Do I have blood on my hands?

[Snake of Eden]

I had a friend who I met online as we both were suicidal. She wanted to jump but had difficulty going through it. I taught her about N and helped guide her how to buy it. I felt I was doing the right thing. I supported her decision to ctb. Now that she is gone I started feeling some guilt and sadness about the role I played to bring about this outcome. Without me she would have never been able to know how to acquire N. I am the cause of this outcome and it makes it feel like I am a complacent in her demise and that I have blood on my hand. Did I do a bad thing by assisting somebody to ctb? Am I a killer?

 

[Angst Filled Fuck Up]

This is where it gets tricky. Despite the forum name I don't engage in actual ctb discussions because it's super personal and there's a liability factor too if you get involved, whether legal or just purely from a conscience standpoint. My feeling is basically we all know why we're here, and I hope people actually improve, but at the end of the day if you do the research on your own and do what you feel you must then fair play but the catching of the bus is on you.

 

[BeansOfRequirement]

What's done is done, if you feel bad about it you can learn from it and change your behavior in the future. Figure out why you think you acted wrongly. I don't think having other people convince you that you acted correctly or incorrectly will help in the long term.

I did some things I'm not proud of, and some things that makes me feel disgusted and ashamed, almost everyone does. Getting dragged down by guilt is in no case going to make us better people, but guilt could be an important starting point when it comes to getting more in touch with what we believe is good action.

 

[Amumu]

No you're not, had she jumped from a small building she would have probably ended up in severe physical pain, lost the use of her legs, etc.

And she'd have found how to get it without your help anyway.

 

[FuneralCry]

But if she is suicidal, she likely would have ctb even if you didn't teach her about N. maybe just a less peaceful method. You did not force her to ctb, it was her choice.

 

[phoenixx]

You are definitely not a killer. She was already suicidal, you just showed her a different and more peaceful method. With or without you, she would have ctb in some way. Please don't feel bad or guilty about it. Remember, she is at peace now and isn't suffering any longer.

 

[Under The Graveyard]

I've known 2 people who have ctb, and I did nothing to stop it, knowing it was about to happen. It was their choice and I let them make their own decision, as I hope people will let me when my time comes.

 

[Chiisai]

Heeey. There are many factors to assess. First, was the person old enough according to law, to make their own decisions? Next, was it the person's own volition to do the deed? If both of these are true then by law, you are not accountable. Also, in practicality, do you believe your suggestion was best for the person than their initial decision? If so, be at ease knowing you helped someone.

 

[Feeding Pigeons]

I had a friend who I met online as we both were suicidal. She wanted to jump but had difficulty going through it. I taught her about N and helped guide her how to buy it. I felt I was doing the right thing. I supported her decision to ctb. Now that she is gone I started feeling some guilt and sadness about the role I played to bring about this outcome. Without me she would have never been able to know how to acquire N. I am the cause of this outcome and it makes it feel like I am a complacent in her demise and that I have blood on my hand. Did I do a bad thing by assisting somebody to ctb? Am I a killer?

You're not a killer, thats for certain. Even if you have blood on your hands, I'm certain theres plenty of people in her life that were complacent in her suffering. The difference is you were brave enough to give her a real choice.
For what its worth, shes not suffering anymore. I would've appreciated a friend like you.

 

[deflationary]

:(

No, you didn't do a bad thing. Suffering is just easier for us to ignore than death. Our compassion for suffering is lacking. It's often easier for us to live with someone suffering by our side than not having them be there at all. But that's just our selfish perspective. From their perspective, it's the suffering that's the tragedy, not nonexistence.

You helped her put an end to her suffering, but it was her free choice. She did what she thought was the best for herself and that should be respected.

 

[Peel_the_Banana]

I had a friend who I met online as we both were suicidal. She wanted to jump but had difficulty going through it. I taught her about N and helped guide her how to buy it. I felt I was doing the right thing. I supported her decision to ctb. Now that she is gone I started feeling some guilt and sadness about the role I played to bring about this outcome. Without me she would have never been able to know how to acquire N. I am the cause of this outcome and it makes it feel like I am a complacent in her demise and that I have blood on my hand. Did I do a bad thing by assisting somebody to ctb? Am I a killer?

