do we give pro-lifers too much of a hard time???

[checkouttime]

So i'm interested on peoples opinions on what they think a pro lifer actually is. From reading the other thread i found myself agreeing with what a few people said things like this

"A true pro-life advocate would want to improve services and support for those who are vulnerable and would by nature be pro-choice, understanding that a suicidal person might take their life regardless of the help offered, not behave in a way that would cause more suicides."

another mentioned another way of trying to help suicidal people, i feel its how a professional with actual experience would think

On the other hand, if we leave the choice to the desperate or suffering person and we try to help him, without putting pressure or stress on him, there is a good chance of convincing him to change his mind in such a way. temporary or permanent.

i actually agree with both these comments and think that trained professional who are pro-life and genuinely want to help i have no problem with, and if people want help then i would definetly choose this type of person.

so i have been attacking pro-lifers but i have come to realise it isn't actually the genuine pro-lifers i have a problem with. but the there is the other group of people, the ones who set up FB and twitter pages and think there a professional because one of their kids CTB. they mock members and want to see people on this site suffer i think its actually disrespectful to even mention these people as pro-lifers as we all know they really aren't pro life. they just want revenge and someone to blame for there failings. they are revenge seekers not pro lifers.

or have members seen another type of people and what they regard as pro-lifers? I haven't actually seen pro lifers on this site (i think someone mentioned there were a few) but i have seen the 2nd type of people i mention, people after revenge, i'm not going to see them as pro lifers anymore myself, the evidence is there for everyone to see. they are revenge seekers they are definetly not around to 'help' others.

or is there another group of people that can be classed as pro-lifers?

 

[Amumu]

Nonsense. The terms were used because they were taken from the issue of abortion, where the opposition pro-life - pro-choice is paramount.

I don't see why we wouldn't see the opposition between pro-life and pro-choice for the issue of suicide.

Either you're pro-life, either you're pro-choice. Don't invent vocabulary just because you find it nice.

 

[Mr2005]

Yes

 

[UKscotty]

Being pro-life is fine. I am also pro-life in the sense that I believe everyone has a right to life.
What I dont appreciate is people telling me that I must live when I want to die. I am a consenting adult, to end my life is my choice alone.

 

[checkouttime]

Nonsense. The terms were used because they were taken from the issue of abortion, where the opposition pro-life - pro-choice is paramount.

I don't see why we wouldn't see the opposition between pro-life and pro-choice for the issue of suicide.

Either you're pro-life, either you're pro-choice. Don't invent vocabulary just because you find it nice.

these groups against SS aren't pro life though, they wish people harm and just want revenge. that isn't pro life and like it was pointed out

"A true pro-life advocate would want to improve services and support for those who are vulnerable and would by nature be pro-choice, understanding that a suicidal person might take their life regardless of the help offered, not behave in a way that would cause more suicides"

this group of people don't fall into that category whatsoever, they openly wish members harm and their are threads to prove it.

i have no issues with pro-lifers they want to help,like i said the other group aren't pro-lifers and shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as trained professionals. the trained professionals don't set up websites and want like of their mates to look good. there just bitter and twisted and want revenge. they are looking to blame someone else for their own shortcomings.

 

[Makko]

Nah, they'll manage. We, on the other hand...

 

[mostlycloudy]

Thank you for posting - it was an interesting read. I am sad to hear that there are people looking for revenge and that they are going after people that are already hurt and broken. Easy targets I guess.

 

[checkouttime]

Being pro-life is fine. I am also pro-life in the sense that I believe everyone has a right to life.
What I dont appreciate is people telling me that I must live when I want to die. I am a consenting adult, to end my life is my choice alone.

I don't feel a genuine pro-lifer would tell you to live, i feel they would try to help, but they wouldn't actually force things on you. I mean there a groups that claim to be pro life but i just think they are after revenge, certainly these FB groups etc stop SS and what not. I feel the below statement is definetly true. I would be more inclined to think that a true pro lifer could really be classed as a trained professional

A true pro-life advocate would want to improve services and support for those who are vulnerable and would by nature be pro-choice, understanding that a suicidal person might take their life regardless of the help offered, not behave in a way that would cause more suicides."

