Discussion Do you think circumcision is child abuse?

[Old]

Do you think circumcision is child abuse?

 

[dolemitedrums]

I think it would be if it weren't so established culturally. I mean in the abstract it's an absolutely bizarre thing to do to a kid. But that said...whatever, it's really not that big a deal in the real world.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

I don't know if I would consider it to be child abuse but I do consider it to be wrong since babies cannot consent to be circumcised. I also hold this view when it comes to people getting their baby's ears pierced.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

No. It's much more hygenic for the man over their lifetime. It looks better, too.

 

[Dr. Finklestein]

It's very hygienic. I have a stepbro who wasn't, that dude had UTI's all the time. Dick Cheese

Like something outta the gorilla cage too.

 

[sugarb]

Do you think circumcision is child abuse?

The number of babies who die or are injured due to circumcision in the US is above zero. A quick google says 100-200 die every year in the US from complications.

I don't think it's ethical to force a potentially harmful procedure on infants when the benefits (lower risk of STI + not having to clean) by and large aren't worth putting a baby's well being at stake.

They can choose to be circumcised later on if they want a lower risk of STIs. After all, they aren't (or shouldn't) even be needing that until they're 18. As for hygiene- millions (if not billions) of men worldwide live perfectly happy, healthy lives with their foreskins. The solution is cleaning, not infant genital mutilation.

I'd be in support of circumcision being restricted.

 

[divinemistress36]

Most men dont properly clean their penises and its even worse when they arent circumcised and they get infections more and it smells

 

[enduringwinter]

its even worse when they arent circumcised and they get infections more

Idk how it works but tend to agree.

Spoiler: TMI

I dated uncircumcised men twice and both gave me UTI.

 

[sugarb]

Most men dont properly clean their penises and its even worse when they arent circumcised and they get infections more and it smells

Imo the solution to that is teaching youngsters how to properly clean their junk and avoid infection, not performing potentially harmful genital surgery on infants.

 

[chester]

If someone was circumcised as a baby, they have no comparison, so they think everything is fine. It doesn't take a lot of googling to find that a LOT of nerve endings and estrogen receptors are on the prepuce. I've read and watched guys describing how their lives changed since they were circumcised as adults. Many of them describe it being like having sex in 20 condoms at once. A lot of them were depressed, there was even a case of CTB because of that.

So I guess it's more of a philosophical question at this point: if we deprive someone of ever experiencing something, but they don't know what they're deprived of because they'll never know what it's like, is it still bad? I would say so. And the hygiene issues, well... Should you also permanently remove your fingernails if you've got dirt or fungus under them?

 

[sugarb]

If someone was circumcised as a baby, they have no comparison, so they think everything is fine. It doesn't take a lot of googling to find that a LOT of nerve endings and estrogen receptors are on the prepuce. I've read and watched guys describing how their lives changed since they were circumcised as adults. Many of them describe it being like having sex in 20 condoms at once. A lot of them were depressed, there was even a case of CTB because of that.

So I guess it's more of a philosophical question at this point: if we deprive someone of ever experiencing something, but they don't know what they're deprived of because they'll never know what it's like, is it still bad? I would say so. And the hygiene issues, well... Should you also permanently remove your fingernails if you've got dirt or fungus under them?

Yea lol like- Would I be hedonistic enough to live if the doctors had left my willy unclipped? I'll never know

 

[landslide2]

This might belong in OffTopic.

 

[GuessWhosBack]

Yes it is abuse. Just shower regularly, hygiene problem solved.

It requires maybe a few seconds of effort to clean a penis correctly.

 

[enduringwinter]

Yea lol like- Would I be hedonistic enough to live if the doctors had left my willy unclipped? I'll never know

Even if and this is a huge if this is true it does not even affect you a fraction as much as, say, being shortsighted does so if that's enough to make you change your mind about whether you want to die or live then respectfully your problem lies elsewhere.

Agree that solution is to enforce the habit of cleaning tho.

