Do you guys think the ethos behind capitalism and neoliberalism make us more depressive and suicidal?

[ravergirl]

Why are you creating so many diversions and not addressing the main topic?

Because living in a capitalist society has taught them that everything, including conversations, are a competition that they're supposed to "win".

 

[Aap]

First, please do not misgender me with straw man again, please. Second. You grossly misstated my post and did not answer the simple question. Are you suggesting one of the non-capitalistic, communistic, or fascistic cultures you referenced could have created the computer you are typing on? If yes, why didn't they?

 

[VivaldiBR]

Do you think the computer or phone you are typing this on was created by one of those non-capitalistic cultures? Nothing is stopping you from joining one if that is the cure for all that ails you...

Are you seriously playing the "capitalism invented technology" card? Stop, please.

 

[ravergirl]

First, please do not misgender me with straw man again, please. Second. You grossly misstated my post and did not answer the simple question. Are you suggesting one of the non-capitalistic, communistic, or fascistic cultures you referenced could have created the computer you are typing on? If yes, why didn't they?

Misgender you with straw man? "Building a straw man" means setting up an argument that you can easily knock down. It's not about calling *you* a man. Also, your profile doesn't indicate your gender.

 

[VivaldiBR]

Sometimes we have to be humble and admit we are wrong or just move on. Its definitily your case, Aap. There are no begginers in this discussion. We are all beyond this capitalism vs. socialism subject. We are talking about a cultural, social and economy standarts that exist only in capitalism and make people mentaly sick. If your only contribution is defend that system than good lucky. Thats all.

 

[Aap]

If you don't see the issue with words such as chairman or strawman, then I'm not going to argue with you. If you would answer the question, I'd accept that as an apology.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

Are you suggesting one of the non-capitalistic, communistic, or fascistic cultures you referenced could have created the computer you are typing on?

Let's just say for the sake of argument that those other systems could not have created phone or computer.
It doesn't follow from that that those other systems therefore create less wellbeing, less happiness, less meaningfulness for their members.

I am sure that Amazonian rainforest tribes had much higher levels of psychological wellbeing, meaningful relations of trust and reciprocity, social integration, than the crony late industrial capitalist systems of today.

 

[Aap]

After ravergirl answers my question, I'm happy to respond.

 

[ravergirl]

If you don't see the issue with words such as chairman or strawman, then I'm not going to argue with you. If you would answer the question, I'd accept that as an apology.

Oh, please. You're gonna get all gender woke with me? I'm a fucking sex worker activist, I identify as a demi-girl, and I'm sure I've done more actual activist work on gender issues than you have. Fine, you're committing a straw person fallacy. But keep deflecting from everyone else's argument.

But, hey, people are talking about how alienated they feel by our system. And the best way to treat those of us who literally feel suicidal because of the failures of our system is to - scream at them about how they'd be even less happy if they lived in Cuba? Seriously. Just stop.

 

[VivaldiBR]

Let's just say for the sake of argument that those other systems could not have created phone or computer.
It doesn't follow from that that those other systems therefore create less wellbeing, less happiness, less meaningfulness for their members.

I am sure that Amazonian rainforest tribes had much higher levels of psychological wellbeing, meaningful relations of trust and reciprocity, social integration, than the crony late industrial capitalist systems of today.

They sure do!

 

[Aap]

Excuse me? Gender woke? Listen to yourself. You are criticizing someone for Expressing gender preferences and justifying it based on the fact you have done more "activist work" than me????

Stop for a second and tell me this is appropriate.

 

[ravergirl]

Stop for a second and tell me this is appropriate.

You claimed that I misgendered you, when I did not. You compared a well-known logical fallacy that doesn't refer to a specific person to a title like "chairman" that often does apply to specific people. Your entire strategy is to deflect all criticism, build straw arguments that you can knock down, and find a way to be morally offended by the people who criticize you. You're being a troll. And your treatment here is appropriate for a troll.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

But, hey, people are talking about how alienated they feel by our system. And the best way to treat those of us who literally feel suicidal because of the failures of our system is to - scream at them about how they'd be even less happy if they lived in Cuba?

This is exactly the point.

I understand that Aap may want to debate for the sake of debating, because it's fun or whatever, but many people are literally on this forum because of how they have been crushed, alienated and cast aside by a ruthless system of economic exploitation and unfairness.

Maybe it would behoove him/her to take this into consideration before making posts which come across as unkind and unnecessarily antagonistic.

 

[VivaldiBR]

ravergirl and worried_to_death, your comments are pure gold.

