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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

Enlightened
Oct 15, 2023
1,256
Wdym? Btw do you think that extinction would be a bad thing? And don't say anything about SkyNet "I am a bot beep boop" this time
Locally things can be depressing.
is it bad if humans go extinct? Yes, because while we are currently trashing the planet more than I would like, we are the only ones capable of transporting life off-world and also moving the earth away from the sun.
 
P

Praestat_Mori

Mori praestat, quam haec pati!
May 21, 2023
8,524
One of my worries is that humanity might undergo an anti-technology backlash and miss its chance to colonize space, which in turn would miss its chance to save the world as the sun grows warmer.
The sun is getting warmer, and only humans can save the earth from overheating. If the sun is 30% warmer now than it was in the early solar system, that means that we should be 15% farther from the sun, so we should be about 22.5 million km, or 22.5 billion m, further from the sun now than we were 4.5 billion years ago. That's just a rough calculation, but it comes out as a nice, round 5 m per year that we should be moving the earth to maintain its place in the habitable zone. So one way is humanity nudges an asteroid into an orbit near Jupiter at aphelion and the earth at perihelion the earth (that uses the equivalent of the gravitational boost that we give to spacecraft) to steal momentum from Jupiter and transfer it to earth. Of course this is a bit risky because if we screw up the orbital mechanics, then we could hit the earth, so it's a question as to whether to use one large asteroid or multiple small asteroids.
I foresee humanity colonizing the astroid belt which I've written about in more detail on this forum. Beyond that, humanity will have merged with ageless machines when it leaves the solar system.
Super volcanos cause nuclear winter.
That's sth humanity could achieve in the future. We could colonize Mars and the asteroid belt and maybe space. If we do not destroy ourselves. But then what is our source of energy after the sun became a white dwarf? Just in case we made it another 5 billion years.

Thinking that humanity will colonize the solar system and can escape the "disaster" here raises also another question: Can everyone be rescued or will only the "1%" have the chance to be rescued?

I'm absolutely not against us humans colonizing space if we find a way to do it. It's the inevitable evolution.
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

Enlightened
Oct 15, 2023
1,256
That's sth humanity could achieve in the future. We could colonize Mars and the asteroid belt and maybe space. If we do not destroy ourselves. But then what is our source of energy after the sun became a white dwarf? Just in case we made it another 5 billion years.

Thinking that humanity will colonize the solar system and can escape the "disaster" here raises also another question: Can everyone be rescued or will only the "1%" have the chance to be rescued?
Geothermal and nuclear but if you're talking about FAAAAR in the future: red dwarfs and stellar remnants trying to conserve as much energy as possible. 100 quadrillion years in the future there's only black dwarfs. Whatever our power-plants can produce. Even further?? The last energy source would be the slow decay of black holes (hawking radiation). We could power simulations of humanity and they would also be artificially slowed down to save energy. Eventually protons and neutrons will decay (this depends on the standard model) so stars and planets will disintegrate 10^36-10^38 years after that it's only blackholes. The 10^100 years is theoretical heat death. Pure darkness with assumption that protons decay. Super massive black holes will slowly decay through hawking radiation (and eventually evaporate) and push heat death to 10^109 years. The last few patches of subatomic particles will wind down to their lowest energy state.

There's also some hope, some quantum fluctuation might eventually spark a new reality into existence.

There is a chance there is some life not bound to the fate of the heat death given the time scale. There is also the implication of the existence of higher and higher universes that envelope smaller and smaller universes like a jawbreaker.

Or there could type 4 civilizations (maybe we will achieve that one day given enough time). The power of the continuum (like Star Trek's Q). The power of dark energy. Type 5 could be stealing energy from a parallel universe.
That's sth humanity could achieve in the future. We could colonize Mars and the asteroid belt and maybe space. If we do not destroy ourselves. But then what is our source of energy after the sun became a white dwarf? Just in case we made it another 5 billion years.

Thinking that humanity will colonize the solar system and can escape the "disaster" here raises also another question: Can everyone be rescued or will only the "1%" have the chance to be rescued?