 

[HopelessFight]

Nonsense. The terms were used because they were taken from the issue of abortion, where the opposition pro-life - pro-choice is paramount.

I don't see why we wouldn't see the opposition between pro-life and pro-choice for the issue of suicide.

Either you're pro-life, either you're pro-choice. Don't invent vocabulary just because you find it nice.

I think presenting the issue on a black/white level might be a bit too simple.

I believe euthanasia for mental illnesses should be possible worldwide, but only when all possible treatment options (within reason) have been tried and there is no prognosis for improvement in the foreseeable future. I respect people's decision to commit suicide, but I also believe people should try other options such as treatment first. Does that make me pro-choice or pro-life?

But indeed, these terms have just been taken over from the US abortion debate. When I hear the word "pro-life", I mainly think of a religious, conservative person who opposes abortion and euthanasia but is (ironically enough) almost always in favor of the death penalty.

The term "pro-life" on this forum is generally used by people opposing this forum and are advocating to take it down. The issue with these people is they don't realize what they're doing is counter productive. If they want to prevent suicides, they should help improve the mental health system instead.

 

[checkouttime]

Thank you for posting - it was an interesting read. I am sad to hear that there are people looking for revenge and that they are going after people that are already hurt and broken. Easy targets I guess.

I'd say the same thing applies to them aswell in regards to hurt and vulnerable, but we aren't seeking revenge for our dead children on here though. we help them instead so they don't have to suffer anymore, but ultimately its their choice and they decided they wanted out of here its upto them to make that decision,, no one here encourages anyone. . i wouldn't say everyone is vulnerable on here though, genuine suicidal members would obviously know that not everyone s vulnerable because they are suicidal. not all suicidal people sit in a corner crying alday like is stereotypical thought of how suicidal people are. some members on here go to work etc. i mean then you have people will terminal illness, but it doesn't mean they are vulnerable though. i mean some might people might be sure, but not everyone though.

I mean if i was a dead kid and i was looking down and saw my parent "helping" (use that term loosely as they don't actually help) random strangers, but the i'm 6 feet deep or a pot of ashes whatever as they cudn't be arsed with me, i would be so proud....NOT. i'd probably want to CTB again!! I can't imagine that would be a nice thing to experience, you would feel even more unwanted than when you was alive. I can totally see why some people would CTB if they have parents like that.

 

[9BBN]

I don't feel a genuine pro-lifer would tell you to live, i feel they would try to help, but they wouldn't actually force things on you. I mean there a groups that claim to be pro life but i just think they are after revenge, certainly these FB groups etc stop SS and what not. I feel the below statement is definetly true. I would be more inclined to think that a true pro lifer could really be classed as a trained professional

A true pro-life advocate would want to improve services and support for those who are vulnerable and would by nature be pro-choice, understanding that a suicidal person might take their life regardless of the help offered, not behave in a way that would cause more suicides."

The pro-life position values life over autonomy. So in abortions, the pro-life position is to ban abortions, and with suicide, to ban suicide.

"but they wouldn't actually force things on you" --> that's a pro-choice position. For example, in opposition, the pro-life position is to support involuntary commitment to psych wards. That is forcing things on you.

It's important we all use the same terminology so nobody is confused. If someone supports involuntary commitment or criminalizing suicide, they're a pro-lifer. If they believe we have a right to choose death, they're pro-choice.

 

[Amumu]

these groups against SS aren't pro life though, they wish people harm and just want revenge. that isn't pro life and like it was pointed out

"A true pro-life advocate would want to improve services and support for those who are vulnerable and would by nature be pro-choice, understanding that a suicidal person might take their life regardless of the help offered, not behave in a way that would cause more suicides"

this group of people don't fall into that category whatsoever, they openly wish members harm and their are threads to prove it.

i have no issues with pro-lifers they want to help,like i said the other group aren't pro-lifers and shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as trained professionals. the trained professionals don't set up websites and want like of their mates to look good. there just bitter and twisted and want revenge. they are looking to blame someone else for their own shortcomings.

You don't get my point, I meant your definition of pro-life was nonsense.