 

[Aap]

If you feel my contribution to this forum is one of trolling, then you should pick up a medical or pharmacology text and get back to me. The insults never stop. You also have avoided answering my question. The answer is "of course not." The system you are decrying is the very one which enables you to connect with people all over the world and has deeply enriched every aspect of your life.

I think my answer to OP's question is that the question itself is being framed in a myopic light. Depression and suicidality is a massively multifactorial problem. Do wanton capitalism, greed, and crony capitalism contribute to suicidality? Absolutely! However, they are certainly not the only, nor would I argue, the main cause of it. I asked about East and West German suicide rates, as the rates in East and west Germany were very disparate. Two identical cultures with wildly disparate rates of depression (with the capitalistic culture being much happier and less suicidal) would suggest that capitalism is not the major problem.

Again, capitalism and greed can lead to depression in some, but so can the removal of modern technology, social distancing, lack of communication with the world, lack of food, lack of modern healthcare (as in the indigenous populations you described), and on and on. I don't have a vested interest in capitalism, but for someone who grew up without it, I find the viewpoint that it in itself is bad is...misinformed.

Ascribing so much weight to neoliberalism as a cause of suicidality is like a blind person grabbing an elephant's tail and thinking they have a description and handle on the issue. Again, if you think this terrible awful system is the root cause of your problem, then you are in good shape, have identified the problem, and nothing is stopping you from joining a tribe where you can be completely happy.

 

[ravergirl]

If you feel my contribution to this forum is one of trolling, then you should pick up a medical or pharmacology text and get back to me. The insults never stop. You also have avoided answering my question. The answer is "of course not." The system you are decrying is the very one which enables you to connect with people all over the world and has deeply enriched every aspect of your life.

You don't know that. The USSR had computers. It also, conveniently for your argument, fell apart right before the Internet became widely accessible.

But, as I said when I did reply to your question, you're making an assumption that only Capitalism, Fascism, or Soviet-style Communism can exist.

Let me spell it out for you.

1. The capitalist system we are in is better than Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union
2. The capitalist system we are in causes alienation.
3. It would be better to be in a system that was both better than Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, and that didn't leave so many people in it feeling alienated and suicidal.

All these things can be true. Yelling at us about (1) as an argument against (3) is a straw argument. Nobody is saying (1) is true. Your question assumes that we are.

I think my answer to OP's question is that the question itself is being framed in a myopic light. Depression and suicidality is a massively multifactorial problem. Do wanton capitalism, greed, and crony capitalism contribute to suicidality? Absolutely! However, they are certainly not the only, nor would I argue, the main cause of it. I asked about East and West German suicide rates, as the rates in East and west Germany were very disparate. Two identical cultures with wildly disparate rates of depression (with the capitalistic culture being much happier and less suicidal) would suggest that capitalism is not the major problem.

I disagree. It says that living in a dictatorship is worse than living in a democracy. But the suicide rates in West Germany weren't zero. There is still a problem.

Again, capitalism and greed can lead to depression in some, but so can the removal of modern technology, social distancing, lack of communication with the world, lack of food, lack of modern healthcare (as in the indigenous populations you described), and on and on. I don't have a vested interest in capitalism, but for someone who grew up without it, I find the viewpoint that it in itself is bad is...misinformed.

More straw. Yes, the US in 2020 is more advanced than the Iroquois Confederation in 1491. You get a gold star.

Ascribing so much weight to neoliberalism as a cause of suicidality is like a blind person grabbing an elephant's tail and thinking they have a description and handle on the issue. Again, if you think this terrible awful system is the root cause of your problem, then you are in good shape, and nothing is stopping you from joining a tribe where you can be completely happy.

And even more straw. "I would be happier if was born into an indigenous society" is not the same as "I would solve all my mental health problems caused by living for two decades in this society if I gave up everything and moved to the Amazon".

 

[Gnip]

The discussion is not about capitalism x socialism. Its only about capitalism contradictions as a economic and social system. I dont know whats the best system but i know the actual one is not good at all.

We live in a culture where we're free to air these complaints. Over 600 people jumped into the active volcanic crater of Japan's Mount Mihara in 1936 alone, a rather different society which facilitated depression and mass suicides than the culture we are discussing today.

Sweden had the highest suicide rate of the 1960's with its longstanding Scandinavian model of socialism, and has been historically high due to what we now know may be in large part to what's now been codified as Seasonal Affective Disorder. We can't ignore the possibility of geography in many cases of depression. Today, the Scandinavian countries are much more aggressive with social welfare and mental health service programs, yet SAD remains an issue during long dark winters.

The world's lowest suicide rates are concentrated in the Caribbean islands of the Bahamas, Jamaica, Grenada, Barbados and Barbuda.

