Do you believe in fate ?

[Bauhaus]

Even when I was a little kid, I just couldn't imagine being an adult, having to go to work, have a relationship and then slowly your body would deteriorate and eventually you would die from some horrible disease.
I'm now an adult guy and seeing how my live went in the last 10 years, ctb will be inevitable.
So I'm a strong believer of fate and think ctb was always just a matter of time.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I do but I also believe fate has been conspiring against me.

 

[mahakaliSS_MahaDurga]

Even when I was a little kid, I just couldn't imagine being an adult, having to go to work, have a relationship and then slowly your body would deteriorate and eventually you would die from some horrible disease.
I'm now an adult guy and seeing how my live went in the last 10 years, ctb will be inevitable.
So I'm a strong believer of fate and think ctb was always just a matter of time.

Sadly, I feel the same. I swear this forum is the only distraction I have, it is paradoxically preventing me from living in the here and now, and at the same time preventing me from dying.

 

[Meditation guide]

Sadly, I feel the same. I swear this forum is the only distraction I have, it is paradoxically preventing me from living in the here and now, and at the same time preventing me from dying.

Same here. Mostly it feels good not to have things bottled up any more on this subject.

 

[Giraffey]

I'm no mathematician but for fun, I recently modelled the events in my life in terms of a Markov chain. In essence, that involved recording each of the major positive and negative events in my life and calculating the probability at each step of either a positive or negative outcome (the next event being positive or negative). What I found was that the more negative events occurred, the less likely it became that a positive event would occur. It became less likely for a positive event to occur because of the previous accumulation of negative events, and the number of steps (positive events) that would be required in order to 'undo' or counteract the implications of the previous negative events. In simpler language, the deeper into the well I fell, the more effort it would take to climb out.

Of course, it was more philosophical than scientific, but that to me is the definition of fate (subjectively speaking). I pulled it out recently to illustrate to somebody the difference between suicide as a result of depression and suicide as a result of life's circumstances. There is always the chance that my life will improve; I desperately wish that it would, but I cannot see it ever happening now. I think the damage is too extensive.

 

[WornOutLife]

Yes, kinda. I've been feeling the same since I was a teenager and now I hate life more than ever so I don't imagine myself being +50 years old (I'm 32 now)

 

[Meditation guide]

What I found was that the more negative events occurred, the less likely it became that a positive event would occur. It became less likely for a positive event to occur because of the previous accumulation of negative events, and the number of steps (positive events) that would be required in order to 'undo' or counteract the implications of the previous negative events. In simpler language, the deeper into the well I fell, the more effort it would take to climb out.

Yes and does it work the other way too? The more positive events, the more likely more positive events would occur?
I can look back and see that one drastically positive event in my life led to a prolonged sequence of positive events.
At some point something big would happen to change everything.

 

[Giraffey]

Yes and does it work the other way too? The more positive events, the more likely more positive events would occur?
I can look back and see that one drastically positive event in my life led to a prolonged sequence of positive events.
At some point something big would happen to change everything.

I suspect that it would. At the heart of it, I think that certain kinds of negative events create fewer opportunities for positive events to occur and more opportunities for negative events to occur, whereas certain positive events 'open doors' so to speak, and create more opportunities for positive events to occur. It's just a theory of course, more a philosophical one than a sound scientific principle, but it seems to apply to my life and it serves as a rational underpinning for fate as a metaphor.

 

[greebo6]

Definitely

 

[Meditation guide]

, whereas certain positive events 'open doors' so to speak, and create more opportunities for positive events to occur

You are on to something. It needs a name like The Peter Principal or something catchy. Or a way to succed in life only not as hokey as The Secret. Trajectories.

 

[Giraffey]

You are on to something. It needs a name like The Peter Principal or something catchy. Or a way to succed in life only not as hokey as The Secret. Trajectories.

That made me laugh, especially "The Secret Trajectories". By a spooky coincidence, I have actually just started writing a self-help book. Don't forget the subtitle though, needs to be something suitably slick such as "How To Conquer Fate And Rewrite Your Destiny". The world deserves to know the powerful secrets of the Peter Principle. Fancy teaming up MG? I smell a Pulitzer prize coming our way...