I think you are negotiating through the 5 stages of grief. You have also mentioned that you are autistic, so as a more "logical" thinker with some tendency to be a bit black and white, understand that you are grappling with a lot of grey. I don't think there is a complete logical path that is going to get you to understand and accept the many shades of grey that you are dealing with, such that you can come to a peaceful conclusion and clear your mind. What might be "easiest" for you to do, however, is to focus on reasoning through her decision to choose (in some manner).


For example:

Black & White | Blood on your hands
Did you constantly insist that drinking N is the only way to get / feel better?
Did you make her feel bad about who she is, thereby having her think the lowest of possible lows about herself?
Did you ever at any point express any anger or disapproval with her about her decision / hesitation to suicide?
Did you coax her into drinking N with the chant of chug, chug, chug??

Or

Black & White | Her Choice, Not Your Fault
Did you discuss all topics (life-death, happy-sad, etc.) with equal focus and interest?
Did you try to make her feel better about herself, providing solely positive supportive statements regarding her self image?
Did you allow her to change her mind and respect the times when she stated that she wasn't ready despite the ongoing--even sometimes annoying--self-conflict that one goes through to get to the SI breaking point?
Did you even in her last moments remind her that she can stop at any time (as appropriate) according to her explicit, expressed desires?


Method change does not mean that she would not have eventually figured out how achieve her end result. All you did was discuss another option. In the end she chose to use it.


P.S. - Your thought process is touching upon the anti-choicer or pro-lifer argument that restricting access to information will make one less likely to suicide. That viewpoint suggests that one with no options would continue on, living a miserable life to old age. This is simply a faulty, unrealistic, bad faith argument as one's future decisions are simply unknowable. It depends on the faulty premise that everyone believes life is a gift and that it is wrong to suicide. It's like arguing whether or not god actually exists, or, if you believe he/she does exist its like arguing that god punishes humans, god massages life events, etc. All of this is just simply unknowable; and thereby any attempt to argue it relies on some kind of faulty premise.

 

[motel rooms]

Did I do a bad thing by assisting somebody to ctb? Am I a killer?

If sharing ctb-related info with someone who's decided that their life is no longer worth living makes you a killer, then all of us are killers

 

[Death is beautiful]

If you're a killer for sharing ctb-related info with someone who's decided that their life is no longer worth living, then all of us are killers

and this site is for murders

 

[chocolatebar]

and this site is for murders

I was already murdered by society. Just trying to officialize it

 

[Makko]

Even though this doesn't automatically imply moral error, you did play your part. The big dilemma of "pro-choice" is that you can't really be neutral. You can formally declare a netural standpoint but you are never neutral in practice. By reaching out to someone, providing support and information and encouraging "choice" you exert an influence on them, compared to a situation where they're only surrounded by normies who condemn the whole concept of suicide. Behavioral economics call this nudging. Had you not existed and she would be only surrounded by pro-lifers, she would be nudged away from suicide, whereas having a more liberally minded close confidant nudged her towards it. Receiving unlikely support for "making your choice" lowers the mental barrier to choosing death, where most people claim this is not a choosing matter to begin with.

Nudging is exactly that, and can be overridden by a determined will in either direction, but when you're wavering, small details make a big difference. Everything we say and do makes its waves. Pro-lifers try to stop suicides in an attempt to evade the exact feeling you are experiencing -- "if nobody died, I don't have to feel guilty". People are quick to reject responsibility for others' pain, but death is different because it haunts in a way that pain doesn't. This is why the easiest for yourself is to keep someone alive, reject responsibility for their problems and keep feeling good about yourself. If you take a pro-choice stance you go against this and shoulder the role of potential, indirect death influencer. It's part of the package and something you must make peace with. The only genuine non-hypocritical alternative is to change your stance on suicide itself.