 

[sugarb]

Even if and this is a huge if this is true it does not even affect you a fraction as much as, say, being shortsighted does so if that's enough to make you change your mind about whether you want to die or live then respectfully your problem lies elsewhere.

Agree that solution is to enforce the habit of cleaning tho.

I'm shortsighted, and it has near zero effect on my life. I just wear glasses, don't even notice them on my face.

If circumcision actually makes sex feel like "wearing 20 condoms" as chester's anecdote suggests regaining that sensitivity would impact me a lot more than getting 20/20 vision.

A significant factor in my CTB is that I don't enjoy being alive very much. Getting more pleasure out of sexual activity- a direct increase in the amount of dopamine I generally receive- would make me enjoy one aspect of life more. I'd probably still recognize that it's ultimately meaningless and get bored of it, but as I said- who knows, maybe I'd live purely for hedonism.

I don't know why you're questioning my CTB motives over a throwaway comment but hopefully that explains it ig

 

[UnluckyYogi]

I got circumcised at the age of 8 days old.
It was done to me as a part of a religious ceremony and I had nothing to say for that matter, I couldn't say anything actually.
In my opinion, it is stupidity, cutting a part of your body without your consent.
God created a foreskin for man for a reason.

 

[tunnelV]

No, only because in comparison to other examples of child abuse cases being much worse. Babies don't remember the pain. In Africa the average age can be anywhere between 13 to 20 years old. Although I don't think it's necessary, it seems related to traditions more than anything in the countries that do it.


The past 6 years or so, I've heard men in the USA(online) being upset that their parents had it done when they were newborns. In all fairness the doctors recommend it and most parents will listen and believe they're doing what's best for the babies health and wellness.

The argument for adult males(online) is that they probably don't have as much feeling there, as well as it's mutilation. That seems to be an online Simi redpill topic. According to self reported surveys most men in the USA are happy they are circumcised.

I've even heard of some men doing it as adults by their own choice. That's because most American women see the circumcised penis as normal. Additionally supposedly circumcised ones look larger by appearance. Gay males seem most upset that they're circumcised due to uncircumcised being a big fetish among gay males.

My husband is from Europe and is not circumcised. His mom said she didn't have it done because "we're not Jewish"

It's not child abuse because 99% of the time it was medically recommended by a doctor for the babies well being. A small operation done by professionals at a hospital.

It's completely seen as normal in our society and beneficial. While actual child abuse is not medically recommended or normal.

Misinformed parents maybe, Misinformed doctors maybe. Both very common. I'm not comfortable putting a child being circumcised in the same category as one who's beaten and thrown into a cage or starved. It seems too dramatic to call it child abuse. Especially because you can live a fully normal life, it still works and most of your peers have the same ones.


I get the not having a choice as a baby and not being able to ever get it back. Missing it seems like a delusion, you wouldn't know if you were missing anything by not having it in reality. Mine as well not even had been born with it at all. Haven't had it since you gained consciousness.

I'm glad I'm not a male. I mean all of the worrying about penis this penis that. Size, shape, width, circumcised uncircumcised on and on. It sounds so stressful.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I was circumcised and it literally doesn't even bother me in the slightest. I don't remember the pain at all and I'm grateful I never had to deal with cleaning the foreskin or anything or it getting caught in a pants zipper like I'm sure it would have for me. I've never actually had sex but that's got nothing to do with my being circumcised. If being circumcised nerfed my sexual pleasure then I shudder to imagine how much more horny and sex-crazy I would have been throughout my life if I hadn't been.

I don't liken it to child abuse because it feels like the actual child abuse I've suffered seems to be way more impactful to my current circumstances than the state of my penis does.

 

[HarryCobean]

Well yes, of course it is. And the fact that people just blithely accept this evil is yet another argument in favour of not living in this shithole of a world. Not like I needed any more of those.

 

[GuessWhosBack]

No, only because in comparison to other examples of child abuse cases being much worse. Babies don't remember the pain. In Africa the average age can be anywhere between 13 to 20 years old. Although I don't think it's necessary, it seems related to traditions more than anything in the countries that do it.