 

[SN or RB]

I suspect that it would. At the heart of it, I think that certain kinds of negative events create fewer opportunities for positive events to occur and more opportunities for negative events to occur, whereas certain positive events 'open doors' so to speak, and create more opportunities for positive events to occur. It's just a theory of course, more a philosophical one than a sound scientific principle, but it seems to apply to my life and it serves as a rational underpinning for fate as a metaphor.

absolutely agree. Negative events have an effect on the mind which can begin to perceive things more negatively, at which point being available to positive possibilities becomes less likely. And conversely positive events can have positive implications on availability to possibilities. But that being said, one positive event can be much more powerful than many negative events. I've seen this is usually true. Like if something positive happens during a negative streak, it can greatly offset the affect of negative things that have happened. Whereas a negative event has a harder time greatly effecting a positive streak.

that being said, I used to believe in fate almost completely. But I believed we had to act in accordance with positive fate to bring about the positive possible outcomes. I personally have failed many times when it came to upholding my end of the bargain. My personal takeaways would be; be open to positive fate, I think that's real. When something good happens, act accordingly to make the positive effects remain and multiply.

 

[Meditation guide]

I personally have failed many times when it came to upholding my end of the bargain. My personal takeaways would be; be open to positive fate, I think that's real. When something good happens, act accordingly to make the positive effects remain and multiply.

I look at lost opportunities in my past. Ones had I taken my life would have been much better. There is a high price for not acting on things when you should.

This may be another of life's crossroads for me.

 

[SN or RB]

I look at lost opportunities in my past. Ones had I taken my life would have been much better. There is a high price for not acting on things when you should.

this is my problem. I lost amazing opportunities. It used to be that I could find others, but the older I got the fewer 'others' there were

 

[Meditation guide]

I lost amazing opportunities.

I got so used to not having good things happen in one of my downward trajectories that when an amazing opportunity presented itself, I was paralyzed with anxiety and fear so I couldn't act on it.

 

[SN or RB]

Dammit. I know that feeling exactly. I know amazing things can happen again, but it's like sometimes it would take so much effort before that happens to put one in a place where they could actually receive the opportunity. And that's the part that seems impossible right now. And I don't want to be overly preachy, but honestly, it probably is possible for all of us. It would just take so much focus and work.

I got so used to not having good things happen in one of my downward trajectories that when an amazing opportunity presented itself, I was paralyzed with anxiety and fear so I couldn't act on it.

But who knows, if we can put so much focus and work into anything, and all of us here have done that, then maybe we could also put focus and a lot of work into the things that would put us in a place to be able to act on a real opportunity when it dose arise?

 

[LastFlowers]

No. I believe in bad luck and good luck, and how bad luck often leads to worse luck while good luck often leads to even better luck.

 

[Ghost2211]

Yes, since I don't really believe in free will. We have "choices" but most of them are not options in the true sense. The one I like to use as an example is choosing to pee in the toilet. I could choose to just pee in my bed, but in a profound way it's not really a choice. My body and brain wouldn't really let me just lay there and wet myself when I could get up and use a toilet. Choice is an illustration, and if we don't have free will then we likely have fate.

 

[SN or RB]

I can understand that. But do you believe we can intervene at all?

 

[Meditation guide]

Bad things just happen to you. Good things require you to reach out in some way to take them.

 

[SN or RB]

I agree with that. Maybe there are also some things we can do to mitigate the bad when it happens.

 

[Meditation guide]

I agree with that. Maybe there are also some things we can do to mitigate the bad when it happens.

I don't know what kind of bad things you've had happen but the things I've had happen didn't work with or respond to anything I could have done. I'm really great at fixing things when they can be fixed, after having lots of practice.
I've talking about losing my home in a disaster, having cars which were carefully and expensively restored destroyed,
on and on, things that were disasters. No one would believe me if I listed the disasters that have happened to me.
I've lost two homes suddenly in disasters. I spend a lot of energy trying to block it all out.

 

[Ghost2211]

I can understand that. But do you believe we can intervene at all?

Not really, how often do you want to do something for no reason at all? Something makes you want to. Your body making a chemical reaction, social needs or consequences, survival, various forms of gratification. There is alway a reason, and those reasons are for other reasons. It's all just a chain reaction of forced actions. Hell, I'm even writing this because my brain wants me to express an opinion.

 

[Meditation guide]

My brain wants me to eat some chocolate Ben and Jerry's.

 

[Giraffey]

Yes, since I don't really believe in free will. We have "choices" but most of them are not options in the true sense. The one I like to use as an example is choosing to pee in the toilet. I could choose to just pee in my bed, but in a profound way it's not really a choice. My body and brain wouldn't really let me just lay there and wet myself when I could get up and use a toilet. Choice is an illustration, and if we don't have free will then we likely have fate.

