

 

[TAW122]

Absolutely correct! There have been a few past threads that have discussed "entitlement", but it is still very good that you mentioned it in your own thread. This is something that the broader population in many societies do not think about at all when arguing against any form of assisted suicide; it is also the reason why (from a personal opinion) the whole argument of the "duty to live" breaks down completely. We really need a paradigm shift - to view assisted suicide through the same lens as any other relationship with regard to the issue of entitlement.

...So you owe me nothing? Okay I owe you nothing either, so why do you feel "entitled" to dictate whether or not I can end my own life? Relationships are not an obligation you say? So why are you trying to convince suicidal individuals that they are obligated to maintain their relationship(s) with others? This mindset is very similar to a former partner who refuses to leave; in a non-suicidal context this could be considered harassment.

I am really sorry if my post comes across as a rehash of a part of your own post, but I just really wanted to respond because you have made a point which has really struck me - not in a negative way.

No worries, and you pretty much summed up the point pretty well.