Being pro-life means you want people to live whatever the circumstances and whatever their will, period.

 

[Anonymous_A]

This place be like; Anyone who don't take n/sn is a pro-lifer.









(take yo SN peeps) lol ;)

 

[WatermelonMel]

pro-lifers give us too much of a hard time

 

[Amumu]

This place be like; Anyone who don't take n/sn is a pro-lifer.









(take yo SN peeps) lol ;)

Exemplify.

 

[DutchDude26]

Most pro-lifers (anti-choice) are religious. They believe that death is more then it actually is. A lot of them are deep down afraid too die themselves (god, hell/heaven). Most religious are deep down very uncertain if when they die they go to heaven or not. Its fear of hell. Fear of a bad afterlife. Life is holy to them cause life is certain and we should prolong death as long as we humanly can no matter the Cost.

I don't think they have truly bad intentions. They just don't have the empathy to understand that some people just dont wanna fucking life. They don't believe / care that some people just don't wanna live anymore (for whatever reason). Religious people in general have a hard time with understanding people with different views i think. Most of my family is deeply religious. Most are good people but they just don't understand. I stopped trying. Waste of time and energy.

 

[Pluto]

I think presenting the issue on a black/white level might be a bit too simple.

Yes, when we are talking about being a part of an internet tribe with a political agenda (decriminalising suicide), there is a risk of losing a lot of important nuance.

There are some genuinely good people who would believe in supporting others who are seeking care and compassion in a time of psychological distress, or bolstering funding for mental health services. It is not appropriate to label them harshly as this is a completely reasonable thing in itself.

Conflating the above good-hearted people with the vast armies of brain-dead religious tribalists (or those motivated by revenge) whose extremist positions - no euthanasia regardless of the level of hopelessness/suffering - are antithetical to ours detracts from the nuance of the debate. We could just as easily call these people anti-choice rather than pro-life, as they feel entitled by the will of their fictional Gods to dictate what happens to other people and their bodies.

The fact that society is today largely dominated by hard-line pro-life positions is a reflection on humanity's slow, incremental progress from barbaric inhumanity to a more compassionate world. It is frustrating, and there can be a temptation to believe that there's something to be gained by debating with pro-lifers. There isn't.

 

[NeverReallyHere]

I get what you mean: "pro-life" people aren't actually pro-life in the literal sense because their preference for simply controlling others and taking away their autonomy rather than creating support systems to help them ends up actually costing more lives in the long run. However, for the purpose of these sorts of discussions it's easier to use this moniker to describe these sorts of people since most of us know what it means. Maybe think of "pro-life" as an ironic label...

 

[mandyjohnuk]

Pro life is OK with me. I don't have to like it. But I respect it. Simple as.

 

[GreenMile]

Pro Life is still a subjective term, very much open to interpretation and, to me at least, suggests the choice to live or die is something they would feel entitled to police...

I do think that EI and SS have achieved vastly more harm reduction/life preservation than any moral crusader or supposed expert just because there is no agenda other than open discussion.

 

[motel rooms]

The pro-life position values life over autonomy. So in abortions, the pro-life position is to ban abortions, and with suicide, to ban suicide.

"but they wouldn't actually force things on you" --> that's a pro-choice position. For example, in opposition, the pro-life position is to support involuntary commitment to psych wards. That is forcing things on you.

It's important we all use the same terminology so nobody is confused. If someone supports involuntary commitment or criminalizing suicide, they're a pro-lifer. If they believe we have a right to choose death, they're pro-choice.

No, we definitely don't give people who force things on others too much of a hard time.

 

[TheAmazingCriswell]

Most pro-lifers (anti-choice) are religious. They believe that death is more then it actually is.

They also believe that life is more than it actually is. Where do you think this entire "life is sacred and must be preserved at any cost" rhetoric comes from? Life has no intrinsic value, unless you believe in an intelligent creator.