An excellent example of how social conditioning reduces free-will. You could technically pee in your bed, as an act of free-will, but there are various costs associated with that action that make it less likely that you will exercise that right. Then there is the classic paradox of how can free-will exist when one act of free-will can deprive another person of their free-will? For example, it cannot be your free-will to lock somebody in a cage and simultaneously that person's free-will not to be locked in a cage unless neither of you acts upon that free-will.

We all have freedom of choice, but the options are often more limited than we think and the costs associated with each choice are not fixed. I have a choice to keep fighting, but the psychological cost of doing so is much higher than it was before several negative events happened. So there will come a point where it is more likely than not that I will stop fighting because the cost of doing so has become too high. That, to me, is what you may call fate or perhaps destiny, in a metaphorical sense at least.

 

[Ghost2211]

An excellent example of how social conditioning reduces free-will. You could technically pee in your bed, as an act of free-will, but there are various costs associated with that action that make it less likely that you will exercise that right. Then there is the classic paradox of how can free-will exist when one act of free-will can deprive another person of their free-will? For example, it cannot be your free-will to lock somebody in a cage and simultaneously that person's free-will not to be locked in a cage unless neither of you acts upon that free-will.

We all have freedom of choice, but the options are often more limited than we think and the costs associated with each choice are not fixed. I have a choice to keep fighting, but the psychological cost of doing so is much higher than it was before several negative events happened. So there will come a point where it is more likely than not that I will stop fighting because the cost of doing so has become too high. That, to me, is what you may call fate or perhaps destiny, in a metaphorical sense at least.

Exactly, that is why choices are an illusion. The cost is so high that your brain and/or body won't allow the action. It's fun to think we can do as we please, but in the end we can't. Telling ourselves we have freedom of choice makes us feel better about our liner reality.

 

[Meditation guide]

the psychological cost

I'm fighting every day with my health problems and it's driving me crazy.

 

[SN or RB]

I don't know what kind of bad things you've had happen but the things I've had happen didn't work with or respond to anything I could have done. I'm really great at fixing things when they can be fixed, after having lots of practice.
I've talking about losing my home in a disaster, having cars which were carefully and expensively restored destroyed,
on and on, things that were disasters. No one would believe me if I listed the disasters that have happened to me.
I've lost two homes suddenly in disasters. I spend a lot of energy trying to block it all out.

My god, I'm so sorry to hear that. I didn't mean all of that in any more than an abstract way.

 

[peacechoice]

Even when I was a little kid, I just couldn't imagine being an adult, having to go to work, have a relationship and then slowly your body would deteriorate and eventually you would die from some horrible disease.
I'm now an adult guy and seeing how my live went in the last 10 years, ctb will be inevitable.
So I'm a strong believer of fate and think ctb was always just a matter of time.

Legit. This is what I was thinking. I could never see my mom as old and she died recently in her early 40's. Fortunately or unfortunately. I guess I don't see myself as an adult and working so CTB will be my only option I guess.

 

[Giraffey]

Exactly, that is why choices are an illusion. The cost is so high that your brain and/or body won't allow the action. It's fun to think we can do as we please, but in the end we can't. Telling ourselves we have freedom of choice makes us feel better about our liner reality.

Another slightly different but relevant example is in lucid dreaming. In dreams you have the ability to effectively do as you please since it's just your imagination, a simulation of reality; but interestingly, what you find is that you end up struggling to behave differently than you would in normal life. It's very difficult to walk through walls because a logical part of your brain says "huh, but walls are solid!", it's difficult to fly unless you also adopt some motion that you associate with flying like a superman pose or 'air swimming'.

So even when we do have a greater degree of choice, our instinct isn't to just behave like a kid in a candy shop, we're still bound by certain rules that have been drilled into us from a young age. One of my favourite metaphors is the magician's choice. When you pick a card in a magic trick, the card you pick makes little difference to the outcome - it's simply the illusion of choice.

Whether or not embracing the reality of limited choice is a good or bad thing is definitely up for debate.

I'm fighting every day with my health problems and it's driving me crazy.

And I have no doubt that you despise the ignorance of people who just assume that if you simply adopt a more positive attitude then somehow your health problems will improve and/or you suddenly won't struggle with them as much. Such ignorance assumes that it's your choice to suffer or to 'let it get to you', I'd like to see how such positivity warriors would cope to walk in your shoes for a day.