I'm absolutely not against us humans colonizing space if we find a way to do it. It's the inevitable evolution.
Will it just be the 1%? 1% is a misleading term IMHO. Likely many people will die in the first stages of colonization. You asked about humanity collectively as a species surviving.

In the US 1% is under $6 million net worth. Far from the billionaire class. Thats not even making $1 million a year. So the term is a little misleading to me.

That's sth humanity could achieve in the future. We could colonize Mars and the asteroid belt and maybe space. If we do not destroy ourselves. But then what is our source of energy after the sun became a white dwarf? Just in case we made it another 5 billion years.

Thinking that humanity will colonize the solar system and can escape the "disaster" here raises also another question: Can everyone be rescued or will only the "1%" have the chance to be rescued?

I'm absolutely not against us humans colonizing space if we find a way to do it. It's the inevitable evolution.
That's sth humanity could achieve in the future. We could colonize Mars and the asteroid belt and maybe space. If we do not destroy ourselves. But then what is our source of energy after the sun became a white dwarf? Just in case we made it another 5 billion years.

Thinking that humanity will colonize the solar system and can escape the "disaster" here raises also another question: Can everyone be rescued or will only the "1%" have the chance to be rescued?

I'm absolutely not against us humans colonizing space if we find a way to do it. It's the inevitable evolution.
We will terraform insides of structures that we construct from asteroid rubble. Ceres alone could produce usable surface area roughly 2000 times bigger than Earth's surface, assuming rubble thickness that provides the same shielding as Earth's atmosphere.
I foresee colonizing the solar system although not with the Dave Dyson sphere but a bunch of free orbiting stations – cylinders with gravel walls (packed in carbon fiber sleeves) roughly 3 m thick that we would live inside. Ceres alone would provide enough gravel to build habitats with total surface area equal to 2000 times Earth's surface. The gravel walls would not spin much (just enough to distribute the heat of sunlight), and inside each thick cylinder would be an airtight thinner-walled cylinder that would spin to create artificial gravity. If we carve of the moons of Jupiter we can get over a million Earth's worth of space without even touching the planets themselves...
Or, the universe may be slowly traversable. If we were just a little more advanced than we are now, but with the same physics (just applied on a larger scale), we could cross to the nearest stars in a few tens of thousands of years. That would be quite doable for machines, or for spacecraft carrying sperm and eggs and artificial wombs, and potentially for humans in suspended animation. Or, if we solve aging, what's a few tens of thousands of years in a very long life?
Or we discover a new understanding of physics to achieve FTL capability.
 
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Homo erectus

Homo erectus

Mage
Mar 7, 2023
560
I think our type of human will be extinct very soon (maybe a selected few will survive in their present form), probably within a decade, when AI takes over. A new form of human might emerge. All the rules will be different. Our sense of good and evil will not apply anymore.
 
P

Praestat_Mori

Mori praestat, quam haec pati!
May 21, 2023
8,524
Geothermal and nuclear but if you're talking about FAAAAR in the future: red dwarfs and stellar remnants trying to conserve as much energy as possible. 100 quadrillion years in the future there's only black dwarfs. Whatever our power-plants can produce. Even further?? The last energy source would be the slow decay of black holes (hawking radiation). We could power simulations of humanity and they would also be artificially slowed down to save energy. Eventually protons and neutrons will decay (this depends on the standard model) so stars and planets will disintegrate 10^36-10^38 years after that it's only blackholes. The 10^100 years is theoretical heat death. Pure darkness with assumption that protons decay. Super massive black holes will slowly decay through hawking radiation (and eventually evaporate) and push heat death to 10^109 years. The last few patches of subatomic particles will wind down to their lowest energy state.

There's also some hope, some quantum fluctuation might eventually spark a new reality into existence.

There is a chance there is some life not bound to the fate of the heat death given the time scale. There is also the implication of the existence of higher and higher universes that envelope smaller and smaller universes like a jawbreaker.

Or there could type 4 civilizations (maybe we will achieve that one day given enough time). The power of the continuum (like Star Trek's Q). The power of dark energy. Type 5 could be stealing energy from a parallel universe.

Will it just be the 1%? 1% is a misleading term IMHO. Likely many people will die in the first stages of colonization. You asked about humanity collectively as a species surviving.