 

[FuneralCry]

I see a pro lifer as someone who insists we must live no matter what even if it is against our wishes. This view is held by society (or at least where I live), denying the right to die and placing emphasis on quantity of lives rather than quality. I see the right to die as important, we did not ask to exist so we have no obligation to stay alive. We should be able to make our own choices about when to end our life as only we are experiencing what we are going through. Society needs to take a more pro choice approach and this would lead to a more compassionate society. It is cruel expecting people to suffer for decades. I do not think we give them too much of a hard time as I am strongly pro choice.

 

[checkouttime]

The pro-life position values life over autonomy. So in abortions, the pro-life position is to ban abortions, and with suicide, to ban suicide.

"but they wouldn't actually force things on you" --> that's a pro-choice position. For example, in opposition, the pro-life position is to support involuntary commitment to psych wards. That is forcing things on you.

It's important we all use the same terminology so nobody is confused. If someone supports involuntary commitment or criminalizing suicide, they're a pro-lifer. If they believe we have a right to choose death, they're pro-choice.

yeah the stop SS and fix the26 groups aren't pro-life they are just seeking revenge, they try to cause distress, manipulate and mock members on here as everyone has seen in the threads. they aren't pro lifers as no group who wishes another person to suffer whilst ctb could every be pro life, and it is absolutely laughable that any one could even think that, or for them to even attempt to claim they are.

I'm not trying to change terminology? I do feel people should be able to choose what they want to do though, hence the site being pro choice. I'm just pointing out there is a difference in groups. Like i mentioned i haven't personally seen any pro lifers on the forum, i have just seen the revenge groups who have attacked members

No, we definitely don't give people who force things on others too much of a hard time.

i agree with that. its so laughable how these revenge seekers get annoyed when they get abused back. its like the pot calling the kettle black. thing is bullies don't like being bullied. i see a very simple solution, if they don't like it, they could leave the site and won't have to put up with it. If they want to stay put up and shut up.i say lol

Most pro-lifers (anti-choice) are religious. They believe that death is more then it actually is. A lot of them are deep down afraid too die themselves (god, hell/heaven). Most religious are deep down very uncertain if when they die they go to heaven or not. Its fear of hell. Fear of a bad afterlife. Life is holy to them cause life is certain and we should prolong death as long as we humanly can no matter the Cost.

I don't think they have truly bad intentions. They just don't have the empathy to understand that some people just dont wanna fucking life. They don't believe / care that some people just don't wanna live anymore (for whatever reason). Religious people in general have a hard time with understanding people with different views i think. Most of my family is deeply religious. Most are good people but they just don't understand. I stopped trying. Waste of time and energy.

so my mum was religious. but when my dad died the family decided to let him die despite the fact he could have been saved. he had suffered for years and didn't want to carry on any longer. I must admit at the time i cudn't get my head round it and wasn't very happy with the decision. but i eventually got over it and realised it was the best thing as he wasn't suffering any longer

You don't get my point, I meant your definition of pro-life was nonsense.

Being pro-life means you want people to live whatever the circumstances and whatever their will, period.

ah rite i get you now. yeah them type of groups/people are totally different to the groups who just want revenge, they just want to help themselves

 

[CleosAsp]

Pro-life: suicide and euthanasia are always wrong and must be prevented.

Pro-choice: a person hasthe right to decide whether they live or die.

Pro-death: people must die.

FixThe26 and Stop SS: assholes who need to take a good look in the mirror and own their own shit.

 

[checkouttime]

Pro-life: suicide and euthanasia are always wrong and must be prevented.

Pro-choice: a person hasthe right to decide whether they live or die.

Pro-death: people must die.

FixThe26 and Stop SS: assholes who need to take a good look in the mirror and own their own shit.

fixture26 and stop SS won't do that their too busy getting likes of their FB mates. they need realise that no type of revenge is going to bring their dead kids back, its too fucking late to start making the effort now. i think they actually like coming on this site more than the genuine members. I can only imagine how there mental health has suffered since their kid died, maybe they should grab some SN for a later date just in case, were here to help after all lol.

I don't understand how someone could be pro death, surely they would be dead themselves lol

 

[9BBN]

yeah the stop SS and fix the26 groups aren't pro-life they are just seeking revenge, they try to cause distress, manipulate and mock members on here as everyone has seen in the threads. they aren't pro lifers as no group who wishes another person to suffer whilst ctb could every be pro life, and it is absolutely laughable that any one could even think that, or for them to even attempt to claim they are.