In China, suicide is the fifth leading cause of death and accounts for over one quarter of suicides worldwide, mostly concentrated in rural areas (where they are five times more likely to kill themselves than in cities).


https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/suicide-rate-by-country

 

[Aap]

If it is a straw person argument to suggest moving to the amazon would not solve the issues, as you were not born into it, then is it also not the same to suggest moving from capitalism would fix the issue, as you were born into it?

 

[ravergirl]

If it is a straw person argument to suggest moving to the amazon would not solve the issues, as you were not born into it, then is it also not the same to suggest moving from capitalism would fix the issue, as you were born into it?

Oh, I may be hopeless. But that doesn't mean we can't identify some of the causes that led to my problems and try to fix them. But you just want to be a cheerleader.

 

[Samsara]

Absolutely. Our society is structured in a way that it places material value on aspects of experience that should be intrinsically meaningful and rewarding

 

[Gnip]

Sometimes we have to be humble and admit we are wrong or just move on. Its definitely your case, Aap. There are no beginners in this discussion. We are all beyond this capitalism vs. socialism subject. We are talking about a cultural, social and economy standards that exist only in capitalism and make people mentally sick. If your only contribution is defend that system than good lucky. That's all.

Sometimes, it's not about societal systems, but sunlight and darkness, or temperatures, cold and warm, weather and climate.

Back in 1988, then Massachusetts Governor Michael Dukakis was the Democratic nominee for President. After he was defeated by GHW Bush and chose not to run for reelection in 1990, he moved with his wife Kitty to Florida. Why? Kitty Dukakis is a severe depressive, best known for authoring the 2007 bestseller, "Shock: The Healing Power of Electroconvulsive Therapy," describing her experiences and benefits from that treatment beginning in 2001. Prior to that, they moved to sunny Florida in a bid to improve her mental health, and they spend their winter months in Los Angeles these days.

As it happens, ECT failed me completely in 2014 and 2015, but ECT did help Kitty Dukakis, somebody who had access to any form of mental health care available. Two ECT sessions in the mid 1960's also eliminated the depression of the late three term Missouri Senator Thomas Eagleton, the original Democratic VP nominee on George McGovern's 1972 ticket which lost to Nixon. (McGovern would get voted out of the Senate in Reagan's 1980 landslide defeat of Carter, but voters in Missouri who knew Eagleton well voted him to a third term in the upper chamber.)

Depression, suicides and suicidal behavior happen with everybody in all walks of life, regardless of wealth, fame, access to and use of mental health services, and it just doesn't matter in many cases.

Laying a preponderance of these problems at the doorstep of a certain exterior ethos is presumptuous. It's a "Grass is always greener on the other side" supposition. In my personal case, there are some biofeedback modalities I haven't tried and do not have access to which might help me if I could obtain the affordable use of those services, but I have known people in the biofeedback hotbed of Florida who all biofeedback methodologies were useless for.

In November 1996, Roger Callahan, the developer of Thought Field Therapy and history's most experienced mental health practitioner failed with me completely, and I still have my audiocassette copies of his failures with me in my possession.

Concerning my severe case of congenital obstructive sleep apnea (OSA), positive airway pressure for an uninterrupted year and a half only resulted in my developing a bad case of bronchitis which lasted over two and a half months. The late Peter Hauri who published the book, "No More Sleepless Nights" is among those who fell on their faces with me.

Doesn't matter if capitalism, neoliberalism, libertarianism, communism, socialism or some other external social structure was surrounding my personal life, I'd still be screwed.

Maybe a warm sunny climate would help my outlook, but let's remember that most of those who are struggling to enter the United States through Mexico are coming up from Central America, Venezuela and other locations which would be desirable places to live if it wasn't for despotic and negligent governmental regimes, both socialistic and capitalistic.


Regarding "perfect body," "perfect face," the anthropology of physical attraction and desirability transcends species. It doesn't only apply to humans. Great looks can get one treated like royalty or dirt. It can make a boy or girl a target of sexual predation. I had a female friend who was a Penthouse Forum cover girl. Her life was sheer hell. The only good looker in her entire huge high school class in California, her jealous classmates treated her like garbage to knock her down. Worse, her father was an abusive alcoholic, and she inherited his alcoholism. I could have seduced her easily enough, but instead tried to support her sobriety efforts with Alcoholics Anonymous and with some self help literature before she moved away and we lost contact. (By her own admission, it was the bastards in her life that she had dysfunctional relationships with, thanks to the pattern her father set. No, I didn't take advantage of her, even as an arm candy trophy date, and I feel good about that, as I have a conscience I have to live and die with. I learned from newspaper reports after she left my area that she'd fallen off the wagon, getting busted for DWI a couple times. I feel badly about that. She was a nice girl who didn't deserve to be hated for being beautiful.)