In the US 1% is under $6 million net worth. Far from the billionaire class. Thats not even making $1 million a year. So the term is a little misleading to me.



We will terraform insides of structures that we construct from asteroid rubble. Ceres alone could produce usable surface area roughly 2000 times bigger than Earth's surface, assuming rubble thickness that provides the same shielding as Earth's atmosphere.
I foresee colonizing the solar system although not with the Dave Dyson sphere but a bunch of free orbiting stations – cylinders with gravel walls (packed in carbon fiber sleeves) roughly 3 m thick that we would live inside. Ceres alone would provide enough gravel to build habitats with total surface area equal to 2000 times Earth's surface. The gravel walls would not spin much (just enough to distribute the heat of sunlight), and inside each thick cylinder would be an airtight thinner-walled cylinder that would spin to create artificial gravity. If we carve of the moons of Jupiter we can get over a million Earth's worth of space without even touching the planets themselves...
Or, the universe may be slowly traversable. If we were just a little more advanced than we are now, but with the same physics (just applied on a larger scale), we could cross to the nearest stars in a few tens of thousands of years. That would be quite doable for machines, or for spacecraft carrying sperm and eggs and artificial wombs, and potentially for humans in suspended animation. Or, if we solve aging, what's a few tens of thousands of years in a very long life?
Or we discover a new understanding of physics to achieve FTL capability.
This is so interesting. I liked to read about such stuff a lot in the past. Thx for sharing your thoughts.
 
sserafim

sserafim

消えたい
Sep 13, 2023
7,399
I think our type of human will be extinct very soon (maybe a selected few will survive in their present form), probably within a decade, when AI takes over. A new form of human might emerge. All the rules will be different. Our sense of good and evil will not apply anymore.
Wdym?
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

Enlightened
Oct 15, 2023
1,256
That's sth humanity could achieve in the future. We could colonize Mars and the asteroid belt and maybe space. If we do not destroy ourselves. But then what is our source of energy after the sun became a white dwarf? Just in case we made it another 5 billion years.

Thinking that humanity will colonize the solar system and can escape the "disaster" here raises also another question: Can everyone be rescued or will only the "1%" have the chance to be rescued?

I'm absolutely not against us humans colonizing space if we find a way to do it. It's the inevitable evolution.
For the iron stars - do protons decay after 10 duodecillion years leaving nothing but photons and leptons? Scientists don't yet know if protons decay or not and the standard model doesn't suggest that they should ever become unstable and decay. The short answer of why particles decay is become everything in the universe tends to a more stable state and you're more stable when you have less potential energy to spend. If you rip a neutron from a nucleus after approximately 15 minutes it will decay into a proton and emit and electron. Protons are lighter than neutrons so they have less energy and thus are more stable. Both are baryons so after the decay the type of particle remains unchanged, it's only the energy that decreases. But there's no other types of baryons that protons can decay into since it's the lightest of them so it's the most stable form.
The "degenerate era" 10^65 years after the Big Bang. All matter will slowly decay into iron. Iron has the lowest energy level out of all elements because it has the most tightly bound nuclei. Any element that is heavier than iron like copper, gold or plutonium will decay over time by nuclear fission into iron. Te (tellurium) has the longest half life which will decay in 10^24 years. Which is 160 trillion times longer than the age of the universe. Lighter elements like Li, He, C will take much longer to transform into iron through cold fusion. Thermonuclear fusion happens inside the core of stars (nuclei are so close together that the nuclear force surpasses the repulsive electromagnetic force and eventually sticks them together releases a lot of energy and creating heavier elements in the process) cold fusion occurs under any temperature and pressure. At cold temperatures nuclei are so far apart from each other that only quantum tunneling would make them pass through the electromagnetic force barrier. The denser the force barrier is the less likely the particle is to tunnel through it. The chance of this happening is incredibly small but not equal to zero. It is estimated that all matter will fuse into iron through cold fusion and quantum tunneling after 10^3200 years. All these iron atoms will come together in clumps to make iron stars. During this process it is thought that some black dwarfs will explode into supernovas after 10^1100 years because of the accumulating iron. Even though nee elements will arise from nuclear fusion during the explosions, they will transform into iron relatively fast. The iron stars will very slowly collapse into blackholes whether through gravity or quantity tunneling. And this process will take 10^10^76 years. Thats like writing a zero for each atom in the universe. Eventually these blackholes will evaporate through Hawking radiation in approximately 10^108 years at the most. What happens next is very speculative because we don't know what the role of dark energy is in all this. But everything left after the death of the blackholes are just photons and leptons like electrons and positrons flying around for almost eternity until a new Big Bang in about 10^10^10^76 years if we're looking at the probability of quantum fluctuations.
This is so interesting. I liked to read about such stuff a lot in the past. Thx for sharing your thoughts.
Also depends on the feasibility of cold fusion. My friend might have a way to test it…
 