 

[mentalhealthfighter]

No, you just showed them the way. They walked the walk.

 

[Fragile]

Hugbox aside, you definitely played a role. But it's impossible to know if she would've find about N on her own after some research. I wouldn't say that you have "blood on your hands" as you put it, however, the certainty, peacefulness and reliability of N may have given her some extra motivation that she didn't have with jumping. There's also the fact that many women gravitate towards these methods when available.

This is the reason why I stopped giving advice about many of these substances, despite probably hundreds of hours of research, I don't want to feel like I had something to do in changing someone's decision.

 

[Meliæ]

I had a friend who I met online as we both were suicidal. She wanted to jump but had difficulty going through it. I taught her about N and helped guide her how to buy it. I felt I was doing the right thing. I supported her decision to ctb. Now that she is gone I started feeling some guilt and sadness about the role I played to bring about this outcome. Without me she would have never been able to know how to acquire N. I am the cause of this outcome and it makes it feel like I am a complacent in her demise and that I have blood on my hand. Did I do a bad thing by assisting somebody to ctb? Am I a killer?

You did absolutely nothing wrong. You helped her to save herself from all this suffering. If someone did this for me, I would be eternally thankful. She is much better where she is now, not suffering, at peace.
Life is not sacred. Death is natural. Being able to choose to go should be normal.
You didn't kill anyone. You helped.

 

[fox_wannabe]

Am I a killer?

You helped somebody in darkness and despair to leave gracefully. That is a best thing we can do when there is no other hope. Some of us here are going to end their lives and unfortunately this is how it is. You helped her by making it less stressful for her to go. People who go but do not have means go through terrible turmoil. You saved her from standing on the bridge, trembling from fear and despair. She did buy N and decided for herself. World is br00tal and there is no other way sometimes than up.
Please forgive yourself as you did nothing wrong. You did not make her ctb. The world did.

 

[deadverysoon]

I had a friend who I met online as we both were suicidal. She wanted to jump but had difficulty going through it. I taught her about N and helped guide her how to buy it. I felt I was doing the right thing. I supported her decision to ctb. Now that she is gone I started feeling some guilt and sadness about the role I played to bring about this outcome. Without me she would have never been able to know how to acquire N. I am the cause of this outcome and it makes it feel like I am a complacent in her demise and that I have blood on my hand. Did I do a bad thing by assisting somebody to ctb? Am I a killer?

no - the health system failed and so the government.

its just escaping.

 

[Meliæ]

Euthanasia is legal in many countries even for mental illnesses. Many people do that everyday.
From the bottom of my heart thank you for not having been hypocrite, for not telling her that everything would have been OK and for just letting her go in dignity. Dignity has no price. You've been very courageous and she has been lucky to know you. Please forgive yourself. You did absolutely the best for her

 

[Darkmoon Queen]

Unless you forced her to take it, no.

There might be a grey area if she wasn't in her right mind. I suppose at that point, the level of your involvement and the amount of time the entire process took would factor in (i.e. did she consider this over a period of time rather than taking it in a fit of pique).

With your help or without, this person acquired N, something Interpol monitors like a hawk. There have been home invasions over it. You can't hold yourself responsible when they demonstrated this level of determination.

 

[ScaredToLive]

No, you did literally nothing wrong

 

[orangepotato]

Not at all. It was her decision, not yours. If she didn't have the N she probably would have chosen another method and it would've been a far more painful death.

 

[UseItOrLoseIt]

If you think you've killed her you don't respect her decision. Do you respect her decision? If so, leave her to her peace. She would want peace for you too.