The past 6 years or so, I've heard men in the USA(online) being upset that their parents had it done when they were newborns. In all fairness the doctors recommend it and most parents will listen and believe they're doing what's best for the babies health and wellness.

The argument for adult males(online) is that they probably don't have as much feeling there, as well as it's mutilation. That seems to be an online Simi redpill topic. According to self reported surveys most men in the USA are happy they are circumcised.

I've even heard of some men doing it as adults by their own choice. That's because most American women see the circumcised penis as normal. Additionally supposedly circumcised ones look larger by appearance. Gay males seem most upset that they're circumcised due to uncircumcised being a big fetish among gay males.

My husband is from Europe and is not circumcised. His mom said she didn't have it done because "we're not Jewish"

It's not child abuse because 99% of the time it was medically recommended by a doctor for the babies well being. A small operation done by professionals at a hospital.

It's completely seen as normal in our society and beneficial. While actual child abuse is not medically recommended or normal.

Misinformed parents maybe, Misinformed doctors maybe. Both very common. I'm not comfortable putting a child being circumcised in the same category as one who's beaten and thrown into a cage or starved. It seems too dramatic to call it child abuse. Especially because you can live a fully normal life, it still works and most of your peers have the same ones.


I get the not having a choice as a baby and not being able to ever get it back. Missing it seems like a delusion, you wouldn't know if you were missing anything by not having it in reality.

I'm glad I'm not a male. I mean all of the worrying about penis this penis that. Size, shape, width, circumcised uncircumcised on and on.

I don't think that OP, or anyone for that matter, was referring to medically required circumcision. There's levels to abuse, and I don't think anyone is suggesting circumcision is The Worst Thing Ever.

The opinions of men circumcised at birth should be understood with nuance. They have no reference to what being uncircumcised is like, as you correctly suggested. Good doctors always recommend something when they have good grounds to believe that the benefits will outweigh the negatives. I have never heard of doctors recommending circumcision unless it is due to certain medical concerns, such as phimosis. There's a big difference between "doctors recommending it", and "doctors recommending it because of medical concerns". No sane doctor recommends circumcision for no reason out of the blue over morning coffee with parents.

If a medical procedure is carried out for cultural or religious reasons with disregard to possible complications then it would be objectively abuse. With that being said, adults seeking circumcision out of their own free will does not logically entail anything about the morality of circumcising an unconsenting baby. Plenty of men and women seek out genital mutilation for fun.

 

[enduringwinter]

Everybody is so sheltered nowadays that they'll just redefine whatever term they think sounds the most nuclear to attach to things they dislike.

 

[tunnelV]

I don't think that OP, or anyone for that matter, was referring to medically required circumcision. There's levels to abuse, and I don't think anyone is suggesting circumcision is The Worst Thing Ever.

The opinions of men circumcised at birth should be understood with nuance. They have no reference to what being uncircumcised is like, as you correctly suggested. Good doctors always recommend something when they have good grounds to believe that the benefits will outweigh the negatives. I have never heard of doctors recommending circumcision unless it is due to certain medical concerns, such as phimosis. There's a big difference between "doctors recommending it", and "doctors recommending it because of medical concerns". No sane doctor recommends circumcision for no reason out of the blue over morning coffee with parents.

If a medical procedure is carried out for cultural or religious reasons with disregard to possible complications then it would be objectively abuse. With that being said, adults seeking circumcision out of their own free will does not logically entail anything about the morality of circumcising an unconsenting baby. Plenty of men and women seek out genital mutilation for fun.

How do you assume to know what type of circumcision they're speaking about. It's a question about circumcision, it doesn't state what type, which country nor context. So you thinking "I don't think the OP or anyone for that matter is talking about medical circumcision" you based that on the question being "do you think circumcision is child abuse?" question?

Medical or medical religious traditional circumcision seems to be what everyone on this thread is speaking about besides you.