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Homo erectus

Homo erectus

Mage
Mar 7, 2023
560
I think AI and other technology, such as genetic engineering, will make learning, working and reproduction meaningless. The current world, its values and rules, are mostly based on a work mentality and an objective to regulate reproduction. Many laws are directly or indirectly related to who can copulate with whom, who can inherit what, race, gender, etc. I think the current workaholic human form is definitely going to be extinct.

A major war between major powers may break out this year for various reason. This is another good chance that humanity will be erased. Either way, this round of human flourishing is doomed.
 
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sserafim

sserafim

消えたい
Sep 13, 2023
7,399
I think AI and other technology, such as genetic engineering, will make learning, working and reproduction meaningless. The current world, its values and rules, are mostly based on a work mentality and an objective to regulate reproduction. Many laws are directly or indirectly related to who can copulate with whom, who can inherit what, race, gender, etc. I think the current workaholic human form is definitely going to be extinct.

A major war between major powers may break out this year for various reason. This is another good chance that humanity will be erased. Either way, this round of human flourishing is doomed.
Last summer, in China, I heard from this guy who studied traditional Chinese medicine that the Yi Jing said that 2024 will have fire
 
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Lost in a Dream

Lost in a Dream

He/him - Metal head
Feb 22, 2020
1,687
Locally things can be depressing.
is it bad if humans go extinct? Yes, because while we are currently trashing the planet more than I would like, we are the only ones capable of transporting life off-world and also moving the earth away from the sun.
Considering the fact that humans have trashed the planet, it's obvious that if we managed to colonize other planets like Earth, the same thing would happen there. Humans have no right to infest other planets and ruin them like we did with this one. If the Earth is gonna get destroyed, it's best if we just go overboard or go down with the ship.
 
DarkRange55

DarkRange55

Enlightened
Oct 15, 2023
1,256
Considering the fact that humans have trashed the planet, it's obvious that if we managed to colonize other planets like Earth, the same thing would happen there. Humans have no right to infest other planets and ruin them like we did with this one. If the Earth is gonna get destroyed, it's best if we just go overboard or go down with the ship.
I think we will have space stations as I detailed above but also our technology improves so will our conversation and resource management.

 
sserafim

sserafim

消えたい
Sep 13, 2023
7,399
Considering the fact that humans have trashed the planet, it's obvious that if we managed to colonize other planets like Earth, the same thing would happen there. Humans have no right to infest other planets and ruin them like we did with this one. If the Earth is gonna get destroyed, it's best if we just go overboard or go down with the ship.
I agree. I would hate to see humanity destroy yet another planet
 
Homo erectus

Homo erectus

Mage
Mar 7, 2023
560
Last summer, in China, I heard from this dude who studied traditional Chinese medicine that the Yi Jing said that 2024 will have fire
I don't know much about Yi Jing, but recently some dude said "The next China is still China." That sounds creepy. I googled it for the source. It has been attributed to the Chairman of China, its foreign minister, or some investment bankers. Anyway, there isn't much average people can do. Places like New Zealand, Argentina, and South America in general, seem to be likely refuge if people can go there.
 
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sserafim

sserafim

消えたい
Sep 13, 2023
7,399
I don't know much about Yi Jing, but recently some dude said "The next China is still China." That sounds creepy. I googled it for the source. It has been attributed to the Chairman of China, its foreign minister, or some investment bankers. Anyway, there isn't much average people can do. Places like New Zealand, Argentina, and South America in general, seem to be likely refuge if people can go there.
What does that mean?
 