I'm not trying to change terminology? I do feel people should be able to choose what they want to do though, hence the site being pro choice. I'm just pointing out there is a difference in groups. Like i mentioned i haven't personally seen any pro lifers on the forum, i have just seen the revenge groups who have attacked members

I think what you're missing, and others here are trying to explain to you, is that "stop SS" and FT26 are definitionally pro-life. They insist that euthanasia and suicide are not a human right. Now, there's more than one way to act on that belief. For example, a politically active pro-lifer might support legislation to end abortion and euthanasia. A more casual pro-lifer might support things like involuntary committment and believe nobody should ctb. Or, more hostile pro-lifers like "stop SS" and FT26 might seek to shut down pro-choice discussion forums like this and ironically call for the suicide of mods who apparently "aren't dead yet."

These are different shades of pro-life. We give "stop SS" and FT26 a hard time because they're shitty people. If we give other pro-lifers a hard time, it's because their attitude is to force life on everyone and value it over autonomy. It's analogous to why women who want an abortion would give pro-lifers a hard time.

 

[checkouttime]

I think what you're missing, and others here are trying to explain to you, is that "stop SS" and FT26 are definitionally pro-life. They insist that euthanasia and suicide are not a human right. Now, there's more than one way to act on that belief. For example, a politically active pro-lifer might support legislation to end abortion and euthanasia. A more casual pro-lifer might support things like involuntary committment and believe nobody should ctb. Or, more hostile pro-lifers like "stop SS" and FT26 might seek to shut down pro-choice discussion forums like this and ironically call for the suicide of mods who apparently "aren't dead yet."

These are different shades of pro-life. We give "stop SS" and FT26 a hard time because they're shitty people. If we give other pro-lifers a hard time, it's because their attitude is to force life on everyone and value it over autonomy. It's analogous to why women who want an abortion would give pro-lifers a hard time.

they aren't pro-life though, they openly mock member trying to ctb on here saying they hope they are suffering. thats not pro life and thats a fact. they may claim to be pro life but everyone knows they just want revenge. you cannot encourage people to ctb because they talked to your dead son and claim to be pro life, you cannot dox members who then ctb and be pro life, and i don't care what anyone says they are simple facts and the proofs in the threads. just because they claim to be something, doesn't mean they are and the proof is there for everyone to see they aren't and just want revenge. even the pro lifers don't like these people as they give them a bad name.

fixture 26 and stopp SS can 'claim' to be whatever they want, but the fact is they just want revenge and the proof is there for all to see in how they behave.

I wished a person dead and to be suffering while ctb, but i'm pro life. how fucking stupid does that sound. the real pro lifers don't harass, hound and mock suicidal people as they want to 'help' suicidal people these groups do not want to help as everyone knows who's suicidal and even the real prolifers what they do will not in one bit 'help' and its just plain simple revenge for their dead children.

I don't think there are different shades of pro life and agree with what another member said

"Being pro-life means you want people to live whatever the circumstances and whatever their will, period"

fix the 26 and stop SS don't do that, its in the threads how they behave, doxxing, harassing,mocking members to name a few traits, that isn't pro life and i do not see how anyone can claim it is. thats just bitter people wanting revenge. big difference in my eyes. they aren't trying to force people to live we have seen them encouraging people to die, so its laughable to think they are in anyway pro-life.

 

[9BBN]

they aren't pro-life though, they openly mock member trying to ctb on here saying they hope they are suffering. thats not pro life and thats a fact. they may claim to be pro life but everyone knows they just want revenge. you cannot encourage people to ctb because they talked to your dead son and claim to be pro life, you cannot dox members who then ctb and be pro life, and i don't care what anyone says they are simple facts and the proofs in the threads. just because they claim to be something, doesn't mean they are and the proof is there for everyone to see they aren't and just want revenge. even the pro lifers don't like these people as they give them a bad name.

fixture 26 and stopp SS can 'claim' to be whatever they want, but the fact is they just want revenge and the proof is there for all to see in how they behave.