You said you think it's child abuse, then give advice about hygiene which won't be useful to most American men seeing as they're already circumcised. Then let us all know how it takes a few seconds to clean a penis correctly

You're replying to me as if you're correcting my opinion, you can't correct an opinion. You seem bothered that I disagreed with it being child abuse. I still do even with your reply. Even in your original reply you mentioned penises nothing about female circumcising. Only now when it comes time for the disagreement. Probably because male circumcision isn't the harmful one, only female circumcising is the harmful one.

Male circumcision isn't child abuse it's tradition. Even in other cultures its about "becoming" a man. Female circumcision on the other hand is about control. Please do more research on this subject in multiple cultures. You can't seriously compare the two. You can't put them in the same category simply because they are under the same name. It's called FGM for a reason.


There is more to whine about then parents medically circumcising their baby. Who turns into an adult and has a functioning penis. Like I said I personally will not categorize a medical circumcising in the west(where I live where I'm from) as "child abuse" one is done with care and concern, the other is done for sadistic reasons. That sets them worlds apart. Many mothers circumcised their sons here because they find uncircumcised ones disgusting and they don't want their sons to have to deal the stereotypes of uncircumcised ones as an adult( sounds like care and concern not child abuse) and usually the father backs up that choice seeing as they're also circumcised and every male they see in the locker room is as well.

I just wonder what type of easy life someone has had for them to be able to think of that as child abuse.

Someone else here mentioned the fatality rates of circumcision deaths in the USA. They conveniently left out that hygiene requirements weren't being followed correctly. Can't trust someone who cherry picks studies and leaves out such an important detail just so their opinion can be the "right one" this is like me saying circumcision is okay because everyone I've met who's circumcised is alive. It would be just as ridiculous as leaving out negligence made by medical staff and a bacteria infection. It's not the circumcision itself rather the careless of the staff being clean and babies being prone to infections, or the parents not properly cleaning their child in its diaper after said surgery.

The whole "babies can't consent" thing. Yeah, because they can't think or speak which is why their parents have legal rights to make medical decisions for them. That's one decision most parents make in the USA over and over and it's not done to abuse their newborn duh. No normal person would sit here and pretend that parents who get this done in a hospital did it with the intent of abusing their newborn. Trying to make it out to be a child abuse case. Reminds me of those people who desperately want to have experienced trauma to gain attention from others. So they've had it so easy that it turns out their biggest trauma is a common medical procedure that they don't remember and that didn't affect them.

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

I saw a couple documentaries about circumcision that were horrible. I've also read stories from people with botched circumcisions and many of them want to ctb.

The history of non-religious circumcision in the west is laughable. One of the selling points was stopping masturbation. The "cleanliness" argument only applies to the unhygienic.

The "looks better" argument brings up the question on non-consensual plastic surgery done on infant minors.

I believe the medical type of circumcision takes off a lot more than what was intended in the religious practice.

Another problem is that parents and more so single mother's aren't educated enough. Oftentimes the mother is ambushed into making the decision when she's vulnerable after giving birth and at the mercy of the doctors.

I think Australia has become more strict about limiting male circumcision.

 

[GuessWhosBack]

How do you assume to know what type of circumcision they're speaking about. It's a question about circumcision, it doesn't state what type, which country nor context. So you thinking "I don't think the OP or anyone for that matter is talking about medical circumcision" you based that on the question being "do you think circumcision is child abuse?" question?

Because if it's medically necessary then by definition it's not abuse, and no one would ask such a question where the context is of medical necessity.

Medical or medical religious traditional circumcision seems to be what everyone on this thread is speaking about besides you.

I disagree. It's either medical, or religious. If it's both, it's just medical, and the religious motivations are then irrelevant, aren't they? I think you're missing nuanced context that is always carried in such conversations, that does not need to be declared a priori. People do not converse like this in real life. No one walks up to someone and goes "Oh by the way, before we talk about topic X, Y, Z, let us make sure we agree on the colloquial definitions of the terms we're about to use, and let's also agree ...". It doesn't work like that.