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Adûnâi

Adûnâi

Little Russian in-cel
Apr 25, 2020
828
One of my worries is that humanity might undergo an anti-technology backlash and miss its chance to colonize space, which in turn would miss its chance to save the world as the sun grows warmer.
"Save the world"? What is that even supposed to mean lmao? Save what, rocks? Infusoriae? Feces?

So one way is humanity nudges an asteroid into an orbit near Jupiter at aphelion and the earth at perihelion the earth
A much more sensible solution would be to drain the Sun of its Hydrogen lmao via star lifting.

Beyond that, humanity will have merged with ageless machines when it leaves the solar system.
Regarding the latter point - I'm not sure that's feasible because enforcing submission with enough light lag would be difficult. And without enforcing submission, all such a civilisation would be doing is breed potential enemies. That's my argument for remaining in a single solar system - or a few dozen at most.

I see people say "humanity is resilient, it always survives." However, would extinction necessarily be a bad thing? What are your thoughts on this?
Any ideology that doubts its right to exist will go extinct, so there's your answer. There is nothing beyond reality. We don't give a shit about Zeus because Zeus got cucked by Yeshua. And if you lose the war, everyone will spit on you and forget you.

David Shapiro considers human extinction a neutral outcome in case of AI singularity because a negative one would be human suffering.
 
DarkRange55

DarkRange55

Enlightened
Oct 15, 2023
1,256
"Save the world"? What is that even supposed to mean lmao? Save what, rocks? Infusoriae? Feces?


A much more sensible solution would be to drain the Sun of its Hydrogen lmao via star lifting.


Regarding the latter point - I'm not sure that's feasible because enforcing submission with enough light lag would be difficult. And without enforcing submission, all such a civilisation would be doing is breed potential enemies. That's my argument for remaining in a single solar system - or a few dozen at most.


Any ideology that doubts its right to exist will go extinct, so there's your answer. There is nothing beyond reality. We don't give a shit about Zeus because Zeus got cucked by Yeshua. And if you lose the war, everyone will spit on you and forget you.

David Shapiro considers human extinction a neutral outcome in case of AI singularity because a negative one would be human suffering.
Star lifting is much further out but also a possibility. Moving the earth is more feasible with current technology.

Saving our home world…
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

Enlightened
Oct 15, 2023
1,256
"Save the world"? What is that even supposed to mean lmao? Save what, rocks? Infusoriae? Feces?


A much more sensible solution would be to drain the Sun of its Hydrogen lmao via star lifting.


Regarding the latter point - I'm not sure that's feasible because enforcing submission with enough light lag would be difficult. And without enforcing submission, all such a civilisation would be doing is breed potential enemies. That's my argument for remaining in a single solar system - or a few dozen at most.


Any ideology that doubts its right to exist will go extinct, so there's your answer. There is nothing beyond reality. We don't give a shit about Zeus because Zeus got cucked by Yeshua. And if you lose the war, everyone will spit on you and forget you.

David Shapiro considers human extinction a neutral outcome in case of AI singularity because a negative one would be human suffering.
"Save the world"? What is that even supposed to mean lmao? Save what, rocks? Infusoriae? Feces?


A much more sensible solution would be to drain the Sun of its Hydrogen lmao via star lifting.


Regarding the latter point - I'm not sure that's feasible because enforcing submission with enough light lag would be difficult. And without enforcing submission, all such a civilisation would be doing is breed potential enemies. That's my argument for remaining in a single solar system - or a few dozen at most.


Any ideology that doubts its right to exist will go extinct, so there's your answer. There is nothing beyond reality. We don't give a shit about Zeus because Zeus got cucked by Yeshua. And if you lose the war, everyone will spit on you and forget you.

David Shapiro considers human extinction a neutral outcome in case of AI singularity because a negative one would be human suffering..
Comparing the two, star lifting would likely be more complex and challenging due to the sheer scale and energy involved, whereas moving the Earth with gravitational assists from asteroids would require precision and patience but might be more feasible with current technological understanding.
 