Oh hell yeah.

This article's interesting ('Why work more than 15 hours a week?'):

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/...458LCrBpSjjFsecKkEX0Yq9gA1p-h3_q-_arZZHfu4iuw

In a letter to Horace Greeley on 19 May 1848, Henry Thoreau wrote to New York Tribune founder and friend Horace Greeley from Walden Pond: "The fact is man need not live by the sweat of his brow unless he sweats easier than I do, he needs so little."

During the 1980's, I was able to live in a nice new apartment, purchase a new pickup truck, and add money to my bank account, all as a hospital housekeeper working 25 hours a week Monday to Friday, 3PM - 8PM, a job which supplied me with full health and dental coverage. (Reagan happened to be President, but regardless of who occupied the White House, life was good for me in the 1980's.) Later, I retired on disability from Motel 6 as an auditor when the French Accor corporation owned and operated it. Accor considered 15 hours a week to be full time, and that was enough to qualify their employees for full health and dental coverage. I never worked for an employer who required me to work more than 24 hours a week to get full health and dental coverage.

Companies exploit compulsive workaholics who in turn screw up the rest of us, but nobody should need to work more than 15 hours a week to make ends meet, going back at least to 1980, and probably earlier than that.

"Work ethic" is bullshit. Instead, people are too busy trying to earn a living to do any living. I believe capitalism has the potential to offer a solution in the way of competitive employers.

Henry Ford implemented the 40 hour work week, weekends off, all his employees got a car, and he strongly believed leisure was as important as work. At that time, Stalin and communism were bleeding workers dry.

Some things have gotten better. Boys are no longer getting drafted for military combat so they might die in war before they've had a chance to live. The idea you'll get drafted at age 18 so you can die in war before turning 19 seems monstrous to me.

"Draft capital as well as men. Any time you take everything that men has got the same as conscript, boys, there ain't going to be no war." ~ Will Rogers, July 22, 1923

 

[TooConscious]

Our dna is designed to be hunter gatherers living in tribes of about hundred people. Instead we are trying to navigate through this living hell that causes about as much suffering one can withstand before non existence becomes priority, like it has for most of us. Evolution is suicide, I don't care what Bertrand Russell says, the pain this game creates is unreal, yet so real, hence why we suffer because of extremely powerful and hyper intelligent inter-dimensional beings have a petty trait of narcissism. They feed off our suffering.
Just an example say you're sex obsessed and you walk into a tiny room twenty singers have just been at it, you've got all the pheromones, sweat, general atmosphere of sex in that room.
This planet wreaks of pain and suffering. It's like a unimaginably evil s&m club the reptilian annunnaki.

 

[EssenceFocus]

Yes it is a very big reason for the high suicide-rates.

There is no need for perfection. Every person is perfect as he is. There is nothing you HAVE TO reach.
The whole capitalistic system creates many problems on it's own and encourages that some people are more important than others. This doesn't mean communism is better, it had other problems.
But the system will only change if the people, living in this system change.
The "system" of the near future will be without the big importance on money. Everyone will understand their fellows. There won't be such a big hunt for perfection like today. Media will change, medicine and psychatry will change very much. The economy will change drastically. We won't serve the industry, the industry will serve us. Borders and competition between states will vanish, no wars, way lower suicide rates. A bit farther in the future there will a form of planetary government, that isn't meant to think about new lawas and bureaucracy but to coordinate the efforts of all humans to reach collective projects. As time progresses money won't be necessary anymore. And I haven't even mention the impact, what happens when we are halfway trough this process, when open contact with other civilizations begin.

So it's not only depending of capitalism, it's the whole state of mind of humanity, that has to change. There is no artifitial system that will help us to solve all the problems today.
When this will be achieved, there isn't really a need to suicide anymore.

 

[Mellowmood]

Things like individualism, competition, meritocracy, professional success, comparison, perfect life, perfect body, perfect face, perfect relationship, and other cultural imperatives and social problems. Wouldn't the ideal be to change this system that makes us sick? I'm not saying that everyone gets sick for these reasons, but a large majority is.

Things you listed aren't inherently tied to capitalism at its core but most of them are byproducts of a combination of preexisting mentalities that existed before capitalism. Capitalism made shitty things shittier.

 

[IfyouareamanWinston]

I don't know which model is best tbh. I think that the heart of man is darkness though.

No matter the economic model people always seek to exploit. Those that are exploited will always suffer.

We as a species are so far past the point of survival that the exploitation has become disgusting to us but it's simply a biological program to survive.

As much as we advance we are limited by our blueprint.