I wished a person dead and to be suffering while ctb, but i'm pro life. how fucking stupid does that sound. the real pro lifers don't harass, hound and mock suicidal people as they want to 'help' suicidal people these groups do not want to help as everyone knows who's suicidal and even the real prolifers what they do will not in one bit 'help' and its just plain simple revenge for their dead children.

I don't think there are different shades of pro life and agree with what another member said

"Being pro-life means you want people to live whatever the circumstances and whatever their will, period"

fix the 26 and stop SS don't do that, its in the threads how they behave, doxxing, harassing,mocking members to name a few traits, that isn't pro life and i do not see how anyone can claim it is. thats just bitter people wanting revenge. big difference in my eyes. they aren't trying to force people to live we have seen them encouraging people to die, so its laughable to think they are in anyway pro-life.

I feel you. What you're arguing is correct; the way they act is not really pro-life at all.

To clarify, both pro-lifers and pro-choicers believe in the right to life. The only difference between them is that the latter recognizes the right to death too. There is also a difference between the right to life and the respect of life. You've shown me with evidence that FT26 does not respect the lives of those on SS by doxxing and harrassing members. This is not the same as not believing in the right to life, and it's certainly not the same as believing in the right to die.

They are only called pro-life because they oppose the right to die.

By analogy, in abortion discussions, a common criticism of pro-lifers is that while they oppose abortions, they don't support the social services required to help mothers and their children who are struggling financially. In other words, their position on abortion is pro-life, but after the baby is born, they suddenly don't care about the baby's life any more. So they are criticized for not really being "pro-life". But these people are still pro-life, and they identify themselves as such.

Maybe it's unfair to call them "pro-life" because they are so hypocritical. The thing is, though, they're not pro-choice. If you want you can call them "anti-choice" if you feel they aren't even "pro-life", but this would be confounding the right to life with the respect of life. The point of these labels is simply to recognize the motivating belief: are abortions a right, and is suicide a right?

 

[checkouttime]

I feel you. What you're arguing is correct; the way they act is not really pro-life at all.

To clarify, both pro-lifers and pro-choicers believe in the right to life. The only difference between them is that the latter recognizes the right to death too. There is also a difference between the right to life and the respect of life. You've shown me with evidence that FT26 does not respect the lives of those on SS by doxxing and harrassing members. This is not the same as not believing in the right to life, and it's certainly not the same as believing in the right to die.

They are only called pro-life because they oppose the right to die.

By analogy, in abortion discussions, a common criticism of pro-lifers is that while they oppose abortions, they don't support the social services required to help mothers and their children who are struggling financially. In other words, their position on abortion is pro-life, but after the baby is born, they suddenly don't care about the baby's life any more. So they are criticized for not really being "pro-life". But these people are still pro-life, and they identify themselves as such.

Maybe it's unfair to call them "pro-life" because they are so hypocritical. The thing is, though, they're not pro-choice. If you want you can call them "anti-choice" if you feel they aren't even "pro-life", but this would be confounding the right to life with the respect of life. The point of these labels is simply to recognize the motivating belief: are abortions a right, and is suicide a right?

yes, i don't want people to die, i'm not going start claiming that i'm pro life though as that would be absolutely stupid and just embarrassing really to even go there!!!

pro lifers are pro life, pro choice are pro choice and the two other groups are just simply after revenge, regardless of how much they try to sugar coat it. like i said even the true pro lifers don't like them.

take for instance how they harassed bullied and mocked the member rue, wishing her hurt and pain when she was ctb. thats just a plain simple case of a person wanting revenge. her crime....to speak to one of the members children. now even after this they still continue to harass bully and mock members, so they aren't even satisfied with getting revenge they want more.

also rue89 had a family, you would think that a person who had suffered because there own child ctb, wouldn't be trying to encourage another person child to do the same as they are "pro life" , but they aren't they are after revenge and thats why that doesn't bother them. a true pro lifer would want to help people no matter what, as another member mentioned.

like i said what they claim to stand for, would be just as laughable for me to say i'm pro life aswell. people out for revenge etc always try and cover up their real motives and blame others for their own short comings.