You said you think it's child abuse, then give advice about hygiene which won't be useful to most American men seeing as they're already circumcised. Then let us all know how it takes a few seconds to clean a penis correctly

Well yes - the point was that the claim that it's done for hygenic reasons is moot, because if you can't regularly keep a penis clean in the 21st century, then you have bigger problems.

You're replying to me as if you're correcting my opinion, you can't correct an opinion. You seem bothered that I disagreed with it being child abuse. I still do even with your reply. Even in your original reply you mentioned penises nothing about female circumcising. Only now when it comes time for the disagreement. Probably because male circumcision isn't the harmful one, only female circumcising is the harmful one.

I actually fully believe both are harmful and abuse, please never assume my position on any topic ever again, thank you. This is too common, and it's childish. If you wish to know my opinions just ask.

That being said, no. You can correct an opinion. Not all opinions are of equal worth. Some opinions are harmless and/or subjective. Some are not, and if you made it to adulthood I am sure you can find many examples yourself for why your opening sentence above is plain false. Regardless, let's please keep things into context. Thank goodness we can correct opinions.

Male circumcision isn't child abuse it's tradition. Even in other cultures its about "becoming" a man. Female circumcision on the other hand is about control. Please do more research on this subject in multiple cultures. You can't seriously compare the two. You can't put them in the same category simply because they are under the same name. It's called FGM for a reason.

I agree that the two are not comparable, and objectively FGM is leagues worse. No one brought into this discussion the mutilation of female genitalia. But it was heavily implied that the topic was unneedeed male circumcision. No one goes around asking if heart surgery is abuse because the implication is that it is necessary. By far and large, male circumcision is often not necessary.

There is more to whine about then parents medically circumcising their baby. Who turns into an adult and has a functioning penis. Like I said I personally will not categorize a medical circumcising in the west(where I live where I'm from) as "child abuse" one is done with care and concern, the other is done for sadistic reasons. That sets them worlds apart. Many mothers circumcised their sons here because they find uncircumcised ones disgusting and they don't want their sons to have to deal the stereotypes of uncircumcised ones as an adult( sounds like care and concern not child abuse) and usually the father backs up that choice seeing as they're also circumcised and every male they see in the locker room is as well.

Yes in the grand scheme of things cosmetic circumcision is the least of my concerns too - but it's the topic of this conversation so people are bound to talk about it and discuss their opinions. The cosmetic opinions of anyone leading to the circumcision of their unconsenting sons, is in my opinion, abuse. That's about it really. Yes, cultural contexts matter. Yes, the child may be coerced into perceiving it as not abuse. It's still abuse.

I'll play your own card against you - is rape not abuse in a culture were rape is the norm, where people are raised to think of rape as okay? Of course it is abuse. It is objectively abuse, the people in such a hypothetical society might disagree, but I'd still consider it abuse. Even if the victims think it's not abuse I would still consider it abuse.

I just wonder what type of easy life someone has had for them to be able to think of that as child abuse.

People with sufficient empathy and emotional intelligence can put themselves in other people's shoes and to some degree, understand how certain things may affect certain people differently. This ability is apparently not part of your lived experience and that's ok.

The whole "babies can't consent" thing. Yeah, because they can't think or speak which is why their parents have legal rights to make medical decisions for them. That's one decision most parents make in the USA over and over and it's not done to abuse their newborn duh. No normal person would sit here and pretend that parents who get this done in a hospital did it with the intent of abusing their newborn. Trying to make it out to be a child abuse case. Reminds me of those people who desperately want to have experienced trauma to gain attention from others. So they've had it so easy that it turns out their biggest trauma is a common medical procedure that they don't remember and that didn't affect them.

I am specifically speaking about cosmetic decisions, not medical decisions, and I have made that crystal clear in my previous reply.

In any case, we can agree to disagree.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

In the name of god he orders that in certain religions circumcision is obligatory. Why did he create a foreskin if it is obligatory to cut if off (and certainly the child feels pain!) ?!