 

[xLosthopex]

If you're a killer, then the majority of us on this site are also killers
It's a ctb discussion forum, a place to discuss and find out info on how to ctb
The laws in most countries around assisted ctb are very arbitrary, it's very hard to say where to draw the line
Legally speaking, many of the things we say and discuss on this forum could be considered assisting someone to ctb, but that doesn't make it morally wrong, at least from the pro-choice perspective(ie the ethos of this site and, I assume, the vast majority of the members)
I am extremely grateful to those on here who've provided me with info on how to obtain and carry out certain methods, and to right to die activists like Philip Nitschke etc. and I would be furious if the people in my life/society in general were to point the blame at those people instead of accepting and respecting that it was MY choice and no one else should be held responsible

 

[NeverReallyHere]

There's no way for you to possibly know what would have happened to your friend if not for you: perhaps she would have CTB'd sooner if she hadn't even met you; perhaps she would have injured herself horribly and spent the rest of her life as a quadriplegic. All you're doing right now is driving yourself crazy trying to answer a question which cannot be answered. And even if you could definitively answer "no," you'd still feel guilty anyway, because you have a conscience, because you can't just turn off your emotions, and because guilt defies rationality anyway. All you can do is try to channel your guilt into something positive if you're able: think about what your friend would want for you and how you could live as a good a life as possible for her. You should also think about deleting this thread, since it's possible it could be used as evidence against you, should someone decide to hold you legally liable for what happened to your friend (and I'm sure that's one thing she wouldn't want for you).

 

[W3akCr3atur3]

I like this quote quite a lot.
You can't help all suicidal people recover. She most likely would've CTBed anyway.
Dying isn't the worst thing that can happen to somebody, especially if they want it.
You just helped her with what she was doing on her own by hew own choice.
You're not the reason she was suicidal at the first place, you aren't the reason she decided to CTB at the end.
I wish you the best and I wish her eternal peace

 

[Meliæ]

Moreover, she would have done it anyway. She could have died horribly, jumping, hanging, died in fear and umbearable pain...
Was you did is beautiful and right

 

[Midgardsorm]

Hello, Zero.

I'm sorry you're feeling this way. I really took time to post here because I'm not in the best shape to reply this. But I cannot leave you alone with this thought without sharing my believes.

I hope it helps, but I frankly don't know if it will.

Some users like Makko and Ready2DieToday shared a perfect insight on the matter in hands.

What you're experiencing is exactly the feeling that the prolifers do not want to experience.
The feeling of guilt.

Let's put facts about her in the table first:
She was already suicidal, she was living a life that she didn't want to live, she did not think her life could improve and she thought that death was the solution for her problems.

You helped her, in a way you offered information. If this is killing, it's a merciful killing.

Like in a movie where the character B is suffering, dying and asks the character A who has a gun, to spare him from the torment and kill him.
So A shoots B and kills him.
It was difficult, but B wanted. A was merciful.

Legally, it's a problem, but I'll tell you why.

It's legally a problem because people do not want to experience the feeling of guilt. They can know a person is suffering and know that the possibilities of that person stops suffering is next to none, but they choose to avoid the action, because action, bring feelings.

There is a moral dilemma that is teach in some schools:

There is a train on highspeed going towards 5 workers on the railroad, you can move the train to other railroad where there is only 1 worker if you press a button.
Press it and you kill one worker, do not press it and 5 workers die.

Why is this a dilemma? Isn't obvious that is better to spare more lives?

No. Because this puts people in a situation where they cannot avoid the feeling of guilt.
It's a very difficult feeling, a burden. Living with it takes strength and courage.

There is a Hero and there is a God.

A God is all knowing, all powerful, omnipresent and always good.

Being a God can't be too difficult. You can do anything and every action you take will always be the right one.

Being a Hero on the other hand is complicated.
You're human, your strength is limited, your mind is but the mind of a man.
Even so, you need to make choices. Choices that will save lives, cost lives. You might even need to kill some to save some.
And you will have to live with the feeling, that's what makes you a hero, you will have to sleep with this heavy burden.

That makes you a villain to some too. To the people you had to be against it.

In this case, the sanctimonious people that think that life can always be good. That there is always another choice. Even when the person in question don't even want to live anymore.

To those people, you are a villain.
But to her, the one who is most important to you, the one who you really cared about, you are a hero.

You are a hero for her.

Think about it.