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Mirrory Me

Mirrory Me

Life is a mirror, but "whose" mirror?
Mar 23, 2023
535
I would rather hope that humanity would develop and living conditions would stabilize globally, so that future generations could always live in a better world.
 
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DarkRange55

DarkRange55

Enlightened
Oct 15, 2023
1,256
Do you think China will overtake the US?
China is the second largest economy in the world, its an emerging superpower and the United States is threatened by China. Otherwise it wouldn't be such a kerfuffle. Their economy, at least historically, has been growing faster than the United States and its entirely possible that it could continue to do so into the future. 1.4 billion people. The Soviet Union competed with the United States with a fraction of the population and a fraction of the economy. China is even in proximity to a huge part of the global population. They basically dominate Asia. Obviously the United States has its little alliances with Japan and Australia counter balancing the Chinese in that respect. But they're a big player in Asia. The most populace region and country in the world.
I mean China doesn't need to invade the United States. They just wanna control their region and they want access to Europe and Africa. I mean basically we kind of have them like pinned in on the water because you have the Philippines, Taiwan and Japan (possibly Vietnam) are all our allies so its like a ring around China. So we could really interrupt their sea lanes. And they get a lot of their oil obviously from the middle east and they have to ship it and there's a lot of narrow straights we could cut off. But once they develop that belt and road initiative they're like connected to Europe and Africa through pipelines and roads and stuff. I mean China doesn't have to spend as much as the US. They can't invade us. They should be able to control their area around China to free up their sea lanes. They don't need to conquer the United States to defeat us.

China is a rising power. It's unclear whether it'll actually become a superpower in the short or medium term, or whether it'll stagnate like Japan did in the 1990s. Regardless, China is a nuclear weapons state, a P5 member, it's experiencing a booming economy (though slowing as of late), and has a massive labor force and incredible natural resources.
 
Adûnâi

Adûnâi

Little Russian in-cel
Apr 25, 2020
828
Do you think China will overtake the US?
Of course, because America is becoming Brazil 2.0, an idiotic, hysterical, compassionate nation of drug-addicts and school-shooters.

China is the second largest economy in the world, its an emerging superpower and the United States is threatened by China.
China has been created by the dumb American élites who could not foresee such an obvious development.

They basically dominate Asia.
China is a landlocked nation that cannot dominate anything, it's surrounded by a range of enemies, all sponsored by America (Vietnam, Pinoy, Korea/JP, India). The only avenue for Chinese expansion is Kazakhstan, but the geography is still awkward.

all our allies so its like a ring around China. So we could really interrupt their sea lanes.
...Exactly! China only exists because the American élites are brain-damaged and sabotage their own power, their own money bags. It's pathetic, really. China should have been blockaded in the 1990s immediately after Russia's collapse.
 
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Dr Iron Arc

Dr Iron Arc

Into the Unknown
Feb 10, 2020
18,957
Why? I want my bloodline to go extinct.
Lizard brain, monkey brain, however one wants to call the same base instincts that make me crave physical intimacy and to put my pickle in a pickle jar. I guess there's things I could do to remove these urges like getting on antidepressants but the funny part about these instincts is that they're guiding me to not opt for that.

What do you think will come after us?
Squids/Octopi.

1710356337828
While the ability to operate tools and act communally reflects an intelligence ideally suited to life in the Northern Forest, it may be that a changing environment will encourage the development of even greater sophistication. Perhaps a reasoning type of intelligence will evolve once again.
 
Proteus

Proteus

Oceanic Member
Feb 6, 2024
300
@DarkRange55 The sun is the least of our problems. Celestial bodies get further away from each other every year. Said expansion also causes spread of energy. With no signs of FTL travel, we eventually won't have any heat source when ours inevitably stop. Doesn't matter how much star-lifting you do around that. Sure, it's an extremely long time until that, but what could be done?

Another thing that I don't get is how could you get the energy to do that. We are talking about moving or creating multi-million tonnes objects, or worse, creating sources for said huge surfaces, assuming we can't colonize. Where do you get that? Are those amounts practically manageable? Sure, all the energy is there, but then, you need to use it.
 

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