I think it's child abuse bc babies and children cannot say whether they agree or not.

If an adult decides to mutilate their genitals it's ok if they can make their own decision.

However, from a medical POV it can be necessary to have this surgery.

 

[Terios]

As someone who used to be part of a religious community, I had no say in it, and in my opinion if there's no medical reason for it then it absolutely is abuse.

 

[MyTimeIsUp]

Yes, because it IS child abuse.

No. It's much more hygenic for the man over their lifetime. It looks better, too.

It is more hygienic if you don't wash properly. It isn't difficult to wash yourself. Educate young boys to wash properly. Simple

As a woman, I prefer the look and feel of a man with foreskin, cannot stand a circumcised penis, massive turn OFF. 100% would prefer all men to have foreskin, unless they need a circumcision for medical reasons.

No reason to be cutting babies. Vile.

 

[Ironborn]

Absolutely, it is unnecessary, I think the whole hygiene argument is redundant when hot water and soap exists.
Like others have said it can cause a loss of feelings which can make sex difficult, lubrication is needed more for men who are circumcised.
As with any medical procedure there is a chance of something going wrong, so why risk it?
It is a choice forced on you when you are only a few days old and I don't like that.
If you want to get it done when you are older, fair play, but at least you have the choice then.

 

[lifeneedssavepoints]

Well...i'd say it's a form of abuse if the child can't consent to it. And weirdly, i find myself here indirectly because of my own circumcision that was done when i was 3.

One of the things that can happen in a circumcision is that the surgeon removes too much skin. It's quite common, and apparently what happened to me. As you grow up and things develop, the body adapts to this...it recruits the skin from your surrounding pubis instead. Which is fine, apart from...well, that's hair-bearing skin. It's not really supposed to be there.

That's what happened to me. And i started getting ingrowns too...nasty place to be getting ingrowns tbh. So in my late 30's (having had enough of dealing with that) I went to a dermatology clinic looking for advice. "Laser hair removal" apparently..."totally safe"...yeah...

...apart from the burns...burns that linger far more than a regular burn does. The scarring. The chronic inflammation. The jangled nerves. The constant sense of discomfort, like my feet are on fire. Suddenly everything in life that I took for granted became a chore. Walking is uncomfortable. Sex, masturbation...even having an erection...all painful. I can't date anymore. I can't even wear jeans anymore. I used to look forward to what life had to bring. Now i go to sleep every night hoping that i don't wake up. Or that i DO WAKE UP to discover that the last 18 months were just a nightmare.

So...yeah...fuck circumcision. It's weird how i went 35 years after the surgery until it found an indirect way to fuck my life. But...here i am.

 

[Old]

Well...i'd say it's a form of abuse if the child can't consent to it. And weirdly, i find myself here indirectly because of my own circumcision that was done when i was 3.

One of the things that can happen in a circumcision is that the surgeon removes too much skin. It's quite common, and apparently what happened to me. As you grow up and things develop, the body adapts to this...it recruits the skin from your surrounding pubis instead. Which is fine, apart from...well, that's hair-bearing skin. It's not really supposed to be there.

That's what happened to me. And i started getting ingrowns too...nasty place to be getting ingrowns tbh. So in my late 30's (having had enough of dealing with that) I went to a dermatology clinic looking for advice. "Laser hair removal" apparently..."totally safe"...yeah...

...apart from the burns...burns that linger far more than a regular burn does. The scarring. The chronic inflammation. The jangled nerves. The constant sense of discomfort, like my feet are on fire. Suddenly everything in life that I took for granted became a chore. Walking is uncomfortable. Sex, masturbation...even having an erection...all painful. I can't date anymore. I can't even wear jeans anymore. I used to look forward to what life had to bring. Now i go to sleep every night hoping that i don't wake up. Or that i DO WAKE UP to discover that the last 18 months were just a nightmare.

So...yeah...fuck circumcision. It's weird how i went 35 years after the surgery until it found an indirect way to fuck my life. But...here i am.

Sorry you were treated like that...